Author Topic: SO has decided to start day trading.  (Read 5290 times)

Islander

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SO has decided to start day trading.
« on: June 27, 2018, 08:09:38 AM »
Hello mustacian community,

SO has a history of gambling problems and has lost a substantial amount in the past. It got so bad I had to drag him to ban himself for 3 years (that was the maximum allowed time) We obviously don't agree with investing strategies and I believe he's gone down a slippery slope with picking single stocks and buying low selling high. He ran into a random video on Facebook and has declared he wants to start Day trading. Iam not firmilar with day trading but reading up on it signals some red flags as Iam more conservative than him and believe in long time investing with index funds/etfs.

So now Iam truly afraid where this may lead and I don't know how to approach this situation. Please help me. Is it possible that Iam over reacting?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 08:16:01 AM by Kayteekate »

daverobev

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2018, 08:19:50 AM »
You can make a successful life of day trading, but no, in your situation I'd be talking to addiction counselors or whoever you can - because day trading done wrong IS gambling. Same stuff in your head, and same bad outcomes - if you're attached to the thrill rather than a rules based system.

https://tradingsim.com/blog/is-day-trading-like-gambling/

If they are doing it on margin, you're fucked. Sorry, but there is no simpler way to put it.

Maenad

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 08:51:16 AM »
Yeah, if your SO has a history of gambling problems, this isn't good. I second the recommendation of addiction counselors, support groups, etc.

During the dot-com boom I saw a lot of people quit their jobs to be day traders, and all of them ended up back at their former professions with significantly reduced net worth. People like to talk a big game, but the likelihood that your SO will be one of the successful ones is extremely small.

Do you live together? Have mingled assets? You may need to start looking into protecting yourself (speaking from second-hand experience with gambling addiction).

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 08:55:08 AM »
IMO, day trading is gambling. 
If someone has a gambling addiction, it shouldn't be something they expose themselves to.

If someone does not- it's a fun way to play with money, if you have it to lose.

Scandium

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 08:59:47 AM »
Do you live together? Have mingled assets? You may need to start looking into protecting yourself (speaking from second-hand experience with gambling addiction).

Seriously this. If you can't get him professional help, then minimize the damage and cut off all his access to your money, or as much as you can. Make sure he don't steal your wedding ring of your finger to fund his next purchase.. Addicts will do anything for the next high, sorry "hot stock".
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:52:30 AM by Scandium »

Samuel

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2018, 09:42:04 AM »
This is gambling under a thin veneer of respectability. Someone with previous gambling issues should know better than to play with activating those circuits again. Did he ever get real treatment, or attend any support group meetings?

This is an alcoholic deciding they're going to become a sommelier. It will not end well. You're not overreacting.

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 09:56:03 AM »
No, he never did receive real treatment. I was able to get him to ban himself from the casino for 3 years and then another 3 years after that. We're at the point where I feel safe he won't step back into the casino and accepted his loss.

Iam really afraid of going through those dark times again. What starts of small quickly can quickly get out of hand. He says he plans to make $50 a day which sounded very similar to playing $20 hands at the casino at first.

I feel like I may be the enabler in his problems and Iam afraid to approach him because I already know how he will react. I feel stuck. At least our bank account are seperate. Iam not sure what to do at the moment... Iv tried sharing my knowledge in investing long term but that's failed. I guess my only option is to protect myself. What else can one do?

This is gambling under a thin veneer of respectability. Someone with previous gambling issues should know better than to play with activating those circuits again. Did he ever get real treatment, or attend any support group meetings?

This is an alcoholic deciding they're going to become a sommelier. It will not end well. You're not overreacting.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:58:12 AM by Kayteekate »

Frankies Girl

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2018, 10:30:53 AM »
No, he never did receive real treatment. I was able to get him to ban himself from the casino for 3 years and then another 3 years after that. We're at the point where I feel safe he won't step back into the casino and accepted his loss.

Iam really afraid of going through those dark times again. What starts of small quickly can quickly get out of hand. He says he plans to make $50 a day which sounded very similar to playing $20 hands at the casino at first.

I feel like I may be the enabler in his problems and Iam afraid to approach him because I already know how he will react. I feel stuck. At least our bank account are seperate. Iam not sure what to do at the moment... Iv tried sharing my knowledge in investing long term but that's failed. I guess my only option is to protect myself. What else can one do?

This is gambling under a thin veneer of respectability. Someone with previous gambling issues should know better than to play with activating those circuits again. Did he ever get real treatment, or attend any support group meetings?

This is an alcoholic deciding they're going to become a sommelier. It will not end well. You're not overreacting.

If he is unwilling to stop this cycle, and he's unwilling to discuss going to a professional that deals with addictive behaviors and truly work on this... then what you do is leave.

He is placing his addiction - his need to feed - ahead of you and your relationship. It really is that simple.

If you are unable to tell him that you are scared and don't want him to do this, then you know deep down that you've already lost him. You say you know how he will react - that he'll likely dismiss your fears, probably belittle them and you and argue that he is in control and it is just a little fun for him. But if you tell him that you are not willing to go through the fear, uncertainty and heartbreak that he put you through the last time and he legit argues/belittles you for this? Then you need to break up, and get help yourself to work through the feelings and deal with being in a relationship with an addict that refuses to get help.

