The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Moustaches on May 09, 2017, 10:47:37 AM
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Are your dividends reinvested automatically or have you set them to give you cash?
If you switch them to cash, it could help your wife visualize the "income" that your investments make, and reduce the stress of you taking a pay cut.
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I'd switch to cash now (even if you don't need it), because it's difficult for most (including your wife probably) to think about money "making money."
You can always keep adding to your investment accounts even with pulling out the cash. It would just be making a choice of "we are taking this income and making the choice to invest it." Because then, if your wife wants to spend it, your income is still $66k + $50k + $26k in dividends (2% of 1.3M).
If you are going to take a pay cut from $130k -> $50k, you are basically 'retiring' and you might as well switch your finances to mirror that.
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sounds like your wife needs help visualizing the numbers as dividends are relatively intangible for most people. Its hard to translate "dividends" into how much income it would be.
Try setting up a spreadsheet and running some calculations to show her how much income you both would be bringing in if you make the switch, something tangible like "here's how much money we would be deposited into our bank account compared to currently". That might help calm her down if she feels like things won't be sliding backward. Especially with two young kids she may feel like stability is most important and isn't following the numbers.
Her comment regarding anxiety over being the higher earner could indicate an underlying issue, though, so best to take care of the monetary concerns and see if she still feels anxious/resentful of being the higher wage earner at that point.
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Clicked on the thread to say you should always listen to your wife.
Now, the math works for you. She had an emotional reaction. Changing her mind won't happen in a single conversation. If you've had a series of conversations, you could suggest counseling.
Does she have a networth number where she would feel comfortable with you taking a lower-paying job?
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If she's stressed about being the breadwinner, what about this?
You take the nonprofit job: $50k/yr
She quits: $0k/yr
Dividends on $1.3MM: $26k/yr
Annual expenses: $50k (no more need for childcare)
Result: Life is good?
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When I left my full-time job 10 years ago, it meant cutting our income by 50% and it was tough emotionally. It felt like a very big financial risk. But my health required a change. However, we found that our quality of life improved a great deal when I left my job. And we actually continued to save a good chunk of money and still do. We were spending a lot of money on "escape" activities to relieve my stress. We were eating out a LOT because I was too tired to cook and clean when I got home. To date, we have no regrets about that decision to cut our income. We would definitely do it over again.
Are there any tangible benefits to your job change that you can talk to your wife about? How would this change affect your, and your family's, quality of life?
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Clicked on the thread to say you should always listen to your wife.
Me too.
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You think child care costs END soon?
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I dunno, what's your FI #? I'd keep working the high paying job till the full FI # was hit, then just be done with working for $$.
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Does your wife know anything about your interest in financial independence and early retirement? It really sounds like this is the first she is hearing of it, so I don't think it's all that surprising that she is reacting this way. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and she does know about your plans for FIRE but, if not, I don't think you can expect that this will be settled with one conversation. This will be a work in progress and you're probably going to need to be patient with her as she becomes more comfortable with the idea of you downshifting or retiring.
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I think my wife and my FI numbers are different. If we use $50k at a 4% SWR my FI number is $1.25M so I'm already there.
I think you and your wife need to have a talk about this and agree on a #. Once you have that, you can run the #'s and see if you can still get to it with the new job or if you should stay in the old job.
The other question is this - if you were to hit your full FI # that both of you agree means you never have to work again. Do you keep working at that point? Or?? What happens after FI? Maybe the 2 of you have different ideas and different goals about what life will be in the FI space. That might be even more important to hash out with your wife.
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You think child care costs END soon?
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$30k is for daycare only, all other costs for the kids are in the $50k. I'm assuming that they become negligible when they go to school, maybe there is after school care and sports for a few hundred a month, not $30k per year.
Summer camp? (If she's a teacher disregard). Easy $4000-5000 for my 2 kids for the summer. Would be worse but we try to have at least half of them be full day, cheap camps, as opposed to the "educational" and "enriching" ones, that are easily $350-450 a week for 5 hours a day.
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It should also be mentioned that basically your wife is working for free.
I am not knocking the desire to want to go back, and I realize lots of people feel like they lose ground if they take time off with their kids. Full disclosure I am a STHP
But based on your tax rate adding in traveling to and from work, work clothes and every thing else your wife's entire salary goes to childcare. I just think it needs to be a part of the conversations with your partner.
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Family issues aside, how are you going to explain that you want to give up a high paying job to work an entry level one? As a hiring manager, I would question if it is a temporary whim and you'll leave as soon as the "right" high paying job comes along.
Based on your comment that your wife missed working, is she perhaps worried that you'll find the new job underwhelming and end up unhappy? And stuck with a much lower paycheck.
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i think the root of this problem is not being on the same page about how the money is going to work. Basically i need to have this same conversation with my wife that you need to have... again... b/c she makes similar comments to what yours is making and i'd rather not wait 7 years til i'm your age to discuss this stuff with her.
