The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: kmb501 on February 18, 2015, 09:37:11 AM
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How should I cope with these problems on a budget? I really don't make enough money to see a psychologist. Trying to cope with it on my own, even though it seems like a small problem, often yields mixed results. People sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem.
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Google and see if there is a support group in your area. I know attending might trigger the social anxiety but it is worth a shot. There may be other ASD services available in your area. Your doctor might have leads.
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Sometimes employers provide employees with free counseling services. You could check with HR and see if you have access to any counseling/psychologist services.
You might also check with your community center to see if there's any groups you can get involved with. I'm not an expert or anything, but I think a lot of times practice and exposure can help. It gives you a framework of familiarity and experience in similar situations.
Another approach might be to schedule a visit or two with a psychologist and let them know that you don't have much of a budget, so you are looking for activities that you can do on your own. Maybe you can set up some sort of schedule where you track your progress and keep a journal and only come in to see the psychologist once every six months or so to check in and get feedback.
I would encourage you to continue working on growing in this area. If only so that you can develop a good network of friends. If you FIRE, you might not be forced to interact with people on a regular basis, but people need friends. They help make our lives a better place. IMO, the purpose of FIRE is not to avoid the world, it's to enjoy your life.
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Born today my child self would probably be diagnosed as 'on the spectrum' as well. For me learning by doing (largely) did the trick over the years. Learn to small-talk a bit like you would learn a foreign language. If its a problem for you make an effort to practise unimportant phone calls to be better prepared for important ones (it used to be a mystery to me when it was my turn to speak...).
I never had anxiety but I supposed controlled exposure to situations triggering such anxiety without high stakes might help as well. Maybe somebody else can offer guidance backed with more experience?
I don't second the advise to completely shun social contacts even after FI. It might be tempting but your hard earned skills would decline fast. MMMs concept of voluntary discomfort applies here. You may not be comfortable installing heating in a crawl space but you'll feel great sitting on your couch afterwards. All by yourself, with enough of your favourite foods in the fridge to repeat the same menu five times in a row and with enough of your favourite books and dvds for some serious binge reading/viewing. :-)
Practise your outer/social personality while giving your inner introvert enough room to breathe and relax.
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1) Read this book I recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Helping-Child-Who-Doesnt-Fit/dp/1561450251/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424280798&sr=8-1&keywords=helping+the+child+that+doesn%27t+fit+in The exercises in it will help you with reading social cues.
2) Check out this free webinar from two guys with Asperger's, I haven't looked at their stuff but might be a good resource: http://www.onlinemeetingnow.com/register/?id=icgwjemxu0
3) Ask your doctor about prescribing a low-dose beta blocker for stressful situations (used for stage fright)
4) Find or start an Asperger's support group (try looking on Meetup.com? or find an online group?)
5) Try a gluten-free dairy-free diet and vitamin D 5,000 IU/d
6) Exercise daily
7) Again, try Toastmasters - designed tp help people with fear of public speaking, would also help you make friends
8) Try yoga, meditation or tai chi - they all calm the brain.
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Which leaves group (3) -- people like you. Sounds great, except people like you lack the skills necessary to have a friendship, so the only thing you'll be able to do is commiserate on how miserable life is, probably making both of you even worse off than if you had never entered into the "friendship".
So given that that is the landscape for "friends", you have two choices:
1. Chase some platonic ideal of "friendship" for your entire life, while being perpetually betrayed and disappointed; or
2. Accept that you will never have friends and make the best of it.
BTW, I ABSOLUTELY disagree with this poster! My adult son has Asperger's and he has several good friends. People with Asperger's are totally capable of having and being good friends. They have some extra social challenges, but they can be overcome. And other people on the spectrum can make excellent friends because they understand you. My son's best friend in college and room mate for 3 years had much worse Asperger's than my son, and they got along great. They shared similar interests, tolerated each other's quirks, and had a great time together.
What you have going for you is an AWARENESS of what the problems are. Once my son received his diagnosis as an adult, it really helped him to start to understand what was going on in his social interactions, and he can work consciously to overcome and discuss with us some of the issues that arise. You too can educate yourself and start to practice things that will improve your social interactions.
Also, do consider the one poster's recommendation about seeing if vocational rehab in your area has help to offer you.
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So given that that is the landscape for "friends", you have two choices:
1. Chase some platonic ideal of "friendship" for your entire life, while being perpetually betrayed and disappointed; or
2. Accept that you will never have friends and make the best of it.
It sounds like you've met some pretty terrible people, Cathy.
I hope the OP will continue to be open to new experiences and new people. Isolation might only entrench the difficulties they're facing.
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Chasing "friends" and "happiness" can just lead to more unhappiness in the long run, so you'll want to consider carefully whether that is actually what you want to do.
If you have the kind of social issues I'm contemplating from the OP, the "friends" you encounter will fall into three groups:
1. People who want to get something from you,
2. People who feel sorry for you, and
3. People with similar issues as yourself.
The people in group (1) will seem like great friends so long as you're giving them what they want, which might be money, but much more commonly is a service such as advising them on their business prospects, or helping them with their projects. So long as you're providing value to them, they'll ignore your shortcomings, and perhaps even defend you against other people. But you'll find it's impossible to keep providing value forever. Eventually their business will be successful, their project will be complete, or they'll just find somebody else to provide the value they need. These "friendships" always end in some form of betrayal, where the person eventually determines that they can extract more value by sacrificing you rather than continuing to extract value from you.
The people in group (2) are "charity-minded" types who derive personal enjoyment from helping other people. They'll notice you lack the ability to participate in society normally and they'll make it their personal goal to "help you". At first, this seems great, but eventually you'll notice that the relationship is based on pity rather than fondness. It is a very awkward feeling. You want to be treated as an equal, not an object to feel sorry for. People like this will eventually get bored and move to their next project, so these relationships are always fleeting; they might only last a few weeks or in extreme cases several years, but the person will eventually disappear and you'll be left wondering why you dealt with them when they clearly never liked you, but just saw you as a project that made them feel good.
Which leaves group (3) -- people like you. Sounds great, except people like you lack the skills necessary to have a friendship, so the only thing you'll be able to do is commiserate on how miserable life is, probably making both of you even worse off than if you had never entered into the "friendship".
So given that that is the landscape for "friends", you have two choices:
1. Chase some platonic ideal of "friendship" for your entire life, while being perpetually betrayed and disappointed; or
2. Accept that you will never have friends and make the best of it.
I respectfully submit that (2) is the far better way to conduct your life. Holding onto a conception of the impossible leads you to feel inadequate relative to other people and makes you think you are "missing something" in life. If, however, you accept that that world is just not part of your reality, you can focus on the things that really matter, like reaching financial independence, and subsequently retirement, after which you can escape from the misery of the outside world.
Even if your 'three kinds of people' assumption were true what exactly makes you think that people with ASD or anxiety issues can't be friends? What skills are they lacking? Smalltalk and parties? Well, that's precisely what they are not looking for in their social contacts anyways... No the OP in all likelihood is never going to be the popular one and is never going to have 500plus facebook friends (or shall I say 'friends'?). But every D&D group and every other closely knit circle of nerds there ever was is proofing you wrong.
Also, anyone without ASD and anxiety thinking that he has more than 10 friends who would really be there if push came to shove is in for a big disappointment should it ever come to this.
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The biggest and most important piece of advice anyone will ever give you:
Ignore Cathy.
What a bunch of nonsense. We have no way of knowing how "autistic" (a suspect term in itself) the OP is. And even if the OP is VERY autistic, it's still terrible advice.
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I'm not sure how helpful it would be to your issues, but MoodGym might be worth a shot: https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome. Basically a free self-directed online program that can help you learn coping strategies for anxiety and depression.
I second everyone who recommends trying to get yourself out there, to go to situations where you might be a little uncomfortable, because it can be good practice. But don't be too hard on yourself-- give yourself some time to relax and recharge too.
I also thought Susan Cain's Quiet was a good read, to learn about how our culture is really set up to prize extraversion.
And finally, if this is really interfering with your life, I think it would be worth it to pursue therapy when you have the means to do so. The rest of the advice is good too, but I don't think anything can replace the help of a good therapist. So I'd try to make that a priority if your financial circumstances change.
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Does the school board you work for have a counseling plan of any sort? Mine does and we can get 8 sessions for "free." My boyfriend is a substitute teacher and he qualified for them too, so it's not just permanent contract teachers here. You could probably find out if your employer has this service on their website or on the union website.
Good luck. You seem to be very genuinely trying to problem solve, but it's not easy for sure.
I have to say that it's very brave to substitute teach while experiencing social anxiety, so remember that if you can face a class full of kids, you have a lot more moxy than a lot of people.
And I have to echo that I know a lot of people on the spectrum who have good friendships.
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Assuming you have reasonable copays for a general practitioner, make an appointment and talk to them about these issues. They can prescribe anxiety medications.
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Southern Alabama free clinic:
http://alabamafreeclinic.org/
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Southern Alabama free clinic:
http://alabamafreeclinic.org/
I checked this site; there was no mention of mental health services.
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Southern Alabama free clinic:
http://alabamafreeclinic.org/
I checked this site; there was no mention of mental health services.
In the community partners section of the website it does list a partnership with the Alabama Department of Mental Health. It's possible that the clinic or that government department may have a way you can get access to low or no-cost mental health services. It's definitely helpful to see a therapist on a regular basis, they have tools and methods of helping with anxiety disorder as well as autism spectrum disorder.
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How should I cope with these problems on a budget? I really don't make enough money to see a psychologist. Trying to cope with it on my own, even though it seems like a small problem, often yields mixed results. People sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem.
I can't really comment on the social anxiety (other than to agree that toast-masters is a good way to get used to speaking in public).
Do you have hobbies or interests that could put you in a group situation where topics of conversation are slightly easier to come by?
Is there media that resonated with you in terms of explaining unwritten social rules?