So what you do is this:

Tell him that you believe with his past history of gambling addiction, that day trading is not something he should be touching at all. It scares you and you are not willing to lose him to that addiction again so this is you drawing a line - you love him and are asking him to not do this at all and leave this and other addictive gambling ventures completely, 100% alone. You are asking him to choose: you or this path. If he chooses to argue, get angry or otherwise says ANYTHING other than an iteration of "I'm so sorry. I didn't realize how strongly you felt about this. I may not agree, but I love you too and I won't pursue this any more," then you break up. Get your stuff organized, separate what needs to be separated and get into counseling for yourself to deal with this.

And you also need to get him to start seeing a counselor for gamblers - make this a condition to staying with him (there are Gamblers Anonymous groups, but I know nothing about them; suggest you seek a counselor that deals specifically with gambling addictions and go from there). If he doesn't get this treated, then you'll continue on this stupid, senseless path every time he weakens after finding something new like day trading (or worse, he starts gambling secretly).


Imma

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 10:34:28 AM »
No, he never did receive real treatment. I was able to get him to ban himself from the casino for 3 years and then another 3 years after that. We're at the point where I feel safe he won't step back into the casino and accepted his loss.

Iam really afraid of going through those dark times again. What starts of small quickly can quickly get out of hand. He says he plans to make $50 a day which sounded very similar to playing $20 hands at the casino at first.

I feel like I may be the enabler in his problems and Iam afraid to approach him because I already know how he will react. I feel stuck. At least our bank account are seperate. Iam not sure what to do at the moment... Iv tried sharing my knowledge in investing long term but that's failed. I guess my only option is to protect myself. What else can one do?

This is gambling under a thin veneer of respectability. Someone with previous gambling issues should know better than to play with activating those circuits again. Did he ever get real treatment, or attend any support group meetings?

This is an alcoholic deciding they're going to become a sommelier. It will not end well. You're not overreacting.

Good to hear your bank accounts are separate. Are you 100% certain he doesn't have access to them? ( for example, we have separate accounts, but I've written down login details for my s/o in case of emergency ) Do you have any joints assets that he has access to or that he could use as collateral for a loan without your permission?

Seriously, I believe freedom is important in relationships, but if I were you I would sit down with him and say "hey, remember when you were gambling and how that led to problems X, Y and Z? " and tell him you're not OK with him starting gambling all over again. Don't make threats you're not willing to go through with, but I would seriously reconsider the future of my relationship if I was in your shoes.

A good friend of mine was married to a gambling addict. He was a poker player, so I know the "it's not really gambling, it's a skill, I'm watching youtube video's to progress" stories. It doesn't work like that if you're an addict. They ended up with literally nothing and debts everywhere, also in her name. They divorced, she rebuilt her life and is doing well. I still hear stories about him every now and then because he's still in the same town, but he has been homeless for years and has tried every "get rich quick" scheme in the book (mainly of the illegal kind) to get more money to gamble away.

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 10:46:14 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines of communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 10:51:05 AM by Kayteekate »

Frankies Girl

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 10:55:48 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines on communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.

No. Any amount is too much. You are enabling and making excuses because you're scared of confronting him. I am so sorry you're in this position, but you have to stop hiding and avoiding dealing with this.

I wasn't aware you have children - that is just heartbreaking. You need to get into counseling ASAP and find your voice to tell him emphatically "there is no small amount that is acceptable. You have to stop and get professional counseling, or we're finished."

Get help. Find your voice. Put your foot down. He doesn't get to call the shots with this type of thing. It's the same as if you were saying that he's "only" had 4 drinks so he's probably safe to drive and he says he's only going a mile down the road. Any amount is too dangerous and if you're too afraid to confront him with love and firmness, then your relationship is already in dire straights and you need to get out.

Scandium

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 10:55:50 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines of communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.

Would you be comfortable sending him to a casino with "only $15k"?
Except it's slightly worse because it's a casino that's directly linked to your bank account. And you can go there on your phone/without leaving your couch.

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 11:06:39 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines of communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.
I feel for you. You're in a tough spot with two young kids and a partner who has addiction problems.

The bolded stuck out to me. Why do you need to wait for the moment to "feel right?" This is a big, big deal. You shouldn't have to wait to talk about important issues with your partner.

Frankie, as always, gave you great advice. If you think you've been an enabler you probably need counseling as well. No, I take that back. You need counseling regardless. Use your EAP if you have one, find a group for co-dependent spouses or talk with your minister. Just, please, get some outside help and perspective.

FINate

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 11:45:20 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines on communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.

No. Any amount is too much. You are enabling and making excuses because you're scared of confronting him. I am so sorry you're in this position, but you have to stop hiding and avoiding dealing with this.

I wasn't aware you have children - that is just heartbreaking. You need to get into counseling ASAP and find your voice to tell him emphatically "there is no small amount that is acceptable. You have to stop and get professional counseling, or we're finished."

Get help. Find your voice. Put your foot down. He doesn't get to call the shots with this type of thing. It's the same as if you were saying that he's "only" had 4 drinks so he's probably safe to drive and he says he's only going a mile down the road. Any amount is too dangerous and if you're too afraid to confront him with love and firmness, then your relationship is already in dire straights and you need to get out.

THIS^^^

Very sorry you're in this situation, it sucks, really does. But any delay dealing this this head-on will only cause the problem to grow exponentially, and in the end you'll have to make the ultimatum anyway, except by then you and your family will be much worse off.

Depending on your specific state laws, you may be on the hook for debts he incurs while married. Can very quickly lose massive amounts day trading, and his addition means he'll get creative getting funds anyway possible to feed his addiction. You'll lose your home, your assets...will need to start over from zero with your children.