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You think child care costs END soon?
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$30k is for daycare only, all other costs for the kids are in the $50k. I'm assuming that they become negligible when they go to school, maybe there is after school care and sports for a few hundred a month, not $30k per year.
My childcare costs are going down by a few thousand as my daughter moves into kindergarten. Summer care, before school, after school, breaks. That $30,000 is not dropping by much. I think the OP needs to do some more research.
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It could be the cultural programming. Her parents are uber-conservatives.
Fiscal conservatives or social conservatives? Maybe that's why she is uncomfortable with the idea of being the wife and higher income earner, not just the financial aspect. Worth having a chat about the root of her reservations on both her reluctance to be the higher wage earner AND her reluctance regarding the mustachian lifestyle.
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Wife's $66K + your $50K = $116K. Your expenses with child care are $80K. So as long as taxes are not more than $36K you are good on your lower salary without touching the portfolio. If you leave it alone for 10 more years you'll have a stash worth something like $2.6M inflation adjusted which will support a yearly spend of $104K at 4%WR.
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It could be the cultural programming. Her parents are uber-conservatives.
Fiscal conservatives or social conservatives? Maybe that's why she is uncomfortable with the idea of being the wife and higher income earner, not just the financial aspect. Worth having a chat about the root of her reservations on both her reluctance to be the higher wage earner AND her reluctance regarding the mustachian lifestyle.
This. I feel no burden being the higher income earner. Unless your wife is worried she won't love her job and want to quit again, her argument makes no sense. Before reading the replies I was going to say "unless she is from a conservative background where it is somehow shameful to make more than your husband." And there we have it.
I think in response you point out that you have provided for her by making the money that you saved to provide income via the investments. If they are religious, maybe you can frame it as you are "retiring" to do service work now but you are going to accept a salary for it so you can do it sooner.
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I feel ya on this one. I actually turned down a job paying 95k and took one that should pay about 50-60k depending on commission because I liked the product and results better. My GF, now fiance, initially had the same reaction as you towards the drastic pay cut. But if it makes you happier, that's a result you can't measure. It's just a matter of getting her onboard with that. In this case, my lady is an avid MMM who introduced me so it wasn't the hardest sell but it was still there.
In my case, I'm still hoping to find something that has pay and satisfaction but this is a good start. But the boss asked me why I'd take an entry level job for this pay when I could do so much more just as nobody123 said. And it all comes down to what drives you, satisfies you, and gives you a sense of purpose in that case.
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Wait, you have $80k expenses even with a paid of mortgage? What the hell are you spending all that on? Take away $30k for the kids, that's still $50k and no rent or mortgage payment....
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Wait, you have $80k expenses even with a paid of mortgage? What the hell are you spending all that on? Take away $30k for the kids, that's still $50k and no rent or mortgage payment....
DC is a HCOL. i'm sure the prop taxes play a roll in part of that. we plan to spend 40k-50k with no rent or mortgage payment in a LCOL but taxes and insurance on our house and cars make up 11k of that.
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If you have a security clearance you might regret letting it go later if you decide to get back into work that requires one.
I know several people that wish they had kept theirs active as it opens many opportunities and companies would rather hire someone that already has one VS paying to get someone through the process and waiting.
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You are FI. Just quit and be done, both of you. If you really want to work you both could do some part time consulting from home, or work a couple days per week to get out of the house, and take turns with the childcare. If she still wants to keep her job you could be a SAHD. Don't pay $30k for daycare to make $50k, that is ridiculous. Just OMY at your old job if you feel the need to keep working and paying for daycare.
Have you considered posting a case study to try to get that $50k of expenses down?
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It should also be mentioned that basically your wife is working for free.
I am not knocking the desire to want to go back, and I realize lots of people feel like they lose ground if they take time off with their kids. Full disclosure I am a STHP
But based on your tax rate adding in traveling to and from work, work clothes and every thing else your wife's entire salary goes to childcare. I just think it needs to be a part of the conversations with your partner.
I hired my wife as a SAHM after running the numbers on her employment and the cost of childcare. You also have to factor in the cost of working. The cost of commuting, clothes, even lunch out every once in awhile. Your $50k/yr expenses would go way down if you both quit and lived off investments. She is chasing her tail at this point or maybe treading water. I am not sure what the best analogy is for this.
Do the real math and the numbers are often surprising. It took my wife a little while to get used to the idea of not working and at this point I am not sure I can get her to go back.
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Clicked on the thread to say you should always listen to your wife.
Me too.
Same, but I changed my mind.
I think the tax issue here deserves a closer look. With a $550k house and nearly $200k in income (possibly more depending on how tax efficient the investments are), you're probably paying a TON in taxes.
