Author Topic: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?  (Read 15553 times)

StartingEarly

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I have noticed a trend were people will criticize or belittle someone else's "whatever they want" items because they're not what they would choose.  One of the key pieces I like about mustachianism is that you can have whatever you want, you just can't have it all.  The point was to do things in a more efficient manner financially, but if something is truly important to you that you should do it.  I find that people forget this very quickly and criticize others for there must have items being different from their own chosen ones.

Rezdent

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I believe this is part of human nature.   The focus of the forum and relative anonymity probably makes it a bit more noticeable.
There are several interesting theories out there - the "fundamental attribute error", "actor observer bias".

This page covers both from an  ethics perspective, if anyone is interested:
http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/video/fundamental-attribution-error

So, when we are ascribing reasons for others behavior we assume them to have flaws of character whereas we will give external reasons for own own behavior (AKA excuses) - even when we do the exact thing they did.


swiper

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This page covers both from an  ethics perspective, if anyone is interested:
http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/video/fundamental-attribution-error


That's a very interesting series. Thanks for sharing it.

StartingEarly

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Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.  I just tend to see a lot of hate towards powersports from people on here that didn't grow up around them.  They don't tend to understand because it wasn't a huge part of their lives.  I tend to do it in a fairly financially conservative manner.  My bike was under 3k, and the jet ski I am considering for next year is under 2k.  I don't see how it's a big deal that I spend a good portion of my discretionary fund that I allow myself access to on something I truly enjoy.  I tend to save about 70 percent a year or so on my net, so I don't see fuel bills sinking me anytime soon.

Cassie

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WE have friends with a speed boat and going out on it to play is so much fun.  We always split the cost of gas with them of course.  I think it comes down to people see their own entertainment expenses as fine but judge others because they choose to do different things with their $.  It is just silly.

StartingEarly

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I can see some on here might judge from an environmental standpoint, but the way I tend to look at it is since I'm buying used equipment someone would end up using it anyways.  I am not buying a new piece which increases demand and makes manufacturers sell more equipment.  Someone would be polluting just as much as me, and given our main body of water is an ecological disaster, I would say it's far more likely that they would be destroying a more intact body of water than I.

briandougherty

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I think the nature of a forum where people are asking advice and giving their opinions brings out conflicting views.  I will say "that's stupid"/"that's a bad decision" here in a way I won't in real life because this is a place where I'm often being asked my opinion. Real life I'm normally not being asked in the same context.  If you talk about buying jet skis here then I'll say that's a bad idea for FI.  If a coworker talks about them then I'll just nod and indulge his story since he isn't asking about the financial implications.

SwordGuy

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Spending $3k on a hobby when you're saving 30 to 70% of your income is pretty reasonable.

Spending $3k on a hobby when you're hemorrhaging money every month and 10s or 100s of thousands in debt is something else.


StartingEarly

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While I would get retired slightly faster without buying it, I don't see how it's a huge expense.  I save over 30k a year, so a 2k jet ski is less than 10 percent of my entire savings for one year and it's not a yearly purchase.  I wouldn't agree with the sentiment that it delays FI unless we're going to the extreme where I could say a beer I purchased at a baseball game delayed FI.

briandougherty

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While I would get retired slightly faster without buying it, I don't see how it's a huge expense.  I save over 30k a year, so a 2k jet ski is less than 10 percent of my entire savings for one year and it's not a yearly purchase.  I wouldn't agree with the sentiment that it delays FI unless we're going to the extreme where I could say a beer I purchased at a baseball game delayed FI.

Well, it's all relative.  I save about $4k a month so buying them would be delaying FI for half a month for me.  For you, even less.

I mean, people disagree.  I think people probably think powersports cost more than 2-3k.  I think many of us probably find them generally wasteful because you're buying something that need more gas, maintenance in the future. There's definitely judgment but I'm not sure how harsh it is, generally.

lakemom

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2014, 05:39:30 AM »
Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.  I just tend to see a lot of hate towards powersports from people on here that didn't grow up around them.  They don't tend to understand because it wasn't a huge part of their lives.  I tend to do it in a fairly financially conservative manner.  My bike was under 3k, and the jet ski I am considering for next year is under 2k.  I don't see how it's a big deal that I spend a good portion of my discretionary fund that I allow myself access to on something I truly enjoy.  I tend to save about 70 percent a year or so on my net, so I don't see fuel bills sinking me anytime soon.

