Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 02:07:07 PM
I am in a sort of middle-management office job. Today in a meeting with my boss (it was just me and him) he bemoaned how difficult it is to sack people - and then said, in a sort of joking-but-not-joking-way, 'you should know that you have a lot of rights as an employee'. I took the implication that he would love to sack me if he could, but he can't legally do it. No idea why he said this, except to make me feel a bit insecure in my role, maybe. Or to push me to leave.
Much, much more terrible stuff going on which I won't go in to here.
Anyway, upshot of this is that I'm coming home from work, having a good old cry for an hour, then falling asleep, then waking up in the middle of the night with The Dreads, then crying a bit more, then going to work the next day. Wash, rinse and repeat.
I own my own house but have a mortgage to pay. The lowest monthly expenditure I can get down to is £850. Happy to post more details if people want this.
I have £6000 in savings. In current toxic job I earn £1500 a month.
I really want to hand in my notice, like, yesterday. Life seems far too short to put up with being treated like crap.
However. In the last couple of weeks I've applied for 3 other similar-paying jobs, I haven't got an interview for anything.
What would you do, considering the amount of FU money isn't enough to keep me going longer than a couple of months?
Be brave and stick it out until I get a new job? Avoid financial insecurity?
Or escape the intense stress, take a risk, hopefully get a new job (any job) before the savings take too much of a hit?
Any thoughts appreciated. I feel like the daily stress has got me into a frame of mind which is blinkered and pessimistic, and I can't sort of untangle myself from the thoughts of doom at the moment.
Post by: mwulff on September 02, 2016, 02:13:23 PM
If he wanted to sack you he would have. It might be difficult but not impossible.
I would suggest taking a huge "IDGAF"-pill (the famous "I don't give a f...") and letting it go.
Incidentally the IDGAF attitude also helps with the "much more terrible stuff". It's amazing.
However your emotional reaction suggests that you may be feeling stressed or insecure. I would advise you to see a doctor as soon as convenient and tell him all about your emotional reaction. He/She can then judge if you need further professional help.
From your reaction you sound as if you may suffer from some chronic stress symptoms, seek help. Please.
And the best of luck as well :)
PS. Consider selling the house maybe? Just to not be stressed about that anymore?
Post by: HPstache on September 02, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Post by: oldtoyota on September 02, 2016, 02:27:03 PM
As a previous poster said, maybe your boss was kidding. Maybe the stress is getting to him, too?
Post by: pbkmaine on September 02, 2016, 02:39:42 PM
Post by: Bicycle_B on September 02, 2016, 03:02:01 PM
When you find a better job, you can take the new job.
Good luck. In any case, I agree that if you can live on 850 and you take home 1500, live on 850 for now and build your savings.
Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 03:11:42 PM
Sorry for the lack of info, it's hard to get into it too much without just feelings-dumping about the job, and it's mostly work politics which I think most people wouldn't care to hear about. There are other members of staff off sick with stress just now also.
I used to have a great relationship with my boss (I thought) but recently there have been some odd things happening which lead me to conclude he really wants me out of there. I was doing a great job (or so I was told) until the last two months and then I was told that I was too negative, not working hard enough, not carrying out my job role correctly etc. (I've been there for 4 years).
About 8 years ago I was in a job which was rife with bullying and I vowed never to get myself stuck in that kind of situation again. I've had good jobs in good work environments since then... until this one went really, really weird and terrible, really quickly.
Although I feel you guys are the voice of reason, because indeed, there is a lot of risk in leaving the job without much of a safety net. And it is a very good point that if he wanted to sack me, I guess he would have by now. Maybe he was just venting about other work stuff. Maybe my daily terror-feelings are making me oversensitive to things.
Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 03:14:08 PM
With little savings, it doesn't seem likely that unemployment will reduce your stress level all that much.
Good point.
Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 03:17:50 PM
I'm saying 'it's all gone downhill so quickly and I don't know why' but I guess my boss would probably be like 'it's gone downhill for reasons x, y, and z, what is Torran not getting about this'.
I think right now I'm just a bit blindsided by it all.
Ok, well. I'll keep applying for jobs. Living on £850 is not fun but it is possible (pasta + tinned tomatoes 4ever), so I'll try and keep saving and hopefully manage to escape without too much injury to a new job somewhere that isn't exploding.
Post by: pbkmaine on September 02, 2016, 03:21:09 PM
https://cookingonabootstrap.com
Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 03:28:29 PM
For very inexpensive recipes, check out Jack Monroe's website:
https://cookingonabootstrap.com
Ooh nice, thanks!
Post by: Torran on September 02, 2016, 03:29:21 PM
I would suggest taking a huge "IDGAF"-pill (the famous "I don't give a f...") and letting it go.
Incidentally the IDGAF attitude also helps with the "much more terrible stuff". It's amazing.
Amazing! :)
Post by: Bicycle_B on September 02, 2016, 03:32:21 PM
One person's thoughts, anyway.
Post by: former player on September 02, 2016, 05:16:20 PM
Try to disengage emotionally if you can. I know it's difficult (I could never do it) but people who never take work things personally tend to do better with office politics than the rest of us. And everywhere has office politics - if you haven't noticed them, it's because the politics in the office fitted you too well for you to notice them.
Your boss is right that, as you have been with your employer for more than 2 years it will be hard for them to sack you. Look up your employment contract and employee handbook for what they say, then check your statutory redundancy rights (chances are high that if they did want to get rid of you they would give you redundancy rather than sack you). I bet you can't be sacked until you've gone through several layers of formal warnings stated to be such, had a programme of remediation and failed it. And my bet is that you would have a couple of months of work even after being given notice of redundancy, and would be due several weeks more pay after that. However bad you are feeling, the reality is nowhere near it, and you have no immediate financial panic. Plus, I think you work in the third sector? Sackings there will be as rare as hen's teeth.