If I were you, I'd start with a spreadsheet. Here's your current gross earnings (including dividends), and then all the taxes you pay (FICA, federal, state, local?, property), and then your non-tax spending. Then, figure out what your post-switch gross earnings would be and recalculate all your taxes on that. (Including property taxes. I just got a property tax refund of 40% based on my income.)
You'll probably be able to show her that you're taking a $80,000 pay cut BUT you'll also pay $X0,000 less in taxes, and then you'll make up the difference in other income.
But, honestly, the numbers probably won't be what will convince her. That's just to reassure her that the family isn't going to starve. I think the real argument is that this change is Important To You As A Person. You wouldn't be considering this if it weren't. You NEED to do this because if you don't, you'll always regret it. You need to do it because of the greater social good. You need to do it because you won't be able to live with X, Y and Z at your current job for much longer, you're getting burnt out.
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It could be the cultural programming. Her parents are uber-conservatives.
Fiscal conservatives or social conservatives? Maybe that's why she is uncomfortable with the idea of being the wife and higher income earner, not just the financial aspect. Worth having a chat about the root of her reservations on both her reluctance to be the higher wage earner AND her reluctance regarding the mustachian lifestyle.
This. I feel no burden being the higher income earner. Unless your wife is worried she won't love her job and want to quit again, her argument makes no sense. Before reading the replies I was going to say "unless she is from a conservative background where it is somehow shameful to make more than your husband." And there we have it.
I think in response you point out that you have provided for her by making the money that you saved to provide income via the investments. If they are religious, maybe you can frame it as you are "retiring" to do service work now but you are going to accept a salary for it so you can do it sooner.
Yep, all of this.
Your wife's response makes no sense mathematically. Therefore, there is some other reason driving it -- maybe it's cultural per the above; or maybe she felt stressed as SAHM on your previous salary and likes the higher double income now and doesn't want to go back to the same total you had before; maybe she doesn't care about RE and wants to live it up now; maybe she wants to save a ton and is worried about what your 50% paycut would do to those plans; etc. etc. etc.
You need to figure out what is driving your wife's opposition before you can address it. You need a joint plan that you can both agree on, that meets both of your needs somewhere in the middle -- but you can't do that until you know what her needs are that are driving this knee-jerk no.
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Should you listen to your wife? Absolutely. But actually listen to her and her concerns, not with the goal of arguing her out of them (not saying you are, just that it's a common human failing). A neutral third party (e.g. therapist) would help too. Money issues are often emotional rather than logical, and logical arguments won't address emotional concerns.
I think there are ways to ease her concerns with your job change, but you need to find out what she's really worried about under the surface.
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What about a compromise? Work the higher salary til the kids are in kindergarten? Then she will feel more comfortable?
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Off topic and none of my business, but you are worth 1.8 million making about $200k a year. Based on the assumptions earlier that you have young children, how old are you/your wife? Based on the fact you have young children, I would have guessed no older than 35-40, but that only gives you something like 15 years to work (tops!). Assuming you have been making 200k the whole time (probably lower than that up until now), you would have needed to save about 65k a year for 15 years at 7% interest. So, this is probably possible at 200k a year for 15 years with 50k in expenses, but i guess i'm sorta doubting you've been making $200k a year for the past 15 years. Did you start out wealthy/inherit? Make incredible investment choices?
Like I said, none of my business, but my household income looks somewhat similar to yours(160k annual), i'm worth $130kish right now (26 years old), and we're trending towards about 60k saved a year (including the additional mortgage principle), so in 15 years I'll be 41 (Maybe how old you are?), but once I have kids this is all going to go down the drain and my wife will quit working, and it will be hard to save for FIRE.
I guess what I'm saying is this: I'm impressed you've amassed 1.8 million and managed to have small children. Did you wait a long time to have kids or did you start with money/inherit? I think i'm looking for a FIRE pick-me-up!
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Off topic and none of my business, but you are worth 1.8 million making about $200k a year. Based on the assumptions earlier that you have young children, how old are you/your wife? Based on the fact you have young children, I would have guessed no older than 35-40, but that only gives you something like 15 years to work (tops!). Assuming you have been making 200k the whole time (probably lower than that up until now), you would have needed to save about 65k a year for 15 years at 7% interest. So, this is probably possible at 200k a year for 15 years with 50k in expenses, but i guess i'm sorta doubting you've been making $200k a year for the past 15 years. Did you start out wealthy/inherit? Make incredible investment choices?
Like I said, none of my business, but my household income looks somewhat similar to yours(160k annual), i'm worth $130kish right now (26 years old), and we're trending towards about 60k saved a year (including the additional mortgage principle), so in 15 years I'll be 41 (Maybe how old you are?), but once I have kids this is all going to go down the drain and my wife will quit working, and it will be hard to save for FIRE.
