Should I take a 50% pay cut for a closer job?

[jexy103]

Background: My husband and I recently became debt free, and we bring home about $80,000 combined net. We're saving about 27% this year, which isn't a lot by mustachian standards, but we're steadily increasing it. We would like to retire in about 15 years, when my husband reaches his 20 years in the military, but I wouldn't mind if it happened sooner! We don't have kids, but would like to in the next 1-3 years.

Current job: Pays $40,000 gross. I'm a Secretary, and I don't feel fulfilled in my job, but it is pretty cushy in certain respects. Hours are 8:30am to 5pm, M-F. I'm in the GS system of the federal government, which can be difficult to get into, so I'm a little reluctant to leave the system, but I know I could get back in through various preference programs. The worst part (aside from the not-fulfilling part) is that it's 18 miles away and about 2 hours of commute a day due to traffic and parking.

Potential job: Pays $10.78 an hour, 35-40 hours a week (with access to 401(k) and match). Assuming 35 hours, that would be only $19,600 a year, but the money isn't my primary concern (schedule is). It would be as an Assistant Manager of a bowling alley only 1.5 miles of easy biking from home. Hours would be 5-10pm during the week, and ~8-hour shifts on the weekends. I would be committing to working every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night of every week plus holidays. My husband and I don't really do much during those times anyway (except holidays, we usually do something fun), but it's a concern to me that we wouldn't even have the option to go out together or hang out with friends during the normal social times. And my husband works days M-F, so I'm not sure how much I'd get to see him. But I would get to see the sun during the week (and not just through the windshield).

Skills: I'm working toward my MBA, so despite the pay cut, I see this as a promotion, where I'll be overseeing others, managing inventory, etc. The other thing is that working nights would free up my days to focus on schoolwork, instead of studying at the end of a 10-hour day. I think I'll learn a lot from being Asst Manager that would help me in future managerial positions or if I/when I decide to become self-employed, while there's not much more I can learn from the Secretary position that would be transferrable to another job. I think the skills/experience from being an Asst Manager would help me land a better job in a year or two compared to if I stayed here making more in the meantime.

Mustachianism: If I took this job, I would definitely bike there, but I don't know that we'd sell my vehicle (we have two). It's definitely something we'd consider, and if we did, the sale amount would go straight to savings. Even if we keep it, I would save a lot of time, and about $120 in gas each month, plus less in maintenance and insurance costs. I would be also be getting a lot more exercise! And I would have a more casual dress code, so I'd spend less time getting ready for work and less on clothing each year. 

Final Thoughts: My husband is supportive of me no matter what I choose. He knows I'm not happy with my current job, but it would mean a lot less time together. I'm leaning towards the Asst Manager position, but I guess I'm looking for support from the wonderful, mustachian people here. I don't want to take this closer job and think that I'm being mustachian by finding a job within biking distance, when I would have been more mustchian by staying with the higher paying job to have more savings.

[boy_bye]

the closer job sounds like more fun, but, honestly, i worked an opposite shift from my husband for several months a few years ago, and i hated it. i just missed getting to spend time together. he worked 9-5 M-F and i worked, like you, evenings and weekends. just as he was coming home for his weekend on friday i was getting ready to go to work. that part really sucked.

i like our lives together better when we're more in synch time-wise. just something to think about.

[lizzigee]

Just a couple of thoughts, neither of which relate to the maths.

Do you feel safe biking home at 10 pm at night? I know it's only a short distance, but as a female in an area where crime is increasing, I'd be too chicken myself.  The other thing is, if you are planning having children in the fairly near future, are you planning on returning to work part time/full time/never if possible?  Look at which job, if either, will best suit your needs for this.

[Joel]

I would probably look for something closer to you that had "normal" hours and perhaps less of a pay cut. It's very possible being an MBA student that you could find something better. Perhaps stringing together part-time tutoring jobs with something else.

[Freda]

I wouldn't take a job working opposite hours of my husband unless it was really necessary.

[olivia]

I definitely would not go from a cush office job to working retail for such little money.  I worked retail for about 7 years (store manager) and in my experience a retail background is just not respected or valued in the marketplace, despite the management experience and skills acquired.  I left it for an office job and it was like starting over completely.  I did prove myself and was promoted, but I still wasn't really respected by my superiors as an experienced manager. 

And working nights and weekends sucks, particularly if your husband has opposite hours.  Working holidays also sucks.  You really do end up missing quite a bit of time with friends and family when you work a nontraditional schedule.  (If most of them are on a traditional 9-5 schedule, that is.)  Aside from the proximity to your house, there doesn't seem to be much of an upside to this job IMO.  Is there any way you can find an office job closer to your house?  That commute does sound crappy.

