Author Topic: Interviewer asking for salary range?  (Read 3286 times)

FINate

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2021, 12:20:23 PM »
It's worth noting that the hiring manager is the one playing games here. jeromedawg has already had an interview therefore under California law the hiring manager is obliged to supply the salary range when requested. He has refused to provide this information. Therefore, the company's integrity is in question, not jeromedawg's.

Do not volunteer your current salary information! Instead, focus on what salary range is acceptable to you. If they inquire about your salary history I would walk away, but not before informing the manager that he is violating California employment law and may be liable for damages. However, I don't need a job or the money, so I can afford to do this. YMMV.

jamesbond007

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2021, 12:29:43 PM »
Under CA law the employer has no business bothering about an incoming employee's past salary.

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2021, 01:01:40 PM »
Under CA law the employer has no business bothering about an incoming employee's past salary.

Wanted to clarify that they haven't asked about my past salary... not yet at least. In this case, they're refusing to provide me with the salary range of the position (which they are also obligated to do per CA law per an earlier post).


It's worth noting that the hiring manager is the one playing games here. jeromedawg has already had an interview therefore under California law the hiring manager is obliged to supply the salary range when requested. He has refused to provide this information. Therefore, the company's integrity is in question, not jeromedawg's.

Do not volunteer your current salary information! Instead, focus on what salary range is acceptable to you. If they inquire about your salary history I would walk away, but not before informing the manager that he is violating California employment law and may be liable for damages. However, I don't need a job or the money, so I can afford to do this. YMMV.

At the moment I'm still mulling over the salary range. I'll probably go with what I last responded to you with, knowing that I'm shooting really high and expecting that they'll pass. It's slightly difficult to do this knowing that the position does sound more interesting and that there's potentially better stability at the other company. However they don't have a gleaming reputation as far as working there either at least per what I've read on Glassdoor. I should note that they do have a very good reputation as far as what they offer to customers, and that holding one or more certs with them is a good and prestigious thing for any practitioner worth his or her weight in my profession (particularly in the sense of job advancement). So if anything, that's the ultimate allure/appeal of this in my mind.

EDIT: do you think the hiring manager, knowing CA law, could have framed our talk as merely a talk/discussion and not an actual interview so that he could avoid having to give the salary requirements? Is this even possible?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 01:49:19 PM by jeromedawg »

secondcor521

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2021, 03:03:01 PM »
Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance.  Hiring manager, especially if on the tech side and not the HR/business side, probably was trained on CA law requirements in a one day class, but perhaps they forgot, or missed the training, or didn't really think it was important.  Don't invent a conspiracy where there probably isn't one.

Also, FWIW, we never used requested salary range for ranking candidates, deciding whether to interview, difficulty of interview questions, or anything like that.  We usually needed a person who could roughly do X.  We reviewed resumes, did a phone screen, invited a handful of candidates for onsite interviews, filtered out candidates who couldn't do X, then ranked the remaining candidates as to how well we thought they could do X.  We'd then take the top candidate and go further with them.  It was at this point that we asked them desired salary range so we could see if we could even negotiate something reasonable for both parties.  If they declined (which was uncommon and usually only because we were too slow and they found another better offer somewhere else), then we'd repeat this latter part with the second candidate on the list.

That's basically how we did it at two Fortune 500 tech companies over my 16 years there for engineering and management jobs ranging from new college hire to second level managers of 50 people and salaries ranging from $50K to $200K.  Again, though, my experience ended in about 2016, so things may have changed since then.

FINate

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2021, 07:04:21 PM »
EDIT: do you think the hiring manager, knowing CA law, could have framed our talk as merely a talk/discussion and not an actual interview so that he could avoid having to give the salary requirements? Is this even possible?

I don't think he's intentionally flouting the law. Just doing old school salary negotiation.

ctuser1

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2021, 06:22:54 AM »
For what it is worth - purely in my own personal experience, a candidate who comes with an already high salary, no other red flags in the resume (e.g. short tenures in all jobs and hopping from one job to the next too quickly), AND is driving a hard bargain, would fit the narrative of a competent candidate that has already been vetted by the previous employer (=high salary).

If/when I am the hiring manager on the other side of the table, I would put quite a bit of pressure to get him/her over and above an obviously incompetent one demanding half the salary. The cost of an incompetent hire is tremendous. If the HR is busting the hiring manager's balls about salary range at that point, then the hiring manager will likely put quite a bit of fight.