I guess what I'm saying is this: I'm impressed you've amassed 1.8 million and managed to have small children. Did you wait a long time to have kids or did you start with money/inherit? I think i'm looking for a FIRE pick-me-up!
we make 150k a year dont have kids yet but will have easily amassed 1.8-2MM in today dollars by our FIRE date of 37. pulling in 160k annually you sohuld be able to save 100k a year easily.
remember it doesnt cost 100k to save 100k if you'r ein that tax bracket assuming 5% state tax.
you've got 25.2k cost to save 36k in 401ks.
you probably have company matches you're not counting in your 160k salary. to the tune of another 10k or so in free money at least
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I want to switch from my current job as a DoD consultant to a job at a nonprofit with a good cause. I found a job where there is good skill overlap and is in the perfect nonprofit based on personal reasons, and is 3 miles from our house where my current job is 15 miles away in DC traffic, but it's entry level. I currently make $130k and the new job would be at $50k. My wife makes $66k with good benefits and we have $1.3M in investments and a paid for $550k house. We have 2 kids, 4 and 2. We have $50k in annual expenses with $30k in daycare for 2 kids that are going to school in a couple years, so our expenses are $80k per year now and $50k per year soon. I'm comfortable with the paycut because we could just stop reinvesting dividends on the $1.3M and we would still have enough money to pay for the $80k in expenses, college funds, retirement contributions, etc. She got really emotional about this and demanded I find a job over $70k. I'm having trouble convincing her that we will be fine financially and that in a few years I'd probably get some raises and move up the ladder in the new industry. She doesn't want to reduce our income as she says she will feel stressed whenever she goes shopping and that she doesn't want the burden of being the highest income earner. I feel like she is disregarding the wealth we have and it's ability to throw off dividends.
Have you discussed with her the non-financial benefits of switching jobs? Like reduced stress, more time with family due to fewer hours at work, shorter commute, etc.
A few questions for you also:
How is that 1.3m structured? (401k/IRA/Taxable) Figure up what your annual dividends have been for the taxable accounts.
How long are you two planning on working and how much are you contributing to your retirement accounts? Its possible you could drop your contributions to only max out any company match and let those accounts grow and have more than enough for when you do decide to retire. Not the most optimal regarding taxes but could help alleviate her income concerns.
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I agree- this sounds like an emotional decision on your wife's part. One of the reasons she was eager to go back to work might be lifestyle inflation. Things look different when you've been sitting at home for a few years with kids! Her priorities for the future sound different from yours - you sound ready for FI and she doesn't.
This is the kind of stuff people get divorced over. Listen carefully, sleep on it, and don't expect to change her mind overnight.
What's driving you to leave your current job? Is there some kind of side hustle you could set up to help you have the freedom you want without scaring the wife? Can you contract back to your current employer if needed?
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<snip>
I talked to my brother about it and he had the same concerns. He thinks I'm overqualified for the nonprofit position and will be bored. He said he thinks that the people in these positions are bored middle aged women who want to get out of the house. I thought that was a bit dramatic.
Thanks everyone for the comments. The interview is tomorrow, wish me luck.
Or you are used to having a certain amount of influence / sway and leading people. Now you are going to be expected to be lead by someone else and do the "because I said so" work, working alongside the bored housewives and entitled millenials. If you want the challenge of climbing the mountain again, great, but it's not something I would advocate.
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You think child care costs END soon?
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$30k is for daycare only, all other costs for the kids are in the $50k. I'm assuming that they become negligible when they go to school, maybe there is after school care and sports for a few hundred a month, not $30k per year.
My childcare costs are going down by a few thousand as my daughter moves into kindergarten. Summer care, before school, after school, breaks. That $30,000 is not dropping by much. I think the OP needs to do some more research.
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This makes no sense to me. I have 2 kids getting daycare for 10 hours per day right now. There has to be a massive reduction when they go to school. Particularly if I take a low-stress job close by so my wife and I can do the before / after care. I hear you about summertime, but I'd still expect a 70% cut in daycare costs.
just quit your job and then you dont need any care you already have enough money. work for the non profit on the side for fun in free time while kids are in school.
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So she demands that you make $70k per year when she only makes $66k? She's the one who needs to step up her game ;).
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You think child care costs END soon?
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$30k is for daycare only, all other costs for the kids are in the $50k. I'm assuming that they become negligible when they go to school, maybe there is after school care and sports for a few hundred a month, not $30k per year.
My childcare costs are going down by a few thousand as my daughter moves into kindergarten. Summer care, before school, after school, breaks. That $30,000 is not dropping by much. I think the OP needs to do some more research.
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This makes no sense to me. I have 2 kids getting daycare for 10 hours per day right now. There has to be a massive reduction when they go to school. Particularly if I take a low-stress job close by so my wife and I can do the before / after care. I hear you about summertime, but I'd still expect a 70% cut in daycare costs.
