Author Topic: should this used car deal worry me?  (Read 8793 times)

robbyho

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should this used car deal worry me?
« on: April 07, 2015, 08:22:43 AM »
So, Finally sold my very unmustachian Dodge Magnum Hemi and now the car search has a deadline. I've test driven several and narrowed it down. I thought I had decided on a 2011 Mazda 3 HB with 40k miles with an asking price of $12,998. However I found a Kia dealership with what appears to be a very underpriced 2012 Kia Soul.

2012 Kia Soul
Base model
Manual Tranny
79,000 miles
asking - $7998

The car is very basic, which is fine because I can add the things I'd want - stereo, tablet for navigation, etc.

What concerns me is that it is about $2000 under the KBB value, and they have the same car with 30,000 less miles for $1000 over the KBB value.

This is a "certified pre-owned" from a KIA dealership. Why would they price it so low? Do they know something I don't or is it just something they are trying to get rid of? Would you be concerned about buying it?

Help me out please!



neo von retorch

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 08:27:28 AM »
Unless there's a reliability issue (check Consumer Reports), and assuming you are getting the CPO warranty (which is usually pretty comprehensive and long!), I wouldn't be all that worried. I don't know if $8k is a good price for a Kia with 80,000 miles on it, though, regardless of age. For $8k, there are lots of cars with 50-80k on it, including Honda, Toyota/Scion that have a much longer track record for reliability.

Smokeydave

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 08:33:38 AM »
The manual transmission is a hard sell for most people.  I drive a stick and bought it under kbb value.  Get a carfax and have an independent shop look it over.  Good luck and nice job decreasing your vehicle expense.

pagoconcheques

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 08:39:42 AM »
Get a carfax and have an independent shop look it over. 

+1.  It might be undervalued just because it has a manual transmission.  The dealer can give you a carfax, just be sure the VIN on the carfax is the same as the one on the car.  For $100 you should be able to get a very good independent shop to give you a thorough and cynical pre-purchase inspection. 

It kind of sounds like a car they just want to get rid of, though that means they won't put money into it either.  It might need new tires or have missed a key maintenance interval (find out what they are from the owner's manual and press for documentation). 

infogoon

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 08:41:40 AM »
It's got a lot of miles for a three year old car, which will turn off a lot of potential buyers. The manual transmission will turn off even more. It sounds like it's just a car that the dealership wants to get rid of, and they're willing to give up a little bit of the asking price to that end.

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 08:50:38 AM »
thanks, I'm reassured.

Why would someone drive 26,000 miles per year?


infogoon

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 08:56:01 AM »
thanks, I'm reassured.

Why would someone drive 26,000 miles per year?

It might have been owned by a business as a delivery or collection vehicle. My father's part-time gig is delivering auto parts from a warehouse to mechanic shops -- he puts a lot of miles on the truck.

MayDay

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 08:57:22 AM »
Probably job related.  My mom was a home care nurse in a rural area for awhile.... She put in miles like crazy.  My dad was a rural extension specialist, same thing, but the mileage reimbursement more than paid for their cars since they kept them 10+ years. 

Or could just be someone with a rally long commute. 

27y/oTennesseeRetiree

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 09:01:38 AM »
Where do you live? In my market area, Nashville, manual transmissions always seem to be below blue book. It is probably just that. None of my friends can drive a manual and heaven help them if they get in a three speed. Even the valets here can't park one of those.

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 09:04:21 AM »
Where do you live? In my market area, Nashville, manual transmissions always seem to be below blue book. It is probably just that. None of my friends can drive a manual and heaven help them if they get in a three speed. Even the valets here can't park one of those.

I'm in CT. The same dealership has the same car with the same tranny with 48,000 miles for $12,000. Just doesn't make sense to me that 30,000 miles makes a $4000 difference.

boarder42

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 09:11:49 AM »
there are many people out there that still subscribe to the 100k miles is too many thing.  and this is only 20k away ...

Exflyboy

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 10:25:26 AM »
That deal would not worry me.. I mean you have $4k spare to put into the car if you had to.. heck you can rebuild the motor for say $1000 in parts (assuming they are available after market by now).

I would ask for the maintenance records (if they are not available that may explain some of the price reductions). I believe that Kias now have timing chains (i.e not belts) so doubt there was any serious issues.