And I speak from experience on both sides of the table. Just last year, DW got hired 15k above the top end of the advertised salary range for a position. So my second-hand experience is quite fresh, while the first-hand experiences are a little older.


jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2021, 09:05:56 AM »
Thanks all. I responded shooting for the high range - I'm totally not expecting anything to come of it at this point. If it does, icing on the cake and I'll send all of you some virtual beers LOL

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2021, 11:00:56 AM »
Just heard back from the hiring manager and he basically said the salary requirement is outside of the range and any additional negotiation wouldn't make sense. So it sounds like it's way above and out of range of what they're looking for, which is what I was suspecting.

I'm still a bit disappointed that he wouldn't give a range but I really wouldn't be surprised if it's less than what I'm currently at now.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 11:05:52 AM by jeromedawg »

NYCWife

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2021, 12:50:01 PM »
I agree with you, jeromedawg, that the salary they would be willing to offer must be substantially lower than the range you quoted. The fact that they wouldn't give you a range or be willing to engage in any dialogue about the range you provided speaks volumes.

As a former hiring manager at multiple companies, I can speak from experience that many organizations want prospective employees to quote a low range so that they feel justified in paying that low range. As a separate source of pain, the staff on my team had wildly different pay ranges based on what they stipulated during the interview phase, and that disparity never went away--everyone got a 1%-2% raise per year, so if you were already starting off strong, you'd keep that pay advantage.

You'll be better off finding employment with an organization who can pay you a competitive wage for the skills and abilities you bring.

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2021, 03:52:51 PM »
I agree with you, jeromedawg, that the salary they would be willing to offer must be substantially lower than the range you quoted. The fact that they wouldn't give you a range or be willing to engage in any dialogue about the range you provided speaks volumes.

As a former hiring manager at multiple companies, I can speak from experience that many organizations want prospective employees to quote a low range so that they feel justified in paying that low range. As a separate source of pain, the staff on my team had wildly different pay ranges based on what they stipulated during the interview phase, and that disparity never went away--everyone got a 1%-2% raise per year, so if you were already starting off strong, you'd keep that pay advantage.

You'll be better off finding employment with an organization who can pay you a competitive wage for the skills and abilities you bring.

Yea, the more I think about our conversation my overall opinion of the organization has gone down... especially after reading the Glassdoor reviews of many first-hand accounts. I'm sure there's less exposure to "office politics" being remote and also on the team that I would have been on but I'm sure I'd be more directly exposed to them if/when they were to come up. As mentioned before the org has a great reputation and prestige if you hold any certs from them and is great if you are one of the advisory members/researchers partnering with the org to create content etc but this isn't the same as working for the actual org. To be affiliated with them can translate to good things for career advancement, gaining notoriety, and even having a chance to meet/mingle/network/work with some of the most prolific names in the industry.

What @ctuser1 mentioned regarding competence comes to mind - while I may not be 'current' on some of those certs or material, I think the manager might have been looking more at my experience in how long I've stuck it out with different companies over the past decade since he wasn't scrutinizing anything about the certs or related knowledge much. I think they just want to bring in someone who can catch up quickly, get the job done, and do it all for low-cost (so "good, fast and cheap - I don't want two. I want all three").  I'd say they're going to be a bit hard-pressed to find someone with a lot of experience to 'downgrade' to this position with all the givens. The irony is that from reading between the lines, the budget for this position as far as salary is concerned seems to be at best on par but likely less than what someone holding multiple of their certs would be seeking, so even more so I think it will be a bit of challenge finding someone. You never know though - I'm sure there are way more people willing to work for peanuts than I realize :) Anyway, they seem of want the best of both worlds for a bargain.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 04:41:24 PM by jeromedawg »

uniwelder

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2021, 05:41:13 PM »
I'm sure there are way more people willing to work for peanuts than I realize :) Anyway, they seem of want the best of both worlds for a bargain.