My one kid in preschool costs: $15,240/ year (open 10 hrs a day, though we don't use all of it)
Future costs:
- after school care: $450/month x 9.5 months: $4275
- Summer camp for 9 weeks (assuming we will be taking off one week, and there are 10 weeks in our summer): $2250
- Total cost: $6525
- Total saved: $8715
However I'm well aware that there are after school enrichment programs and such, meaning our actual savings will be closer to $8300 a year.
Actual savings, approximately 55%, not 70%.
Though after school care here gets cheaper after first grade. The $450/month drops to $5 a day.
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Should you listen to your wife? Absolutely!
Can you come to some kind of understanding over time about this change you are proposing...sure. But tread gently with her feelings my friend. Get to the bottom of the fear and insecurity and you will both be much happier about the outcome. Good luck!
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"You can't quit! Being the primary breadwinner is too much pressure!"
"Gee honey, tell me about it."
Couldn't resist.
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Agree with the poster that mentioned that her job at 66k and our tax rate doesn't bring in much after daycare.
$50k after taxes, work related costs and $30k in child care means you would essentially be working for free. It makes less sense to do this that if she stayed at home. I would continue the current job until the kids are out of day care while working of the positioning with your wife to the next non-profit opportunity. That or find a part-time WFH non-profit job that would allow you to cut out the $30k.
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I only read the title of this post and the answer is no
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I don't know how time sensitive this job offer is, but I would sit down with the wife and have some very serious conversations. Knowing how she approaches problems will help you figure out the best approach, but starting with asking her what, specifically, about the change trouble her would be a good place to start. If it's simply that this will reduce your savings rate significantly, you can show her the rough numbers, with the commute and child care factored in. And consider whether there is any way to sweeten the pot a bit for her. If she cooks 5 nights a week, for example, tell her that you'd be home early so after you pick up the kids, you would take over dinner duty. If it's really just the money, stuff like that might not help, but listen to what is important to her and think about what you know would improve her quality of life, and point out how this change would benefit those areas.
To me, when one partner in a relationship wants to change the status quo, it's on them to get buy-in for the change. Since, from the sounds of it, you guys don't have a specific FIRE number or age that you've settled on, you are going to be somewhat starting from scratch in getting her to accept this decision, because you can't point to an agreed-upon plan and point out that this still fits, or almost fits, in that plan.
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The original post sounds a lot like myself and my DH. Except our kids are teenagers and we don't pay $30k for childcare, but our mortgage is close to that cost, and we don't have nearly as much in savings, either.
DH has been back at work for only 1.5 years, before I told him my plans for FIRE. He makes $60k, and is a bit panicked at the thought of the reduced income. Likely for similar reasons, and including a worry that because he was a SAHD for 11 years, his fallback if he was downsized was to become a SAHD again... NOT to go get a job that pays even more. So this may be more her reluctance than the male / female roles thing... she is thinking that her job is only for while she likes it, not a requirement, more like an optional hobby, which is safe to fail at....
Anyway, What I did -- I got a part time job ($10k.yr) to have some money coming in first, and saved in cash, 2 years expenses (partly because of that job). Then I quit FT, but with a plan . We don't plan to draw any dividends, but then, again, we don't have as large of a fund.
DH was not really onboard with the idea, but I did not give him the choice. I have been working at his insistence for far too many years and my health was showing that. It was time. We are working through the follow up issues now, but so far, so good.
I did agree to go back to work if my plan doesn't work the way I think, or if we spend more than I think.
My advice would be to consider taking a leave of absence to do "charity " work (but you actually work at a non-profit), to "refresh your mind". That way your wife has a fall back safeguard.
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I only read the title of this post and the answer is no
Oh. You're single, then?
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It should also be mentioned that basically your wife is working for free.
I am not knocking the desire to want to go back, and I realize lots of people feel like they lose ground if they take time off with their kids. Full disclosure I am a STHP
But based on your tax rate adding in traveling to and from work, work clothes and every thing else your wife's entire salary goes to childcare. I just think it needs to be a part of the conversations with your partner.
This is a perspective that I think is unreasonable. Another word actually comes to mind.
Childcare is the cost to family of caring for children. It should not be assigned to one parent or the other (generally in our society the woman, whatever your gender might be). This kind of assumption has been tremendously damaging for many women.
I love my kids but would chew my left leg off before being a SAHM. If that's what someone wants to do, fine, but it shouldn't be used to trivialize someone's career. There are many benefits, both monetary and otherwise, to having a career.
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Childcare is the cost to family of caring for children. It should not be assigned to one parent or the other (generally in our society the woman, whatever your gender might be). This kind of assumption has been tremendously damaging for many women.
I don't think the statement was a gender assignment, I think it was an economics assignment. The same could be said of a man who isn't earning more than childcare costs. There may be plenty of reasons to pursue a low-paying career anyway, but one isn't economics. The bigger problem with the idea that someone "pays the family cost for childcare" by staying home is that some assume it's a lesser role or occupation to do so - both for men and for women.