[bdub]

A couple of thoughts:

-If your current 18 mi commute takes 2 hours, that means there is a LOT of commuters on the road and (likely) a lot of businesses between where you live and where you currently work.  I agree with others, you may want to find something with hours more aligned with your husband's hours.

-I don't intend for this to sound snobby but, getting experience at a bowling alley and getting a MBA aren't really symbiotic. Meaning:  the experience as an assistant manager at a bowling alley won't help much when you are looking for jobs that want MBA graduates.  For better or worse, people that intentionally hire MBAs will likely see your management experience as only work used to pay the bills while in school.  Also, you don't need an MBA to get promoted in a retail environment until you are WAY up the chain (VP+).

Your best bet may be to find another secretary job in a company that is 1.  closer to home AND 2. has career potential for when you finish your MBA program.

My $0.02 (inflation-adjusted)

[BPA]

the closer job sounds like more fun, but, honestly, i worked an opposite shift from my husband for several months a few years ago, and i hated it. i just missed getting to spend time together. he worked 9-5 M-F and i worked, like you, evenings and weekends. just as he was coming home for his weekend on friday i was getting ready to go to work. that part really sucked.

i like our lives together better when we're more in synch time-wise. just something to think about.

I truly believe this was one of the reasons my ex and I split.  Also, when you have a family, it sucks to not spend time together as a family even though you might save on child care costs. 

[chicagomeg]

Just to play devils advocate, my mom has worked 6-midnight 5 days per week (varying days) for going on 18 years. My dad isn't crazy about it, but my mom really likes having her space and it worked great when I was in school (my mom started working this job when I was in kindergarten).

[I Love Cake]

This thread reminds me of Homer Simpson's dream job to work in a bowling alley! I think it does sound like a fun job but because of the hours I wouldn't take it.

It may be fine now but if you do end up having kids you will want to spend time with them on weekend, holidays and evenings.

If I were single I would do it. But not as a married person who may have kids

I agree you should try to find another job-maybe even still in the gov't but a different location?

[olivia]

A couple of thoughts:

-If your current 18 mi commute takes 2 hours, that means there is a LOT of commuters on the road and (likely) a lot of businesses between where you live and where you currently work.  I agree with others, you may want to find something with hours more aligned with your husband's hours.

-I don't intend for this to sound snobby but, getting experience at a bowling alley and getting a MBA aren't really symbiotic. Meaning:  the experience as an assistant manager at a bowling alley won't help much when you are looking for jobs that want MBA graduates.  For better or worse, people that intentionally hire MBAs will likely see your management experience as only work used to pay the bills while in school.  Also, you don't need an MBA to get promoted in a retail environment until you are WAY up the chain (VP+).

Your best bet may be to find another secretary job in a company that is 1.  closer to home AND 2. has career potential for when you finish your MBA program.

My $0.02 (inflation-adjusted)

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say!  It may sound snobby but it's totally true.  I managed a store that did several million dollars a year in sales and it didn't impress anyone when I was job hunting or when I got hired.  A bowling alley isn't likely to impress either.

[jexy103]

Do you feel safe biking home at 10 pm at night?

Yes, I'd be working on the same military base that we live on, so I'd feel perfectly safe.

I definitely would not go from a cush office job to working retail for such little money.  I worked retail for about 7 years (store manager) and in my experience a retail background is just not respected or valued in the marketplace, despite the management experience and skills acquired.

Thank you for this insight. I was thinking that assistant manager was better than secretary, but I could very well be wrong.

-If your current 18 mi commute takes 2 hours, that means there is a LOT of commuters on the road and (likely) a lot of businesses between where you live and where you currently work.

You'd think, but not really. :-) We live on Oahu, so more than half of my commute is going up and over the mountain (10 miles between exits). There are two towns on my side of the island that are close, but my work is the second exit off the highway once I get to the Honolulu side. The traffic is terrible in the evenings (15-20 minutes to go the first 2 miles, then smooth sailing the rest of the way), but the mornings only take so long because I never know if there will be an accident that would make me late, and parking is terrible. So I leave an hour before I start work, and then if traffic isn't bad, I'm at work 20-25 minutes early.

...getting experience at a bowling alley and getting a MBA aren't really symbiotic. Meaning:  the experience as an assistant manager at a bowling alley won't help much when you are looking for jobs that want MBA graduates.

Thank you for this insight!