Ha!  Just enjoy your powersports and let the naysayer go hang.  You are making a lifestyle choice that only you can make...others do the same.  We live on a lake and own multiple boats....if we didn't live on the lake we wouldn't own any but I'm sure we'd use the money in other ways.  I often see people in a similar financial position as you commenting on the thousands a year they set aside for travel...how is that any different than enjoying your powersports?  Just yesterday while out on the pontoon dh was commenting on missing all the older kids (2 youngest were with us).  I said 'well they are all out of town camping.'  His comment was 'why go anywhere else when we have "this"'.  Me, yeah...that's why we don't fight the crowds on the major summer holidays to go anywhere else...we're where we want to be.  LOL....its what works for us.

daverobev

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 07:59:24 AM »
Probably because after a while there is the feeling of re-answering the 'same stupid questions' for the people who have been here a while.

For example: there are about a million what car should I get threads.

People are slightly blunt, which leads to a defensive response that is probably mildly 'unmustachian', which leads to an even blunter reply, leading to "you're all mean!"

Newbies don't search, don't look at the stickies, etc.

Intended vitriol - I have a baby and a second on the way, should I buy a minivan?? /rolleyes

boarder42

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 08:13:21 AM »
Yeah everyone has their own version of what they want. My wife and I are shooting for what most would consider very unmustacian retirement value at 50-60k.  I am an avid wakeboarder and own a boat.  We save close to 55% of our income and it increases each year. 

theadvicist

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2014, 08:15:40 AM »
the way I tend to look at it is since I'm buying used equipment someone would end up using it anyways.  I am not buying a new piece which increases demand and makes manufacturers sell more equipment. 

I personally don't think this justification stacks up (I also don't think you need a justification! It's your money, do as you please. And as for environmental complainy-pants, until they are living a carbon neutral life, I think they should practice more and preach less, personally).

But saying that buying second-hand doesn't stimulate demand just doesn't seem like fact to me. If I am willing to buy something second-hand, that gives it inherent value. The person I buy it from can 1) justify the purchase by saying, it will still be worth x in y years (thus leading to purchasing in the first place) and 2) upgrade to the newer version of that thing, when I buy the old thing (leading to the purchase of another).

If nothing had second-hand value, all goods would be worth less, therefore demand would fall. Just my two-cents. What do other people think? Does my reasoning make sense?

The Money Monk

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2014, 10:10:04 AM »
Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.  I just tend to see a lot of hate towards powersports from people on here that didn't grow up around them.  They don't tend to understand because it wasn't a huge part of their lives.  I tend to do it in a fairly financially conservative manner.  My bike was under 3k, and the jet ski I am considering for next year is under 2k.  I don't see how it's a big deal that I spend a good portion of my discretionary fund that I allow myself access to on something I truly enjoy.  I tend to save about 70 percent a year or so on my net, so I don't see fuel bills sinking me anytime soon.

Yeah I have posted on this issue before. I even wrote a blog post about it last year http://themoney-monk.blogspot.com/2013/12/it-doesnt-matter-what-you-spend-your.html

Savings rate is what matters. what exactly you spend the rest on is mostly irrelevant as long as it is sustainable and not irresponsible in some way (like you are mooching off relatives and spending yoru money on strip clubs instead of paying rent).

People on these forums wouldn't bat an eye if you spend $5000 a year on pets, travel etc (two sacred cows around here) but will excoriate you if you don't have pets or care about travel and would rather spend that $5000 on a car, or going to live sporting events, or any other expensive hobby. They take the arbitrary opinion that the pursuits that THEY like are worthwhile experiences, but the stuff other people enjoy is a waste of money and "unmustachian".

I've stopped arguing with people about it because it's not a rational position they are taking so it's not worth your breadth.

Just make your plan for FIRE, and spend your discretionary money on whatever makes you happy. If you are ok being miserable and not doing things you enjoy, then there is no point in trying to be FI in the first place, you can just work forever.

Scandium

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2014, 10:32:26 AM »
If anything I'd argue kids is the sacred cow here. In terms of a horrific expense, stress, with little return. What little mention I've seen of pets and travel are pretty scrutinized (but I haven't really looked though).

Anyway. I think much of the point here is to point out possible ways to save, make you think about your choices, consider alternatives, and then it's up to the individual to decide whether to do so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't come here for some recipe for what to do, point by point.

I don't know the specifics, but regarding the powersports example I could imagine people asking whether the joy you derive is worth the high cost, or if there are cheaper alternatives that give the same. Of course it's your money and you can do whatever the hell you want, you don't need approval from random people. It's just suggestions, and might make you think. It certainly has for me on several occasions. "I thought this would make me happier, but would it? I think I'll do X instead"
Personally I would love to have a jet-ski, I'm sure it's awesome! But it's expensive, and a hike in the woods, or trail biking or whatever is cheaper and gives me exercise so I'll do that instead. Just an example. But if you want a jet-ski nobody here is going to stop you, but I retain the right to not approve. In the same way you might not approve of my choices, let me know, and make me think about them.