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I only read the title of this post and the answer is no
Oh. You're single, then?
Happily married :D
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How about you both quit and leave D.C. before the kids start school?
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Of course you should listen to your wife.
Making poor decisions in response to her irrational fears is not part of listening.
And of course, she should listen to you too.
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Anecodotally, Moustaches, my husband took a 2/3 pay cut almost 8 years ago to go work at a place he felt a strong affinity for. It turned out to be a soft landing. I haven't worked full-time for a looong time, so for the first year or so, we worried a lot. We moved from MCOL to HCOL, but housing is provided as part of the job - a HUGE benefit. He is now maxing his retirement account, including catch-up contributions.
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Congratulations OP you are in a good position!
Good luck whatever you do.
There are more robust tools for financial analysis, but one I keep going back to (especially to use while having a discussion with DW about various scenarios) is this one:
http://www.marketwatch.com/retirement/tools/retirement-planning-calculator
Super easy to visualize the impact of various income/asset etc scenarios.
ps - if you can, get out of the swamp. Dc is awful.
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I know I'm late in answering, and I only skimmed previous responses, but from what I read, it really sounds as if both your wife and your brother have traditional mindsets and may just have a hard time adjusting to the idea that "the man" doesn't make the most money.
So even though it sounds as if you've worked through that, just keep it in mind and maybe go chop down a tree or something and skip the deodorant for a few days to prove how manly you still are. :)
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ps - if you can, get out of the swamp. Dc is awful.
You do realize that "the swamp" is Congress and those 535 members come from other places right? At least 3 of them even come from your state. How about changing your vote next time if you want to clean up "the swamp"? We don't like most of the elected representatives either.
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ps - if you can, get out of the swamp. Dc is awful.
You do realize that "the swamp" is Congress and those 535 members come from other places right? At least 3 of them even come from your state. How about changing your vote next time if you want to clean up "the swamp"? We don't like most of the elected representatives either.
My perspective, but DC is awful because of the weather (god awful humidity), congestion (too many people; public transportation not sufficient, other infrastructure not built to handle loads), Competition (both in career as well as kids schools - allegedly you need to start your kid in sports camps at age 4 or they'll have no friends), lifestyle inflation, housing costs, and most important to me, the severe lack of good Americanized Chinese Food. Representatives come and go; they're a negligible factor in the determination.
Ricksun
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ps - if you can, get out of the swamp. Dc is awful.
You do realize that "the swamp" is Congress and those 535 members come from other places right? At least 3 of them even come from your state. How about changing your vote next time if you want to clean up "the swamp"? We don't like most of the elected representatives either.
My perspective, but DC is awful because of the weather (god awful humidity), congestion (too many people; public transportation not sufficient, other infrastructure not built to handle loads), Competition (both in career as well as kids schools - allegedly you need to start your kid in sports camps at age 4 or they'll have no friends), lifestyle inflation, housing costs, and most important to me, the severe lack of good Americanized Chinese Food. Representatives come and go; they're a negligible factor in the determination.
Ricksun
Can't argue with most of this, but I did recently find a good Chinese takeout place. :)
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No
Disclaimer: I didn't read anything at all other than the title.
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I think all the spreadsheets in the world won't help you here. Your wife has an emotional reaction to the idea of you making less than her: irrational, unfair, but I've seen marriages break up over this, be very careful.
Also, if her family is socially conservative, are they the kind of modern conservatives who think the poor and the sick have all brought it on themselves? In which case, she might not honor the work of your nonprofit if it serves those populations.
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I think it would be helpful to talk with your wife about your goals and her goals and both of your expectations. Maybe she's assumed that you'd "move up" to that bigger house at twice the price and maybe dump the frumpy mini-van for a Maserati Quattroporte. I don't know.
Maybe the 2 of you can come up with a number for invested assets minus liabilities where indeed you can downgrade to a non-profit job. If you can do that, work for the War Department as long as needed to come up to that number. I'll also say that you're lucky if you can get a number. I tried to ask my wife to work with me on a number and I started low (sort of trying to trap her so she'd be ok with the $2M we have saved....she didn't know), but I continued to ratchet up past $100 Billion and she still didn't think we'd have enough to retire. (throw up hands).
You will want to look forward to college costs. With one in private college myself, at the cost of one new Lamborghini Huracan, it ain't cheap.
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And consider whether there is any way to sweeten the pot a bit for her. If she cooks 5 nights a week, for example, tell her that you'd be home early so after you pick up the kids, you would take over dinner duty. If it's really just the money, stuff like that might not help, but listen to what is important to her and think about what you know would improve her quality of life, and point out how this change would benefit those areas.