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If your conditions are causing problems on the job, then you may be eligible for help (i.e., free services) from your state's division of vocational rehabilitation. They can pay for any services that might help you obtain or retain a job, including psych services and psychiatric help for medicine checks. All states have these services. I can look them up for you if you tell me your state and a general area you live in. Large states are divided by zip codes and you can easily find the nearest office by providing your zip on their websites. If you have no job, then head over to the federal building where the SSA office is and get some help from them in filling out the paperwork. Don't let them tell you they cant help... all states are required to provide help and community outreach.
Once a client of vocational rehabilitation, shop around for the best therapists, then request that DVR help with or cover the whole cost of the supportive need for help while you are in school. if you pm me i can try and find right office
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I find that benadryl (once you get used to the drowse) helps take the edge off. Its also super cheap. Other than that you got to be comfortable with yourself (never ending struggle).
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Mental health services should be including in all health insurance policies moving forward, including Medicaid. Depending on your plan you will have a Co-Payment for each session.
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Mental health services should be including in all health insurance policies moving forward, including Medicaid. Depending on your plan you will have a Co-Payment for each session.
I live in a state that did not expand Medicaid, so I am not eligible.
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Damn Cathy, I don't even know what to say to that post. No. Just no to everything in that.
kmb501: Not sure where you are on either spectrum, but I'm on both a bit as well. First, don't beat yourself up over it. Not everyone has to be a social butterfly. Our current state of identifying everything as a disorder just makes people feel like there's something wrong with them. Think of it more like having things you'd like to improve about yourself. Everyone has them.
I second doing group activities. Take whatever interests you already have, or might like to pick up, and find a way to make it a social activity. Don't worry about talking to everyone and being outgoing. I take martial arts (off and on) and am really quiet. Same currently with sailing lessons. Sometimes I'll show up and not converse with a single person except the teacher. But after a while you just naturally find a person or two you click with a bit and you'll open up to each other. Let it be natural, but you do have to get out there and give yourself the opportunity to have it happen. If you feel awkward after you leave, try to ignore that and not let it stop you from going back. To me that's the hard part.
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Also, anyone without ASD and anxiety thinking that he has more than 10 friends who would really be there if push came to shove is in for a big disappointment should it ever come to this.
Ha ha, nice.
I'm not sure how helpful it would be to your issues, but MoodGym might be worth a shot: https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome.
That looks cool!
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I've not been diagnosed with anything, but I would describe myself as extremely introverted and naturally socially retarded.
Things that have helped me:
1. Find someone you can ask about specific situations. I somehow managed to find an awesome husband. He often tells me after we have been somewhere that I should or shouldn't have said something that I did or didn't. I still have to take every case one by one, but I try to make him explain the rule why that is. For example: Never say anything nasty about anyone's children unless someone else you are with said it first and it seemed OK. Someone at work's child had a baby recently and I couldn't give a crap about the fact that it's still alive and capable of having its photo taken. However, I dutifully say how sweet it looks and how happy she must be. I'm not sure why she must be so happy (it's not like she had the baby and she has plenty of grandchildren already) but it's what everyone else does. Anyway, to cut a long story short, it may take some time but if you can find ANYONE who can explain things to you, it will help a lot.
2. Make your own list of rules. This will involve a lot of trial and error. Some of mine:
- No one is ever asking for your honest opinion about how they look. Even if they say they are.
- Always tell people that what they are doing already is the right thing to do.
- If you are talking for longer than three minutes without letting anyone else talk, you need to shut up for three minutes per person in the conversation.
3. Watch high school films and sitcoms. Sitcoms are especially good if they have a laugh track because you know that when everyone's laughing, someone did something wrong. It also gives you cultural capital with other people.
4. I share almost no interests with my colleagues and most people my own age. Mostly you can get by on:
CW: Did you watch [TV SHOW] last night?
Me: No, was it any good?
CW: Have you read [BOOK]?
Me: No, I heard it wasn't as good as the last one in the series, though.
CW: Have you seen [FILM]?
Me: No. What's it about?
They will then tell you all about it and you can say: "That's interesting" "I didn't know that" "How funny" "I wonder what will happen next week"
5. Don't go to parties. I try sometimes and hate it again every time. Six people in a purely social setting or twelve in a focused setting is my maximum.
6. Go to interest-focused events. I get on better when I am doing something with people, not just "being social". Taking classes or going to free lectures is great because you always have something non-confrontational to talk about. E.g. I went to a bicycle maintenance class (mustache points!) and I swear I was the chattiest one there even though I hate talking to strangers because I just said: "That's a nice bike" "Do you cycle a lot?" or "Did it take you long to cycle here?" to everyone I had to talk to and then they started talking about their bike. I hate 'going for a drink' with someone, but an acquaintance has invited me 'for a drink' to ask my advice on a project they are working on. I know I will enjoy this because there is no ambiguity in what I am supposed to do.
7.Read fiction. Modern fiction is best, but anything will help. It gives you an insight into other people's minds - I always have problems remembering that other people don't think the same way I do. I'm a particular fan of detective stories, because I enjoy the puzzle and because there's always a lot of discussion about motivation.
8. With people I know better, I do tend to say things like "Do you want the short answer or the long answer?" when asked about something I am really interested in, and if they say the long answer then that's what they're going to get! I also say "Please let me know if I've told you enough", and I really mean that people should tell me if they are bored, but they mostly don't. I suppose they are being polite, but maybe they are just fascinated! I wouldn't do this with a stranger, though.
9. Don't worry too much about having lots of friends. I moved somewhere new nearly six months ago and I have two friends here. That is fine by me! They are excellent friends, and my husband has lots more friends so I can have non-committal social interaction through him if I need it.
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90% of the time when I read a post that is unbelievably out of touch with reality I look at the poster name and see "Cathy". At this point I'm forced to believe that this person is trolling the forum. Ignoring her stupidest post and just focusing on the first one:
"The good news is that you're already 28 and thus potentially already financially independent or at least close to retirement."
Yes, we're obviously all working towards financial independence here but in what universe can you assume that a 28 year old is financially independent or at least close to retirement?
Are you actually serious when you post? Or are you trolling?
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So I know everyone disagrees with Cathy but I was didn't think her answer was wrong.
"The people in group (1) will seem like great friends so long as you're giving them what they want, which might be money, but much more commonly is a service such as advising them on their business prospects, or helping them with their projects. So long as you're providing value to them, they'll ignore your shortcomings, and perhaps even defend you against other people. But you'll find it's impossible to keep providing value forever. Eventually their business will be successful, their project will be complete, or they'll just find somebody else to provide the value they need. These "friendships" always end in some form of betrayal, where the person eventually determines that they can extract more value by sacrificing you rather than continuing to extract value from you."
I had a friend like this. She was always copying everything I did and it did end badly. Ive also had a few coworkers like this.
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No, I don't think Cathy is trolling, but I do think she is bizarre.
Sometimes I think Dostoyevsky modeled his underground man after her.
People of all stripes can make friends and find a social niche. Those on the spectrum are not doomed to live alone and have no friends. That's ridiculous.
Regarding the use of Benadryl, I wouldn't recommend that. Aside from the danger of self-medicating in general, it's looking more and more like long term use of Benadry could cause dementia in old age.
Good luck, OP in finding some low cost help.
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So I know everyone disagrees with Cathy but I was didn't think her answer was wrong.
"The people in group (1) will seem like great friends so long as you're giving them what they want, which might be money, but much more commonly is a service such as advising them on their business prospects, or helping them with their projects. So long as you're providing value to them, they'll ignore your shortcomings, and perhaps even defend you against other people. But you'll find it's impossible to keep providing value forever. Eventually their business will be successful, their project will be complete, or they'll just find somebody else to provide the value they need. These "friendships" always end in some form of betrayal, where the person eventually determines that they can extract more value by sacrificing you rather than continuing to extract value from you."
I had a friend like this. She was always copying everything I did and it did end badly. Ive also had a few coworkers like this.
I'm sure people like that exist, but she seems to be defining the entire concept of friendship by these groups. I've been reading some of her old posts and she's is the most out of touch, cynical person in the universe.
She seems to assume that when each human being turns 30 there is no reason that they shouldn't already have multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars saved up. She also has determined that she will never have a relationship (too much of a liability) and it's clear what her view is on friendship (friends are not worth it). She also lives off of 2 to 3 transactions per month. She is clearly very good with money, but sounds like she lives a terrible lonely existence. Like someone who took the "mustachian" concept way, way too far. But whatever!
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There are quite a few books on tactics to help cope with social anxiety disorder: mindfulness/meditation, cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. Perhaps you could check a few out of the library and see which one fits best with your personality. Perhaps check out a forum or online community for people with social anxiety. Best of luck to you!
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So I know everyone disagrees with Cathy but I was didn't think her answer was wrong.
"The people in group (1) will seem like great friends so long as you're giving them what they want, which might be money, but much more commonly is a service such as advising them on their business prospects, or helping them with their projects. So long as you're providing value to them, they'll ignore your shortcomings, and perhaps even defend you against other people. But you'll find it's impossible to keep providing value forever. Eventually their business will be successful, their project will be complete, or they'll just find somebody else to provide the value they need. These "friendships" always end in some form of betrayal, where the person eventually determines that they can extract more value by sacrificing you rather than continuing to extract value from you."
I had a friend like this. She was always copying everything I did and it did end badly. Ive also had a few coworkers like this.
I'm sure people like that exist, but she seems to be defining the entire concept of friendship by these groups. I've been reading some of her old posts and she's is the most out of touch, cynical person in the universe.
She seems to assume that when each human being turns 30 there is no reason that they shouldn't already have multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars saved up. She also has determined that she will never have a relationship (too much of a liability) and it's clear what her view is on friendship (friends are not worth it). She also lives off of 2 to 3 transactions per month. She is clearly very good with money, but sounds like she lives a terrible lonely existence. Like someone who took the "mustachian" concept way, way too far. But whatever!
Ohh ok. That's a little different then.
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I've not been diagnosed with anything, but I would describe myself as extremely introverted and naturally socially retarded.