If you want approval there are plenty of jet-ski, or computer hardware or whatever forums where you can get approval and admiration for every purchase you make:)

Nords

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2014, 11:37:03 AM »
I have noticed a trend were people will criticize or belittle someone else's "whatever they want" items because they're not what they would choose.  One of the key pieces I like about mustachianism is that you can have whatever you want, you just can't have it all.  The point was to do things in a more efficient manner financially, but if something is truly important to you that you should do it.  I find that people forget this very quickly and criticize others for there must have items being different from their own chosen ones.
I have a theory on the harsh judgments.

There are plenty of other places on the Internet to get "harsh":  Yahoo! forums, Reddit, Facebook groups, Twitter.  Unfortunately there's not much help or advice to go with the harsh, and most of those sites are not adequately moderated.

The smart, articulate posters move away from those lowest-common-denominator sites to forums that offer a higher-level, more detailed discussion of the issues.  Regrettably (from my perspective) some of these forum owners are motivated by profit.  They tend to cater to the newbies (who'll click on ads), and they want everyone to feel welcome without criticism.  Veteran posters tend to be categorized as grumpy curmudgeons who are either tired of answering the same question for the millionth time (because newbies don't do FAQs) or who are moderated into silence. 

Other forums might be non-profit, but their members tend to be part of a cult.  This can lead to rigid thinking and even censorship excessive moderation of posters who don't hew to the party line.  They also tend to be heavily moderated because the regular posters don't want to put up with the out-of-the-box newbies (who still aren't reading the FAQs).

This non-profit forum attracts smarter, thoughtful, more articulate posters just by its subject matter.  MMM freely admits that he's running a cult where the members are encouraged to proselytize and be proud of their accomplishments.  The forum's environmentally-conscious theme also means that activities which generate more pollution & waste than others are candidates for mockery.  Best of all, the moderators still have a light hand and avoid getting overly concerned with creating mountains out of moderator molehills.  They let people speak their minds and call each other out when merited.  The more experienced members here have become more open (or more resistant) to criticism and aren't offended by a few blunt words.

C'mon:  what did you expect from a site that uses vocabulary like "badass", "facepunch", "complainypants", and "hair on fire"?

So... if you're a smart newbie* with a thin skin then you've wandered into the wrong bar.  Toughen up or go someplace like Early-Retirement.org or Bogleheads.org. 

[* A poster who joined only a few months ago and has less than a hundred posts]

kite

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2014, 12:41:30 PM »
If anything I'd argue kids is the sacred cow here. In terms of a horrific expense, stress, with little return. What little mention I've seen of pets and travel are pretty scrutinized (but I haven't really looked though).

Anyway. I think much of the point here is to point out possible ways to save, make you think about your choices, consider alternatives, and then it's up to the individual to decide whether to do so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't come here for some recipe for what to do, point by point.

I don't know the specifics, but regarding the powersports example I could imagine people asking whether the joy you derive is worth the high cost, or if there are cheaper alternatives that give the same. Of course it's your money and you can do whatever the hell you want, you don't need approval from random people. It's just suggestions, and might make you think. It certainly has for me on several occasions. "I thought this would make me happier, but would it? I think I'll do X instead"
Personally I would love to have a jet-ski, I'm sure it's awesome! But it's expensive, and a hike in the woods, or trail biking or whatever is cheaper and gives me exercise so I'll do that instead. Just an example. But if you want a jet-ski nobody here is going to stop you, but I retain the right to not approve. In the same way you might not approve of my choices, let me know, and make me think about them.

If you want approval there are plenty of jet-ski, or computer hardware or whatever forums where you can get approval and admiration for every purchase you make:)

I chuckled at first,  because I think the sacred cow in the online world (and this place is no exception) is organic food.  People will not contain their opinions about kids beyond the first one or two.  But few will dare point out that organic food is expensive,  with no proven nutritional or health benefit for the consumer.   

Prepube

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2014, 01:55:03 PM »
Yes, kids are sacred cows.  Animals not so much, as I see people telling op's to get rid of the cat to save money, give away the dogs to manage the budget on a pretty regularly.  Want to save for fire?  Adopt out those expensive children.  Then you can buy a jetski without remorse.

daverobev

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 02:14:31 PM »

I chuckled at first,  because I think the sacred cow in the online world (and this place is no exception) is organic food.  People will not contain their opinions about kids beyond the first one or two.  But few will dare point out that organic food is expensive,  with no proven nutritional or health benefit for the consumer.