When applying for jobs, look for the next pay and responsibility level up. It's counterintuitive, but you might get a better response if you are seen to be looking to progress your career rather than escape a job you don't like. And 3 applications in 2 weeks is not many - I know applying is hard work and time consuming, but keep looking and keep applying. Also: apply for jobs you are not fully qualified/experienced for but could learn to do on the job. Concentrate on all the things you could do in the job not the one or two you still need to learn (it's very common for men to apply for better jobs than they are qualified for and women to apply for worse jobs than they are qualified for, so act like a man and apply "up").
Chin up!
Post by: meghan88 on September 02, 2016, 05:49:08 PM
Stop all spending that is not for mortgage and food. Live on that £850. And keep going to work and looking for work elsewhere as long as you can. Financially, it is much better to be laid off than to quit. Put headphones on to block out the craziness and just do the job. Frankly, sounds like your boss is one of those people who doesn't self-censor. I doubt it was directed to you. He might even be confiding in you.Definitely much better to be laid off than to quit. If the environment is truly toxic, DOCUMENT IT. Take meticulous notes about who said and did what, when, etc.
Turn it into a sport. Think of each horrible thing or abusive comment as a Bingo number, and keep collecting them. Here's a good post regarding "Performance Improvement Plans" that you might find helpful. Yes, it's for the U.S. but I'm sure some of the tips and principles would apply to your situation: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/never-sign-pip-jack-tarantino
The original post was from another blog. Glad I was able to find it because it was deleted from the author's blog.
The great thing about living in the UK is that it is much more difficult to get fired than in North America and the payouts are better.
Another thing: Realize that the toxic work environment is making you depressed and desperate, and this will affect your job search and interviewing frame of mind and persona. You need to try to turn OFF the desperation switch and turn ON the switch that will help you sell yourself to your next employer as the most awesome thing ever that just walked in their front door. You DESERVE that next job!!
Good luck Torran!! Please keep us posted as to progress.
Post by: Mrs. S on September 02, 2016, 10:23:08 PM
https://livingafi.com/2014/06/20/the-job-experience-tech-support-year-4-part-1/5/
Last year I faced something similar. My job reporting changed from another guy between me and the top boss to direct reporting to the top boss. Now the boss is OK and really isn't out to get anyone but for the life of him can not manage a team. I also realized that what I actually did and was capable of he had no clue. a few altercations later I just wanted to punch him in the face. Few weeks of anxiety, anger and stress later I realized IDGAF. It was a difficult thing to actually practice but was what saved me from actually hitting the boss physically or verbally.
Post by: Torran on September 03, 2016, 02:18:12 AM
I completely take on what you're saying about stress/frame of mind. I definitely have been sort of winding myself up and feeling imprisoned when actually I need to let go a bit and find my way back to a positive frame of mind. I.e maybe a lot of this stressful situation is actually self-imposed. It's a strange thing, a workplace, because when other colleagues are also really fraught and negative, it gets contagious - there have been tears in meetings, people threatening to walk out without even giving notice. Everyone seems to be having a bit of a meltdown and I've been really caught up in it too. Probably why my boss told me to stop being so negative - I'm guessing he sees me as one of the causes of all this.
To give a tiny bit more info on why I was so worried about being sacked that I thought I should jump instead of being pushed - the work politics are going a bit like this:
1. I told one of my (senior) bosses that I was applying for another job. I know, I know, that was a really stupid thing to do. At that point I was basically like 'this is the end, I don't care about the consequences, I can't bear this anymore, I'm leaving'. Stress making me go loopy. My direct boss (I'l call him DB) was on holiday which is why I ended up talking to one of the senior bosses.
2. Senior management have actually been surprisingly amazing. They wanted to chat to me about the reasons for leaving; wanted to find solutions, but only if I 'commit to staying'. Understandably they're not wiling to give time/effort to someone who is just going to fuck off anyway.
3. DB (who is between me and senior management) responded to this by stopping speaking to me entirely. He's been really busy, but noticieably stopped giving a crap about me or my dept after that. I asked him for a meeting, in which he made it clear that I should leave: 'life is too short if you're unhappy, just go', 'it's clear you're unhappy', 'your [specific work targets] are not being met', 'maybe this job is not the right fit for you', and he even went so far as to advise that I could ask my parents for money if money was the reason I was hesitating about quitting. (Side note: hilariously at odds with MMM forum feelings about cash/jobs/parents/entitlement).
4. Then I was called into a meeting with DB and senior management, in which DB said he would really love for me to stay. It kind of felt like he'd been asked to say that to me.
5. Then came the meeting between me and DB (to talk about *another* issue with another of member staff threatening to leave) and he came out with that chat about how hard it is to sack people and 'you should know you have a lot of rights as an employee'.
I can understand that my direct boss just wants me to leave. He's probably at the end of his tether with all of this. I also think senior management have been more than reasonable and uncommonly kind. But their attitude is at odds with my direct boss, and all this lovely-feelings chat about improving things and asking me to stay will, in reality, be left in the hands of my direct boss to implement, and he is NOT into that plan at all.
I'm also wondering if my direct boss pretty much wants to quit as well. Hmm.
Aside from all of that, though, I really am so grateful to you guys for the wise words. It's been very hard to untangle my feelings. Family and friends are all urging me to just quit. They're all very positive about the prospects if I do that, but I'm shit-scared of wasting my savings with several months of unemployment.