Things that have helped me:
1. Find someone you can ask about specific situations. I somehow managed to find an awesome husband. He often tells me after we have been somewhere that I should or shouldn't have said something that I did or didn't. I still have to take every case one by one, but I try to make him explain the rule why that is. For example: Never say anything nasty about anyone's children unless someone else you are with said it first and it seemed OK. Someone at work's child had a baby recently and I couldn't give a crap about the fact that it's still alive and capable of having its photo taken. However, I dutifully say how sweet it looks and how happy she must be. I'm not sure why she must be so happy (it's not like she had the baby and she has plenty of grandchildren already) but it's what everyone else does. Anyway, to cut a long story short, it may take some time but if you can find ANYONE who can explain things to you, it will help a lot.
2. Make your own list of rules. This will involve a lot of trial and error. Some of mine:
- No one is ever asking for your honest opinion about how they look. Even if they say they are.
- Always tell people that what they are doing already is the right thing to do.
- If you are talking for longer than three minutes without letting anyone else talk, you need to shut up for three minutes per person in the conversation.
3. Watch high school films and sitcoms. Sitcoms are especially good if they have a laugh track because you know that when everyone's laughing, someone did something wrong. It also gives you cultural capital with other people.
4. I share almost no interests with my colleagues and most people my own age. Mostly you can get by on:
CW: Did you watch [TV SHOW] last night?
Me: No, was it any good?
CW: Have you read [BOOK]?
Me: No, I heard it wasn't as good as the last one in the series, though.
CW: Have you seen [FILM]?
Me: No. What's it about?
They will then tell you all about it and you can say: "That's interesting" "I didn't know that" "How funny" "I wonder what will happen next week"
5. Don't go to parties. I try sometimes and hate it again every time. Six people in a purely social setting or twelve in a focused setting is my maximum.
6. Go to interest-focused events. I get on better when I am doing something with people, not just "being social". Taking classes or going to free lectures is great because you always have something non-confrontational to talk about. E.g. I went to a bicycle maintenance class (mustache points!) and I swear I was the chattiest one there even though I hate talking to strangers because I just said: "That's a nice bike" "Do you cycle a lot?" or "Did it take you long to cycle here?" to everyone I had to talk to and then they started talking about their bike. I hate 'going for a drink' with someone, but an acquaintance has invited me 'for a drink' to ask my advice on a project they are working on. I know I will enjoy this because there is no ambiguity in what I am supposed to do.
7.Read fiction. Modern fiction is best, but anything will help. It gives you an insight into other people's minds - I always have problems remembering that other people don't think the same way I do. I'm a particular fan of detective stories, because I enjoy the puzzle and because there's always a lot of discussion about motivation.
8. With people I know better, I do tend to say things like "Do you want the short answer or the long answer?" when asked about something I am really interested in, and if they say the long answer then that's what they're going to get! I also say "Please let me know if I've told you enough", and I really mean that people should tell me if they are bored, but they mostly don't. I suppose they are being polite, but maybe they are just fascinated! I wouldn't do this with a stranger, though.
9. Don't worry too much about having lots of friends. I moved somewhere new nearly six months ago and I have two friends here. That is fine by me! They are excellent friends, and my husband has lots more friends so I can have non-committal social interaction through him if I need it.
What a great post! You clearly know yourself well and problem solve well.
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Talk therapy can be somewhat costly (even with insurance, it's at least a $20 copay), but medication is usually cheap. If you actually need/could benefit from medication, the benefits would probably outweigh the costs.
I'd also recommend finding an inexpensive counselor to see occasionally, or at least for an evaluation. You can find one that's in network on your insurance if you have it, otherwise there are some that are sliding scale.
You mention that you don't earn enough to afford treatment. Are your social issues holding you back from earning more money in any way? If so, you can think of treatment as an investment in your future earning potential. Not to mention your quality of life...
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Even in such a big post, I forgot something!
I don't have a high need for routine, but I do get very stressed if I don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going somewhere, I want to know exactly where it is, who is going to be there, what time I will arrive and leave, what is on the menu and what is going to happen. I can actually adapt very quickly if I am adequately briefed beforehand. It means I only have to think about what I'm saying and doing, not about all the other things that are going on. If it weren't a bit crazy, I would love to request photos of places before I go and of people before I meet them, but hey, you can't have everything. It does stress me out when something is planned one way and happens another (like something happening to make me late or the thing I chose from their online menu not being available at a restaurant) but at least I am only stressing about that one thing and not everything!
@BPA: thank you! But it took me YEARS to figure it out. I'm 24 and I've only started to wrap my head round it all in the past two or three years. For example, I kept reading that people with Aspergers liked routine and thought "That's not like me, I don't like doing the same thing every day and hate external constraints on my time". But eventually (after about five years of thinking that!) I realised that I *do* like things to be predictable, which is similar to liking routine. Socially I still struggle with the 'why', but I feel like I am getting there with the 'what'. It is work, though, and I still say really blunt things when I am tired. (E.g. Friend: Hey, do you want to go for a drink? Me: No. *hangs up phone* Husband: You can't just say no. Me:But I answered the question he asked! Gah! Im going to bed!)
Sorry all, that unexpectedly turned into another long post! I hope the OP is finding this helpful!
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Even in such a big post, I forgot something!
I don't have a high need for routine, but I do get very stressed if I don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going somewhere, I want to know exactly where it is, who is going to be there, what time I will arrive and leave, what is on the menu and what is going to happen. I can actually adapt very quickly if I am adequately briefed beforehand. It means I only have to think about what I'm saying and doing, not about all the other things that are going on. If it weren't a bit crazy, I would love to request photos of places before I go and of people before I meet them, but hey, you can't have everything. It does stress me out when something is planned one way and happens another (like something happening to make me late or the thing I chose from their online menu not being available at a restaurant) but at least I am only stressing about that one thing and not everything!
@BPA: thank you! But it took me YEARS to figure it out. I'm 24 and I've only started to wrap my head round it all in the past two or three years. For example, I kept reading that people with Aspergers liked routine and thought "That's not like me, I don't like doing the same thing every day and hate external constraints on my time". But eventually (after about five years of thinking that!) I realised that I *do* like things to be predictable, which is similar to liking routine. Socially I still struggle with the 'why', but I feel like I am getting there with the 'what'. It is work, though, and I still say really blunt things when I am tired. (E.g. Friend: Hey, do you want to go for a drink? Me: No. *hangs up phone* Husband: You can't just say no. Me:But I answered the question he asked! Gah! Im going to bed!)
Sorry all, that unexpectedly turned into another long post! I hope the OP is finding this helpful!
It sounds like you and I have a lot in common. Can we be friends?
I wondered about the Asperger's thing myself. I really only have trouble when I'm around unfamiliar people and am expected to try to connect with several people at a time. I get a certain exhilaration from it, though, and I sometimes, only sometimes, put myself into unfamiliar, even spontaneous, situations just to see what will happen. I like being able to pretend to be the outgoing friendly girl, but I usually give up the act pretty quickly when I run out of "script." Then, I either make it up as I go along and ignore the inner wincing, or I pretend to lose interest and withdraw into a "safe" position, like sitting down with a book or looking at my phone. I'm the worst at dances and big parties, because when I start to feel uncomfortable, I retreat, no matter how engaging or fun the situation may be. I just have to get away from all of the stimulation. It depresses me for some reason. Unfortunately, my reactions and need to avoid people sometimes leave them with a bad impression of me. I've learned to fight it a little, but I always look for the same chair, the same conversation, the same people, etc. I too like the environment to be very predictable, if I have to do it for long.
Substitute teaching has tested me to the limit, though. I'm in an environment with 120 different people each day, many of whom are not thrilled to see me and think I'm a mean old lady (I'm only 28, but I dress in a way that makes me look a lot older; I've always had an issue with dressing appropriately.) The kids usually pick up that there is something "wrong" with me. I've even heard this opinion voiced, and I do always feel extremely awkward. I also don't think very fast, so coming up with witty comments and reactions to what the kids say is pretty difficult, and in a situation where my appearance is already giving bad vibes, being able to talk and prove myself "normal" would be an advantage.
Since I like scripts so much, maybe I should start writing down some of what they say and coming up with situation specific comebacks for next time. I have trouble connecting with the kids, though. A few teachers have given me little tips, though, like, "always be upfront about who you are to the kids. Tell them your occupation, your degrees, hobbies, etc." Maybe I should start trying some kind of ice breaker with them? I'm just afraid that if I don't make them think I'm a former drill sergeant, they will try to take advantage of me. One thing those painful situations do elicit is a little more preparation on my part. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Those kids are brutal. For instance, a high school sophomore said to me something like, "Ooh! If you were my wife, I wouldn't know what to do with you." I just put my head down and tried not to make eye contact. I wanted the kid to sit back down and start his work, but he was being quite a nuisance. Instead, maybe I should have said something like, "the feeling's mutual; if you were my son, I would not know what to do with you. Be grateful you aren't. Now, sit down before I call the principal." I have trouble thinking of things to say when I'm stressed, though.
This same young man too out his phone and started recording me. I tried to scowl at him to put it down, but he reacted as if I smiled and said something like, "Ooh! She thinks she looks good. You don't look good, lady!" The class was laughing, but I really didn't know what to do. At this point, everyone was out of order, and my mind wasn't focusing on who might have started it. In fact, it wasn't really registering at the time that perhaps the class was out of order because of this young man's actions. All I saw was chaos. To me, they all deserved to be written up.
Man, those kids know how to eat me alive. I wish they could taste the world through my eyes. Then, maybe they would have a little compassion.
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Even in such a big post, I forgot something!
I don't have a high need for routine, but I do get very stressed if I don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going somewhere, I want to know exactly where it is, who is going to be there, what time I will arrive and leave, what is on the menu and what is going to happen. I can actually adapt very quickly if I am adequately briefed beforehand. It means I only have to think about what I'm saying and doing, not about all the other things that are going on. If it weren't a bit crazy, I would love to request photos of places before I go and of people before I meet them, but hey, you can't have everything. It does stress me out when something is planned one way and happens another (like something happening to make me late or the thing I chose from their online menu not being available at a restaurant) but at least I am only stressing about that one thing and not everything!