"Big ag" is hugely subsidy dependent. Fertiliser is a horrible waste of natural gas, and creates all sorts of problems with run-off. Growing all your food in California - by draining the Colorado river and pumping aquifers in dry years - is a recipe for disaster.

I used to eat organic, but less so now. But I grow at least a certain amount of food. There is nothing sacred about organic; there are certain foods that it is more savvy to eat organic (ie, the ones where there is actually no fertiliser or pesticide used, no point going organic on those!).

"Organic" is now mostly just branding, unless you're buying direct from a small farmer. Large scale organic is done in the same heavy handed way as large scale non organic. Like many things, the initial movement has been co-opted.

The underlying message, IMHO, is: Think about where your food comes from. If you're buying the really cheap chicken, think what that bird has gone through. Engineered to be "all breast", in a cramped cage its whole life, etc, etc.

Less

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 02:26:36 PM »
I was having a discussion with my SO this weekend along these lines. The thing that I am most passionate about is skiing. It's not motor/power sports but it requires a certain level of gear, lift passes, a car that can manage mountain roads etc. There is a lot of admin around it and it takes a fair amount of resource.

For me this is a really important thing and to this point i haven't had to compromise. Thinking about FI has made me more aware of what the cost actually is, and I focus my spending in this area on the things that are going to maximize my enjoyment (i.e. trying not to get over hyped about new gear every season but making an effort to focus on getting more days on the snow). For me it is worth it.

Like another post said further up, its about being able to do anything (not everything) and this is the thing that I love to do.

For now....

iris lily

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 02:33:04 PM »
I have noticed a trend were people will criticize or belittle someone else's "whatever they want" items because they're not what they would choose.  One of the key pieces I like about mustachianism is that you can have whatever you want, you just can't have it all.  The point was to do things in a more efficient manner financially, but if something is truly important to you that you should do it.  I find that people forget this very quickly and criticize others for there must have items being different from their own chosen ones.

I'm only going to criticize someone when they clearly aren't pulling back their spending to where it needs to be. If they choose to restore their old British convertible and eat dog food to compensate, that's smart. Go for it.

It's stupidity that makes me crazy, the stupidity of "we've got  $300,000 in student loans and a new mortgage of $235,000 and two new cars, all on a salary of $85,000 and what do you mean we can't have a nice wedding inviting 300 of our closest friends and an engagement ring of 2 carats? You mean we can't get married????!!!!" when of course the problem isn't getting married, it's spending $30,000 to do so.


Matte

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2014, 03:59:52 PM »
I have noticed a bit of that attitude.   Travel more noble then power sport even though small boats and atvs are filled with 5 gallon gas cans instead of 400 barrel fuel trucks for jets.   A 22mpg awd Subaru superior to a 22 mpg pickup truck. 

I make my choices, they may not fit in with the young cool hip eco things that are treated as superior by the online lifestyle form community.  I drive a GMC sierra, have a boat and travel trailer that get combined over a month of use days per year.  As far as fuel and fun go I see it as good bang for the buck. If I was in hard times they would be gone in a flash, and I save more then 50 percent of my income.

Timmmy

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2014, 10:22:00 AM »
When did things get all sensitive in here?  I harshly judge and I have no problem be harshly judged. 

In fact, it's one of the reasons that I signed up.  Opinionated intelligent people discussing real life decisions.  Those strong opinions I can take and compare to my values and beliefs and see if there is maybe a better way to live my life.


merula

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2014, 11:18:10 AM »
the way I tend to look at it is since I'm buying used equipment someone would end up using it anyways.  I am not buying a new piece which increases demand and makes manufacturers sell more equipment. 

I personally don't think this justification stacks up (I also don't think you need a justification! It's your money, do as you please. And as for environmental complainy-pants, until they are living a carbon neutral life, I think they should practice more and preach less, personally).

But saying that buying second-hand doesn't stimulate demand just doesn't seem like fact to me. If I am willing to buy something second-hand, that gives it inherent value. The person I buy it from can 1) justify the purchase by saying, it will still be worth x in y years (thus leading to purchasing in the first place) and 2) upgrade to the newer version of that thing, when I buy the old thing (leading to the purchase of another).

If nothing had second-hand value, all goods would be worth less, therefore demand would fall. Just my two-cents. What do other people think? Does my reasoning make sense?