So, plan.
lhamo - yes, I think this is a very good idea. I've gone a lot of 'inferring' what he means without asking him outright explain his words clearly. So firstly aim for open + honest dialogue.
Everyone who said IDGAF - yes, yes and yes. Detaching would most likely improve my performance (ironically). Would help to let other colleague's rage just wash over me. Would help with all of life. Would most likely lead to less crying when I get home from work. Need to remind myself it's just a job.
Set aside the idea of quitting. I was trying to feel like at least I had an option - trying to get over the feeling of being imprisoned because I COULD just leave. But in truth, I am 1. Not financially in a position to quit, and 2. Not imprisoned. A lot of people are in MUCH worse scenarios than this, I guess it goes without saying. It is just a job. I don't need to feck up the rest of my life just to break free.
Take steps to take care of the stress; count blessings; practice relaxation; remember I have a whole existence and being outside of work. Feel glad I don't have a crazy mortgage, consumer debt, and children to look after.
Keep applying for other jobs. Meghan88 - extremely good advice, need to get myself into the right mental space to be able to get another job. Won't be going anywhere if I turn up to interviews looking frazzled, tearful and angry.
Which means my senior management will be unhappy that I'm staying-but-clearly-not-really-staying-for-long. I just don't want to bare-face lie to them and say 'yes I' am so committed to staying, lets impliment all these changes in my job/environment' and then fuck off a month or two later. They've been respectful and generous to me and I don't want to be a monster in return.
I guess I'll try and apply for more jobs, more quickly, and try and get something else pronto, so I don't prolong the weird situation in current job for too long.
I was kind of typing out my thoughts there, sorry for the essay/stream of consciousness. You are all fabulous. I will now read the articles in the links - thank-you.
Post by: Torran on September 03, 2016, 02:42:56 AM
1. The reason I told senior management that I applied for another job was basically to warn them that the dept was falling apart. We had 2 other people (from a very small team) leaving or about to leave, but at that point, the senior management had no idea whatsoever. The next week they got people handing in notice. That was when they started having meetings with me about how to improve things. They were pissed off that I hadn't told them sooner.
2. I also really landed my direct boss in the shit with all this, because although I am not part of those conversations, I'm thinking he might be getting a lot of questions like 'why is this dept falling apart?'. I think he is blaming me. There are about a year's worth of reasons why everyone is leaving which I won't go in to here, because, not very interesting or relevant.
Mrs.S and Meghan88 - The PIP and livingafi.com articles are absolutely fascinating - thanks very much for posting. Really good to read about how other people handle stress and protect themselves.
Post by: pbkmaine on September 03, 2016, 03:01:20 AM
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on September 03, 2016, 04:50:20 AM
(a) jobhunt while still working, and find a place with less politics
(b) suck it up and try to make it up with DB
How would you rate DB overall? Is this an inspirational boss you've previously loved working with? Are you learning loads? Do you think it's worth putting in the effort, even a bit of humble pie to stay?
Or would a fresh start be better for you? Even better if you could find a job a step up?
My hit-rate with applications is terrible as well, even with jobs where I think I'm a perfect fit....however with patience the perfect job does eventually come round.
Post by: Jamese20 on September 03, 2016, 09:10:54 AM
first off the quick answer is regardless of situation it is a big fat NO!!! dont EVER give the bad boss satisfaction of forcing you out, UNLESS you are FI and don't need the money. Which, obviously in your case this is not the case and you wouldn't even need to post this if it were.
I have had every bad experience there is to be had with bad bosses early in my career and now i have found a position that is perfect for me and a great boss with great colleagues.
I would go as far to say EVERYONE goes through this with their career so do not think you are alone.
It feels like a living nightmare and probably is one of the most stressful things deal with in life, but leaving on your own accord with a new opportunity is the best FU you can possibly achieve with a bad boss.
The reality is a lot of this could be in your own head and if a business really wants rid of you they just pay you to leave in a lot of instances because if you are doing nothing fundamentally wrong then they cannot just make something up to sack you, it is easier to just give you some money and a reference to go your separate ways.
the simple advice is to keep looking and keep the satisfaction of leaving in your head everyday and know that this job is now a temporary pain to deal with to achieve long term gain...
like others have said - learn not to care as much and go with the flow, if your boss really wants you out then it will be giving him grief everyday too dealing with you trust me.
Post by: Cpa Cat on September 03, 2016, 09:32:24 AM
So there's no problem with telling management you're committed and want changes while still applying for jobs. If you get a new job, you just tell them that the changes weren't enough, or that you didn't see the commitment to change from your immediate boss.
It could takes months for you to get a new position. In that time, if they really are committed to having you stay, maybe this job will turn out to be one you want to keep. If not, then you don't really need to feel guilty about leaving... those changes weren't good enough.
Post by: Bicycle_B on September 03, 2016, 11:47:36 AM
It's a strange thing, a workplace, because when other colleagues are also really fraught and negative, it gets contagious - there have been tears in meetings, people threatening to walk out without even giving notice. Everyone seems to be having a bit of a meltdown and I've been really caught up in it too. Probably why my boss told me to stop being so negative - I'm guessing he sees me as one of the causes of all this.
To give a tiny bit more info on why I was so worried about being sacked that I thought I should jump instead of being pushed - the work politics are going a bit like this:
1. I told one of my (senior) bosses that I was applying for another job. I know, I know, that was a really stupid thing to do. At that point I was basically like 'this is the end, I don't care about the consequences, I can't bear this anymore, I'm leaving'. Stress making me go loopy. My direct boss (I'l call him DB) was on holiday which is why I ended up talking to one of the senior bosses.
