Author Topic: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism  (Read 14555 times)

Case

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Seeing all the posts lately about people trying to convince people to convert, having trouble talking to people about MMM, etc...

It just reminds me of my days in college with born-again-Christianity*.

Most people don't like to be told that Christ is Lord and then asked to come to a bible study later that night.  Most people don't want to be told they are going to hell.  And I would guess that most people on this site are not religious, and perhaps even are annoyed by religion and especially by evangelists.

Yet there seems to a lot of activity of people getting in everyone else's business about their financial/life choices.

People, leave the non-converts alone!  If they come to you for advice, teach em then.  Make a brief comment to the person about frugality to give them the option if you must, so that they may pursue it if interested, but then drop it.  But mustachianism is A way of life, not THE way of life.  The frugal lifestyle has some advantages, but it's not for everybody, and for some people a frugal lifestyle is non-optimal.  MMM is not a god, but he has taught a lot of people some nifty lesson, and it appears he has done that in a very non-evangelical way.

By obsessing over MMM and constantly getting in everyone's business, you make the rest of us look bad!

Rant over.

*For the record, I am frugal and non-religious, and really don't mind people that are different.  I only chose born-again Christianity as an example because it's familiar to lots of people (and is probably a common target for better or worse).  Over evangelical reasons could have been used in its place.

mozar

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 07:46:47 AM »
I think its the human way. When something works for us, we want to share. From posts on here it seems like most people back off when someone seems uninterested (unlike christian evangelists). I don't evangelize myself but as an atheist, finding this website feels similar to what people say when they found Jesus. I enjoy coming around here and talking about worshipping pete even tho I am (mostly?) joking.

Lis

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 03:44:18 PM »
I found myself thinking something like this the other day, maybe a bit more humorously but the comparisons are valid. Every time I read "MMM says this," or "But MMM says you shouldn't do that!" I chuckle to myself a little bit. The MMM way is not the only 'correct' way to live!

I'm agnostic who was sorta raised kinda Catholic-y (atheist dad and former Catholic/current agnostic mom). I view the MMM way of life similarly as I do Christianity - the broad messages are great, but when individuals start digging and taking things out of context, I tend to ignore. Broad view of Christianity - be a good person and love each other. Broad view of MMM - Live below your means, save as much as you can, and learn to be happy without consumerism. Are there extremists who don't like what I wrote above? Yes on both fronts. But meh, I'm happy with my life and that's all I ask for.

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 03:48:04 PM »
I take the approach where if someone asks me, I am more than happy to share and help them out with setting up a game plan to save more, pay off debt, invest, etc. However I will not go out of my way to tell someone they are wrong and this is the only way to approach finances.

As far as mustachianism being a religion... we do have our sacred cows ;) http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-mustachian-sacred-cows/

Trudie

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 12:09:37 PM »
Best line I ever heard in a graduation speech:  "There's nothing more obnoxious than a recently-converted anything."

Gone Fishing

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 12:16:57 PM »
:)

I'm glad you picked up on my tongue in cheek use the word "convert"!

Kaspian

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2015, 12:39:02 PM »
Ummm...  No.  We joke about it occasionally, but it's no more a religious cult than a bird-watching club, an amateur astronomer's group, or a motorcycle club.  Fervor is not to be confused with enthusiasm.

MgoSam

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2015, 12:44:50 PM »
I can kinda see what the OP is thinking. Personally I don't ever mention MMM or my ability to retire early, but oddly I am often asked about it. Most of the times it's someone I know mentioning it to me in front of a person I don't know, and of course that third person is always intrigued enough to ask. In this case, yeah I'm going to answer any questions. It truly is amazing when someone's eyes widen at the prospect of retiring earlier than 65 and once they realize that it is possible if they control their expenses.

frugalnacho

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 12:55:21 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

GuitarStv

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 01:00:00 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

Yes, this.

BlueHouse

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 01:28:55 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

Yes, this.