This is not up for debate or discussion, addiction is not logical. The fact that he didn't get real help earlier is a huge red flag... classic addictive behavior to think it's not a problem or something that can be managed.

alanB

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 03:10:33 PM »
If he has not started yet, now is the time to shut it down.  It is not too difficult to get some easy wins day trading and get overconfident.  Even doing simulated trading would probably be too much of a trigger for a gambling addict.  It is even worse than traditional gambling since the illusion of control is so strong.  I would say you are still under-reacting.  Just be confident and remember that all of the anonymous people on this forum on your side :) :)

MrSal

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 05:49:24 PM »
No, he never did receive real treatment. I was able to get him to ban himself from the casino for 3 years and then another 3 years after that. We're at the point where I feel safe he won't step back into the casino and accepted his loss.

Iam really afraid of going through those dark times again. What starts of small quickly can quickly get out of hand. He says he plans to make $50 a day which sounded very similar to playing $20 hands at the casino at first.

I feel like I may be the enabler in his problems and Iam afraid to approach him because I already know how he will react. I feel stuck. At least our bank account are seperate. Iam not sure what to do at the moment... Iv tried sharing my knowledge in investing long term but that's failed. I guess my only option is to protect myself. What else can one do?

This is gambling under a thin veneer of respectability. Someone with previous gambling issues should know better than to play with activating those circuits again. Did he ever get real treatment, or attend any support group meetings?

This is an alcoholic deciding they're going to become a sommelier. It will not end well. You're not overreacting.

I worked for a fund where we used lots of strategies, day trading being one of them, along with other time frames ...

I can say the following ... all the traders I have met in my life, not a single one of them has ever played in a casino. Why? Because we know it's a game of negative expectancy (mathematical fancy way of saying it is a losing game)... the stacks are against you.

The fact your SO didn't realize this ever and fell prey, I fear that he would fall on other fallacies - which are very numerous - in the trading/investing world ...

If adding $$ to a losing ETF of a broad market is fine and actually desirable in a DCA strategy, doing so in individual instruments - like a stock - can lead you to blow up your portfolio or worse all your savings ...

I have seen a bunch of people that invested in big name household companies that were deemed as impossible to fail - and people invested because "Hey it's fallen 60% already it cannot fall much more..." only to see the same stock fall 60% 5 more times, and some even reach completely to 0.

A lot of the fallacies is just that, the aversion of a loss, makes the person add more money into a "falling knife" in order to recover from that loss quicker - if I bought at 50 and it's now at 20 ... let's double down and put more money and lower the average price, then the stock only needs to go up 30% instead of 150% in order to break even..."

Such reasonings, are a recipe for disaster...

And believe me, gambling is a really really disaster thing... My stepfather , well ex stepfather, was/is a gambler ... and he has wasted/spent hunderds of thousands!

I second the whole thing of checking your assets and a double signature accounts... my stepfather, for example, after being interdict from accounts and all assets in a company, he used a land that was in his sole name, and sold it without anyone knowing... he blew it in a week!

It was 500k that land was sold...

Of course my mother divorced him after many times to try to recover him... I felt really bad because I truly really liked him and he was the nicest guy - we are still good friends and I see him everytime i go back to my country - but I understood my mother's perspective.

Also, my great uncle, he pretty much blew my grandmothers fortune away gambling as well... My family had a castle in Europe, and since he was the elder son, my grandmother being woman at the time, didn't have authority ... He gambled the family's castle away ...

Day trading is fine if you know what you are doing, however, with his past behaviour I would say his chances of ever making it are very slim... if chances are already slim for majority of people, I can't even imagine for someone that has a gambler's mentality. The risk is too high, especially if he has access to margin.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:59:25 PM by MrSal »

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 07:12:51 PM »
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. I know what needs to be done, I have to muster up the courage and bring it up to him. Like I previously mentioned I already know what I will be faced with. It really saddens me because he will also mention that Iam investing as well and that to him is essentially gambling as well then. There will be many arguments ahead. Please pray for me!

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2018, 07:25:34 PM »
Get some IRL support if you don't have any. Remember - you're not just taking care of yourself, you're taking care of your kids. Use that knowledge to give you strength.

MrSal

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2018, 09:44:47 PM »
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. I know what needs to be done, I have to muster up the courage and bring it up to him. Like I previously mentioned I already know what I will be faced with. It really saddens me because he will also mention that Iam investing as well and that to him is essentially gambling as well then. There will be many arguments ahead. Please pray for me!

investing is not gambling... especially if it's broad market funds/ETFs ... you are simply putting your money in the producers of economy. Since an economy cannot go to 0, that's the reason why Dollar Cost Averaging has no risk and is actually encouraged ... no matter what, there will always be companies going into the SP500 that replace the bankrupt ones.

Sure we can imagine a world of SP500 at 0 but that would probably be some kind of Madmax World scenario or armaggedon ...and in that situation who cares about $$.

Imma

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2018, 12:20:34 AM »
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. I know what needs to be done, I have to muster up the courage and bring it up to him. Like I previously mentioned I already know what I will be faced with. It really saddens me because he will also mention that Iam investing as well and that to him is essentially gambling as well then. There will be many arguments ahead. Please pray for me!

If that's how he's going to react that means he either has absolutely no idea what he's talking about (and that's dangerous when you're doing a high-risk activity like day trading)  or it's a way to stop you nagging. Like how kids react with "but YOU do ....."  when you tell them off. When he's attacking you, he can conveniently avoid talking about his own problem.