@BPA: thank you! But it took me YEARS to figure it out. I'm 24 and I've only started to wrap my head round it all in the past two or three years. For example, I kept reading that people with Aspergers liked routine and thought "That's not like me, I don't like doing the same thing every day and hate external constraints on my time". But eventually (after about five years of thinking that!) I realised that I *do* like things to be predictable, which is similar to liking routine. Socially I still struggle with the 'why', but I feel like I am getting there with the 'what'. It is work, though, and I still say really blunt things when I am tired. (E.g. Friend: Hey, do you want to go for a drink? Me: No. *hangs up phone* Husband: You can't just say no. Me:But I answered the question he asked! Gah! Im going to bed!)
Sorry all, that unexpectedly turned into another long post! I hope the OP is finding this helpful!
A lot of your original post and this one feel very familiar to me (at 34). My partner is also very good at pointing out when there's an unwritten rule that I've missed or where I've assumed people know something which they have no logical reason to know (he calls this kind of assumed knowledge "the antiquities wing of the Cairo museum" after a particularly notable Parker scene in the TV program Leverage).
I also consume (and consumed) a lot of stuff aimed at children or young adults because it tends to be a little more explicit about why people do the things they do. The one big trap I fell into though was the artificial divides that a lot of media tries to impose on people (i.e. geeks vs jocks vs cheerleaders). I had to let go a lot of those preconceived notions.
I don't necessarily need routine but I do need coping strategies (i.e. if this thing happens then I can respond in this way). I find that I stress out a lot less about things going off-script these days but I have no idea why that is.
Thank you for articulating this stuff so clearly!
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KMB: I'm so sorry those kids were so mean. :( I agree that if they would give you a chance, they could learn enough. You are clearly a good and open-minded person. But teenagers can be brutal. If they can get an advantage, many of them will take it.
I know this is off topic, but have you considered becoming a librarian? You said you have an English degree, and a library setting might be more suited to you. You could still work with young people, but outside the dynamics of a classroom. My boyfriend is both an English teacher and a librarian.
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Even in such a big post, I forgot something!
I don't have a high need for routine, but I do get very stressed if I don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going somewhere, I want to know exactly where it is, who is going to be there, what time I will arrive and leave, what is on the menu and what is going to happen. I can actually adapt very quickly if I am adequately briefed beforehand. It means I only have to think about what I'm saying and doing, not about all the other things that are going on. If it weren't a bit crazy, I would love to request photos of places before I go and of people before I meet them, but hey, you can't have everything. It does stress me out when something is planned one way and happens another (like something happening to make me late or the thing I chose from their online menu not being available at a restaurant) but at least I am only stressing about that one thing and not everything!
@BPA: thank you! But it took me YEARS to figure it out. I'm 24 and I've only started to wrap my head round it all in the past two or three years. For example, I kept reading that people with Aspergers liked routine and thought "That's not like me, I don't like doing the same thing every day and hate external constraints on my time". But eventually (after about five years of thinking that!) I realised that I *do* like things to be predictable, which is similar to liking routine. Socially I still struggle with the 'why', but I feel like I am getting there with the 'what'. It is work, though, and I still say really blunt things when I am tired. (E.g. Friend: Hey, do you want to go for a drink? Me: No. *hangs up phone* Husband: You can't just say no. Me:But I answered the question he asked! Gah! Im going to bed!)
Sorry all, that unexpectedly turned into another long post! I hope the OP is finding this helpful!
It sounds like you and I have a lot in common. Can we be friends?
I wondered about the Asperger's thing myself. I really only have trouble when I'm around unfamiliar people and am expected to try to connect with several people at a time. I get a certain exhilaration from it, though, and I sometimes, only sometimes, put myself into unfamiliar, even spontaneous, situations just to see what will happen. I like being able to pretend to be the outgoing friendly girl, but I usually give up the act pretty quickly when I run out of "script." Then, I either make it up as I go along and ignore the inner wincing, or I pretend to lose interest and withdraw into a "safe" position, like sitting down with a book or looking at my phone. I'm the worst at dances and big parties, because when I start to feel uncomfortable, I retreat, no matter how engaging or fun the situation may be. I just have to get away from all of the stimulation. It depresses me for some reason. Unfortunately, my reactions and need to avoid people sometimes leave them with a bad impression of me. I've learned to fight it a little, but I always look for the same chair, the same conversation, the same people, etc. I too like the environment to be very predictable, if I have to do it for long.
Substitute teaching has tested me to the limit, though. I'm in an environment with 120 different people each day, many of whom are not thrilled to see me and think I'm a mean old lady (I'm only 28, but I dress in a way that makes me look a lot older; I've always had an issue with dressing appropriately.) The kids usually pick up that there is something "wrong" with me. I've even heard this opinion voiced, and I do always feel extremely awkward. I also don't think very fast, so coming up with witty comments and reactions to what the kids say is pretty difficult, and in a situation where my appearance is already giving bad vibes, being able to talk and prove myself "normal" would be an advantage.
Since I like scripts so much, maybe I should start writing down some of what they say and coming up with situation specific comebacks for next time. I have trouble connecting with the kids, though. A few teachers have given me little tips, though, like, "always be upfront about who you are to the kids. Tell them your occupation, your degrees, hobbies, etc." Maybe I should start trying some kind of ice breaker with them? I'm just afraid that if I don't make them think I'm a former drill sergeant, they will try to take advantage of me. One thing those painful situations do elicit is a little more preparation on my part. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Those kids are brutal. For instance, a high school sophomore said to me something like, "Ooh! If you were my wife, I wouldn't know what to do with you." I just put my head down and tried not to make eye contact. I wanted the kid to sit back down and start his work, but he was being quite a nuisance. Instead, maybe I should have said something like, "the feeling's mutual; if you were my son, I would not know what to do with you. Be grateful you aren't. Now, sit down before I call the principal." I have trouble thinking of things to say when I'm stressed, though.
This same young man too out his phone and started recording me. I tried to scowl at him to put it down, but he reacted as if I smiled and said something like, "Ooh! She thinks she looks good. You don't look good, lady!" The class was laughing, but I really didn't know what to do. At this point, everyone was out of order, and my mind wasn't focusing on who might have started it. In fact, it wasn't really registering at the time that perhaps the class was out of order because of this young man's actions. All I saw was chaos. To me, they all deserved to be written up.
Man, those kids know how to eat me alive. I wish they could taste the world through my eyes. Then, maybe they would have a little compassion.
Ouch! that sounds like some really unpleasant interaction with kids, I'm sorry that happened to you.
One thing I would note, I get the feeling classroom management is one of those things that a lot of teachers struggle with even if they are completely neurotypical, it might be worth posting an off topic thread on this board to ask for tactics for dealing with unruly classrooms, since I believe that there are a number of teachers who post on this board.
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KMB: I feel for you. I have 100% of the issues you stated here but less severe.
Kids (and adults) say dumb things all the time. Try reading some books on increasing self confidence. Then you won't be as concerned about dumb comments. The comment about you being his wife doesn't even make sense to me. I would probably laugh and move on.
Learning not to dwell on things is a tenant of cognitive behavioral therapy. Try reading Feeling Good by david burns.
I know its not my place to say, but I wonder if you really have Asbergers or are you really just surrounded by idiots.
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I have a lot of experience in this area as my son has autism, my brother (in his 50s) has Aspergers, I have a nephew with autism and work closely with two doctors who have Aspergers. All of them have some degree of anxiety, but all of them have friends and good interactions with co-workers, etc. There are plenty of books available on Amazon regarding social skills which are helpful and could help you see what areas you have the most difficulty with. 5-HTP has been very helpful for my son and isn't particularly expensive, it takes the edge off. One of the doctors I work with has confided in me that she has difficulty with social "stuff" and this is particularly hard for women. She finds it helpful to run social situations by me for input, and I don't mind doing it. Is there any way you could take someone into your confidence (I know it's hard) and admit to them that you have trouble with anxiety and social cues and having them spend a little time with you and giving you honest feedback about conversation skills, entry and exit, body language etc? I also would highly recommend finding some source for therapy in your area. Is there a university counseling center with interns looking to do hours? Social support groups?
I know how hard it can be, I see my son struggle, but he is making slow progress (he's still young, only 13). But I want to tell you that there is hope. My brother was very impaired by his Aspergers and anxiety growing up and into his 30s. As he took chances and stepped out of his comfort zone (medication might be needed here as it was for him for awhile), it got easier for him. In his 30s and 40s he started socializing tentatively with people at work and practice made perfect, well not perfect but better. In his late 40s he actually started dating (mostly neurotypical women) and a few years ago met a wonderful woman who loved him, quirks and all. They've been married several years and it's working great for them. Good luck.
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Even in such a big post, I forgot something!
I don't have a high need for routine, but I do get very stressed if I don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going somewhere, I want to know exactly where it is, who is going to be there, what time I will arrive and leave, what is on the menu and what is going to happen. I can actually adapt very quickly if I am adequately briefed beforehand. It means I only have to think about what I'm saying and doing, not about all the other things that are going on. If it weren't a bit crazy, I would love to request photos of places before I go and of people before I meet them, but hey, you can't have everything. It does stress me out when something is planned one way and happens another (like something happening to make me late or the thing I chose from their online menu not being available at a restaurant) but at least I am only stressing about that one thing and not everything!
@BPA: thank you! But it took me YEARS to figure it out. I'm 24 and I've only started to wrap my head round it all in the past two or three years. For example, I kept reading that people with Aspergers liked routine and thought "That's not like me, I don't like doing the same thing every day and hate external constraints on my time". But eventually (after about five years of thinking that!) I realised that I *do* like things to be predictable, which is similar to liking routine. Socially I still struggle with the 'why', but I feel like I am getting there with the 'what'. It is work, though, and I still say really blunt things when I am tired. (E.g. Friend: Hey, do you want to go for a drink? Me: No. *hangs up phone* Husband: You can't just say no. Me:But I answered the question he asked! Gah! Im going to bed!)
Sorry all, that unexpectedly turned into another long post! I hope the OP is finding this helpful!