+1.
And another thing:  maybe the novelty of it to so many people?  Any of us can attest to the number of posts of MMM-converts who say they "never realized it was possible".  So if you compare MMM to religion, then maybe it's closer to Scientology than Christianity?  Consider how many arguments you've heard for Christianity.  I was raised with it, have heard the pleas from the faithful and I know the story.  I've also seen the evidence for fact-based science and I've made my choice.  I don't need to hear anymore and listening to the same thing over and over gets very boring. 
But if someone came to a party and starting talking about Scientology, you bet I'd listen just out of curiosity sake because I don't know much about it.  I know enough to know it's not for me, but I'm fascinated by the secrecy around it. 
Maybe Mustachianism just needs a secret handshake and a dark underbelly! 

Bobberth

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 03:11:34 PM »
This guy is a religious scholar that wrote a book at how diet plans/adherents are similar to religion.  I can see a lot of parallels to MMM.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/05/diets-are-a-lot-like-religion.html

kendallf

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 03:22:44 PM »
Maybe Mustachianism just needs a secret handshake and a dark underbelly!

Can somebody recruit Katie Holmes?  Please?

To the OP: you sound like you're referring specifically to threads on this forum.  There's a considerable difference between trying to tell people who've come onto this forum and asked questions how they can save money, and random proselytization on street corners.

If you're doing the latter, post a video.  I want to watch.

RootofGood

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 03:37:32 PM »
With MMM evangelism, your converts end up wealthy and free.

With religious evangelism, your converts end up broke and enchained.  But at least their souls will be free (as to one religion anyway). 

Either one is definitely life-changing, so practice evangelism with care. 

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2015, 04:40:39 PM »
I think most are attracted to religion because of a sense of community, similar values, and living a "good life" rather than because they fear they will be cast into the eternal fires of hell with gnashing of teeth and the like.

Just like most of us here are drawn to mustachianism because of a sense of community, similar financial values, and living a good life (efficient, not wasteful, etc.) Rather than some form of financial fear.

Not sure where the religion bashing is coming from (I apologize if I am interpreting the tone wrong). While I myself am not religious, I have seen the joy and comfort it has brought to other peoples lives. I feel like I have that already and don't need religion to attain it, but I can still appreciate the value that others see in it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2015, 04:53:46 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.
There's this guy I know of, 30-something dude who rides his bike, saved half his income, and retired early. Says I could probably do the same too if I followed his principles. Otherwise I might have to work until I'm 65.

There's this other guy I know of, 30-something dude, says he's the son of God and if I don't do what he says and follow his principles I will be cast into a lake of Fire and damned and tormented by demons for eternity.

Is there a difference?

One of them can prove it?

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2015, 05:10:17 PM »
I think most are attracted to religion because of a sense of community, similar values, and living a "good life" rather than because they fear they will be cast into the eternal fires of hell with gnashing of teeth and the like.

Just like most of us here are drawn to mustachianism because of a sense of community, similar financial values, and living a good life (efficient, not wasteful, etc.) Rather than some form of financial fear.

Not sure where the religion bashing is coming from (I apologize if I am interpreting the tone wrong). While I myself am not religious, I have seen the joy and comfort it has brought to other peoples lives. I feel like I have that already and don't need religion to attain it, but I can still appreciate the value that others see in it.
Guess I should have put in a smiley face because I was just joking, not bashing religion.

:P cheers

PJ

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2015, 07:27:19 PM »
I think most are attracted to religion because of a sense of community, similar values, and living a "good life" rather than because they fear they will be cast into the eternal fires of hell with gnashing of teeth and the like.

Just like most of us here are drawn to mustachianism because of a sense of community, similar financial values, and living a good life (efficient, not wasteful, etc.) Rather than some form of financial fear.

Not sure where the religion bashing is coming from (I apologize if I am interpreting the tone wrong). While I myself am not religious, I have seen the joy and comfort it has brought to other peoples lives. I feel like I have that already and don't need religion to attain it, but I can still appreciate the value that others see in it.
Guess I should have put in a smiley face because I was just joking, not bashing religion.

:P cheers

As someone who is religious, I don't have an issue with the intent behind the OP's initial question - although, for the record, there are a whole lot more religious people who are sensitive and respectful in their evangelism than there are pushy obnoxious evangelists.  You just don't hear about them as much because they are sensitive and respectful.  I suspect the same can be said of atheists, and agnostics - a few vocal, most quiet, and likely to share their thoughts only in the context of a relationship of trust and mutual respect.

Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism?  I can see it.  As someone else said, both can be life changing.  Both are things people can be passionate about.  Both can be "good news" (the literal translation of the word "Gospel") and therefore things that we might desire to share with others we care about.  Both are things that must be lived, not just talked about.