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2018, 01:44:36 AM »
Yes, I agree with pretty much every response Iv received on this post. i think what I need to do is see a counsellor. Like a previous  poster mentioned I may have already lost him to this addiction because I already know his reaction when the time comes for me to bring up my concern. Iv gone through it once with this person and Iam not ready to go through it again, Iam finished. (Easier said than done)

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2018, 05:57:31 AM »
Right. So what I will do in the mean time is start separating what I can to protect myself and my 2 young children.

When the next opportunity feels right I will bring it up with him about my concern and will go from there and see where that leads too.

I want to leave the lines of communication open because I don't want him hiding anything from me so Iam afraid of giving him an ultimatum at this point.  He did mention he is only playing with 15k and nothing more. Is it fair to let him play with that amount and only bring up my concern if he increases that amount? Really unsure about this plan but like pp mentioned Iv already lost him if I know his reaction when I bring up the problem.

Well, it appears he doesn't yet understand even the basics of day trading. You can't really day trade with $15k. $25k is the minimum you need to have and maintain be a pattern day trader:
Quote
You will be considered a pattern day trader if you trade four or more times in five business days and your day-trading activities are greater than six percent of your total trading activity for that same five-day period.

That's one day-trade per day, and most day traders make many more. With $15k, you can't do it at all - the law doesn't allow you to. So then you're limited to 3 trades per week. Of course, without a margin account, he'd them be stuck with the T+3 rule which would make day-trading even harder.  With a margin account, he could actually trade more than he has in the account, making the risk even higher.

Oh, and about the risk, the overwhelming majority of day-traders are not successful (9X% fail, i.e. end up losing money long-term, according to the studies I've read). Of those that are successful, many still would have made more money by just investing in an index fund because while they did make money, it wasn't much.

No way a person with a gambling problem should be trying to day-trade or even swing-trade.

chasesfish

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2018, 06:00:28 AM »
I'm sorry for what you're going through.

If it were NOT for the prior history of the gambling addition, I'd say separate it out, give him a small account, "play" money, ect.  I've done some occasional "trading",  but have a finance degree, studied this stuff for 20 years, and already a millionaire (and I still can't beat the market consistently). 

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2018, 06:32:42 AM »
Iam living in Canada, does anyone know if its possible to borrow against your home without consent of the other coowner? (both our name are on title)

This situation is a lot more than I can handle.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 06:49:05 AM by Kayteekate »

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2018, 07:10:05 AM »
You are dealing with addiction.  Your husband will empty your savings, including your retirement accounts, because he is sure the big win is right around the corner.  In the US, it would be difficult to get a loan on the property without your signature, but addicts will result to anything, including fraud, to feed their addiction.  It's unlikely, but if he were successful at draining the equity, you could press criminal charges, but you would not get your money back.  You need a divorce attorney now.

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2018, 07:42:33 AM »
Iam living in Canada, does anyone know if its possible to borrow against your home without consent of the other coowner? (both our name are on title)

This situation is a lot more than I can handle.

If you have this many worries with him trying to get money from your home or retirement accounts or anywhere, it is time to get counseling, see a lawyer or split from him. You can't live like this day in and day out not being able to trust him. I didn't work my whole life and save money like a maniac to have the money frittered away with pie in the sky dreams. Marriage or a relationship is built on trust and care not what you are going thru. You better take charge of this quickly before he does some serious damage you cannot reverse.

If you have a home equity loan in place, I think he can write a check on the account. If there is no home equity loan, I don't think he can take out a loan without your signature. However, see a lawyer on this.

Good luck to you and I hope you can talk some sense into him.

talltexan

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2018, 08:19:14 AM »
I'm worried you're going to have a conversation with him and not be able to dissuade him. Is it possible to extract some kind of commitment that he will show you the account login info and all trades? Could the knowledge that you are able to see his moves moderate his choices?

I don't have any expertise with addiction, but it seems as though you want to save this marriage.

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2018, 09:30:40 AM »
Another reason I find it so difficult to have the conversation with him is that it always leads back to him saying "well Iam making money, Iam up" It feels almost impossible to talk logic into him no matter how much info I try to provide or sending him links to mmm blog, jlcollins, etc. It's just been a lot of casual talks that lead to a dead end but Iam feeling I have to make a drastic stance soon here and telling him I won't stand by and let him continue. I have myself and 2 kids I need to take care of.

If I can talk some reason into him, get him to transfer most of his funds into my account, possibly even getting him to close down his brokerage account, then will I only feel safe and secure. That's a lot to ask though isn't it? It's either that or I may have to walk away from this relationship because as I said before Iam not willing or able or ready to go through those very dark moments in the past. Dealing with a suicidal depressed person. I honestly felt like I tried as much as I could to save him but if someone is going to do that to them self again, it's something I cannot deal with. Is this selfish of me? I feel guilty as everything in our life is perfect at the moment but as everyone's here has discussed we all know where this can lead. The risk is not worth it when you have a family and children to take care of.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 09:41:12 AM by Kayteekate »

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2018, 09:53:57 AM »
You're dealing with an addict. There is no logic there. You both need professional help. Please, please seek this out as soon as possible.

Imma

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2018, 10:16:12 AM »
It's not selfish to prioritize your wellbeing and that of your children over the wellbeing of someone struggling with addiction, who doesn't want to be helped.

You've saved him once before and that's more than you owe him. You can't talk sense into someone who has an addiction, it's part of the condition. Until he realises he has a problem and needs help, because he is addicted and his thought patterns are irrational, this situation is never going to improve. If he stopped day trading today, and chooses to not have any treatment, would your trust return, 100%? Of course not.