It sounds like you and I have a lot in common. Can we be friends?
I wondered about the Asperger's thing myself. I really only have trouble when I'm around unfamiliar people and am expected to try to connect with several people at a time. I get a certain exhilaration from it, though, and I sometimes, only sometimes, put myself into unfamiliar, even spontaneous, situations just to see what will happen. I like being able to pretend to be the outgoing friendly girl, but I usually give up the act pretty quickly when I run out of "script." Then, I either make it up as I go along and ignore the inner wincing, or I pretend to lose interest and withdraw into a "safe" position, like sitting down with a book or looking at my phone. I'm the worst at dances and big parties, because when I start to feel uncomfortable, I retreat, no matter how engaging or fun the situation may be. I just have to get away from all of the stimulation. It depresses me for some reason. Unfortunately, my reactions and need to avoid people sometimes leave them with a bad impression of me. I've learned to fight it a little, but I always look for the same chair, the same conversation, the same people, etc. I too like the environment to be very predictable, if I have to do it for long.
Substitute teaching has tested me to the limit, though. I'm in an environment with 120 different people each day, many of whom are not thrilled to see me and think I'm a mean old lady (I'm only 28, but I dress in a way that makes me look a lot older; I've always had an issue with dressing appropriately.) The kids usually pick up that there is something "wrong" with me. I've even heard this opinion voiced, and I do always feel extremely awkward. I also don't think very fast, so coming up with witty comments and reactions to what the kids say is pretty difficult, and in a situation where my appearance is already giving bad vibes, being able to talk and prove myself "normal" would be an advantage.
Since I like scripts so much, maybe I should start writing down some of what they say and coming up with situation specific comebacks for next time. I have trouble connecting with the kids, though. A few teachers have given me little tips, though, like, "always be upfront about who you are to the kids. Tell them your occupation, your degrees, hobbies, etc." Maybe I should start trying some kind of ice breaker with them? I'm just afraid that if I don't make them think I'm a former drill sergeant, they will try to take advantage of me. One thing those painful situations do elicit is a little more preparation on my part. I certainly don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Those kids are brutal. For instance, a high school sophomore said to me something like, "Ooh! If you were my wife, I wouldn't know what to do with you." I just put my head down and tried not to make eye contact. I wanted the kid to sit back down and start his work, but he was being quite a nuisance. Instead, maybe I should have said something like, "the feeling's mutual; if you were my son, I would not know what to do with you. Be grateful you aren't. Now, sit down before I call the principal." I have trouble thinking of things to say when I'm stressed, though.
This same young man too out his phone and started recording me. I tried to scowl at him to put it down, but he reacted as if I smiled and said something like, "Ooh! She thinks she looks good. You don't look good, lady!" The class was laughing, but I really didn't know what to do. At this point, everyone was out of order, and my mind wasn't focusing on who might have started it. In fact, it wasn't really registering at the time that perhaps the class was out of order because of this young man's actions. All I saw was chaos. To me, they all deserved to be written up.
Man, those kids know how to eat me alive. I wish they could taste the world through my eyes. Then, maybe they would have a little compassion.
This sounds awful. It probably does show a lack of compassion on my part but try to care less about those kids. They are not defenseless little children but teenagers. A lot of teenagers have an awful personality. Some mature out of it, some do not. Don't try to be liked to much. Groups of teenagers pick up on this need easily. Care about the student's future but accept that you will not be their role-model or their friend. And thats ok. The first only happens in movies, the latter should not happen at all.
Practise some almost universally applicable answers like 'That's really none of your business'. I'm not a native speaker but in German it would work for comments re looks and wively qualities. Witty answers that get repeated and even funnier over time are really more relevant for movies than for real life. All you need to do is deliver a short quick oneliner that establishes your boundaries. Preferrably with an emotionless rather than an angry face. Avoid looking hurt at all costs. I would not tolerate being filmed. Other teachers are better equiped to say how to handle this without stepping over lines yourself.
Best of luck. Teachers need thick skins. Most of this is not at all about you or your social shortcomings.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
Maybe it would be best if you worked on your tolerance of other people and their (in your mind) imperfections. Your attitude, apparent superiority, and advice on this thread are cringe-worthy.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
Maybe it would be best if you worked on your tolerance of other people and their (in your mind) imperfections. Your attitude, apparent superiority, and advice on this thread are cringe-worthy.
This and all threads.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
Maybe it would be best if you worked on your tolerance of other people and their (in your mind) imperfections. Your attitude, apparent superiority, and advice on this thread are cringe-worthy.
This and all threads.
The correct spelling was provided over and over; there was no need to correct a one-off mistake.
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Another thing to bear in mind to avoid confusion is that as a female you may get a much harsher reaction for poor social skills then men do because we have higher expectations for women's social skills and "niceness" based on stereotypes.
Witness the fact that we have lots of nutty / aspy / judge-y people on there but Cathy, with a female-sounding username, seems to bring out a lot more flat-out smackdowns.
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Another thing to bear in mind to avoid confusion is that as a female you may get a much harsher reaction for poor social skills then men do because we have higher expectations for women's social skills and "niceness" based on stereotypes.
Witness the fact that we have lots of nutty / aspy / judge-y people on there but Cathy, with a female-sounding username, seems to bring out a lot more flat-out smackdowns.
As I stated in my first post in the thread:
"90% of the time when I read a post that is unbelievably out of touch with reality I look at the poster name and see "Cathy"."
I never read usernames unless the post was so stupid that I wanted to see who wrote it. Seems strange and desperate to try to bring gender into a critique of a person based solely on the content of their posts.
Edit - desperate as in desperate to find a way to work gender stereotyping into a situation that doesn't warrant it
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I also think that I am a fringe Asbergerberer.
When I am in a social context, I simply put a facade and go through a list of topics/ pre planned conversations to get over the small talk. I also found ways to detract conversation to things that interest me more.
I also stopped trying to be a social butterfly. I am Asbergerberer and I learned to accept my Asbergerberism.
OP, it does get better. While you will be Asbergerberer for life, you can find ways to cope with it, accept it and, eventually flourish in the world.
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Most of the really awful (IRL the person would be yelling, screaming, foaming at the mouth, shaking a fist or middle digit in the air) posts I have seen here (mostly but not all in Off Topic) belong to people whose names and posting content suggest the male gender. "Cathy"'s posts are coming from a certain viewpoint, but the posts themselves are perfectly rational (sometimes maybe too rational, people seem to want more emotion).
Just a point to consider.
Back to the previously scheduled topic . . . .
Another thing to bear in mind to avoid confusion is that as a female you may get a much harsher reaction for poor social skills then men do because we have higher expectations for women's social skills and "niceness" based on stereotypes.
Witness the fact that we have lots of nutty / aspy / judge-y people on there but Cathy, with a female-sounding username, seems to bring out a lot more flat-out smackdowns.
As I stated in my first post in the thread:
"90% of the time when I read a post that is unbelievably out of touch with reality I look at the poster name and see "Cathy"."
I never read usernames unless the post was so stupid that I wanted to see who wrote it. Seems strange and desperate to try to bring gender into a critique of a person based solely on the content of their posts.
Edit - desperate as in desperate to find a way to work gender stereotyping into a situation that doesn't warrant it
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Another thing to bear in mind to avoid confusion is that as a female you may get a much harsher reaction for poor social skills then men do because we have higher expectations for women's social skills and "niceness" based on stereotypes.
Witness the fact that we have lots of nutty / aspy / judge-y people on there but Cathy, with a female-sounding username, seems to bring out a lot more flat-out smackdowns.
As I stated in my first post in the thread:
"90% of the time when I read a post that is unbelievably out of touch with reality I look at the poster name and see "Cathy"."
I never read usernames unless the post was so stupid that I wanted to see who wrote it. Seems strange and desperate to try to bring gender into a critique of a person based solely on the content of their posts.
Edit - desperate as in desperate to find a way to work gender stereotyping into a situation that doesn't warrant it
Gender-based reactions don't have to be conscious. I'm not suggesting that anyone deliberately chooses to find someone super awkward or cringeworthy based on their gender. It's a bit like studies showing that if a boy child and a girl child are making noise at the same volume, the girl is more likely to be reprimanded. The theory is the parent feels it's natural for girls to be quieter, therefore the girl being as loud as a boy is more out of control and disobedient than the boy is. (Likewise we might find a man too passive or obsequious for the same behavior we might accept in a woman.)
I see plenty of male or neuter usernames with posts that are superior or wacked out or tone deaf and people seem more likely to engage them in heated debate than jump on them for a personality flaw.
Obviously, this isn't a controlled environment; it might be mere coincidence and reactions to posts (such as my feeling that Cathy's are qualitatively similar to others) are highly subjective.
I thought it was funny to bring it up in the context of this particular thread but I do also see evidence of it in my field. Technicians or mechanical-skills types are generally given a pass for awkward behavior, particularly now that autism spectrum has become a popular concept, but I find this doesn't extend to females with the same inclinations.
I don't know that the OP is female, but with a couple other users who I assume are female chiming in I thought it was worth mentioning.
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I strongly recommend The Autistic Brain by Temple Grandin for anyone. It helped me think about people on the autistic spectrum differently. I bought it used for a couple bucks.
Due to the recent implementation of mental health parity laws, your health insurance is likely to have significant coverages for mental health care. Professional help may be beneficial to you to help work through social anxiety.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
It kind of makes me cringe when people try to throw their intellect around and fail.
Technically, there is no correct spelling for Asperger's Syndrome, as it no longer exists diagnostically. The most recent revision of the DSM (The DSM V) has reclassified it and many others into a single umbrella classification, Autism Spectrum Disorder. This diagnosis is used to cover the range of previous terms that were characterized by deficits in social communication, highly fixed interests, rigid adherence to schedules, sensory sensitivities, etc.
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I strongly recommend The Autistic Brain by Temple Grandin for anyone. It helped me think about people on the autistic spectrum differently. I bought it used for a couple bucks.
Due to the recent implementation of mental health parity laws, your health insurance is likely to have significant coverages for mental health care. Professional help may be beneficial to you to help work through social anxiety.