That being said, there is a pretty clear anti-Christian flavour to this thread (not just your comments, spartana!)  It may be subtle, but it's there.  I have to admit that I'm now regretting having shared a link to the site with another Christian friend. 

While "most" forum participants might not be religious, some of us are.  One of the things I love about this forum is that (face punches notwithstanding) there is usually a high degree of respect for individual backgrounds, culture, personalities, choices, etc.  We all rub along together reasonably well, for the most part, and that's amazing considering how many strong personalities there are here.  This thread, on the other hand, leaves me feeling a little bit disrespected, and unwelcome.  Not how I usually feel around here. 

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2015, 07:39:06 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

You sound EXACTLY like an evangelist.  I understand your point, but a religious person believes in that book, just as deeply as you do in those facts.
They're not trying to force religion on anyone; they're just trying to give people a chance to see the truth of God.

This is why I say give people their space.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2015, 07:42:09 PM »
With MMM evangelism, your converts end up wealthy and free.

With religious evangelism, your converts end up broke and enchained.  But at least their souls will be free (as to one religion anyway). 

Either one is definitely life-changing, so practice evangelism with care.

Your bias shines through greatly here; the religious would disagree with your stance on them being enchained, and being broke is not directly related to being religious.  They'd agree on the free soul part, I suppose though.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2015, 07:46:40 PM »
Ummm...  No.  We joke about it occasionally, but it's no more a religious cult than a bird-watching club, an amateur astronomer's group, or a motorcycle club.  Fervor is not to be confused with enthusiasm.

Ummm.... yes.  There are definitely threads on here that are a little cult-ish.  I understand that the MMM people are very practical by nature, insist on making choices that are logical, etc...
But I would argue that there are some that would follow him off a cliff.  Look at the blog, ANY TIME HE MAKES A NEW POST.  People are immediately typing in comments (and it always seems to be that Frugalwoods person, who I kind of find infuriating, but that's another rant...)

IN FACT, when people start responses with sassy phrases like 'umm...no', it just pisses me off like nothing else.  The implication I get from that type of verbiage (perhaps wrongly so) is that you are asserting you are right "cuz I said so" <snaps fingers twice>.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2015, 07:52:23 PM »
Maybe Mustachianism just needs a secret handshake and a dark underbelly!

Can somebody recruit Katie Holmes?  Please?

To the OP: you sound like you're referring specifically to threads on this forum.  There's a considerable difference between trying to tell people who've come onto this forum and asked questions how they can save money, and random proselytization on street corners.

If you're doing the latter, post a video.  I want to watch.

Yes, there are a number of threads on this forum THAT MAKE ME WANT TO BANG MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL.  MMM is cool, I get it.  I had the 'seeing the light' experience.  I just feel that it is better not to evangelize it unless asked, or perhaps unless giving a terse friendly frugal feedback (hello alliteration!) to someone in need.  But beyond that, it annoys people, just like with religious evangelism.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2015, 07:55:01 PM »
I think most are attracted to religion because of a sense of community, similar values, and living a "good life" rather than because they fear they will be cast into the eternal fires of hell with gnashing of teeth and the like.

Just like most of us here are drawn to mustachianism because of a sense of community, similar financial values, and living a good life (efficient, not wasteful, etc.) Rather than some form of financial fear.

Not sure where the religion bashing is coming from (I apologize if I am interpreting the tone wrong). While I myself am not religious, I have seen the joy and comfort it has brought to other peoples lives. I feel like I have that already and don't need religion to attain it, but I can still appreciate the value that others see in it.

Oh, I'm not religion bashing.  I'm bashing evangelism.  Religion is generally good for people (actually, I'm not sure about that; it sure has caused a lot of suffering; but anyways, a lot of people get a lot of benefit from religion.  But I don't like it when religions have penalties for not believing... this risks to lower quality of life of others via fear, etc...)

bacchi

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2015, 08:01:35 PM »
Yes, there are a number of threads on this forum THAT MAKE ME WANT TO BANG MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL.  MMM is cool, I get it.  I had the 'seeing the light' experience.  I just feel that it is better not to evangelize it unless asked, or perhaps unless giving a terse friendly frugal feedback (hello alliteration!) to someone in need.  But beyond that, it annoys people, just like with religious evangelism.