Thank you, everyone, for sharing your opinions. I was leaning toward taking the Asst Manager job, but you've all given me a lot to think about. The federal government has a hiring freeze in place, and since I've been looking for positions on base, the jobs available right now are extremely limited. Maybe I'll broaden my search to non-government positions in the nearby town. A little piece of me dies every time I have to commute to/from work here, so I do need to fix that issue, but it doesn't have to be this month and that position. Before I heard about this position, I was planning to wait out the hiring freeze and look for other GS positions, so I suppose I'll return to that plan of attack or look off base. Thank you so much for your advice and perspective- I'm very thankful for your responses and I'm glad I asked for feedback!

[mm1970]

Can you bike?  If traffic is really bad when you first leave work for 2 miles...is there a place where you could park outside that 2 miles?

Drive to work, stop 3 miles out.  Park.  Bike the rest of the way.

On the way home: reverse.

I used to do something like this when it would take 20 mins to go the last 4 piles to pick up my child from childcare.  I could bike it in 10 min.

[DocCyane]

If I had a government job, nothing would get me to leave it. The real world of employment has become too fragile.

[superheropunk]

I'll chime in about the 2 hours round trip commute. There must be something that could improve this??? That doesn't sound right...

Looks like you might have some increased expenses in the future... Would think as others have said you are better off getting the MBA and looking to increase your salary so you can save more and meet the 10-15 year retirement goal...

[jexy103]

Can you bike?  If traffic is really bad when you first leave work for 2 miles...is there a place where you could park outside that 2 miles?

Drive to work, stop 3 miles out.  Park.  Bike the rest of the way.

On the way home: reverse.

I used to do something like this when it would take 20 mins to go the last 4 piles to pick up my child from childcare.  I could bike it in 10 min.

I've looked into this, but there's really no way for me to do this. I could go into all the complainypants details, but biking the last mile to work just isn't an option for me because my work is on the side of a steep volcanic mountain. I tried it once, and I pushed my bike more than I rode it and my chronic hip injury hurt for days afterward just from walking up that steep of a hill.

I'll chime in about the 2 hours round trip commute. There must be something that could improve this??? That doesn't sound right...

When I drive to work, I leave the house around 7:30, drive in, arrive around 8:05 if traffic is good, look for a parking space (which is usually in the grass), sit in my car for 5-15 minutes depending on how early I am, and then hike up the seven flights of stairs from my parking space to the front door. (Told you- steep hill.) I start work at 8:30. If I leave the house later than 7:30, I'd be late if 1) all the parking spaces were gone, or 2) the traffic was worse than usual. In the evenings, I leave work at 5pm, walk down to my car, and drive to the highway. From the time that I hit the on ramp to the time that I get off that highway about a mile later, it's usually at least 10-15 minutes. If there's an accident or it's raining, add 10-20 minutes. From my highway to home, it's a pretty easy 15 miles in about 25 minutes. I usually get home by 5:50 if there are no accidents or rain.

The bus system here is pretty good, but because of how it's set up and where I'm going, I need to take three different routes. I have to leave the house around 6:20 to walk to the nearest bus stop for 6:48 (I left my bike at the bus stop once, and when I came back, my lock had been tampered with; stolen bikes are a huge issue here). I take that bus to downtown Honolulu at 7:33 and wait 11 minutes for a transfer. I get on that bus at 7:44 to go west to the next transfer point. I wait there for 16 minutes until the bus picks me up at 8:15 to drive the last two miles, and then I get to work just barely on time. I tried walking the last two miles once, but my hip let me know not to do that again and it didn't save time. Then I'd repeat to get home; I get off work at 5pm and don't get home until about 7:20pm on bus days.

The bus also doesn't run late enough to get me home from my night classes for my MBA, so the bus isn't even an option on class nights. The cost of round-trip bus tickets is $5; the cost of gas for round-trip is about $4.25 right now and saves about 3 hours a day of time.

Stay with the government job; it's a gift. Consider moving closer to work.

That's it. That's all I've got.

Thanks, I do love being in the GS system. We live rent-free on the base that my husband works on. He commutes the 2 miles to his work by bike every day. So moving wouldn't solve this because then he'd be commuting, plus we'd have the hassle of moving again. And I can't find a GS government position on our base until the hiring freeze is lifted, which I don't expect to be until October (new fiscal year) or later. I may just have to suck it up and deal until then.

Again, thank you to everyone for your advice and suggestions!

[MooreBonds]

Thanks, I do love being in the GS system. We live rent-free on the base that my husband works on. He commutes the 2 miles to his work by bike every day. So moving wouldn't solve this because then he'd be commuting, plus we'd have the hassle of moving again. And I can't find a GS government position on our base until the hiring freeze is lifted, which I don't expect to be until October (new fiscal year) or later. I may just have to suck it up and deal until then.