I agree with Villanelle. What's in it for your wife? What's in it for your kids? Show her. As the children get bigger, it's helpful to be there when they need help with homework or social problems. If your wife is doing a lot of "invisible work" like scheduling, interfacing with teachers, dealing with extended family, shopping for bargains, or replacing supplies like toilet rolls, etc. you could also offer to take some of this on so she can partake in some of that FI joy.
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It should also be mentioned that basically your wife is working for free.
I am not knocking the desire to want to go back, and I realize lots of people feel like they lose ground if they take time off with their kids. Full disclosure I am a STHP
But based on your tax rate adding in traveling to and from work, work clothes and every thing else your wife's entire salary goes to childcare. I just think it needs to be a part of the conversations with your partner.
This is a perspective that I think is unreasonable. Another word actually comes to mind.
Childcare is the cost to family of caring for children. It should not be assigned to one parent or the other (generally in our society the woman, whatever your gender might be). This kind of assumption has been tremendously damaging for many women.
I love my kids but would chew my left leg off before being a SAHM. If that's what someone wants to do, fine, but it shouldn't be used to trivialize someone's career. There are many benefits, both monetary and otherwise, to having a career.
I agree with Pigeon, I hate when people make comments like this on forums like these. In addition to often being sexist, this kind of simplistic calculation annoyingly compares salary to childcare at a fixed point in time and advises people to make long-term decisions based on what is happening RIGHT now, forgetting that over time childcare costs tend to decrease while salary increases (but only if you stuck at the job to gain some work experience).
I'm almost 5 years into my career - let's say that I also had a baby at the time I graduated with daycare costs of $30k/year.
Y1 - salary $43k (state clerkship), daycare costs $30k - internet says YOU'RE WORKING FOR FREE after taxes and advises me to quit.
Y2 - salary 100k (regional law firm), daycare costs $30k - now over two years I've made $143k and paid $60k in childcare - looks a little more worth it
Y3 - salary 90k (federal clerkship), daycare costs $30k - I've made $233k and paid $90 in child care - the ratio looks even better
Y4 - salary 210k (biglaw firm job I would not have gotten without work experience at lower paid clerkships, particularly in my critical first years as an attorney), daycare costs $30k - I've made $443k and paid $120k in childcare
Y5 - salary 235k, daycare costs $15k (my kid goes to kindergarten and it gets conservatively cut by 50%), I've made $678k and paid $135k in childcare
Y6 - salary 260k, daycare costs $15k, I've made $938k and paid $150k in childcare.
I think it's obvious at this point that money-wise, it would have been stupid for me to quit my first job because I took home little to nothing after childcare (even setting aside the fact that I'm not "deducting" this cost from my husband's salary, just mine).
Now of course not everyone has that sort of upward salary trajectory in their careers, but the point is that it's silly to make a decision in one particular year instead of focusing on the total of several years when deciding whether childcare is "worth it." For a lot of people, if they take 5 years off of work from a job that will never exceed $50k/year, it makes it really hard to get into that job again after kids are in school, meaning they then lose a career's worth of future earnings. Opportunity costs need to be calculated with a long view.
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I agree with Pigeon, I hate when people make comments like this on forums like these. In addition to often being sexist, this kind of simplistic calculation annoyingly compares salary to childcare at a fixed point in time and advises people to make long-term decisions based on what is happening RIGHT now, forgetting that over time childcare costs tend to decrease while salary increases (but only if you stuck at the job to gain some work experience).
I'm almost 5 years into my career - let's say that I also had a baby at the time I graduated with daycare costs of $30k/year.
Y1 - salary $43k (state clerkship), daycare costs $30k - internet says YOU'RE WORKING FOR FREE after taxes and advises me to quit.
Y2 - salary 100k (regional law firm), daycare costs $30k - now over two years I've made $143k and paid $60k in childcare - looks a little more worth it
Y3 - salary 90k (federal clerkship), daycare costs $30k - I've made $233k and paid $90 in child care - the ratio looks even better
Y4 - salary 210k (biglaw firm job I would not have gotten without work experience at lower paid clerkships, particularly in my critical first years as an attorney), daycare costs $30k - I've made $443k and paid $120k in childcare
Y5 - salary 235k, daycare costs $15k (my kid goes to kindergarten and it gets conservatively cut by 50%), I've made $678k and paid $135k in childcare
Y6 - salary 260k, daycare costs $15k, I've made $938k and paid $150k in childcare.
This is not even remotely typical for the average clerk. It would be far more advantageous to learn a new career skill as a SAH parent than to hang on as a clerk for "upward trajectory" in almost any typical 30k job. The comment doesn't have to be sexist.
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It should also be mentioned that basically your wife is working for free.
I am not knocking the desire to want to go back, and I realize lots of people feel like they lose ground if they take time off with their kids. Full disclosure I am a STHP
But based on your tax rate adding in traveling to and from work, work clothes and every thing else your wife's entire salary goes to childcare. I just think it needs to be a part of the conversations with your partner.