Yep, agreed. I think most MMMers realize this after their initial proselytizing foray, though, and stop. A lot of threads are about that.

Re: his putting up a new post. To be fair, probably half of the responses are other PF bloggers, which is pretty amusing in and of itself.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2015, 08:02:27 PM »
I think most are attracted to religion because of a sense of community, similar values, and living a "good life" rather than because they fear they will be cast into the eternal fires of hell with gnashing of teeth and the like.

Just like most of us here are drawn to mustachianism because of a sense of community, similar financial values, and living a good life (efficient, not wasteful, etc.) Rather than some form of financial fear.

Not sure where the religion bashing is coming from (I apologize if I am interpreting the tone wrong). While I myself am not religious, I have seen the joy and comfort it has brought to other peoples lives. I feel like I have that already and don't need religion to attain it, but I can still appreciate the value that others see in it.
Guess I should have put in a smiley face because I was just joking, not bashing religion.

:P cheers

As someone who is religious, I don't have an issue with the intent behind the OP's initial question - although, for the record, there are a whole lot more religious people who are sensitive and respectful in their evangelism than there are pushy obnoxious evangelists.  You just don't hear about them as much because they are sensitive and respectful.  I suspect the same can be said of atheists, and agnostics - a few vocal, most quiet, and likely to share their thoughts only in the context of a relationship of trust and mutual respect.

Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism?  I can see it.  As someone else said, both can be life changing.  Both are things people can be passionate about.  Both can be "good news" (the literal translation of the word "Gospel") and therefore things that we might desire to share with others we care about.  Both are things that must be lived, not just talked about.

That being said, there is a pretty clear anti-Christian flavour to this thread (not just your comments, spartana!)  It may be subtle, but it's there.  I have to admit that I'm now regretting having shared a link to the site with another Christian friend. 

While "most" forum participants might not be religious, some of us are.  One of the things I love about this forum is that (face punches notwithstanding) there is usually a high degree of respect for individual backgrounds, culture, personalities, choices, etc.  We all rub along together reasonably well, for the most part, and that's amazing considering how many strong personalities there are here.  This thread, on the other hand, leaves me feeling a little bit disrespected, and unwelcome.  Not how I usually feel around here.

You bring up a good point, and thanks for sharing it.  The loud minority can ruin it for the rest of us; if this is accurate, then the purpose of this thread is to encourage the loud minority to shut up!

Sorry, about the anti-Christian tone.  I only use that example because of convenience, and partly because it's more acceptable to attack Christianity now a days (anti-Christian sentiment is all over the place).  But I apologize for any anti-Christian sentiment I have generated; that was unintended and I regret.

That being said, I actually like Christians a lot, especially Mormons.  As long as they aren't evangelizing on me, we're cool!  And I very much respect that the religion brings good things to their lives.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 08:17:28 PM by Case »

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2015, 08:04:23 PM »
Yes, there are a number of threads on this forum THAT MAKE ME WANT TO BANG MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL.  MMM is cool, I get it.  I had the 'seeing the light' experience.  I just feel that it is better not to evangelize it unless asked, or perhaps unless giving a terse friendly frugal feedback (hello alliteration!) to someone in need.  But beyond that, it annoys people, just like with religious evangelism.

Yep, agreed. I think most MMMers realize this after their initial proselytizing foray, though, and stop. A lot of threads are about that.

Re: his putting up a new post. To be fair, probably half of the responses are other PF bloggers, which is pretty amusing in and of itself.

that's a good point; maybe it is natural to evangelize a bit, realize what you're doing, then back off.

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2015, 08:41:37 PM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

You sound EXACTLY like an evangelist.  I understand your point, but a religious person believes in that book, just as deeply as you do in those facts.
They're not trying to force religion on anyone; they're just trying to give people a chance to see the truth of God.

This is why I say give people their space.

This is the fundamental difference I was referring to.  I don't care how much faith you (or anyone) have in bullshit, it's still bullshit, and you can't draw a parallel to someone living in the real world and dealing with math and facts. 

badger1988

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2015, 09:04:37 PM »
When I lived in Madison I attended a large church that was a part of the "Evangelical Free" denomination. It was a little funny sometimes because there were attenders who came to the church (and liked it) because they thought it was literally "free of evangelicals."