2. Senior management have actually been surprisingly amazing. They wanted to chat to me about the reasons for leaving; wanted to find solutions, but only if I 'commit to staying'. Understandably they're not wiling to give time/effort to someone who is just going to fuck off anyway.
3. DB (who is between me and senior management) responded to this by stopping speaking to me entirely. He's been really busy, but noticieably stopped giving a crap about me or my dept after that. I asked him for a meeting, in which he made it clear that I should leave: 'life is too short if you're unhappy, just go', 'it's clear you're unhappy', 'your [specific work targets] are not being met', 'maybe this job is not the right fit for you', and he even went so far as to advise that I could ask my parents for money if money was the reason I was hesitating about quitting. (Side note: hilariously at odds with MMM forum feelings about cash/jobs/parents/entitlement).
4. Then I was called into a meeting with DB and senior management, in which DB said he would really love for me to stay. It kind of felt like he'd been asked to say that to me.
5. Then came the meeting between me and DB (to talk about *another* issue with another of member staff threatening to leave) and he came out with that chat about how hard it is to sack people and 'you should know you have a lot of rights as an employee'.
I can understand that my direct boss just wants me to leave. He's probably at the end of his tether with all of this. I also think senior management have been more than reasonable and uncommonly kind. But their attitude is at odds with my direct boss, and all this lovely-feelings chat about improving things and asking me to stay will, in reality, be left in the hands of my direct boss to implement, and he is NOT into that plan at all.
I'm also wondering if my direct boss pretty much wants to quit as well. Hmm.
Torran, NOW we're getting somewhere! Your more detailed description clarifies things immensely IMHO. What follows is just one opinion from a person experienced in making workplace mistakes.
(Please do not take offense at this terminology. You are not the cause of this workplace's problems, just an innocent person in a situation where mere logic is insufficient for the task of survival. Stay calm. Your errors are natural ones for a person of logic who is dedicated to their job - they are correct from the viewpoint of being dedicated to the company, only incorrect from standpoint of relating to fallible fellow humans failing in their own jobs. In other words, your only error was in the technical area of "surviving other people's mistakes." This happens to everyone sometime unless they are a natural genius at office politics.)
1. I would not spend much time following DB's suggestions literally or addressing every concern that he/she articulates. I agree with lhamo, one of the wisest posters on these wisdom-filled boards, but be careful not to overtask yourself. My reasoning is that you have angered your boss the point where he/she is flailing wildly out of control. His/her words are expressions of panic or emotion at this point, not expressions of reason; as such they represent transient feelings, not permanent positions, and should be judiciously ignored in favor of keeping your mouth shut.
2. If you're going to pay attention to your boss, focus on their emotions but don't mollify them. Just respect them in the sense of giving them fair consideration while you do your job. Example: You see your boss one-on-one in the hall, she/he looks downcast, you say "Hi, boss. Rough day?" Perhaps you follow up with "Can't blame you. See you later." This conveys some acknowledgement of the boss's feelings without pretending to take responsibility for the problems.
3. Just to be clear - your boss is the main person in trouble here, not you. If you just keep your mouth shut from here on out, the person likely to be fired is DB. I've seen multiple cases of this. (That's why management is solicitous of you. Their job is to get DB to be effective. Your info to them was news relevant to their task. Their assumption UNLESS you start claiming to be at fault is that DB is the problem, not you. Going forward, stay quiet, do your job, keep good notes and thereby support their assumption.)
4. DB knows item 3. That's why DB is upset.
5. Fwiw, whether you should have gone over DB's head sooner, when you did or not at all depends on workplace culture. I have no idea what would have been perfect in your workplace, but it doesn't matter any more.
6. One option to consider is replacing DB after they sack him. If nothing else, while you're still working here, quietly prepare your own plans on topics such as:
a. How to improve the workplace atmosphere
b. How to keep things from collapsing if they other employees quit
c. How to hire a new team if you replace DB
7. Yes, you still look for other jobs.
8. Yes, you still strengthen your position by living on 900 or less.
9. Definitely tell upper management that you are committed to staying. Do not feel guilty about this. If they fired DB and hired a good boss, you should consider staying for real - they are committed improvement and you're part of the improvement. Even more so if you get promoted. If you end up leaving, that's only because conditions changed - you were committed when you said you were.
10. If you're unsure whether you left the feeling you are "committed", you can go back to them and say "I really appreciate that you took time with me the other day. I am committed to this workplace, and your concern for me has strengthened my commitment. It shows that the company is a good workplace no matter what the ups and downs of an individual team or project. I would like to grow with this company."
Do not screw things up by your own words and actions such as saying too much or claiming to be the cause of any of the team's problems, not even in order to just be polite. No! Don't do it!
The workplace is not always the place for full disclosure with complete honesty. The workplace, being an imperfect place, does not reward full honest disclosure except in special circumstances. Learn these unspoken rules or you will suffer these situations again and again.
The way I read your boss's behavior changes, management made it clear to him that part of his job is to keep staff on board. His initial instinct was that you betrayed him by exposing his weak management to his bosses, so he wanted to get rid of you. Management instructed him to do otherwise after investigating. You are safe for the time being. Unless you do something weird or incompetent, he can only fire you if he survives for a long time, they forget about it all, and he takes retribution at that later time. Good luck in any case.
Post by: Torran on September 03, 2016, 02:43:09 PM
Specially "his initial instinct was that you betrayed him by exposing his weak management to his bosses, so he wanted to get rid of you." Other people in my life (not connected to work) have also echoed this. It all felt so House of Cards that I was thinking 'that can't possible be the case, it's so over the top, DB wouldn't be that terrible and Machiavellian'. But actually, y'know, that could be exactly what's going on.