As long as the engine had decent compression and wasn't burning any oil I'd say you were good to go.

Frank

JetsettingWelfareMom

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2015, 11:30:11 AM »
What color is the cheaper Kia? My ex sells used cars and used to tell me that green colored cars are the hardest to sell...he'd always price them at discount...it is higher mileage too...

Jack

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2015, 11:31:46 AM »
It's got a lot of miles for a three year old car, which will turn off a lot of potential buyers. The manual transmission will turn off even more. It sounds like it's just a car that the dealership wants to get rid of, and they're willing to give up a little bit of the asking price to that end.

And because of all that, this is the OP's chance to drive a really hard bargain. Especially if the car's been sitting on the lot for a while, he might be able to snag it for something closer to $7k.

Cwadda

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2015, 11:44:05 AM »
Pay a trusted mechanic for his time to go look at the car. Find out the history of the car.

Also if they're asking $8000 make sure you also know the "out the door" price - after taxes, plates, insurance, etc.

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2015, 11:52:45 AM »
 
What color is the cheaper Kia? My ex sells used cars and used to tell me that green colored cars are the hardest to sell...he'd always price them at discount...it is higher mileage too...

black


And because of all that, this is the OP's chance to drive a really hard bargain. Especially if the car's been sitting on the lot for a while, he might be able to snag it for something closer to $7k.

that's what I'm hoping for. The outside temp gauge in the pic shows 55 degrees so it had to be taken in sept/oct so I'd say they've had it for at least 6 months.


mulescent

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2015, 12:02:26 PM »
A likely explanation is that the car has a salvage or rebuilt title.  Some Googling revealed that Kia CPO cars are inspected and that a CarFax-like document is provided (so you can see if the title is branded).  However, they carefully avoid saying that CPO cars must have clean titles. 

Get a CarFax report.  If the title is branded, then determining the fair value is much more complex than just looking in KBB.

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2015, 12:35:23 PM »
A likely explanation is that the car has a salvage or rebuilt title.  Some Googling revealed that Kia CPO cars are inspected and that a CarFax-like document is provided (so you can see if the title is branded).  However, they carefully avoid saying that CPO cars must have clean titles. 

Get a CarFax report.  If the title is branded, then determining the fair value is much more complex than just looking in KBB.

got the carfax and not only does it have no reported accidents or salvages, but it has impeccable maintenance records for 2 years 8 months at the same dealer than is selling it. Looks like a go.

James!

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2015, 02:56:11 PM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Jack

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 09:15:36 AM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Bull. Hyundais are just as good as Hondas or Toyotas.

James!

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 10:05:00 AM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Bull. Hyundais are just as good as Hondas or Toyotas.

... said no one, ever. Except a Hyundai salesman. :-)

Also, we're talking about a Kia, not a Hyundai?

Jack

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 11:19:43 AM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Bull. Hyundais are just as good as Hondas or Toyotas.

... said no one, ever. Except a Hyundai salesman. :-)

Also, we're talking about a Kia, not a Hyundai?

Kia, Hyundai -- same difference! (They're owned by the same company, like Chevrolet and Buick. A Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are essentially the same car, for example.)

I used to have a 2003 Hyundai Accent, and it was the best car I've ever owned (so far, at least). I'd still have it now if a tree hadn't fallen on it.

James!

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2015, 12:01:36 PM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Bull. Hyundais are just as good as Hondas or Toyotas.

... said no one, ever. Except a Hyundai salesman. :-)

Also, we're talking about a Kia, not a Hyundai?

Kia, Hyundai -- same difference! (They're owned by the same company, like Chevrolet and Buick. A Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are essentially the same car, for example.)

I used to have a 2003 Hyundai Accent, and it was the best car I've ever owned (so far, at least). I'd still have it now if a tree hadn't fallen on it.

For reference on this conversation (I should've included in my original post)...

In 2011 I bought a Honda Fit (new) and my co-worker/friend bought a Kia Soul(new).

From about 3 months in until the day she sold it, she regretted it and said over and over she wished she had bought a fit instead. She didn't initially because it was "a lot cheaper"

Used, the prices are going to be even closer. I'm not bashing Kia/Hyundai or saying they are awful, but the build quality, re-sale value, and reliability are not at the level of a Honda. If you disagree, I'd refer to you pretty much everyone ever who has reviewed the fit. :-D

Just for fun I just looked at the Wikipedia for Car and Driver 10 Best List. I know it's not the be-all end-all, but it's a good general reference. The Fit was on for 7 years straight, with Honda dominating over all with 80 cars on the list in ~20 years. Kia/Hyundai have... 0.