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2015, 09:05:27 PM »

I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

You sound EXACTLY like an evangelist.  I understand your point, but a religious person believes in that book, just as deeply as you do in those facts.
They're not trying to force religion on anyone; they're just trying to give people a chance to see the truth of God.

This is why I say give people their space.

This is the fundamental difference I was referring to.  I don't care how much faith you (or anyone) have in bullshit, it's still bullshit, and you can't draw a parallel to someone living in the real world and dealing with math and facts.

If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

(Apologize for the link, I don't know how to do it properly from my phone)

RootofGood

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2015, 09:32:18 PM »
If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

I shop at a church thrift shop every month or two.  That certainly makes me happy (saving all that money!).  And they give away free stuffed animals on your way out the door.  Definitely makes the kids happy, shows them that stuff doesn't have to cost anything, and as a result happy kids make for a happy family.  We're all completely happy thanks to visiting that church (that sells high quality second hand goods for really cheap). 

As for the linked study, meh.  It basically says religion makes people happy because they are hanging out with their friends with whom they share a social identity and engaging in meaningful activities together.  Sounds kinda like a bunch of Mustachians hanging out together (Raleigh/Durham Mustachian meetup this Saturday, just sayin').  Maybe a great big kumbaya circle jerk is all us social animals need to feel extremely satisfied with our lives. 

"Theoretically, Lim said, belonging to a secular friend group that engages in meaningful activities and shares a social identity might also boost life satisfaction." 

HP

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2015, 10:00:13 PM »
When I was in college, I wasn't interested in dating, so I used to scare guys off by pulling my Bible out and putting it on the table next to me, or telling them that I couldn't go out with them Friday night because that was Bible study night. It was very effective.

I'm not sure what the MMM equivalent of that is exactly, but imagining scenarios is amusing.

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2015, 10:01:00 PM »

If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

As for the linked study, meh.  It basically says religion makes people happy because they are hanging out with their friends with whom they share a social identity and engaging in meaningful activities together.

That was my point ;) If they forge those relationships through religion and that makes them happy, who are we to say it shouldn't.

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2015, 10:06:39 PM »

When I was in college, I wasn't interested in dating, so I used to scare guys off by pulling my Bible out and putting it on the table next to me, or telling them that I couldn't go out with them Friday night because that was Bible study night. It was very

That is hilarious, thanks for the laugh!

In college we had a class where we studied malls and how they are set up to make you pause in certain areas, had anchor stores at either end to encourage you to walk by more stores, etc. We were having a convo about the annoying kiosk people that aggressively try to sell you things and start off with "can I ask you a question?" To try and draw you in for a hard sell. A student said she always countered with "yes you may, and I have a question for you, have you met our lord and savior Jesus Christ?" Realizing it would be a waste of their time to talk religion rather than pressure someone into buying they would always walk away.

frugalnacho

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2015, 10:16:42 PM »

If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

As for the linked study, meh.  It basically says religion makes people happy because they are hanging out with their friends with whom they share a social identity and engaging in meaningful activities together.

That was my point ;) If they forge those relationships through religion and that makes them happy, who are we to say it shouldn't.

Nobody said that.  That's not even what's being discussed.  I said there is a fundamental difference between mustachianism and religious evangelism in that mustachianism presents it's arguments with logic and math to back it up, and doesn't rely on faith of any kind. 

trailrated

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2015, 10:18:31 PM »


If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

As for the linked study, meh.  It basically says religion makes people happy because they are hanging out with their friends with whom they share a social identity and engaging in meaningful activities together.

That was my point ;) If they forge those relationships through religion and that makes them happy, who are we to say it shouldn't.

Nobody said that.  That's not even what's being discussed.  I said there is a fundamental difference between mustachianism and religious evangelism in that mustachianism presents it's arguments with logic and math to back it up, and doesn't rely on faith of any kind.

In that context, I stand corrected.

Lis

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2015, 08:49:25 AM »
Here's how I'm viewing this conversation going (please take this in jest):

Bob and Joe see two women who are both wearing orange shirts.

Bob: Oh, those women are dressed alike!
Joe: No they're not, one's wearing jeans and the other's wearing a skirt.
Bob: Their shirts are pretty similar.
Joe: But they're not dressed alike because their bottoms are different.