Again, thank you to everyone for your advice and suggestions!

One other thing - don't forget the value of your current benefits: do you qualify for a pension or any other benefits that a non-government job probably wouldn't offer? And don't forget the ultra-low expense ratio of the fund choices in the TSP - that's definitely a benefit to factor in!

[Left]

Could you bike to work? If you are comfortable with it and weather allows, at 18 miles away, you could make the trip in a little over a hour if you are in decent shape and the road is fairly flat.

That is, if you have a place to change/get ready for the GS job. Not sure you can show up sweaty and looking like you just rode to work but maybe you can?

My other suggestion along with the bike is to take the bus half way then ride the bike the rest of the way if it is close to some bus spots.

[jexy103]

One other thing - don't forget the value of your current benefits: do you qualify for a pension or any other benefits that a non-government job probably wouldn't offer? And don't forget the ultra-low expense ratio of the fund choices in the TSP - that's definitely a benefit to factor in!

I have health insurance through my husband (active duty military), but I have life insurance through work and I definitely take advantage of the TSP. The other position is NAF (Non-Appropriated Funds), so it's still technically a government job, but it's not the GS system that most people think of when they hear "government job". I would still have access to the TSP with the NAF job. I've been a federal civilian for less than a year, and I hope to RE before the minimum retirement age for a pension, so that's not really a consideration.

... You could make the trip in a little over a hour if ... the road is fairly flat.

This photo (http://laurenho33.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pali-highway.jpg) is the 'bikeable' (in the sense of 'legal to ride a bike on it') road between my house and work. Keep in mind that we live at about 5 feet of elevation, about 3 miles from the base of this road (Pali Highway). :-) I did take my bike on the bus one day to the other side of the mountain and I biked the last two miles to work, but even that was brutal with the steepness of the road to my work.

But thank you both for your suggestions and advice! I've decided to stay with my current job until I can find a GS job closer to home once the hiring freeze lifts. The commute is gorgeous, but I'd still rather a short bike ride than a long drive!

[Nords]

But thank you both for your suggestions and advice! I've decided to stay with my current job until I can find a GS job closer to home once the hiring freeze lifts. The commute is gorgeous, but I'd still rather a short bike ride than a long drive!

You would hope that the bowling alley would give you more thinking-on-your-feet experience, or maybe a little quiet study time.  That two-hour commute is soul-crushing.  I would think that although "alley manager" might be only 2 or 3 out of 10 on the resume respect meter, that might still be higher than "secretary".

It's a tough call.  You'd like to go for more personal development (and less commute) but there's also less spouse time.  But hypothetically you'd be happier together during the reduced spouse time because you haven't been stressed & exhausted from dealing with the commute.  And at $4/gal your commute costs would drop like a rock.

I'll chime in about the 2 hours round trip commute. There must be something that could improve this??? That doesn't sound right...

Honolulu recently lost its #1 ranking as nation's worst traffic:  to Los Angeles.  So now we're sucking it up as #2.  The routes over the Ko'olau are some of the most heavily-traveled roads on the island, and people drive over them texting way too fast for the conditions.  (Frankly the scenery is pretty distracting, too.)  A crash will lengthen everyone's commute by 30-60 minutes.  If someone gets killed then the police will just shut down the road for several hours.

The bicycle route that's being discussed is also too dangerous.  I know motorcyclists who won't even do it anymore.  It's not that Oahu's drivers are so bad as much as that they're so unpredictable.

The bicycle challenge is a lot easier to understand from a topographic map of Oahu with a bicycle-path overlay:  http://www.hbl.org/oahu-bike-map  Choose Google's "Earth" view for a 3D experience.  Note that blue routes are for experienced riders and black routes are euphemistically "Not bicycle friendly".  How thoughtful of the Bicycle League to include the crash data.  It's been that way since the early 1990s.

The island's bicycle-only paths are mostly along the waterfront and not up into the hills (let alone over the Ko'olau).  Sharing the road is difficult.  The commute Jexy's describing over a primary ("interstate") highway is not open to bicycles, and the secondary road that allows bikes is just one of the most dangerous rides you could ever hope to attempt... even if motor vehicles were not using it.  The summit is almost constant rain from tradewind showers.  Winds gust up to 50 MPH in some areas.  There are also frequent rain showers and oil slicks on the hairpins.  During winter storms there are falling branches, small mudslides, and potholes. 