+1
Her book, Thinking in Pictures, is also a great read. Also, the movie that was made from her story (starring Claire Danes), called Temple Grandin I believe, is a really interesting representation into how she perceives the world. I would highly recommend it for everyone, with or without a disability, to check it out.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
It kind of makes me cringe when people try to throw their intellect around and fail.
Technically, there is no correct spelling for Asperger's Syndrome, as it no longer exists diagnostically. The most recent revision of the DSM (The DSM V) has reclassified it and many others into a single umbrella classification, Autism Spectrum Disorder. This diagnosis is used to cover the range of previous terms that were characterized by deficits in social communication, highly fixed interests, rigid adherence to schedules, sensory sensitivities, etc.
Well 'hysteria' isn't in the DSM any more but there's still an officially correct spelling :) I'm assuming Cathy's just going by the dude's name. Dr. Hans Asperger. (That's me throwing Wikipedia around).
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To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills.
I don't think I have called you anything in my reply to your advise.
Several people on this thread have described how they have successfully improved their social skills. Unless you assume that all of them are lying you should perhaps reconsider your 'don't even try...' position. I really have no problem at all with somebody making the decision to live as an island. Some days I find the idea tempting myself. But if you tell somebody 'don't try' when it can be done and is done on a regular basis you are not being standoffish but could do real damage in somebody else's life. I think this is the reason why some reactions to your post have been very personal and heavy-handed.
For the record: I think you meant well and attempted to simply tell the ugly truth as you see it.
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To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills. I'm sure some people have noticed that irony, especially since OP mentioned "[p]eople sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem". I just received a PM where somebody called me a "robot".
Now picture similar events to this thread occurring over and over each day for your entire life so far. Maybe you would feel a bit jaded too.
I see your point. Although I'm usually okay on the internet, I do often feel like a fish out of water in situations IRL. I had a roommate who decided to come home drunk one day and rant about me to one of her buddies. I was listening to the whole conversation through my bedroom door. She called me a b**** and complained about me for various little things that I, surprise, didn't notice. I've also had people blow up in my face because they were tired of my "anti-social habits" and "blatant disregard of common courtesy." I hate the way many people just assume you know the rules when maybe you don't. Enduring all of the stupidity, though, has at least taught me to try not to judge other people based on action alone, and, for that, I'm willing to accept that you were just trying to give me helpful advice, and I thank you, but please don't see the glass as completely empty. There's always a little bit of sunshine after those unbearably cloudy days. Plus, I know from experience that I'm not truly anti-social, so those group three people might make great friends.
Also, there may be a group four, people who have ASD and overcame their social awkwardness or who are / were very close to people with ASD who want to form genuine bonds with us because they think we are great people. Hey, the possibility's always out there, and if you can tolerate a little social misunderstanding, people with ASD and other mild disorders probably make great friends.
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I just wanted to give you some encouragement -- there are people like those you've just described and you should definitely try to push your boundaries a bit and maybe you will find others you are able to form meaningful relationships with :)
My husband isn't ASD but he has a neurological sleep disorder that basically makes it so he constantly feels as if he hasn't slept in three days (or, how a normal person would feel if they hadn't. I don't think he could physically not sleep for even 1 day...). He was the popular, jocky, class clown type kid in high school -- friends with everyone. Since developing this disorder in his early/mid 20s, he's had a serious decline in his social skills. It's because he's so sleepy that he can't focus on a conversation or body language, or process what people are saying to him, etc etc. He just doesn't notice things or pick up on cues anymore. This has led to issues at various jobs with coworkers (plus them judging him as 'lazy' because he can literally fall asleep in the middle of any task, even things like soldering), and definitely curbed his ability to make and keep friends. He's got pretty severe social anxiety because of it at this point--only really leaves the house to go to the VA for doctor's appointments, visit family, or if I drag him with me; doesn't really even make phone calls anymore unless he's absolutely forced to. So he's having a lot of the social issues you are, just for a different reason.
I met and married him after this started; he's never been the kind of guy I feel super comfortable bringing in heavily social situations (parties with friends or whatever). There were, and probably always will be, moments in which he doesn't get what I'm saying or projecting, and doesn't necessarily react properly. There have been fights around this issue, but we're working on it. He's really a great person, one on one. I just like to joke that I can't take him in public because he invariably says something incredibly embarrassing (for me) and/or rude (to others). He was very reluctant to meet my family when we started dating, but due to the aforementioned disability, lost his job fairly quickly afterwards and we ended up moving back in with my parents for a few months -- they think he's great now, because they took the time to get to know him one on one or in small groups. In larger groups, he just fades away to the back and usually ends up on the couch messing around on his phone. Honestly I think my mom is more understanding of his social quirks than I am.
So basically my point is that you shouldn't give up and there are ways to have meaningful relationships without forcing yourself into situations that are terribly uncomfortable.
I also think that part of DH's strength in dealing with this is his incredibly thick skin -- he was a Marine and none of the situations you've described would have phased him one bit. I'm the exact opposite so I totally get why you want everyone to like you and why it's upsetting that your roommate was talking shit and the kids were sexually harassing you (seriously, that's what they did with the videoing/wife comments and I would honestly be tempted to pursue that if I was you...that kid is an asshole and will grow up to be an even bigger asshole if he doesn't start getting hit with serious consequences for his behavior). I'm working on not caring so much, and I think that's probably going to be a big deal for you too -- you have to get to the point where you honestly don't care about stuff like that. And....fake it til you make it ;) Especially in front of the kids. Teenagers are jerks and they will eat you alive if they sense weakness (sounds like a horror movie...).
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For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.
Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong.
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For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.
Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong.
I think I understand the urge but bear in mind a lot of what you are taking as support from bystanders to bullying is actually fear.
If they step in, or even act in a way that is less than supportive then they fear that they will turn themselves into a target.
Whatever Machiavelli said, it is definitely not better to be feared than loved (if only because those who fear you will turn on a dime as soon as they perceive weakness).
It's why a lot of anti bullying campaigns target bystanders, because there are usually much more of them and if you can convince just a few to step in then the odds of a situation tilt against the bully.
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For that matter, why can some people get away with murder socially? There's a certain personality that won't allow anyone to take advantage of it. If you say anything to them that even sounds wrong, they go into a rage and target you emotionally. Some people know exactly what to say to hit where it hurts. How on Earth do they do that, and how do they actually remain well liked or gain likeability because of it? It confuses me. I try to be as nice as I can to people, and they walk over me, take me for granted, or label me as "weird." The socially dominant jerk, on the other hand, has a lot of friends in most circles. Why are people like this? It really confuses me.
Case in point, if those teens would have had a different understanding of social norms, someone would have said something to the kids who were trying to give me a hard time. It would not have been seen as socially acceptable, but, as it stands, the kids were enjoying it. I know I was the adult in the situation, but I was obviously having trouble, and they encouraged that kid by paying attention and laughing. It's normal for people to be bullied. Society often turns a blind eye. Social rules can be broken if a person is well liked. I don't understand the science of likeability and why unsavory people can get away with so much. I wish someone with charisma would take me under wing and teach me everything I'm doing wrong.
I think I understand the urge but bear in mind a lot of what you are taking as support from bystanders to bullying is actually fear.
If they step in, or even act in a way that is less than supportive then they fear that they will turn themselves into a target.
Whatever Machiavelli said, it is definitely not better to be feared than loved (if only because those who fear you will turn on a dime as soon as they perceive weakness).
It's why a lot of anti bullying campaigns target bystanders, because there are usually much more of them and if you can convince just a few to step in then the odds of a situation tilt against the bully.
+1
People follow strength. They don't always stop to consider whether that strength is being used well. And teens are so confused themselves. They're still trying to form a framework for how they behave. And 98% of teens are terrified of being identified as "different", so even if they're uncomfortable with someone's behavior they're too afraid to stand out by standing up. They figure that as a substitute you'll be gone in a day or two, while they will have to continue taking the same classes with the bully for the next 4 years.
I would encourage you to continue to try and be a kind person, but also focus on being a confident person. Obviously, this is not easy. Plenty of people struggle with this (I still do). But as Lyssa said, sometimes you have to "fake it until you can make it". But I prefer to think of it more as practicing my confidence so I don't reinforce the idea of me being a fake. A lot of times a bit of confidence in yourself can cut the legs off such taunts. That "wife" comment was so outrageous (like a teen is an expert on marriage in any way), it may have gone over well if you could manage a laugh in such a case. Not an appreciative laugh, but a scoff, and move on.
I'm not sure what topics you end up teaching, but if you can find some good segues to get the focus of the students back on school, most of those students who are following the bully will allow themselves to be pulled back on topic. As far as specifics... "Thank you for the wonderful demonstration of a working circuit. One thing all circuits have in common is that they produce Ohmic heat. This means that they will heat up, which is why your cell phone gets warm when you have a long conversation, or why it's so important to keep your Xbox in a well ventilated space so you don't get that red ring of death..." (I'm a physics person) Ideally, try to make your comment something they'll find relevant (cell phones, video games, Facebook, Twitter, etc). It's best if it's something interesting, something to explain a phenomenon they've observed before but have no explanation. I chose this example because I've noticed that there's inevitably one person who gets excited when I mention the "Red Ring of Death". Keep an eye out for what does interest your students about your subject(s).
Full disclosure - I'm not particularly witty and I can't guarantee these methods will work. I've never substituted, I can only imagine how difficult it must be. I admire your determination to adapt and improve your responses.
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To me, the most interesting aspect of this thread is how the various replies to me basically demonstrate what life is like if you are not good at social skills. I'm sure some people have noticed that irony, especially since OP mentioned "[p]eople sometimes misjudge my actions because of my problem". I just received a PM where somebody called me a "robot".
Now picture similar events to this thread occurring over and over each day for your entire life so far. Maybe you would feel a bit jaded too.
So, you can call people out and ask them not to do things that make you cringe, but when they point out similar things you do that are cringe-worthy, that's not okay? I guess you are missing that particular irony.