Yes, your reasoning makes sense. The true cost of anything is the costs to acquire plus the cost to own/maintain it, less the resale value (or plus the cost of disposal for something with no residual value). By buying something used, you're contributing for second-hand demand, which increases the resale value, which reduces the true cost for those who bought new.

That's not to say that there's no benefit to buying used. If there was no market for used goods, they'd all go in a landfill, so being willing to buy used is beneficial in that sense.

Eric

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 11:35:30 AM »
If you already own your spending, then good for you.  I doubt you're going to start a thread asking whether you should keep your jetski or buy a new one, as you've already decided that it's worth it.  The judgment comes when people are asking for advice, so in their specific case, yes, they should get rid of the jetski because they're in debt, don't use it, it's too much money, whatever.  For that poster, it's a wasteful unnecessary expense.  That does not mean that anyone who buys a jetski deserves a facepunch.  Own your choices and you'll have nothing to worry about.

Zikoris

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 12:36:00 PM »
I can see some on here might judge from an environmental standpoint, but the way I tend to look at it is since I'm buying used equipment someone would end up using it anyways.  I am not buying a new piece which increases demand and makes manufacturers sell more equipment.  Someone would be polluting just as much as me, and given our main body of water is an ecological disaster, I would say it's far more likely that they would be destroying a more intact body of water than I.

Bad logic. A person who otherwise would not jet-ski would not suddenly appear out of nowhere and take up the hobby because you decided not to. If you were to stop the hobby, that would be a net loss of one jetskier, period. If you're going to do it, own up to the fact that there's a degree of environmental pollution that you're contributing to, rather than playing twisty logic games to try to make it disappear.

To answer the question, I think harsh judgements are generally given to financial trainwreck people who are approaching their situation in a way that cannot possibly lead to success by any definition. Further reading: http://weblogs.asp.net/alex_papadimoulis/408925

GuitarStv

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 12:40:50 PM »
There is a disproportionate number of INTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ENFJ personality types here.  We are constantly judging, it's kind of our thing.

justajane

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 12:53:14 PM »
Quote
I chuckled at first,  because I think the sacred cow in the online world (and this place is no exception) is organic food.  People will not contain their opinions about kids beyond the first one or two.  But few will dare point out that organic food is expensive,  with no proven nutritional or health benefit for the consumer.   

Very true from my perspective. Like you point out, the perceived health value of organic makes it seem unassailable to people. I don't really care, if you can afford it. But I know someone in my family who is sacrificing their long term financial health for their perceived physical well being. From my perspective, stress is much worse for your health would ever be than non-organic food, and if you're struggling to stay afloat financially, then organic food is a luxury and not a necessity.

We have three kids and therefore bordering on (or in some peoples' minds firmly entrenched in) breeder territory, and I certainly don't think having kids is a sacred cow. People are terrible about letting their own opinions bubble to the surface of conversation. For instance, when I announced I was pregnant with my third, several people asked, "Was it planned?"   

Kaspian

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 01:44:15 PM »
...The judgment comes when people are asking for advice, so in their specific case, yes, they should get rid of the jetski because they're in debt, don't use it, it's too much money, whatever.  For that poster, it's a wasteful unnecessary expense. 

^^ This!  Well said, Eric.

If it makes the OP feel any better and want to have a laugh at someone else, at some point I'm going to buy these stupid $547 boots to probably only wear once or twice a year. 

http://www.motorcowboy.com/product/CAPT1/Captain-Malcolm-Reynolds-Boots-from-Firefly.html

I go to science fiction conventions (my own firehose of waste hobby) and these are the one thing I'm missing to make my "Firefly/Serenity" costume screen accurate.  (I wouldn't expect anyone else to understand that.)  Before MMM I used to carelessly spend hundreds (err..  thousands?) of dollars on costumes and props.  Yeah, silly.  But the cost of a jetski is silly to me.  Or golf.  ...It's just what people are into.  What a boring world it would be if we all had the same hobbies.

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2014, 02:21:32 PM »
I think there's a benefit to the harsh judgments, whatever level we're at, if we can step back from the emotional content (of the judgment, and of our response). Because we're all different people, it's hard for us to see the flaws in our own reasoning. If smart people on here point out problems with what I'm doing, even if I think I've thought it through, I'll give it another go-around, and I'll try to challenge the cop-outs I come up with.