I think I will go back in on Monday (DB is off on holiday again) and speak to the senior management and let them know that I'm committed to staying on the basis of the conversation we had about proposed changes and ways to resolve current crisis.
I will offer no further chat to DB about his bizarre employee-rights comments. I can see that I did land him in hot water quite badly, and he is probably very, very keen to shift the blame on to me and/or get me to leave. Accepting that is a useful thing, at least I know what I'm dealing with. It sucks because way back in the day, I had a good relationship with DB and we were always on the same page with each other. We made a great team. But well there we go, he's obviously feeling attacked and not going to play nice.
I'll continue to look for other jobs BUT will leave once I get a better one. Not just hand in my notice and go work somewhere on minimum wage and feel sad about everything.
Thanks again everyone for sharing your advice - especially as there's so much (bitter and non-bitter!) experience of work politics to share. I haven't really discussed it with anyone at length and my family and friends have just said 'quit! Quit!' because they see me crying, while the people who know what's going on are so tightly wound up with their own intense work-rage that their response to my question, I'd guess, would be to spontaneously combust.
Honestly I can't express how helpful this has been.
Post by: Torran on September 03, 2016, 03:04:53 PM
dreams_and_discoveries - in answer, yes, myself and DB used to work so well together, so I guess I'm also feeling quite emotional and a bit betrayed about how badly things have gone recently. I didn't think he was my friend, but I did think he had more respect for me. We were a team of two, and he annoyed my every day, the way people do in an office environment, but I also respected him and found him easy to work with. We worked really hard. I remember those days going really quickly and being rewarding.
I got promoted, he got promoted, and now we barely see each other, BUT I still have to go to him to authorize most of my decisions, and raise any staff issues with him. This is where it has fallen down. He has been given tons of stuff to do and for a few months he ceased to manage any of us at all. We hardly saw him; he didn't answer emails; he cancelled meetings and then denied knowing anything about the meetings. Staff told me they felt completely unmanaged (by now there is a much bigger team, and I'm not the line-manager of everyone in the team, just some of them).
Once *other issues* kicked off and people were crying and wanting to leave, my mistake was not to be more forceful in taking these issues to DB and making him take it seriously. I wasn't sure how much I was supposed to be managing people, and how much of it was on DB. I'm sure I've made many other mistakes. However after a few months of all this crap, I just basically broke and had no energy to go on after a while. Which is where the story starts, with me going to senior management to tell them I was maybe gonna leave.
On the plus side this all so totally proves that financial independence is THE WAY.
Post by: Torran on September 05, 2016, 08:00:42 AM
I went to my MD this morning and said I was committed to staying and working on improving things. I also said that the fact they had taken the time to speak with me led me to feel more positive about the organisation and that I was still very engaged and keen to put changes they want to happen into practise.
MD was very positive in return, saying they were very glad that I was staying and that they're hoping to get the workplace back on track after last week's general meltdown.
DB is off on holiday so once he gets back I can try and build bridges with him.
New plan: keep searching and only if the ideal dream-job (or near enough) at a higher salary comes along, then apply, and put my all into the application.
Stay and try to actually make changes. I feel so much more positive now I feel like I could actually help to improve the organisation, rather than just being ignored or dismissed by DB.
Hopefully he'll come back with more optimism and feel like being a bit more chatty with me instead of ignoring me.
We shall see.
I went from 'I'm GONNA GODDAM QUIT' on the bus home on Friday, to a complete turn-around and 'I'M GONNA GODDAM SORT THESE PROBLEMS OUT' feeling on Monday.
Thank-you, everyone.
Post by: pbkmaine on September 05, 2016, 08:06:23 AM
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on September 05, 2016, 08:51:36 AM
I'm sure with that attitude you'll get things turned around in no time.
Post by: Torran on September 08, 2016, 09:53:49 AM
I was offered an interview for a job I really want.
Just after having a chat with MD about developing in my role, starting a new period of improving things in the office...
Guilt, so much guilt. Have not yet replied to the interview request.
Post by: pbkmaine on September 08, 2016, 10:03:12 AM
Schedule the interview.
Nothing is guaranteed, in business or in life. Your company could fire you tomorrow. Go to the interview and see what happens. No need to feel guilty about anything.
The lhamo is very wise. Interview!
Post by: frugaliknowit on September 08, 2016, 10:19:00 AM
You might ask your boss exactly what he meant by that, just to see what he says...? Personally, I wouldn't read much into it. If you're unhappy, keep looking and try not to quit.
Post by: rugorak on September 08, 2016, 10:33:56 AM
Erm... update on update...As other have said take the interview. Reply immediately to set it up. It never hurts to interview. You can learn more about them and they about you. They may not offer you the job. They may really want you but during the interview you find things you don't like. Find out so you don't ask yourself "what if".
I was offered an interview for a job I really want.
Just after having a chat with MD about developing in my role, starting a new period of improving things in the office...
Guilt, so much guilt. Have not yet replied to the interview request.
I've been in a similar situation as you. From personal experience sometimes as much as a place tries to make things better they end up not able or willing to make the changes needed. It is good that they are trying but no guarantee things won't fall back to where they were. At my old job they kept saying they were going to change and they heard what employees were saying but in the end they were not willing to make the changes they need. The root of the problem was/is the COO and nothing was/is going to be done about her. She hired lackeys who in turn did the same and we had 8 layers of ineffectual management who couldn't see how bad things were. In fact they had meetings where they were asked why the employees didn't realize how great they had it? And usually their solution was they needed more managers. That being said it wasn't a horrid job as my immediate team was fantastic. I looked and took interviews on and off for about 3 years before finding my current job.