There are similarities. Not everything is the same. Extreme views of any belief will earn you eye rolls from pretty much everyone else.

Bob W

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2015, 08:56:35 AM »
Never give advice as those who need it won't heed it said the advisor. 

kendallf

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2015, 12:59:07 PM »
...So to me, that makes discussions about MMM and his philosophy much more palatable for most people then discussions about religious beliefs - especially when there is the essence of eternal doom if you don't believe and follow those teachings - unlike with MMM.

Some days I feel like the cubicle might be a good analogue to eternal doom. 

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

GuitarStv

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2015, 01:22:15 PM »
...So to me, that makes discussions about MMM and his philosophy much more palatable for most people then discussions about religious beliefs - especially when there is the essence of eternal doom if you don't believe and follow those teachings - unlike with MMM.

Some days I feel like the cubicle might be a good analogue to eternal doom. 

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

Our father, who art in Colorado
Hallowed by thine name
When ER come, thy will be done
by indexed investing at 4%.

Give us this day our Vanguard funds
and face-punch us for our consumerist tendencies
as we face-punch those consumers around us.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

Giro

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2015, 01:31:13 PM »
...So to me, that makes discussions about MMM and his philosophy much more palatable for most people then discussions about religious beliefs - especially when there is the essence of eternal doom if you don't believe and follow those teachings - unlike with MMM.

Some days I feel like the cubicle might be a good analogue to eternal doom. 

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

Our father, who art in Colorado
Hallowed by thine name
When ER come, thy will be done
by indexed investing at 4%.

Give us this day our Vanguard funds
and face-punch us for our consumerist tendencies
as we face-punch those consumers around us.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

+1

Yes, I see some of the extreme MMM posts and want to just casually walk away....walk away    If you don't sell your fancy car, cut your grocery budget in half and never ever dine out...YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND HERE IS YOUR FACEPUNCH.   Very similar to seeing the pastor and making eye contract ...WHY HAVEN'T YOU BEEN IN CHURCH YOUNG LADY!






Kaspian

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2015, 01:48:57 PM »
...So to me, that makes discussions about MMM and his philosophy much more palatable for most people then discussions about religious beliefs - especially when there is the essence of eternal doom if you don't believe and follow those teachings - unlike with MMM.

Some days I feel like the cubicle might be a good analogue to eternal doom. 

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

Our father, who art in Colorado
Hallowed by thine name
When ER come, thy will be done
by indexed investing at 4%.

Give us this day our Vanguard funds
and face-punch us for our consumerist tendencies
as we face-punch those consumers around us.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom of the (downsized) house, and the power saving appliance, and the bicycle riding glory, for ever. Amen.

+1

Yes, I see some of the extreme MMM posts and want to just casually walk away....walk away    If you don't sell your fancy car, cut your grocery budget in half and never ever dine out...YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND HERE IS YOUR FACEPUNCH.   Very similar to seeing the pastor and making eye contract ...WHY HAVEN'T YOU BEEN IN CHURCH YOUNG LADY!

Ummm..  Why are you guys here again?  Do you go to Batman boards and talk about how he's not all hero, his fans must be a religion, and that Spiderman is pretty damn cool?  Is it want for something better to do?  I honestly don't ever see much in the way of extremists here.  Whiners, contrarians, trolls, and Devil's advocates?  Hell, yes.  ...But that's also called 'The Internet'.

CestMoi

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2015, 03:01:39 PM »
Speaking for myself (as I always do), I don't preach anything to anyone. I never tell people who are not on MMM about my ways of handling money, except for my fiance and sister, who share my approach.

I've noticed a competitive streak running through this site, yes, and sadly that's going to be found pretty much anywhere human beings, religious or not, congregate.

takeahike

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2015, 04:30:31 PM »
Yeah there are similarities because both require enthusiasm and conviction in the message. Both probably require lifestyle changes, one to reach financial independence and the other to reach a spiritual goal. One can be measured a lot easier. I sure don't mind mentioning that I follow this blog but I don't go out of my way to tell people about it. I don't think most religious people do that either. It's probably a personality thing more than a requirement/symptom of either.  I think there are personality types that can turn anything into an evangelical quest. 