Almost everything we spend money on is a choice, and worth evaluating. I personally can't imagine spending even a penny on owning a non-edible animal, or dressing up like a fictional character. And I'm sure a jet-ski would be fun once or twice, but I wouldn't own one. On the other hand, this site has helped me re-evaluate my travel, grown-child-subsidizing, and magazine-buying habits, in ways that might have seemed harsh to me at first.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2014, 02:24:07 PM »
I understand - I made my niece and nephew authentic Star Trek jackets for Christmas one year - authentic because the pattern was bought at a con, not from Simplicity.  They said it was their best Christmas present ever, and they got rave reviews when they wore them at cons.  So whatever matters to you, matters.

Re the jetski, I always found a Laser much more fun, just me and the wind and the boat - and a Laser is high performance when there is a good breeze.  Major adrenaline rush - not to mention the possibility of dumping.  But each to his/her own.


If it makes the OP feel any better and want to have a laugh at someone else, at some point I'm going to buy these stupid $547 boots to probably only wear once or twice a year. 

I go to science fiction conventions (my own firehose of waste hobby) and these are the one thing I'm missing to make my "Firefly/Serenity" costume screen accurate.  (I wouldn't expect anyone else to understand that.) 

Elderwood17

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2014, 02:36:23 PM »
I am pretty new here, but I haven't found a lot of judging or related. 

I can of look at this place as my "frugality work out room", where I want to work out and be pushed to the next level.  I am fine if someone says "that's a waste, you can do better" as that is the spirit in which I hope I would take it.  And I agree whatever is important to you, that is what counts.

I do find though that I am getting worse at judging others around me as I see the wasted financial resources every day....hoping that will pass.

Dicey

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2014, 02:50:36 PM »
As is often the case: what Nords said.

I often wonder about the personal financial situation of the haters. I think they might be people less far along in their FI journey. It reminds me of a toddler who screams when someone grabs his toy, i.e they don't have what they want and don't want you to have it either.

Seems like once people achieve FIRE they tend to relax a little. Now that it's second nature, they know what they can spend without breaking the bank.

briandougherty

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2014, 03:13:56 PM »
As is often the case: what Nords said.

I often wonder about the personal financial situation of the haters. I think they might be people less far along in their FI journey. It reminds me of a toddler who screams when someone grabs his toy, i.e they don't have what they want and don't want you to have it either.

Seems like once people achieve FIRE they tend to relax a little. Now that it's second nature, they know what they can spend without breaking the bank.

Well, I think that's the MMM story; be tighter on money until you're FIRE sustainably. Most of our answers are for people who aren't FIRE.  My experience has been that it's great to be encouraged to do more, save more until you get to where your assets can sustain your desired income. Maybe some of us may be dogmatic or always err on the side of cutting back but almost never have I seen anything I'd characterize as "they don't have what they want and don't want you to have it either".

jmink

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2014, 03:41:20 PM »
I'm new on the forums, but I've found people are generally fairly kind if challenging about money matters.  For example I posted here[1] that I wanted to buy an SUV to drive around in with just my dog and there was almost no face punching.  I was surprised.

On the flip side there are harsh comments about people's SOs when a couple isn't currently seeing eye to eye.  See: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/wife-flipped-out-when-i-brought-up-the-idea/

[1] http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/talk-me-out-of-an-suv/

happy

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2014, 04:14:33 PM »
The" harsh" judgements or face punching comes from a tradition of getting others to give feedback to assist one to re-examine ones ideas,values and spending. You are not going to get honest feedback form consumerist society , lets face it. Mostly I think those judgements are given when asked for, and reasonably civilly, albeit blunt. If you don't want an honest answer, don't post it.

I'm not that surprised jmink didn't much of a face punch  for the SUV - personally I am sick of "Can I have a" "talk me out of" posts, always with a million rationalisations that whatever is essential. Any suggestion of a face punch and usually results in another long list of rationalisations. I don't read these anymore and I suspect a lot of longer term members don't either. jmink - I am not directing this at you specifically - I haven't read your post and won't be.

I have a few nonmustachian vestiges that I am very aware of and working towards undoing. I would never post asking for advice ( since I know what the advice would be) and then try to argue that my area of weakness is totally mustachian.  If I feel the community might be able to assist me with letting go/changing/brainstorming solutions I will post with an open  spirit of humility and receive and evaluate the advice which after due diligence I may or may not implement, but not  just to argue that I'm OK.

StartingEarly

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2014, 07:30:48 PM »
I can understand pushing others to their goals, but it still seems anitmustachian to tell people that their categories are worse than yours if they're financially responsible.