In short keep looking and explore every opportunity. Take interviews. Even if you are lukewarm about a job it is good practice and they might surprise you. And in the meantime keep trying to make your present workplace as good as it can be. It will mean that even if/when you leave they should respect and appreciate you. Because every employee should be trying to make things better. And with any luck maybe you can make the place even a tad better for those left behind should you land a better position elsewhere.
Post by: Bicycle_B on September 08, 2016, 10:39:17 AM
Think of it this way. If the best thing to do is leave, you should find out. If the best thing to do is stay, you should find out.
If you find out your employer is better than the other offer, even your situation while staying is better because now you know.
Obviously the main issue is to stick with your plan of interviewing. Implementing your self-affirming plan is a self-affirming act. You are the leader of your own life, author of your own story. Be bold, move forward! We're rooting for you.
Post by: TexasRunner on September 08, 2016, 11:47:44 AM
Schedule the interview.
Nothing is guaranteed, in business or in life. Your company could fire you tomorrow. Go to the interview and see what happens. No need to feel guilty about anything.
+1 to this. Your work could sack you at any time if it was the most benefit for them. You can interview and keep your options open. I think it is unreasonable to force you to 'commit to stay' before improvements are made. Even if you leave, lack of improvement will destroy the department/company. The senior management needs to fix it either way. You leaving does not change that. Their request of your commitment at this point is unreasonable IMO.
Post by: Mother Fussbudget on September 08, 2016, 12:08:56 PM
'you should know that you have a lot of rights as an employee'I have to strongly disagree with this one. Do NOT re-open the conversation with DM on this topic all these days later - it could be interpreted as playing office politics, and stirring up controversy when a lot of other positive discussion has happened since that original conversation.
You might ask your boss exactly what he meant by that, just to see what he says...? Personally, I wouldn't read much into it. If you're unhappy, keep looking and try not to quit.
DO proceed with the interview. Having good workplace options is always a good thing.
I agree with everything lhamo said. DO NOT 'engage' in the politics discussions. Focus instead on doing your work, and meeting expected goals. Also, DO continue to pursue outside interviews. I've worked for 11+ companies, and 80% of those job changes saw an improvement in office conditions, salary, benefits, etc. Sometimes changing companies is the only way to get a real meaningful increase (when companies give 2% annual salary increases).
At your current job, DO NOT burn bridges. Take off your 'scared employee hat', and for a minute put on your "I'm the manager of me" hat. Assume you're either doing the job of your manager, or equivalent work as it relates to your-own-work. How would you do your job if YOU were the manager of you? How would you treat your peers, and how would you communicate up the management chain? You may be offered a management role once MD's issues with DM are sorted out. However... I would recommend NOT taking a management role - (see the 'Epic FU Money stories' (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories)thread for other people's stories about bad managers).
But do your work professionally with RESULTS in mind. Activities are fine, but it's results that count. At this point, keep your head down, focus on RESULTS, and be professional. And keep looking for a better position so you have good career options. All the best!
Post by: Torran on September 08, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
I will go for the interview. The job I want is actually the same salary, so not an upward-move, but it's in an area I really, really want to work in (politics, but non-partisan).
I really appreciate what you guys are saying - not to feel guilty; and that my current organisation can't really ask me to 'commit' before any changes have actually taken place. I will really try and put my all into the targets I've got, and if I leave, leave with goodwill, as much as is possible. I am a bit worried about the sting in the tail that will happen if I leave - undoubtedly they will go on the attack and accuse me of messing them around. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
First and foremost, the interview - to see if this new job is something I really want, and to practice being interviewed, and to see if it goes well or not, and what position that leaves me in. Then I can think about next steps.
we had 8 layers of ineffectual management who couldn't see how bad things were. In fact they had meetings where they were asked why the employees didn't realize how great they had it?
Ha are you me? Am I you? It's so sad, it isn't really funny. Sorry you had to go through all of this. This is exactly the situation in my current place. I have lost count of how many times I've been told I should realise how 'lucky' I am to be working for this organisation; how the 'real world' of the job market is going to be a harsh discovery if I ever left. Honestly, I wonder if a lot of the long-time managers are institutionalized because they all think that my workplace is some golden shining example of a work environment - but we have - wait for it - a 50% staff turnover.
50%. I have worked with some really talented, driven people, who left after a couple of months in sheer, baffled disappointment. Meanwhile some high-up managers have stayed for years and years, doing the same thing, never changing their ways, blaming the staff below them, and driving out the talented, driven newbies.
The senior management who have tried to persuade me to stay based on making changes are actually relatively new to the organisation as well, which is why I am holding out some hope that they might mean what they say (and if I leave, I hope the staff left behind benefit from that).
Post by: Torran on September 08, 2016, 02:03:57 PM
He was supposed to come back from holiday today but was away doing other work, which did not go down well with the team, who made comments about him 'avoiding' them.
I'm going to just see what kind of frame of mind he is in when he is finally back in, and tread quite carefully.
Post by: Torran on September 08, 2016, 02:13:01 PM
Kirsty is not my name (and neither is Torran, naturally!).
Hahahaha. If I could use the little crying-with-laughter emoji on this forum, I would do so right now.
I've just emailed them to check... y'know... that they meant to send that email to me? Perhaps there is no interview. Perhaps this new worry about an interview was most futile.
Post by: Mother Fussbudget on September 08, 2016, 08:59:36 PM
Network with them.
Do Lunch.
Connect via LiinkedIn.
Ask them if there are any 'gigs' in their new organizations that YOU might be a good fit for.