I've been following along, curious what the outcome would be.  When you first mentioned it was a remote work position and salary wouldn't be adjusted for cost of living, I assumed it would eventually go to someone living in a much cheaper area than you.  I happen to live in a very LCOL area (Appalachian southwest VA) near a very good university.  I don't know what you do, but I'd bet there are some incredibly qualified people that would probably be very happy working for half of your asking salary.  The department IT people at the university make 40-60k.  100k would put you in the top 1% of earners in this area.

edited to add--- This goes to a much bigger discussion on the future of remote work and LCOL vs HCOL areas.  I've talked a good bit to friends/coworkers about how our area is likely to see a big boom in popularity as more people are able to work from home, enjoy the outdoors, and make a heck of a salary (for the area) while undercutting HCOL people by about half.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 05:46:50 PM by uniwelder »

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2021, 05:57:38 PM »
I'm sure there are way more people willing to work for peanuts than I realize :) Anyway, they seem of want the best of both worlds for a bargain.

I've been following along, curious what the outcome would be.  When you first mentioned it was a remote work position and salary wouldn't be adjusted for cost of living, I assumed it would eventually go to someone living in a much cheaper area than you.  I happen to live in a very LCOL area (Appalachian southwest VA) near a very good university.  I don't know what you do, but I'd bet there are some incredibly qualified people that would probably be very happy working for half of your asking salary.  The department IT people at the university make 40-60k.  100k would put you in the top 1% of earners in this area.

edited to add--- This goes to a much bigger discussion on the future of remote work and LCOL vs HCOL areas.  I've talked a good bit to friends/coworkers about how our area is likely to see a big boom in popularity as more people are able to work from home, enjoy the outdoors, and make a heck of a salary (for the area) while undercutting HCOL people by about half.

You are probably right - I'm sure they'll find someone eventually in a MCOL or LCOL who would be more than willing to take the position. As far as it being remote, that's becoming less of a novelty these days hahaha.


FINate

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2021, 06:01:59 PM »
Sorry it didn't work out, but sometimes not getting the job is the best outcome :)

ender

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2021, 06:10:50 PM »
I do not understand the hesitation about sharing the "current salary" with a new company interviewing you. It clearly is a major factor in your decision as to whether you will or will not accept a job. So, why play games around it?

I have personally twice negotiated ~35% pay hikes during job changes during my career, and I helped/guided my wife through a 50% hike last year. In all these cases, there were real reasons why anything less would not be worth my (or DW's while) - things like "I have another offer much closer to home. You need to pay me higher to consider it", or "The amount of travel required in the new job warrants additional raise over my current job compared to a normal job hop." etc. etc.

In a lot of states, it is not legal to for an employer to ask for the current salary from prospective employees. I've personally, however, found it makes the negotiation smoother. Just know what you need to take the offer and communicate in clear terms. A job that pays in six figures will likely not be scuttled over $15k this way or that. At a minimum, it will be considered a failure for the HR guy doing the negotiation.

If you currently make $130k, how much would you need in this new place to switch? Why? Just figure out the details of this and communicate in a few bullet points.

Information asymmetry is a huge deal in compensation negotiations.

Companies know so much more than candidates. They know, at a minimum, what folks at their company are paid. Most know some semblance of market rates in the area via things like Radford studies, etc.

Candidates have literally one datapoint in most cases - their current compensation.


From a candidate perspective it is 100% the right thing to get at a minimum the target compensation range for the position before giving away your current compensation (or even expected comp for that matter).

There are three outcomes here:

  • Candidate currently makes much lower than company band
  • Candidate currently makes within the company band
  • Candidate currently makes much higher than company band

If the candidate communicates current comp, #2 results in the process continuing. #3 doesn't. #1 probably does and the candidate will be happy but often on the lower end of the range.

If the company communicates range, #1/#2 both end up better for the candidate - #1 significantly better. #3 probably still results in the process not continuing.


ctuser1

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2021, 06:12:10 PM »
You are probably right - I'm sure they'll find someone eventually in a MCOL or LCOL who would be more than willing to take the position. As far as it being remote, that's becoming less of a novelty these days hahaha.

Please don't sell yourself short and feel dejected! Being able to hop into a car (or train in my case) and show up for a meeting in SanFran (NYC in my case) with a 2-hour notice should be worth a lot of money after the pandemic is over.

There has always been folks in India asking for $27/hour (real billing rate to the end client from one of the big consulting firms - think IBM/Accenture etc.) competing with you for your job. It will be nothing different.

And if you want Appalachia/outdoors at a relatively lower (compared to Orange County) living cost, well - come over to where I live: https://cnyhiking.com/ATinConnecticut.htm

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2021, 07:10:56 PM »
You are probably right - I'm sure they'll find someone eventually in a MCOL or LCOL who would be more than willing to take the position. As far as it being remote, that's becoming less of a novelty these days hahaha.