Back to you, Jack. :-)

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2015, 12:33:46 PM »
Spend a little more $$ to get a lot more car. You're not far off from getting a similar year Honda or Toyota. In 5 years you'll be very glad you did!

Bull. Hyundais are just as good as Hondas or Toyotas.

... said no one, ever. Except a Hyundai salesman. :-)

Also, we're talking about a Kia, not a Hyundai?

Kia, Hyundai -- same difference! (They're owned by the same company, like Chevrolet and Buick. A Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are essentially the same car, for example.)

I used to have a 2003 Hyundai Accent, and it was the best car I've ever owned (so far, at least). I'd still have it now if a tree hadn't fallen on it.

For reference on this conversation (I should've included in my original post)...

In 2011 I bought a Honda Fit (new) and my co-worker/friend bought a Kia Soul(new).

From about 3 months in until the day she sold it, she regretted it and said over and over she wished she had bought a fit instead. She didn't initially because it was "a lot cheaper"

Used, the prices are going to be even closer. I'm not bashing Kia/Hyundai or saying they are awful, but the build quality, re-sale value, and reliability are not at the level of a Honda. If you disagree, I'd refer to you pretty much everyone ever who has reviewed the fit. :-D

Just for fun I just looked at the Wikipedia for Car and Driver 10 Best List. I know it's not the be-all end-all, but it's a good general reference. The Fit was on for 7 years straight, with Honda dominating over all with 80 cars on the list in ~20 years. Kia/Hyundai have... 0.

Back to you, Jack. :-)

The Hyundau Sonata was on the list in 2011.

I ruled out the Honda's b/c the used premium seems to be based more on reputation than current reliability. In my research the Kia Soul is comparable in terms of reliability and doesn't have the price tag of the Fit.  Kia/Hyundai seems to have caught up with Honda/Toyota without the premium in the used market.

Jack

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2015, 12:39:46 PM »
For reference on this conversation (I should've included in my original post)...

In 2011 I bought a Honda Fit (new) and my co-worker/friend bought a Kia Soul(new).

From about 3 months in until the day she sold it, she regretted it and said over and over she wished she had bought a fit instead. She didn't initially because it was "a lot cheaper"

Used, the prices are going to be even closer. I'm not bashing Kia/Hyundai or saying they are awful, but the build quality, re-sale value, and reliability are not at the level of a Honda. If you disagree, I'd refer to you pretty much everyone ever who has reviewed the fit. :-D

Just for fun I just looked at the Wikipedia for Car and Driver 10 Best List. I know it's not the be-all end-all, but it's a good general reference. The Fit was on for 7 years straight, with Honda dominating over all with 80 cars on the list in ~20 years. Kia/Hyundai have... 0.

Back to you, Jack. :-)

You say you might as well get a used Honda because a used Kia isn't much cheaper, then you say Kias are bad because they have poor resale value. Those statements are mutually-exclusive!

You know what other cars are on those Car & Driver 10Best lists? Audis, BMWs, Porsches, and VWs. Reliability and resale value are clearly not the most important criteria. Also note that Hyundai did make the list in 2011, with the Sonata.

FYI, the reason Hondas keep making that list is because they have really good manual transmissions. For Mustachians (other than the ones in this thread, at least), a "best cars" list from Consumer Reports would be more useful. (Consumer Reports, by the way, currently ranks the Subaru Impreza as the best compact car... but before that, it was the Hyundai Elantra.)

Besides, the important thing is not Kias in general, but rather this Kia. And this Kia is $8000 (or maybe less). To get a 2012 Honda Fit with less than 100K miles, you're paying $10K minimum (according to the nationwide Autotrader.com search I just did) unless you want one with a salvage title.

James!

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2015, 12:47:10 PM »

You say you might as well get a used Honda because a used Kia isn't much cheaper, then you say Kias are bad because they have poor resale value. Those statements are mutually-exclusive!


This would be true is their initial prices were the same, but they aren't.

I think for the rest we'll have to agree to disagree. I know many people very happy with very old Hondas and Toyotas at 200-300k miles. I can't say the same for Kia/Hyundai, but that's my experience.