The main reason I try not to burn bridges in the workplace is because in the Pacific NW, the Tech/IT world tends to be a small universe, and people come around into your orbit again and again - both the good ones and bad.
Again... sending positive vibes your way. ;-)
Post by: Dicey on September 09, 2016, 01:40:06 AM
Frankly, when I was desperate to get out, I squirreled away every dime until I had a big ball o' money. Then I downshifed into a lesser paying job that gave me the time to focus on some other bucket-list items I wanted to accomplish.
Here comes harsh (sorry): If you squandered the chance to amass FU money, you have forfeited your right to quit with no job lined up now. Figure it out, tough it out, hoard every penny until you can afford the price of your own freedom, and then go.
And next time someone invites you to apply for a job, don't tell them you're not "her". If you had merely replied as requested, the burden would have been on them to figure it out. They might have been so embarrassed that they never would have mentioned it, but at least you would have had the opportunity to strut your stuff, so to speak.
Finally, it seems that your boss might be miserably unhappy. He may be envious of protections he perceives are available to you but not to him. Try to review his behavior with this in mind and see if it changes anything for you. Not positive, but it might help you see things in a different light.
Good luck to you!
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 02:17:22 AM
I have been in your shoes. Hated everything about my job, once the new boss mucked everything up. I had FU money, but not FI money. I see lots of good discussion and advice here. I also see you said you've felt this way before. So if I may ask, politely, of course, why have you not amassed any FU money?
Frankly, when I was desperate to get out, I squirreled away every dime until I had a big ball o' money. [...]
Here comes harsh (sorry): If you squandered the chance to amass FU money, you have forfeited your right to quit with no job lined up now. Figure it out, tough it out, hoard every penny until you can afford the price of your own freedom, and then go.
And next time someone invites you to apply for a job, don't tell them you're not "her". If you had merely replied as requested, the burden would have been on them to figure it out. They might have been so embarrassed that they never would have mentioned it, but at least you would have had the opportunity to strut your stuff, so to speak.
Finally, it seems that your boss might be miserably unhappy. He may be envious of protections he perceives are available to you but not to him. Try to review his behavior with this in mind and see if it changes anything for you. Not positive, but it might help you see things in a different light.
Good luck to you!
Yes, well, I didn't start saving money until I was 27 because I was completely unaware of financial responsibility/MMM stuff until then. My life got tipped upside down due to illness etc, and when I was putting the pieces back together again, I found the MMM website. So I saved a deposit and bought a flat, because having my own place is pretty important to me. That was 6 months ago and my current savings are what I've saved since then. Not a lot. It's gonna be a long game.
Absolutely agree that my boss is most definitely miserably unhappy. Yes. I need to be careful because I feel he is not going to be respectful or thoughtful but then again, given his state of mind, I can't expect anything else really.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 02:26:40 AM
On a personal level, thinking of him aside from work, I do feel really bad for him, and worried as well, but on the other hand, whether he is coping with his workload and how much pressure he is being put under by management above him, is hard for me to raise as an issue, considering I'm below all of these people in the hierarchy. I think he would take it as the most extreme underhand kind of attack for me to start asking if he's coping. It's good to bear it in mind though when considering his actions and the things he's saying to me.
Post by: cerat0n1a on September 09, 2016, 02:44:39 AM
Specially "his initial instinct was that you betrayed him by exposing his weak management to his bosses, so he wanted to get rid of you." Other people in my life (not connected to work) have also echoed this. It all felt so House of Cards that I was thinking 'that can't possible be the case, it's so over the top, DB wouldn't be that terrible and Machiavellian'. But actually, y'know, that could be exactly what's going on.
I don't see this as terribly machiavellian. Your boss has his own mortgage, career, concerns about living off tins of baked beans etc. to worry about and is probably already under pressure over the number of people leaving, concerned about how the department/group will cope etc. In his eyes, you going over his head and telling senior management that you want to leave will look like a bit of a betrayal and a common (illogical) psychological reaction might be to prepare himself by thinking that he wanted you to go, you were never that great etc.
In perhaps the saddest/most glorious of twists, I just re-read the email inviting me to interview and it starts 'Dear Kirsty'.
Kirsty is not my name (and neither is Torran, naturally!).
Copy and Pasted same invitation email to all candidates, forgot to change the name on yours would be my guess, nothing to worry about.
(I did once hire somebody who replied to a job ad in the local paper in pre-internet days - they had applied for a different job in a different company, but then copied the wrong address details onto the envelope...)
It's not often one can say this on the internet, but I think you've had a lot of really great advice on this thread. Fingers crossed.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 07:21:21 AM
Confirmed the interview is for me (and ofcourse, Kirsty, wherever she is, and others I'm sure).
DB came back to work today with a black eye and about 5 days stubble. He seems in good spirits (explained that he fell hence injury) but the more I think about it, the more I think I need to ask him if he's doing ok. Privately. Also if I leave at some point then I could speak with him about how he's doing and it won't seem like an accusation or reflection of job/workplace stuff. Ooh its tricky.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 07:24:38 AM
Specially "his initial instinct was that you betrayed him by exposing his weak management to his bosses, so he wanted to get rid of you." Other people in my life (not connected to work) have also echoed this. It all felt so House of Cards that I was thinking 'that can't possible be the case, it's so over the top, DB wouldn't be that terrible and Machiavellian'. But actually, y'know, that could be exactly what's going on.
I don't see this as terribly machiavellian. Your boss has his own mortgage, career, concerns about living off tins of baked beans etc. to worry about and is probably already under pressure over the number of people leaving, concerned about how the department/group will cope etc. In his eyes, you going over his head and telling senior management that you want to leave will look like a bit of a betrayal and a common (illogical) psychological reaction might be to prepare himself by thinking that he wanted you to go, you were never that great etc.In perhaps the saddest/most glorious of twists, I just re-read the email inviting me to interview and it starts 'Dear Kirsty'.