FINate

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2018, 10:22:28 AM »
Another reason I find it so difficult to have the conversation with him is that it always leads back to him saying "well Iam making money, Iam up" It feels almost impossible to talk logic into him no matter how much info I try to provide or sending him links to mmm blog, jlcollins, etc. It's just been a lot of casual talks that lead to a dead end but Iam feeling I have to make a drastic stance soon here and telling him I won't stand by and let him continue. I have myself and 2 kids I need to take care of.

If I can talk some reason into him, get him to transfer most of his funds into my account, possibly even getting him to close down his brokerage account, then will I only feel safe and secure. That's a lot to ask though isn't it? It's either that or I may have to walk away from this relationship because as I said before Iam not willing or able or ready to go through those very dark moments in the past. Dealing with a suicidal depressed person. I honestly felt like I tried as much as I could to save him but if someone is going to do that to them self again, it's something I cannot deal with. Is this selfish of me? I feel guilty as everything in our life is perfect at the moment but as everyone's here has discussed we all know where this can lead. The risk is not worth it when you have a family and children to take care of.

A focus on closing his brokerage account and/or transferring funds to your account doesn't get to the core of the issue. This is what happened when his gambling problem first surfaced and he banned himself from the casinos yet did not get professional help. Essentially, you are now dealing with this unresolved issue in the sense that he still doesn't see that he has a problem. And very likely you're dealing with codependency as well, perhaps a strong instinct to want to fix the problem and be the peace maker.

What you're really looking for here is repentance. Sorry, I know that's a "religious" word, but it's the right term. It just means "to turn back" and true repentance has two components: 1) Owning up to the problem - sounds easy but is difficult as it requires humility - a willingness to accept that there's a problem that cannot be fixed without outside help. 2) Commitment to sustained action to keep going in the right direction - this doesn't mean perfection, there will be slip ups, but it again requires humility to take concrete steps to counteract the problem.

The first step for your SO is to admit that there's a gambling addiction and that he needs professional help. [This also includes you seeking professional help, which is sounds like you're ready to do]. Then it requires actually going out and getting the professional help - not to appease you, but because he knows he needs it. And, yes, he needs to close his brokerage account(s). And he needs to accept that it will never be safe or healthy for him to engage in activities with a gambling-like component (day trading, speculative investing, lottery, scratchers, bingo, gaming, poker, visiting Vegas or other such places). And he has to commit to disclosing all slip ups with you and then taking active steps to prevent these in the future. Also means he should delegate all of your family's investing to you. This is not a one-and-done kinda thing...requires a life long commitment  to change and, again, lots of humility, vulnerability, and openness.

I would avoid making assumptions about how he'll react to this. You can't mind read, can't predict the future. I would approach him in good faith, give him an opportunity to change. But make sure it's real change, and be ready and prepared to break things off if necessary.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 10:34:01 AM by FINate »

Rubic

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2018, 10:26:39 AM »
I have a family member with addictive tendencies and a similar
story.  Switched from casino gambling to day trading because it's
more "respectable".  Can't talk to him during market hours because
he's constantly engrossed with his monitors.

Agree with the other posters on this thread.  Please seek help.

Islander

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2018, 11:21:28 AM »
Thank you for this, it has given me courage.

Another reason I find it so difficult to have the conversation with him is that it always leads back to him saying "well Iam making money, Iam up" It feels almost impossible to talk logic into him no matter how much info I try to provide or sending him links to mmm blog, jlcollins, etc. It's just been a lot of casual talks that lead to a dead end but Iam feeling I have to make a drastic stance soon here and telling him I won't stand by and let him continue. I have myself and 2 kids I need to take care of.

If I can talk some reason into him, get him to transfer most of his funds into my account, possibly even getting him to close down his brokerage account, then will I only feel safe and secure. That's a lot to ask though isn't it? It's either that or I may have to walk away from this relationship because as I said before Iam not willing or able or ready to go through those very dark moments in the past. Dealing with a suicidal depressed person. I honestly felt like I tried as much as I could to save him but if someone is going to do that to them self again, it's something I cannot deal with. Is this selfish of me? I feel guilty as everything in our life is perfect at the moment but as everyone's here has discussed we all know where this can lead. The risk is not worth it when you have a family and children to take care of.

A focus on closing his brokerage account and/or transferring funds to your account doesn't get to the core of the issue. This is what happened when his gambling problem first surfaced and he banned himself from the casinos yet did not get professional help. Essentially, you are now dealing with this unresolved issue in the sense that he still doesn't see that he has a problem. And very likely you're dealing with codependency as well, perhaps a strong instinct to want to fix the problem and be the peace maker.

What you're really looking for here is repentance. Sorry, I know that's a "religious" word, but it's the right term. It just means "to turn back" and true repentance has two components: 1) Owning up to the problem - sounds easy but is difficult as it requires humility - a willingness to accept that there's a problem that cannot be fixed without outside help. 2) Commitment to sustained action to keep going in the right direction - this doesn't mean perfection, there will be slip ups, but it again requires humility to take concrete steps to counteract the problem.

The first step for your SO is to admit that there's a gambling addiction and that he needs professional help. [This also includes you seeking professional help, which is sounds like you're ready to do]. Then it requires actually going out and getting the professional help - not to appease you, but because he knows he needs it. And, yes, he needs to close his brokerage account(s). And he needs to accept that it will never be safe or healthy for him to engage in activities with a gambling-like component (day trading, speculative investing, lottery, scratchers, bingo, gaming, poker, visiting Vegas or other such places). And he has to commit to disclosing all slip ups with you and then taking active steps to prevent these in the future. Also means he should delegate all of your family's investing to you. This is not a one-and-done kinda thing...requires a life long commitment  to change and, again, lots of humility, vulnerability, and openness.