Sheepstache: I am a woman and a feminist. I hope I've mostly deprogrammed myself from my socialization but am not so arrogant as to assume that I am 100% there. I am an ENTP though and flout convention pretty frequently. so I suspect that I am not prone to having different expectations of male and female behaviour. Something to reflect on though.
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I normally do not comment on threads to correct spelling, but I have seen many posts on this board that use the term "Asbergers" or other variations. The correct spelling is Asperger's Syndrome. Don't worry; you aren't alone in this misspelling. I've even seen it misspelled in judicial opinions (for one example, see Patton-Casse v. Casse, 2011 ONSC 6182, at para 14). So no worries about spelling it wrong, but it kind of makes me cringe, so I'm just pointing it out so we can all spell it correctly in the future.
I prefer "assburger's" myself
Anyways, lay off Cathy, guys. Yes, she often has an unconventional viewpoint, but we need her around for the spot-on legal advice and mathematical analysis she provides.
It's a bit like studies showing that if a boy child and a girl child are making noise at the same volume, the girl is more likely to be reprimanded.
Likely the girl has a higher pitched voice, which at the same decibel levels will be subjectively perceived to have a higher volume.
edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. God help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
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I can't tell you the number of times I've been chastised for "not behaving as a woman should behave" or not being "ladylike." Usually I just tell those people to fuck off. ;)
I teach a novel about a boy with ASD, and I've never quite had the "assburger's" spelling submitted in an essay before. I keep expecting it though.
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edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
Fixed for you.
OP
I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.
If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.
If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.
*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!
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KMB: You deserve treatment for your anxiety and (likely) depression. It's going to take awhile to move forward and it's going to be hard to progress in your career without treatment (whether it be books, counseling etc.) Can you call the free clinic to see if they can connect you with other services? And if calling is too scary, can you stop by?
FWIW I googled aspergers and came up with asbergers and even the spell check in this box wants me to correct these words to "aspersions" and "beefburgers."
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KMB: You deserve treatment for your anxiety and (likely) depression. It's going to take awhile to move forward and it's going to be hard to progress in your career without treatment (whether it be books, counseling etc.) Can you call the free clinic to see if they can connect you with other services? And if calling is too scary, can you stop by?
FWIW I googled aspergers and came up with asbergers and even the spell check in this box wants me to correct these words to "aspersions" and "beefburgers."
That's all very good advice. Thank you.
On the spelling tip, try Googling "Asperger's" or just "AS," you'll probably come up with a lot of information then. Spell check won't try to correct you if you use a capital "A," at least it doesn't try to correct me.
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edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
Fixed for you.
OP
I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.
If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.
If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.
*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!
Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.
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The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.
If the student continues, act on your warning.
Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.
It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.
Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.
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edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
Fixed for you.
OP
I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.
If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.
If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.
*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!
Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.
Being strict can work or it can backfire. You can't be who you aren't. I never had to be strict right away. My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.
For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class. The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing. The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher. "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.
Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that. I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that. I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names. That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway. Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny. Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list." It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better.
I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10. "Wife? Why would I want to be your wife? Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you." None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them. Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me. Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.
Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible. The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.
Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict. They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them. It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it.
As I've said before, teaching is a social profession. The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.
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The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.
If the student continues, act on your warning.
Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.
It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.
Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.
Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
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The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.
If the student continues, act on your warning.
Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.
It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.
Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.
Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
I took that to mean the kid with the wife thing would have been 'expelled from the class' not expelled from school. If it meant expelled from school, then I agree with you that it seems a bit harsh. But he definitely should have faced some sort of consequences from administrators; that's sexual harassment and it's not okay.
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The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.
If the student continues, act on your warning.
Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.
It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.
Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.
Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
It's like that around here, too, and what can I do about whole class misbehavior? The students who were laughing and out of their seats carrying on when that kid was harassing me were just as guilty as the original kid. I would have had to have written the whole class up.
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edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
Fixed for you.
OP
I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.
If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.
If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.
*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!
Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.
Being strict can work or it can backfire. You can't be who you aren't. I never had to be strict right away. My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.
For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class. The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing. The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher. "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.
Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that. I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that. I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names. That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway. Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny. Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list." It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better.
I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10. "Wife? Why would I want to be your wife? Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you." None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them. Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me. Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.
Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible. The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.
Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict. They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them. It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it.
As I've said before, teaching is a social profession. The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.
If I were explicitly taught how to use wit with the students, I could probably do it, but I'm just not used to those kinds of situations. When I try it, they sense that I'm not comfortable and try to turn it around on me. I would need a script at first. You have to remember, I haven't had as many safe opportunities to practice things like that. Typically, I avoid social situations if they aren't absolutely necessary. I've only recently started to get out of it.
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The first student to step out of line gets a stern warning and are advised that they will get a citation/expelled from the class/a visit to the councillor/extra homework (take your pick) if they keep it up. Do that in front of the entire class and tell them that it goes for them to. You have to use a loud voice and be very firm.
If the student continues, act on your warning.
Allow students to work together if they behave nicely and revoke that privilege if any other student if being disruptive. This puts the pressure on them to cooperate.
It also depends on the age of the students, older students are easier to reason with whereas younger students are usually just "babying" it up.
Also, the student that said that you would not be a good wife would have gotten expelled without warning. That is disrespectful and being disrespectful gets you expelled.
Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
I took that to mean the kid with the wife thing would have been 'expelled from the class' not expelled from school. If it meant expelled from school, then I agree with you that it seems a bit harsh. But he definitely should have faced some sort of consequences from administrators; that's sexual harassment and it's not okay.
While you are right about it being sexual harassment, sub teachers are in a very precarious employment position. My boyfriend is one of the union leaders fighting stuff like this and he will speak up about such situations, but he has effectively destroyed his chances of getting a permanent contract. He will likely be subbing for the rest of his career.
The reality is that parents reign supreme and admin caves to them.
As a permanent contract teacher, I would discuss the sexism and hope learning would happen from there, but as a sub...unless you want to never get a contract, you try not to make too many waves. It's not right but it's reality and those fighting it have jeopardized their own careers.
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edit: although I'm not denying that such discrimination can occur. Allah help Cathy if she chose the username "LaShawnda"
Fixed for you.
OP
I used to do short term subbing back in the day (as in they may call you the morning of and tell you to haul ass to class) and found that sucked very badly. The money was good, so I kept focusing on that to get me through the day. I did not try to be a nice guy, quite the contrary, I instilled order and discipline* quite tyrannically. After establishing the law, it was easier to get the students to focus on their task.
If you show some weakness, they will eat you alive. You have to be a mean douche/bitch from the start.
If you do long term subbing, this is usually different as you have a class for longer than a single period. You may be able to establish a better relation with your students.
*De l'ordre et de la discipline!!!!!
Could someone please give me an explicit example of "mean" in this context? I thought I was doing that, but the kids usually don't take me seriously.
Being strict can work or it can backfire. You can't be who you aren't. I never had to be strict right away. My strategy was to focus on positive reinforcement.
For example, I would make two lists: one of students who were doing their work and behaving, and one of students who weren't doing their work but were behaving and I would write up a cute little note for the regular teacher letting her know what was going on in class. The teacher could read between the lines and discover who was doing nothing. The kids would want to be on the "good list" and sometimes they actually did more work for me than their classroom teacher. "Won't she be surprised that *I* was behaving myself when she was gone!" one of them said.
Kids never sat according to the seating plan when their teacher was away, and I didn't worry about that. I found out their names by letting them know that they were on one of the lists and that I wanted to let their teacher know that. I found that it was easy to find out the names of the troublemakers simply by listening because the other kids would always say their names. That way I never had to ask what a troublemaker's name was because they would lie anyway. Then, I could use the troublemaker's name and say something like, "Okay, Johnny. Let's see if we can get your name onto the well-behaved list." It would freak them out as in, "How does she know my name" and their behaviour usually got better.
I have a quick wit and they soon learned that if they were going to try to "burn" me, that I could do it back x10. "Wife? Why would I want to be your wife? Are you looking to get married now because I'm sure there are plenty of girls in your class who would love to be married to you." None of them would be likely to speak up, but even if they did, you could turn it into a funny wedding proposal thing that would take the emphasis off you being insulted and place it on them. Yes, it's silly, but it worked for me. Showing a sense of humour helps a great deal.
Once you've developed a reputation, it's hard to live that down, but not impossible. The good news is that a good reputation makes life so much easier.
Ultimately, you have to do what feels comfortable to you. I probably have the best reputation in my school as a classroom manager and it's because of the way I relate to the kids. They have told me that I'm mostly laidback, but if someone crosses the line I am super strict. They understand that I believe in mutual respect and that I truly care about them. It was harder to establish that when I was a sub, but I did manage it.
As I've said before, teaching is a social profession. The people I've worked with who had ASD have struggled a great deal. It's not impossible though.
If I were explicitly taught how to use wit with the students, I could probably do it, but I'm just not used to those kinds of situations. When I try it, they sense that I'm not comfortable and try to turn it around on me. I would need a script at first. You have to remember, I haven't had as many safe opportunities to practice things like that. Typically, I avoid social situations if they aren't absolutely necessary. I've only recently started to get out of it.
I know. It's why the teachers I've worked with who have ASD have struggled. And scripts aren't wit. Scripts can help though. The poster on page one with that lovely list of things she's come up with to help herself seems to have come up with strategies to help with her life. Let me see if I can think of some catch phrases that might be helpful. The problem is that kids can be unpredictable. Scripts help for sure, but they may not be enough.
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Here are some ideas. I'll think of some more, but I hope these will help.
“Good Morning. I’m Mr./Ms. ____________ and I will be your teacher for today.”
“Ms./Mr. _________________ has left this lesson plan and expects the work to be completed when he/she returns. I plan to let her/him know who has been working really hard and who has been behaving themselves.”
If a student is challenging your authority: “Mr./Ms. ___________ has an expectation that this work will be completed. It’s my job to communicate this information and it’s your job to complete the assignment. I would really like to let your teacher know that you were one of the cooperative, hard-working students.”