Jack

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 12:57:19 PM »

You say you might as well get a used Honda because a used Kia isn't much cheaper, then you say Kias are bad because they have poor resale value. Those statements are mutually-exclusive!


This would be true is their initial prices were the same, but they aren't.

I'm not talking about your claim regarding new car prices, I'm talking about your claim regarding used car prices:

Used, the prices are going to be even closer.

I know many people very happy with very old Hondas and Toyotas at 200-300k miles. I can't say the same for Kia/Hyundai, but that's my experience.

Well, that I'll agree with. But that's because most cars with that many miles on them are from the '90s, and back then Hyundais and Kias really did suck. They became good starting with the early-2000s models.

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2015, 10:33:37 AM »
So I bought the KIA. No further discount, so with all the added expenses (title fees, registration, taxes, etc.) it ended up at about $9400. They did put on two new tires for me as they needed to be replaced. I'm pretty confident in my negotiating ability (I do it every day at my job), and the car was priced low so I'm OK with the price.

Overall the car seems fine. Rus great, getting 30 MPG in mixed driving during the first few days. I'm somewhat regretting the manual transmission but once I mount my tablet in the dash it should make it more user friendly. Best part is my girlfriend went halvsies on it with me so she is putting off getting her own car for a while.

justajane

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2015, 05:18:28 PM »
We have a Kia Rondo and have been pretty happy. The lower resale value works in your favor if you are the buyer, and we never intend to sell. As far as the reliability and quality questions, my husband researched it and concluded that Honda and Toyota are mostly resting on their reputations at this point and that in actuality Hyundai/Kia are the same quality as the formers. But we found Hyundais just as expensive as Toyotas and Hondas, which is why we went for the Kia.

Plus Souls are so cute!

justajane

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2015, 05:22:56 PM »
I know many people very happy with very old Hondas and Toyotas at 200-300k miles. I can't say the same for Kia/Hyundai, but that's my experience.

Well, that I'll agree with. But that's because most cars with that many miles on them are from the '90s, and back then Hyundais and Kias really did suck. They became good starting with the early-2000s models.

This. Time will tell on the Kias, and I think the newer ones will stand the test of time. Kia is the new Toyota IMO. I'm happy many people haven't figured this out yet, since that means they haven't raised their prices yet to match the quality. 

robbyho

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 01:09:09 PM »
I know many people very happy with very old Hondas and Toyotas at 200-300k miles. I can't say the same for Kia/Hyundai, but that's my experience.

Well, that I'll agree with. But that's because most cars with that many miles on them are from the '90s, and back then Hyundais and Kias really did suck. They became good starting with the early-2000s models.

This. Time will tell on the Kias, and I think the newer ones will stand the test of time. Kia is the new Toyota IMO. I'm happy many people haven't figured this out yet, since that means they haven't raised their prices yet to match the quality.

exactly how I feel. Kia is the new toyota without the used priced inflation.

RWD

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 01:59:14 PM »
Reliability should be fine:
http://www.truedelta.com/Kia-Soul/reliability-855

As long as the title is clean and it passes an independent inspection I wouldn't be worried. You can get a NMVTIS report for $2-5, which is much cheaper than CarFax.
http://www.vehiclehistory.gov/

MattC

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Re: should this used car deal worry me?
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2015, 03:13:13 PM »
Truedelta provides some objective results re: reliability, as does Consumer Reports.  In general, Hondas and Toyotas still do have better reliability than almost anything else.  For example, for '10-'12 models a Soul averages just under 30 unexpected repairs needed per 100 vehicles per year; a Fit averages just under 10 repairs (the trudelta methodology). 

For the op's case of getting an $8k car, the Soul in question isn't a bad $8k car.  In general, though, if you calculate the true cost of owning your car (depreciation+gas+repair/maintenance+insurance+opportunity/financing cost+taxes/fees) the numbers usually work out cheapest for getting a $2k-$7k very reliable 5-15 year old small car (Corolla, Civic, Fit, Yaris, Echo, Xa, Xb, Prius, etc).  Towards the $7k end if you're repair-paranoid and feel the need to take your cars to the dealer for everything (or just for a nicer car); towards the $2k end if you work on your own cars and can be patient in finding a reliable one to buy.