I would avoid making assumptions about how he'll react to this. You can't mind read, can't predict the future. I would approach him in good faith, give him an opportunity to change. But make sure it's real change, and be ready and prepared to break things off if necessary.

Trying2bFrugal

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2018, 12:26:00 PM »
Hello mustacian community,

SO has a history of gambling problems and has lost a substantial amount in the past. It got so bad I had to drag him to ban himself for 3 years (that was the maximum allowed time) We obviously don't agree with investing strategies and I believe he's gone down a slippery slope with picking single stocks and buying low selling high. He ran into a random video on Facebook and has declared he wants to start Day trading. Iam not firmilar with day trading but reading up on it signals some red flags as Iam more conservative than him and believe in long time investing with index funds/etfs.

So now Iam truly afraid where this may lead and I don't know how to approach this situation. Please help me. Is it possible that Iam over reacting?

I like to gamble in casinos usually had luck. But the addiction is bad. I no more do gambling or trading as I am happy with what i have.

I used to invest in stocks, later short term, then it became same day trading (Day trading) and at one point i was doing scalping (within minutes trade for profit). I did Big time for the money i invested vs leveraged.

Lets just say I didnt loose money but the level of addiction it will get you is 10 times more than casino as here you arent even holding the plastic coins. In digital world it drags you and takes you to deeper down with 'leveraging'.

Day trading needs no emotion, like a zen buddist. If someone gets tricked in gambling with addiction, he is not fit for day trading.

With understanding of you stated about SO, in one word 'AVOID'.

But making him understand it is very difficult. I have seen people go to betting when they blocked online trading.

Usually the people get lost where the ones emotionally imbalanced. May be a open talk about what is important in life and whats the safe plan in current situation would change. May be take him out for a vacation so you dont put more stress to him.

If he is not listening to you, even professional counsel or family friend can talk. Remember its talking both sides, not advicing him.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 12:39:59 PM by Trying2bFrugal »

J Boogie

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2018, 01:09:18 PM »
Does anyone remember a thread not long about an overweight spouse whose poor health landed them in the hospital? The MMM forum went really hard on the husband, saying he was the one with the problem because he was trying to control her (I'm not saying he wasn't - the phone call to her employer did seem overboard, but given her health might have been warranted). Many people commented insulting him and his approach to marriage and personal autonomy. The majority of commentators said that he needed to be more sensitive of her addiction and stop patting himself on the back for his various attempts to cajole her into a more active lifestyle and healthy diet.

Why are we acting so much different here? Maybe there are different people replying. Heart disease kills 375,000 Americans a year, yet we recommended the OP back off and let his wife change her behavior on her own.

This man has his own bank account and we're encouraging his wife to give him an ultimatum to no longer have autonomy in how he chooses to spend his money.

I get it. We're the MMM forum. We don't believe in day trading. And I know day trading reeks of gambling - hell, for most people it is gambling. And while we know he has a bad history with gambling, we honestly don't know that he doesn't have a methodology that he follows. We're not the professionals that can determine whether or not he needs to go cold turkey or will be able to have his fun within pre set limitations (as well as expectations and consequences, close monitoring of credit inquiries  to act as a backstop etc).

By all means, express your concerns OP. Insist on couples counseling with a professional who deals with addiction/gambling. But take a deep breath people. Their accounts are already separate. They have young kids. We don't know the nuances of the situation and an extremely aggressive approach here could alienate and potentially backfire, just like the situation with the obese spouse. OP has clearly handled things well in the past with getting her husband to agree to back to back 3 year casino bans.

If he's already gone belly up and tried to borrow money, or he's completely blown a fuse when you've brought up your concerns, or if he's lied, disregard what I'm saying and go with the most aggressive reply on here. It sounds like he hasn't done those things yet, so I think you can use diplomacy and professional help to find a way for you and your husband to be happy and healthy.






FINate

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »
I remember that thread.

Being "lazy, unmotivated" (OP's opening sentence on that thread) and failing to take care of one's health is not the same as addiction. People talk about being addicted to carbs/sugar/fat/whatever, and there's some truth to this in how the brain's reward center is involved, but a carb addiction doesn't usually take over the way it does for things like gambling or hard drugs. It can, in extreme cases of morbid obesity where people become shut-ins because they cannot get up and/or cannot leave the house - but this requires an enabling partner (someone to do the shopping and prepare food for them) so the obvious thing is to stop the enabling behavior. But there was no indication on the unhealthy wife thread that this was the case.

OP of this thread is very possibly looking at a future of destitution with her kids if this isn't dealt with. Whereas the unhealthy wife is looking at major health issues (probably sooner rather than later) and perhaps an early death which will be costly, but this will be mostly covered by insurance. Also, divorcing an unhealthy spouse doesn't actually solve anything, doesn't spare the kids the trauma of losing their mom (per OPs justification) and instead layers on an additional trauma of divorce.

Finally, I think people on that other thread were reacting to the level of contempt OP had for his wife, whereas OP of this thread is keeping the conversation focused on his behaviors rather than calling him names (lazy, unmotivated) or going behind his back to his supervisor, things like that.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 06:15:29 PM by FINate »

alanB

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2018, 07:54:47 AM »
Does anyone remember a thread not long about an overweight spouse whose poor health landed them in the hospital? The MMM forum went really hard on the husband [...]

Yes, that guy also got a ton of good free advice.  The OP of each thread needs to carefully read every response and see if it adequately addresses their problems or if more context is needed.  Without sufficient background people will fill in the blanks with their imagination and bias.  If individual posters jumped to the wrong conclusion, there is no harm done, just move on.  Someone else reading that might find it an insightful reflection of their own unspoken dilemma and benefit.  In any case, the process works.