For students who are doing their work and cooperating: “This is really great. Ms./Mr. ______ will be so pleased to know that you are getting your work done. What’s your name again? I want to put you on the ‘Working Hard and Well Behaved List.’” I wouldn't announce it to the class. When the troublemakers see what is going on, they will quiet down so that they can hear what you are saying to the others. This is when many of them would settle down and get to work for me.
Other ideas:
As the class was settling in, if I already knew a student from a previous substitute gig, I would ask them how they’d been since the last time I’d seen them. Making positive connections is imperative to teaching.
Remain unruffled. If they see that they can’t get a rise out of you, most of them will stop trying. Teaching requires a thick skin.
I would allow them to work on assignments together as long as they were behaving like Guses suggested.
I would never take attendance orally. I would always walk around while they were doing seat work and get them to write down their names. That helped me to figure out who was whom. Sometimes they would write down Phil McCrackin or Ben Dover. I would remind them that if I didn’t have their actual name, they would be marked absent and truant. They didn’t want to be marked as skipping class when they were actually there.
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Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
I meant expelled from class, not from school.
The administrators could wonder all they wanted, I dealt with troublemakers and that was it. I never had trouble being called back for more subbing. I was not on contract.
The tips that you suggested are probably good for a normal "well behaved" class but I was often subbing for "learning trouble" class AKA the rejects and trouble makers from the regular classes.
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Caliq: Another example of how frustrating discipline can be depending on where one teaches happened just last month. A young permanent contract teacher was called a "fucking bitch" in the hallway by a student. Another teacher overheard it. The teacher who was sworn at told the vice principal who was reluctant to suspend the student because "this is out of character for her" (actually, it wasn't) and because her dad would fight it. So, the vp didn't believe her and was afraid of the dad. The teacher who was sworn at gave the name of the other teacher who was a witness.
Instead of interviewing the teacher witness, the vp interviewed students who surprise, surprise claimed they didn't hear anything. The vp also said she checked the security camera...which doesn't have any sound! So she was trying to determine from grainy video if the kid mouthed the words "fucking bitch?"
Teacher who was sworn at summoned me, the union rep, for support. As soon as I showed up, the vp's tune changed and the girl was suspended because swearing at teachers usually merits a 3 day suspension. It disturbs me that it took union intervention to have an appropriate consequence.
If KMB's school district is like mine, there's no way she'd get support for what that student said to her.
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Really? Where I teach the administrators would wonder why the sub couldn't handle that situation on their own. That wouldn't merit a suspension let alone an expulsion. And it would make admin wonder why the teacher couldn't deal with it.
I'm not saying that your way is wrong, but principals around here try to keep their suspension and expulsion rates low. In my 19 year career, we've only had one kid expelled and that was for a fight that landed another kid in the hospital.
I meant expelled from class, not from school.
The administrators could wonder all they wanted, I dealt with troublemakers and that was it. I never had trouble being called back for more subbing. I was not on contract.
The tips that you suggested are probably good for a normal "well behaved" class but I was often subbing for "learning trouble" class AKA the rejects and trouble makers from the regular classes.
Nope. I always got the tough classes although I wouldn't call them rejects.
When I got a class that wouldn't challenge me, it was like a holiday! When I started my permanent contract for about the first week and had one class that didn't have any kids with behaviour issues in it, I thought, "What? Like you are all going to do your work without too much cajoling from me?"
My department head once introduced me to our new principal as, "the teacher who has the best rapport with the worst kids in the school." So, my strategies worked for "those kids" too.
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
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OP hugs for your troubles.
Reading what you have written I find a lot of it applies to me.
Supply teachers really have the hardest front line job at the chalkface.
Students behave in ways they would never consider with established staff.
Have you read "You know the fair rule" by Bill Rogers? The best thing I have read on classroom management.
I think there is a danger in the witty comeback and you do well not to engage.
That said I have a few of my own, though they are more designed to defuse than antagonise.
My favourite is "I resemble that remark" when mildly insulted.
xxx
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
As the parent of a child who has been in one of these classes, I find the term "reject" highly offensive and if I knew my son's teacher was considering him to be a "reject" I would be complaining to his or her supervisor.
The teachers who haven't treated my son as a "reject" are the ones who have the greatest success with him.
And I have taught those classes too many times over my 19 year career. I would never ever call my students rejects.
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.
KMB: How many years have you been subbing?
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
As the parent of a child who has been in one of these classes, I find the term "reject" highly offensive and if I knew my son's teacher was considering him to be a "reject" I would be complaining to his or her supervisor.
The teachers who haven't treated my son as a "reject" are the ones who have the greatest success with him.
And I have taught those classes too many times over my 19 year career. I would never ever call my students rejects.
Just so we are clear, I am not talking about mentally challenged or dyslexic kids here but student that have attitude problems.
I stand by what I said and I did not use the term derogatorily. It is just the most accurate term.
You seem to be a great teacher, why did you not use your techniques to teach your son so that he did not have to be in that class?
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Rejects is exactly what the students I had were. They are the students that are removed from the regular classes and put in the "lowliest" class and, when they can't make the cut, they are yet again transferred to another class of "troubled learners" and "slightly impaired". They basically have their own special class because they have absolutely no hope of meeting the regular curriculum.
They have no other place in the system and are therefore placed in this class until they are old enough for the school to meet it's legal obligation.
So I think reject is highly appropriate.
I don't know if I've ever really encountered troubled groups of students who had no hope of learning what they needed, but I have encountered plenty of kids who couldn't care less about what was on the board and seemed to revel in giving me a hard time. It also seems to get worse every year. It seems like I lose something I had in common with the kids every year that passes by. Either that, or the behavior actually does get worse every year. I try new strategies, and they backfire, or the kids learn my tricks and use them against me because they are upset that I gave them a "hard time." It's really a no-win situation.
KMB: How many years have you been subbing?
I think this makes year three.
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Caliq: Another example of how frustrating discipline can be depending on where one teaches happened just last month. A young permanent contract teacher was called a "fucking bitch" in the hallway by a student. Another teacher overheard it. The teacher who was sworn at told the vice principal who was reluctant to suspend the student because "this is out of character for her" (actually, it wasn't) and because her dad would fight it. So, the vp didn't believe her and was afraid of the dad. The teacher who was sworn at gave the name of the other teacher who was a witness.
Instead of interviewing the teacher witness, the vp interviewed students who surprise, surprise claimed they didn't hear anything. The vp also said she checked the security camera...which doesn't have any sound! So she was trying to determine from grainy video if the kid mouthed the words "fucking bitch?"
Teacher who was sworn at summoned me, the union rep, for support. As soon as I showed up, the vp's tune changed and the girl was suspended because swearing at teachers usually merits a 3 day suspension. It disturbs me that it took union intervention to have an appropriate consequence.
If KMB's school district is like mine, there's no way she'd get support for what that student said to her.
Wow :(
I obviously have no experience on the teacher end of things, and was just speaking from my fairly recent memories of high school. I don't think I was terrible to subs, or regular teachers, but I was definitely one the disinterested ones.
I hope things improve for you, kmb.
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It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.
BPA's story enrages me.
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@justajane - students go for the jugular anyway - my general science teacher in grade 9 had been a research chemist, and thought he wanted to teach. Everyone had to take general science, and this class was about half those who wanted to learn, 1/4 who didn't care, and 1/4 who really didn't want to be there. And that 1/4 was all guys, and they were mostly already bigger than the teacher. They made his life, and our class, a living hell for the first few weeks. He went back to research after that year.
What made it work for the rest of the year, was that the keeners who had sat at the front (by choice) got moved to the back, and the back row (the jerks) got moved to the very front. That meant he saw everything they did, and they lost most of their audience, since to see the rest of the class's reaction to their wonderful stupidity they had to turn around, and then they couldn't see him. Of course this is harder to do if seating is mandatory. It was also hard on the keeners, since in a mixed ability/interest class like this, everything gets gone over 3 times. I got a lot of extra reading done sitting in the back row ;-(
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It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.
BPA's story enrages me.
You don't hear stories of male teachers getting abused because they barely exist. Most male employees are junior high or high school coaches that are forced to be teachers. They typically suck* and just pass kids along and don't put up much of a fuss. It is hard for students to rattle you or be disrespectful if your curriculum consists of handing out worksheets and then giving kids the answers if they ask a question and letting them watch Rudy and other sports movies on Fridays (an actual situation I encountered with a coach at a school I worked at).
Also, statistically you won't hear the stories because the ratio of male teachers to female teachers is so skewed. If you teach at a high school, male or female, you will have students attempt to verbally assault and humiliate you, unless you are just showing up to collect a check and make no attempt to hold students to any kind of standard.
*I have worked with some absolutely phenomenal teachers who were also coaches, but for the most part the stereotype holds up.
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It disturbs me that even at such a young age, boys (who are not yet even men) feel like they can humiliate and verbally attack adult women in leadership positions. I wonder if this kind of misogyny is modeled for them at home or is something that some boys just naturally embrace for a time (or forever if they are not set straight). Notice we aren't hearing stories of male teachers being abused. I do recall an older, eccentric science teacher at my middle school being made fun of, but I don't recall it being to his face.
BPA's story enrages me.
You don't hear stories of male teachers getting abused because they barely exist. Most male employees are junior high or high school coaches that are forced to be teachers. They typically suck* and just pass kids along and don't put up much of a fuss. It is hard for students to rattle you or be disrespectful if your curriculum consists of handing out worksheets and then giving kids the answers if they ask a question and letting them watch Rudy and other sports movies on Fridays (an actual situation I encountered with a coach at a school I worked at).
Also, statistically you won't hear the stories because the ratio of male teachers to female teachers is so skewed. If you teach at a high school, male or female, you will have students attempt to verbally assault and humiliate you, unless you are just showing up to collect a check and make no attempt to hold students to any kind of standard.
*I have worked with some absolutely phenomenal teachers who were also coaches, but for the most part the stereotype holds up.
My dad was a teacher and was nearly assaulted with a keyboard (computer, not musical tank goodness) , there was also the time some ex-students burned down his wing of the school.
Male teachers definitely face abuse (although it may take different forms than that directed against female teachers).