Kirsty is not my name (and neither is Torran, naturally!).
Copy and Pasted same invitation email to all candidates, forgot to change the name on yours would be my guess, nothing to worry about.
(I did once hire somebody who replied to a job ad in the local paper in pre-internet days - they had applied for a different job in a different company, but then copied the wrong address details onto the envelope...)
It's not often one can say this on the internet, but I think you've had a lot of really great advice on this thread. Fingers crossed.
Bahaha and you hired them! That worked out so well - that's brilliant :)
Yep I can 100% see that it looked like I just betrayed him by going over his head. It started with me saying 'I'm leaving', then senior management saying 'but why?' and then the explanation of the why turned into this absolute escalating clusterfuck which involved hugely landing my direct boss in the shit. By that point I was like 'Well. I did not handle this well at all'.
Post by: pbkmaine on September 09, 2016, 08:17:59 AM
. Sometimes I learned from them.
Post by: TexasRunner on September 09, 2016, 10:36:00 AM
haha you know what, I *have* been given the most amazing advice on this thread. It is highly unusual for the internet!! Feeling really grateful that so many people took the time to review my stressed-out-of-my-head-debacle and offer their thoughts/questions/ideas.
Confirmed the interview is for me (and ofcourse, Kirsty, wherever she is, and others I'm sure).
DB came back to work today with a black eye and about 5 days stubble. He seems in good spirits (explained that he fell hence injury) but the more I think about it, the more I think I need to ask him if he's doing ok. Privately. Also if I leave at some point then I could speak with him about how he's doing and it won't seem like an accusation or reflection of job/workplace stuff. Ooh its tricky.
Of course he fell on a fence. Whats the first rule of fight club?!
Post by: Dicey on September 09, 2016, 11:01:23 AM
Right now, I'm thinking that your boss's life has turned to shit since the promotion and he isn't handling it well. Things aren't good in his personal life either. And then the one person in the workplace he can count on turned and massively dumped on him and he can't fire you, because you're "protected". Of course he's pissed!
Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if his thinking is something like this. Definitely take him aside and privalely apologize profusely, even if you have to cross your fingers behind your back. It's your best shot at making this situation tenable until you can sock away some more reserve. I honestly think you might just outlast him.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 12:37:59 PM
haha you know what, I *have* been given the most amazing advice on this thread. It is highly unusual for the internet!! Feeling really grateful that so many people took the time to review my stressed-out-of-my-head-debacle and offer their thoughts/questions/ideas.
Confirmed the interview is for me (and ofcourse, Kirsty, wherever she is, and others I'm sure).
DB came back to work today with a black eye and about 5 days stubble. He seems in good spirits (explained that he fell hence injury) but the more I think about it, the more I think I need to ask him if he's doing ok. Privately. Also if I leave at some point then I could speak with him about how he's doing and it won't seem like an accusation or reflection of job/workplace stuff. Ooh its tricky.
Of course he fell on a fence. Whats the first rule of fight club?!
Bahahahahaha!! Well I guess the man's got to find an outlet for his stress somewhere.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 12:52:02 PM
Wow, Torran, lots of parallels in our lives. I'll come back to share some of that later.
Right now, I'm thinking that your boss's life has turned to shit since the promotion and he isn't handling it well. Things aren't good in his personal life either. And then the one person in the workplace he can count on turned and massively dumped on him and he can't fire you, because you're "protected". Of course he's pissed!
Not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if his thinking is something like this. Definitely take him aside and privalely apologize profusely, even if you have to cross your fingers behind your back. It's your best shot at making this situation tenable until you can sock away some more reserve. I honestly think you might just outlast him.
Y'know, I think you're right on the money with regards to DB. I have seen him change quite a lot after his promotion - he has gradually but definitely become much less assured, more forgetful, apt to change his mind constantly (I've overheard staff talking about waiting a week after he makes a decision before they act on it, because he might just turn around and change his mind again). He dumped so much stuff on me that I felt was nothing to do with my job (having to sort of HR issues with people I who I do not line-manage, awkward), but actually I think that was all part of his overwhelm. Also frankly from what I've gathered about his private life I think the pressure just never stops for him. He talks sometimes about how he's always 'fire-fighting' and never gets a moment to himself. I dunno, I mean everyone can talk like that sometimes about their lives, but I wonder if it's actually more serious than I realised.
I did have one short chat with him a week ago in which I said to him that it wasn't my intention for things to have escalated with senior management to the level that it did. I will definitely do as you say, it will be good to try and mend things and I think it will hopefully dig us out of the current stand-off we are in. Ooft so many mixed metaphors there, sorry.
In terms of outlasting him - maybe, maybe. To be honest I don't want his job at all, because it looks a w f u l for reasons described already. But he might leave and we might get someone new in. Weirdly I turned down the promotion that I got, because I had no interest in joining the many, complicated ranks of management in my current workplace, but DB persuaded me to go for it. I really do not want to climb the ranks (at least not in this organisation!) Whatever increase in salary they gave me, it wouldn't be worth it.
Interesting reflection! I hope you didn't have your life tipped upside down by illness etc. But if you did, I hope the pieces all fell back into the right places.
Post by: Torran on September 09, 2016, 12:53:38 PM
Post by: Daleth on September 09, 2016, 02:22:32 PM
If it were me, I'd keep the job. But I don't know all of the details. Keep looking for a new job.
Yes, and have some competent people look at your resume to see if it can be improved so you can get interviews.