J Boogie

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2018, 08:46:59 AM »
I remember that thread.

Being "lazy, unmotivated" (OP's opening sentence on that thread) and failing to take care of one's health is not the same as addiction. People talk about being addicted to carbs/sugar/fat/whatever, and there's some truth to this in how the brain's reward center is involved, but a carb addiction doesn't usually take over the way it does for things like gambling or hard drugs. It can, in extreme cases of morbid obesity where people become shut-ins because they cannot get up and/or cannot leave the house - but this requires an enabling partner (someone to do the shopping and prepare food for them) so the obvious thing is to stop the enabling behavior. But there was no indication on the unhealthy wife thread that this was the case.

OP of this thread is very possibly looking at a future of destitution with her kids if this isn't dealt with. Whereas the unhealthy wife is looking at major health issues (probably sooner rather than later) and perhaps an early death which will be costly, but this will be mostly covered by insurance. Also, divorcing an unhealthy spouse doesn't actually solve anything, doesn't spare the kids the trauma of losing their mom (per OPs justification) and instead layers on an additional trauma of divorce.

Finally, I think people on that other thread were reacting to the level of contempt OP had for his wife, whereas OP of this thread is keeping the conversation focused on his behaviors rather than calling him names (lazy, unmotivated) or going behind his back to his supervisor, things like that.

Yeah, there are definitely some key differences between the tone of the OP and the ramifications of the addiction/affliction their SO struggles with. I also think obesity is one of those frog in the boiling water scenarios where the warning signs are very gradual and addressing them is fraught with peril. Coupled with the insane abundance of households that include obese family members, and it doesn't scream "crisis" though it can lead to early death, lower quality of life, less physical attraction which can easily lead to less intimacy and marriage issues, as well as issues for the children and the habits they adopt.

So the way I see it is, if measures can be put in place to limit someone's individual access to funds & credit, then gambling addiction isn't as dire of a situation.

I'm not sure if the technology exists at this point to effectively do that, but these days it seems like it really should be possible. I think it's just a shame that an otherwise solid marriage (as far as we know) would come to an end over something that could potentially be managed.



FINate

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2018, 09:51:55 AM »
I remember that thread.

Being "lazy, unmotivated" (OP's opening sentence on that thread) and failing to take care of one's health is not the same as addiction. People talk about being addicted to carbs/sugar/fat/whatever, and there's some truth to this in how the brain's reward center is involved, but a carb addiction doesn't usually take over the way it does for things like gambling or hard drugs. It can, in extreme cases of morbid obesity where people become shut-ins because they cannot get up and/or cannot leave the house - but this requires an enabling partner (someone to do the shopping and prepare food for them) so the obvious thing is to stop the enabling behavior. But there was no indication on the unhealthy wife thread that this was the case.

OP of this thread is very possibly looking at a future of destitution with her kids if this isn't dealt with. Whereas the unhealthy wife is looking at major health issues (probably sooner rather than later) and perhaps an early death which will be costly, but this will be mostly covered by insurance. Also, divorcing an unhealthy spouse doesn't actually solve anything, doesn't spare the kids the trauma of losing their mom (per OPs justification) and instead layers on an additional trauma of divorce.

Finally, I think people on that other thread were reacting to the level of contempt OP had for his wife, whereas OP of this thread is keeping the conversation focused on his behaviors rather than calling him names (lazy, unmotivated) or going behind his back to his supervisor, things like that.

Yeah, there are definitely some key differences between the tone of the OP and the ramifications of the addiction/affliction their SO struggles with. I also think obesity is one of those frog in the boiling water scenarios where the warning signs are very gradual and addressing them is fraught with peril. Coupled with the insane abundance of households that include obese family members, and it doesn't scream "crisis" though it can lead to early death, lower quality of life, less physical attraction which can easily lead to less intimacy and marriage issues, as well as issues for the children and the habits they adopt.

So the way I see it is, if measures can be put in place to limit someone's individual access to funds & credit, then gambling addiction isn't as dire of a situation.

I'm not sure if the technology exists at this point to effectively do that, but these days it seems like it really should be possible. I think it's just a shame that an otherwise solid marriage (as far as we know) would come to an end over something that could potentially be managed.

It's a shame and I think there should be a genuine effort to save the marriage, but this is not a simple matter of applying technology. Technology cannot protect a family's finances from a spouse who doesn't want to change (or doesn't think they need to change). This is a legal problem of how finances and liabilities are bound together in marriage.

Should also be noted that we go into marriage with the understanding that going through death is part of the deal. A SO with an unhealthy lifestyle will bring this quicker than expected, but it's still part of the agreement.

So the issue for me is not the addiction, per se, but rather the possibility that the SO refuses to deal with the addiction and severely harms his family in the process. IMO, if he's willing to own it, seek professional help, and commit to lasting change then this is the preferred outcome.

J Boogie

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2018, 11:25:51 AM »
I remember that thread.

Being "lazy, unmotivated" (OP's opening sentence on that thread) and failing to take care of one's health is not the same as addiction. People talk about being addicted to carbs/sugar/fat/whatever, and there's some truth to this in how the brain's reward center is involved, but a carb addiction doesn't usually take over the way it does for things like gambling or hard drugs. It can, in extreme cases of morbid obesity where people become shut-ins because they cannot get up and/or cannot leave the house - but this requires an enabling partner (someone to do the shopping and prepare food for them) so the obvious thing is to stop the enabling behavior. But there was no indication on the unhealthy wife thread that this was the case.