RapmasterD

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2014, 09:04:29 PM »
Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.  I just tend to see a lot of hate towards powersports from people on here that didn't grow up around them.  They don't tend to understand because it wasn't a huge part of their lives.  I tend to do it in a fairly financially conservative manner.  My bike was under 3k, and the jet ski I am considering for next year is under 2k.  I don't see how it's a big deal that I spend a good portion of my discretionary fund that I allow myself access to on something I truly enjoy.  I tend to save about 70 percent a year or so on my net, so I don't see fuel bills sinking me anytime soon.

Yeah I have posted on this issue before. I even wrote a blog post about it last year http://themoney-monk.blogspot.com/2013/12/it-doesnt-matter-what-you-spend-your.html

Savings rate is what matters. what exactly you spend the rest on is mostly irrelevant as long as it is sustainable and not irresponsible in some way (like you are mooching off relatives and spending yoru money on strip clubs instead of paying rent).

People on these forums wouldn't bat an eye if you spend $5000 a year on pets, travel etc (two sacred cows around here) but will excoriate you if you don't have pets or care about travel and would rather spend that $5000 on a car, or going to live sporting events, or any other expensive hobby. They take the arbitrary opinion that the pursuits that THEY like are worthwhile experiences, but the stuff other people enjoy is a waste of money and "unmustachian".

I've stopped arguing with people about it because it's not a rational position they are taking so it's not worth your breadth.

Just make your plan for FIRE, and spend your discretionary money on whatever makes you happy. If you are ok being miserable and not doing things you enjoy, then there is no point in trying to be FI in the first place, you can just work forever.

Good wisdom all around! Let's use all caps to emphasize a key point here: SAVINGS RATE IS WHAT MATTERS.

stlbrah

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2014, 11:44:12 PM »
I like when people try to talk me out of buying things. I'm used to people rying to get me to "loosen up" and blow thousands or tens of thousands on things that will only create hassle.

kite

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2014, 05:36:31 AM »
Quote
I chuckled at first,  because I think the sacred cow in the online world (and this place is no exception) is organic food.  People will not contain their opinions about kids beyond the first one or two.  But few will dare point out that organic food is expensive,  with no proven nutritional or health benefit for the consumer.   

Very true from my perspective. Like you point out, the perceived health value of organic makes it seem unassailable to people. I don't really care, if you can afford it. But I know someone in my family who is sacrificing their long term financial health for their perceived physical well being. From my perspective, stress is much worse for your health would ever be than non-organic food, and if you're struggling to stay afloat financially, then organic food is a luxury and not a necessity.

We have three kids and therefore bordering on (or in some peoples' minds firmly entrenched in) breeder territory, and I certainly don't think having kids is a sacred cow. People are terrible about letting their own opinions bubble to the surface of conversation. For instance, when I announced I was pregnant with my third, several people asked, "Was it planned?"
Incredible that they even ask such a question with no clue how rude it is.  A friend planned on three,  and had a surprise 4th pregnancy.   Random people asked,  "Just how many do you want?"  She'd reply, "only one,  but we haven't picked out which one."   I come from a very large family,  and can't stress enough how grateful I am to my parents for giving me so many siblings.   When I see the difference between my mother with many kids and grandchildren versus her childless sister,  the challenges they face in the eighth,  ninth and tenth decades are far easier to cope with for the one with several adult children as compared to just having money.   

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2014, 06:35:36 AM »
If you already own your spending, then good for you.  I doubt you're going to start a thread asking whether you should keep your jetski or buy a new one, as you've already decided that it's worth it.  The judgment comes when people are asking for advice, so in their specific case, yes, they should get rid of the jetski because they're in debt, don't use it, it's too much money, whatever.  For that poster, it's a wasteful unnecessary expense.  That does not mean that anyone who buys a jetski deserves a facepunch.  Own your choices and you'll have nothing to worry about.

This!

I have some very un-Mustachian hobbies and interests.  I won't be posting them here asking if they are OK?  If I've decided they are how I want to spend my money, I don't need permission from the MMM crowd.  I've made lots of progress in my life thanks to MMM, but I won't ever be the poster-boy for Mustachianism (is that a word?) and I'm OK with that.

Timmmy

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2014, 07:34:46 AM »
If you already own your spending, then good for you.  I doubt you're going to start a thread asking whether you should keep your jetski or buy a new one, as you've already decided that it's worth it.  The judgment comes when people are asking for advice, so in their specific case, yes, they should get rid of the jetski because they're in debt, don't use it, it's too much money, whatever.  For that poster, it's a wasteful unnecessary expense.  That does not mean that anyone who buys a jetski deserves a facepunch.  Own your choices and you'll have nothing to worry about.

This!