This is a perspective that I think is unreasonable. Another word actually comes to mind.
Childcare is the cost to family of caring for children. It should not be assigned to one parent or the other (generally in our society the woman, whatever your gender might be). This kind of assumption has been tremendously damaging for many women.
I love my kids but would chew my left leg off before being a SAHM. If that's what someone wants to do, fine, but it shouldn't be used to trivialize someone's career. There are many benefits, both monetary and otherwise, to having a career.
I agree with Pigeon, I hate when people make comments like this on forums like these. In addition to often being sexist, this kind of simplistic calculation annoyingly compares salary to childcare at a fixed point in time and advises people to make long-term decisions based on what is happening RIGHT now, forgetting that over time childcare costs tend to decrease while salary increases (but only if you stuck at the job to gain some work experience).
I'm almost 5 years into my career - let's say that I also had a baby at the time I graduated with daycare costs of $30k/year.
Y1 - salary $43k (state clerkship), daycare costs $30k - internet says YOU'RE WORKING FOR FREE after taxes and advises me to quit.
Y2 - salary 100k (regional law firm), daycare costs $30k - now over two years I've made $143k and paid $60k in childcare - looks a little more worth it
Y3 - salary 90k (federal clerkship), daycare costs $30k - I've made $233k and paid $90 in child care - the ratio looks even better
Y4 - salary 210k (biglaw firm job I would not have gotten without work experience at lower paid clerkships, particularly in my critical first years as an attorney), daycare costs $30k - I've made $443k and paid $120k in childcare
Y5 - salary 235k, daycare costs $15k (my kid goes to kindergarten and it gets conservatively cut by 50%), I've made $678k and paid $135k in childcare
Y6 - salary 260k, daycare costs $15k, I've made $938k and paid $150k in childcare.
I think it's obvious at this point that money-wise, it would have been stupid for me to quit my first job because I took home little to nothing after childcare (even setting aside the fact that I'm not "deducting" this cost from my husband's salary, just mine).
Now of course not everyone has that sort of upward salary trajectory in their careers, but the point is that it's silly to make a decision in one particular year instead of focusing on the total of several years when deciding whether childcare is "worth it." For a lot of people, if they take 5 years off of work from a job that will never exceed $50k/year, it makes it really hard to get into that job again after kids are in school, meaning they then lose a career's worth of future earnings. Opportunity costs need to be calculated with a long view.
bridget - I am curious, do you have kids (even if not per your example)? I ask because the salary tragetory, starting when you have a newborn, just doesn't seem real to me, unless you have a spouse that is the one on call for all the childcare and child support activities... Yes, you can get promotions with kids, but not the rate that you indicate, in my professional experience, as you have to be able to work lots of weird extra hours at strange times, or travel, or what have you. e.g., 100% committed to work first, then family.
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Clicked on the thread to say you should always listen to your wife.
Beta male detected.
[MOD NOTE: Manners, please. We don't do personal insults, especially in otherwise empty posts.]
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Think there's a misunderstanding here about bridget's reference to the "clerk" job -- in the legal world, a "clerkship" means you are working for a judge, and it tends to be highly desirable (federal moreso than state). So she is absolutely right that doing those low-pay clerkships is almost like a loss leader to getting those higher-pay biglaw jobs. And even if you assume she goes part-time with the kiddo it still makes financial sense to keep working (this has certainly been my experience).
I also agree with the frustration over the focus on this-one-point-in-time math, because it ignores both the possible raises and the SS benefits that you maintain by staying in the workforce. Obviously, the latter is less important to many Mustachians, but you really need to look at the long-term picture when deciding whether a job remains worth it.
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Only in America can a wife feel worried about the family with two children only making 116K, with a million invested, no mortgage, a 500K house, and expenses ~75% of gross income.
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Think there's a misunderstanding here about bridget's reference to the "clerk" job -- in the legal world, a "clerkship" means you are working for a judge, and it tends to be highly desirable (federal moreso than state). So she is absolutely right that doing those low-pay clerkships is almost like a loss leader to getting those higher-pay biglaw jobs. And even if you assume she goes part-time with the kiddo it still makes financial sense to keep working (this has certainly been my experience).
I also agree with the frustration over the focus on this-one-point-in-time math, because it ignores both the possible raises and the SS benefits that you maintain by staying in the workforce. Obviously, the latter is less important to many Mustachians, but you really need to look at the long-term picture when deciding whether a job remains worth it.
This and big law salaries are lockstep meaning you get them as you move up each class year. They are published online.
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I also agree with the frustration over the focus on this-one-point-in-time math, because it ignores both the possible raises and the SS benefits that you maintain by staying in the workforce. Obviously, the latter is less important to many Mustachians, but you really need to look at the long-term picture when deciding whether a job remains worth it.
This is very true. Massive opportunity costs in terms of career.