 

forummm

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2015, 05:07:40 PM »
I can't really see too many similarities. Sure, people can be excited about each, and can tell their friends they should also be excited about each.

One difference: MMMers have actual facts and logic and proven simple math to show their ideas are real and useful. The religious just have faith.

Others: No MMMers are trying to get 10% of my income for no useful purpose. And MMM doesn't pretend he invented the idea of frugality. And no MMMers are starting wars due to profligate overspending. And no MMMers are trying to change public policy to make it illegal to overspend. Etc, etc.

GuitarStv

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2015, 05:21:38 PM »
I really like the idea of a mustachian holy war actually.  I'm picturing an army of cyclists armed with spreadsheets and compound interest equations sternly telling the other side how much the ten year cost of all the ordnance being unleashed is going to be.

Case

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2015, 11:27:31 AM »
I think there is a definite distinction you are missing between the two.  Whenever I promote mustachianism or anything related to it to someone, it's not because I read it in a magic book, or was told by an authoritative figure (MMM) that that's the way it is.  It's because all of the advice he gives is backed up by evidence and math.   I'm not trying to convince anyone to have faith in anything.  Quite the opposite in fact.

You sound EXACTLY like an evangelist.  I understand your point, but a religious person believes in that book, just as deeply as you do in those facts.
They're not trying to force religion on anyone; they're just trying to give people a chance to see the truth of God.

This is why I say give people their space.

This is the fundamental difference I was referring to.  I don't care how much faith you (or anyone) have in bullshit, it's still bullshit, and you can't draw a parallel to someone living in the real world and dealing with math and facts.

I think you may be missing the point I'm trying to make; I don't disagree on the logic vs faith part.  My point is that in either case, evangelism becomes very annoying when taken beyond simply mentioning it.  Some of the posts on this forum hint at people forcing their beliefs on people, and even if only to a small degree, I don't think this should be done.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2015, 12:23:56 PM »
Evangelism can be annoying, for sure. But I don't see a whole lot of it on this forum. When people talk about 'converting" someone, they are usually talking about a spouse or partner, someone whose life they are involved with and whom they may share finances with.  Or maybe it's their parents (whom they might need to support in the future). And the purpose is to improve the way they manage money (at least initially), but the partner doesn't have to become a true believer.

I also see people mentioning that they discuss it with folks who have asked for help or shown some interest. That's quite different from going out to preach to the masses and "save" them from their errors.

I've never in my life tried to convert anyone to frugality or MMM or whatever. When my sister-in-law revealed that she was in financial trouble and needed help, we did sit down and explain a few things. She isn't a mustachian now, but she's doing better. (And she's paying us back on schedule.)

tct

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2015, 02:42:11 PM »

If you are going with facts, there are plenty of studies that link happiness and religion. Let's for your argument say it is bullshit. Believing in said bullshit or at least the services and relationships forged from it make that person more satisfied with life. Therefore making it not bullshit if it adds value to their life. 

http://m.livescience.com/9090-religion-people-happier-hint-god.html

As for the linked study, meh.  It basically says religion makes people happy because they are hanging out with their friends with whom they share a social identity and engaging in meaningful activities together.

That was my point ;) If they forge those relationships through religion and that makes them happy, who are we to say it shouldn't.

Nobody said that.  That's not even what's being discussed.  I said there is a fundamental difference between mustachianism and religious evangelism in that mustachianism presents it's arguments with logic and math to back it up, and doesn't rely on faith of any kind.

I disagree. Mustachianism does rely on faith, at least for me. I think it requires faith to realize spending/consuming less does lead to a happier life.

firewalker

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2015, 04:45:40 PM »
tct, you have made a fascinating statement of thought: Math is not in the category of faith, but attaining happiness or satisfaction is a matter of faith. Mustachian Number 1 did "this and that and retired with FI at x age and is happy and satisfied" but I have never done that. But THAT persons experience WILL happen to ME as well." That is called faith.

Carrie

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Re: Similarities between mustachianism and religious evangelism
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2015, 05:25:44 PM »
Mustachianism absolutely requires faith.  I have faith that our investments will double and that we can retire in 7 years. Husband will believe it when it happens.  The idea is too abstract right now for him, even though I can see it clearly.

Same as religion.  Some people see it clearly and can make sense of it, others are not so sure and need more proof than a beautiful sunset or happy coincidences.