I don't know the precise elevation of the Pali Lookout, but from one side of the Ko'olau to the other has to be an altitude change of at least 1000 feet up and another 1000 down. 

During my working days I put more miles on my bicycle (Pearl Harbor - Central Oahu) than on my car, 12 miles each way.  But then we moved a little further north over Roosevelt Bridge in Kipapa Gulch, which is marked in blood-red on the paper bicycle map.  Beautiful scenery but the drivers are not... how should I put this... bicycle aware.  I could keep up with the 40 mph traffic going down into the gulch and over the bridge, but going up the other side (where they were now 40 mph faster than me) was terrifying.  The only escape option was going over the guardrail but the reality is that I never would've had a chance to react.  I've done the uphill ride in tradewind squalls so hard that my tires were slipping on the pavement, even though rain wasn't in the forecast.

However the waterfront bicycle paths are pretty nice, as long as you can keep the damn pedestrians off the asphalt.  They're under the impression that it's a walking trail.

[Left]

hm, on a side note, could you do better using a scooter? I'm not too sure how well the engine do on that altitude but where I work, the parking garages have places for motorcycles/scooters. If the place you are at have the same, it might help with finding parking spots. The traffic, I can't say it'd be easier but you'd be more free to move in and out of it; I'm not sure if that would be more beneficial than the terror of being hit all the time by cars.

Just looking from the picture and how nice it looks, are there cable cars/ziplines you can take to get up/down the mountain? Maybe push for one to local government as a tourist draw :)

[mm1970]

Is there a gym facility on base and a place where you could shower before work?  If it were me, I would leave the house at 7:00, before traffic gets bad so you avoid the rush and also have a better chance at parking, and work out (even just a brisk walk would be better than nothing) before starting work.  then after work I would spend an hour or so doing reading or homework, waiting for the traffic to die down, and then heading home.  You could also swap those things out if you don't have a shower at work -- do the homework/reading in the morning and do your workout before heading home.  Makes for a long day, but is a more efficient use of time/less stressful than sitting in traffic for long periods.

Your employer is probably not amenable to flex time, but that is how I deal with my horrific cross-Beijing commute -- I work 7-3, catch the bus/subway at 5:30 and get to the office around 6:45.  Eat my breakfast at my desk.  Leave at 3 most days, usually home by 4;15-4:30, time to work out before dinner.  Sucks getting up so early in the winter when it is cold and dark, subway helps a bit (used to sit in a freezing cold bus for over an hour, longjohns and down coat are my friends), but not so bad in the summer.  My commute is definitely the most sucky thing about my job, though, and something I am also considering as I weigh my options for the near and distant future.  I'd be willing to consider a paycut for a closer job and/or more work from home flexibility.

I was going to suggest the opposite.  Since the worst traffic is on your way home, I would consider trying to get a workout in, or something, before leaving for home.  At least around here, leaving at 5:30 or 5:45 pm is awful, but 6 pm is much faster.

[Snow White]

One small word of caution on leaving your job; I am currently a manager in state government and posted a job last month for a high level administrative assistant position ($38-$45 K/yr). It was posted for 10 days and I received 241 applications!  23 of them were from people who had an MBA.  I wouldn't have given a second look at someone who had worked in a bowling alley.  Not because it isn't honorable work but because it has nothing to do with what I was looking for.  I didn't interview any of the MBAs by the way and hired an internal candidate.  Which leads me to my point...can you look internally for a different job that would let you either work from home or flex your schedule so you aren't driving during rush hour?

[CrochetStache]

With your husband an active duty servicemember, how much longer will you be in your current location? In the last 14 years my husband and I have moved a total of 7 times on gov't orders. 3 year orders mean nothing when it comes to 'needs of the military,' moves happen.

So how long will you really be at this job you don't like?

[kimmarg]

I would stick with the GS. Once you get a year in on GS you are eligible to apply for status e.g. 'Existing federal employee' jobs.  This includes both military civilian openings as well as all federal agencies since you'll be moving with your husband in the military, you'll get another chance. As a existing GS and military spouse you will get preference for future positions which you might like a lot and could use your MBA skills. 

Having had a 2hr commute to a GS job I know how much is sucks. How to make it bearable? Vanpool. The feds will pay for your Public transit or vanpool costs. This saved me. You will still have a 2 hr commute, but at least you can sleep or read or whatever most days instead of driving. Also it will be free to you! (Last I saw the max benefit was $110/month - dig around your Agency to find out how it works. for the army its the "mass transportqtion benefit progrqm" ) here's a website for Hawaii van pools. Not sure if it is near you, but check it out. http://www.lotma.org/pages/vanpool.html