OP of this thread is very possibly looking at a future of destitution with her kids if this isn't dealt with. Whereas the unhealthy wife is looking at major health issues (probably sooner rather than later) and perhaps an early death which will be costly, but this will be mostly covered by insurance. Also, divorcing an unhealthy spouse doesn't actually solve anything, doesn't spare the kids the trauma of losing their mom (per OPs justification) and instead layers on an additional trauma of divorce.

Finally, I think people on that other thread were reacting to the level of contempt OP had for his wife, whereas OP of this thread is keeping the conversation focused on his behaviors rather than calling him names (lazy, unmotivated) or going behind his back to his supervisor, things like that.

Yeah, there are definitely some key differences between the tone of the OP and the ramifications of the addiction/affliction their SO struggles with. I also think obesity is one of those frog in the boiling water scenarios where the warning signs are very gradual and addressing them is fraught with peril. Coupled with the insane abundance of households that include obese family members, and it doesn't scream "crisis" though it can lead to early death, lower quality of life, less physical attraction which can easily lead to less intimacy and marriage issues, as well as issues for the children and the habits they adopt.

So the way I see it is, if measures can be put in place to limit someone's individual access to funds & credit, then gambling addiction isn't as dire of a situation.

I'm not sure if the technology exists at this point to effectively do that, but these days it seems like it really should be possible. I think it's just a shame that an otherwise solid marriage (as far as we know) would come to an end over something that could potentially be managed.

It's a shame and I think there should be a genuine effort to save the marriage, but this is not a simple matter of applying technology. Technology cannot protect a family's finances from a spouse who doesn't want to change (or doesn't think they need to change). This is a legal problem of how finances and liabilities are bound together in marriage.

IMO, if he's willing to own it, seek professional help, and commit to lasting change then this is the preferred outcome.

You're probably right, I don't know all that much about the legal options available and how the gambler might act when trying to overcome the hurdles to get cash.

All the best to the OP. It's a tough situation to navigate.

talltexan

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2018, 11:37:52 AM »
The HISTORY of gambling problems matters here. That history means that OP must show additional risk-aversion.

PDXTabs

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2018, 10:54:12 AM »
This is hard. My step-dad was a gambling (as well as drug) addict. You an be a professional gambler, or a professional day trader, just as much as you can be a quantitative analyst and start a hedge fund. But not if you are an addict, because you need to think with your head and not lose your cool.

Slowtraveler

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2018, 08:15:13 PM »
Assuming no gambling propensity..Day trading with a barbell strategy would be okay. Or with a small, fixed percentage of income that doesn't increase. Like 10% of his pay can be sent to a separate account for his day trading and grow from there. If it goes to 0, no more added.

That said, I have a friend in his early 20's who owes 30k on a trading debt. Apparently, he was day trading on margin and had a 50k debt built up. He's already on his way to paying it off...

I read this and while I understand the point, it's simply inaccurate and leads to damaging thinking: "Since an economy cannot go to 0, that's the reason why Dollar Cost Averaging has no risk and is actually encouraged"

Risk always exists. You could be buying into a declining economy that stays far lower than you bought into for the remainder of your life. Not saying that will happen but it can. Markets have been down for decades-Buying in the last few years before the depression, you would stay in the negative for a long time, especially if you needed to withdraw and couldn't reinvest dividends. USA ceasning to be a world super power is one of the many roads to this. Everything has risk.

But it has a far higher likelihood of being worth more in 50 years than daytrading the whole time. I have to point out the no risk should be much less risk of permanent loss.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 08:23:14 PM by Slowtraveler »

dragoncar

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2018, 09:04:40 PM »
The HISTORY of gambling problems matters here. That history means that OP must show additional risk-aversion.

Precisely.  After reading the title only, my first thought was let him play with a small amount of money and after he loses it he learns his lesson.  But add a previous gamblin addiction into the mix and the fact is he’ll never learn that lesson without extra help.  One of my extended family members recently stole from his family to gamble.  He had done it previously and apparently never did follow up treatment.  If there is real addition at play, it won’t just go away on its own.

begood

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2018, 07:40:21 AM »
It sounds like any amount is too much to gamble for someone who has a history of addiction to gambling, and $15K is A LOT OF MONEY. What else could you do for your kids with fifteen THOUSAND dollars?

Are you legally married? If not, what are the common-law marriage rules for Canada? Do you have joint credit cards?

A dear friend had a super-smart engineer husband who thought he was smarter than everyone else, cool and unemotional, and therefore the perfect match for day trading. He ended up on a three-day trading bender where he lost his entire retirement savings at the time - $75K. Not so cool and unemotional then, was he? His goal going in was to secure the future of his autistic son; instead, he set the family finances back for years because not only did he lose the money, he lost the future earnings on it, and he'd paid a penalty to access the money early.

You say things are perfect now, but you seem consumed by anxiety, dread, and uncertainty.

aceyou

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Re: SO has decided to start day trading.
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2018, 09:29:31 PM »
Please take Frankie's advice. 

My friends and I played poker for income for years about a decade ago.  1 became a millionaire, two about a half million, I made about 25k (I only do this stuff as a hobby and have my own full time job/wife/kids.  The others are full time pros)

A few years ago we started doing daily fantasy sports betting as a source of income.  It's bringing in about 250k/year between the group. 

We are REALLY GOOD at math, stats, programming, and being unemotional. 

We discussed the possibility of day trading for extra income, and we decided it was WAY TOO HARD.