I have some very un-Mustachian hobbies and interests.  I won't be posting them here asking if they are OK?  If I've decided they are how I want to spend my money, I don't need permission from the MMM crowd.  I've made lots of progress in my life thanks to MMM, but I won't ever be the poster-boy for Mustachianism (is that a word?) and I'm OK with that.

I think the key is to acknowledge that there are more efficient uses of money but this is how you are choosing to spend yours.  I think most of the face punches come from the logic behind the decisions and not the actual decisions themselves. 

briandougherty

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2014, 07:57:58 AM »
I can understand pushing others to their goals, but it still seems anitmustachian to tell people that their categories are worse than yours if they're financially responsible.

Good wisdom all around! Let's use all caps to emphasize a key point here: SAVINGS RATE IS WHAT MATTERS.

I don't know about either of these. I'm not a particularly 'badass' person, but MMM loves his badassity. Muscle over Motor, How to Carry Major Appliances on your Bike, DIY Installation, these are all MMM's philosophy.  He is very DIY, don't take the easy way out, etc. His whole cult of personality is about not taking the easy way out and you can avoid some/many expenses. He's not just a guy saying, "save 75% and you're fine". He's saying use your muscles, do your own work, eating out is decadence. It's not a surprise that people on the forum would reflect some of those values.

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2014, 11:23:07 AM »
Being critiqued by a bunch of people on the MMM forum is not the same as standing before God Almighty.  On the plus side, the wrath isn't accompanied by smiting and plagues etc. but on the downside you can't expect some divine level of objectivity and fairness. These are just human beings who are volunteering their opinions and offering free advice.

So, yeah, if your expensive hobby is something that I'm personally not into, it's going to be hard for me not to question it.  And the likeliest situation is that a group of people will tilt one way or another, so there will be some activities that are less popular than others.

Dicey

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2014, 11:35:33 AM »
Incredible that they even ask such a question with no clue how rude it is.  A friend planned on three,  and had a surprise 4th pregnancy.   Random people asked,  "Just how many do you want?"  She'd reply, "only one,  but we haven't picked out which one."   I come from a very large family,  and can't stress enough how grateful I am to my parents for giving me so many siblings.   When I see the difference between my mother with many kids and grandchildren versus her childless sister,  the challenges they face in the eighth,  ninth and tenth decades are far easier to cope with for the one with several adult children as compared to just having money.   

Amen! I am one of six sibs. Next week we are convening an emergency meeting at my parents house to figure out what's next. The chief care giving sister has cracked, and parents are finally willing to admit they need more help and a possible change of living arrangement. It is so hard to know you're doing the right thing, especially when there is a lot of stubbornness and denial on my mom's part.
Oh please, when you see your mom-of-four friend, give her a big hug for me! What a drop-dead perfect reply. I'll be sharing this one with my sibs next week; I'm sure we will all need the laugh.

Bateaux

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2014, 11:55:03 AM »
The Mustacian lifestyle to me is about freedom.  I have a Ford F250 Diesel as my primary vehicle (close your mouths flys are getting in).  We have 3 boats and a jetski (yes we are evil incarnate).  We own two timeshares and spend multiple weeks a year vacationing in 5 star luxury condo's (some of you are reaching for the holy water and crosses, relax we pay less than $100 a night on average and we bought the timeshare cheap).  I haven't FIRED yet, but I have FU money and we're debt free.  I plan to spend 50 to 60k annually when I FIRE.  Some say that's not Mustacian enough.  I say it's about choice.  I could make it on what we have now but many factors favor me working till 50, I'm 46.  Our wealth is increasing at over 100k annually right now with company and personal contributions with interest.  Our 1.6M in assets will reach 2M rapidly.  At 2M I can withdraw 3% and get my 60K with almost ZERO risk.  Most likely I'll spend less than 60k and the nest egg grows.  Eventually it becomes legacy funds for my family and charity.

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2014, 12:55:20 PM »

I welcome the face punches, but I'm keeping my dog.

I second that!

OSUBearCub

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2014, 02:42:23 PM »
Has anyone answered the question with "some people are just assholes by nature" yet? 

I've been lurking then posting for over a year now.  There are a couple names that I've come to expect will always say something dickish.  It's just the nature of the beast; I'm learning a ton and the pros outweigh the cons for me.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Why do we have harsh judgements that go beyond basic mustacianism frequently?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2014, 02:51:01 PM »
I guess I come here hoping people will really challenge me to re-think what is worth it and what is not... that's what makes this forum and the MMM blog valuable to me. If I just wanted to hear my own priorities and opinions I'd talk to myself. sure some people have more abrasive personalities than others, but it's the internet, I wouldn't take it personally.