Please don't sell yourself short and feel dejected! Being able to hop into a car (or train in my case) and show up for a meeting in SanFran (NYC in my case) with a 2-hour notice should be worth a lot of money after the pandemic is over.

There has always been folks in India asking for $27/hour (real billing rate to the end client from one of the big consulting firms - think IBM/Accenture etc.) competing with you for your job. It will be nothing different.

And if you want Appalachia/outdoors at a relatively lower (compared to Orange County) living cost, well - come over to where I live: https://cnyhiking.com/ATinConnecticut.htm

You know, I've had it on my mind to go to a lower COL for a while now and one that has a good outdoors scene (as well as fishing) would almost be a necessity for me LOL.
Only thing is we do want our kids to continue learning Mandarin and feel the immersion program is such a good way. I don't know if they have any out that way unfortunately...

Sorry it didn't work out, but sometimes not getting the job is the best outcome :)

Agreed, the risk is much greater when there are so many unknowns. There are few companies I would comfortably hop to right now without having to think much about it...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 07:13:17 PM by jeromedawg »

secondcor521

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2021, 10:10:09 PM »
Only thing is we do want our kids to continue learning Mandarin and feel the immersion program is such a good way. I don't know if they have any out that way unfortunately...

Yeah, pretty sure nobody knows Mandarin in Connecticut.  https://eall.yale.edu/

My state would be pretty good as far as fishing goes, but we lack indoor plumbing just yet so you'll probably want to rule us out as well.

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2021, 12:23:53 PM »
Only thing is we do want our kids to continue learning Mandarin and feel the immersion program is such a good way. I don't know if they have any out that way unfortunately...

Yeah, pretty sure nobody knows Mandarin in Connecticut.  https://eall.yale.edu/

My state would be pretty good as far as fishing goes, but we lack indoor plumbing just yet so you'll probably want to rule us out as well.

Sarcasm?

I was referring specifically to K-12 Mandarin immersion programs (my kids are not yet in Kindergarten) per a reference list here, https://miparentscouncil.org/full-mandarin-immersion-school-list/, granted it hasn't been updated in a while.
MIP is a thing across the nation but not so popular where *all* states and school districts have a program... the reality is that there aren't *that* many options out there as far as public schooling is concerned. I suppose we could send them to some sort of private academy, which could be an option/trade-off if living in a LCOL and if the school isn't too far from wherever we would live.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 01:23:58 PM by jeromedawg »

ysette9

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2021, 03:25:51 PM »
In the little bit of searching Iíve done it appears that places that are cosmopolitan enough to have language immersion schools (public and private) tend to also have higher costs of living. You need a certain critical mass of people interested to get these programs off the ground and those same type of people tend to want the things offered by more urban areas.

Iím happy to hear of clinger examples. For our family we are interested in mandrin and/or French immersion schools, public preferred.

jeromedawg

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2021, 03:38:16 PM »
In the little bit of searching Iíve done it appears that places that are cosmopolitan enough to have language immersion schools (public and private) tend to also have higher costs of living. You need a certain critical mass of people interested to get these programs off the ground and those same type of people tend to want the things offered by more urban areas.

Iím happy to hear of clinger examples. For our family we are interested in mandrin and/or French immersion schools, public preferred.

I think you're right. The Mandarin program is generally more in demand in areas that have a HCOL and for that you need a lot of interested people (these will primarily be the 1st or 2nd gen Chinese speakers) in a particular area to even create that kind of demand. In addition to that, another factor is that the area this is in may be so heavily populated with Chinese-speakers and 'affordable' private schools and institutes that there actually may be no need or desire for this kind of program - Irvine is a *perfect* example of this. There is a high population of Chinese (esp 1st gen) in Irvine and I think they want their kids to learn English - to them there's no need to immerse them in Chinese culture or language because they can do it at home or privately in the community (through various Chinese centers, etc).
Aside from that, not many places offer any sort of continuation of immersion beyond elementary or middle school. We'd like for the language to be stuck in our kids' minds which to me means all throughout high school.
One seemingly non-HCOL area I that comes to mind that offers what seems to be a more comprehensive program is in Vancouver WA. I've been thinking about this place repeatedly for the past 3-4 years even prior to learning about the immersion program there, so maybe it's worth a trip up to check things out.
The only caveat I'm not sure of is what difficult there is, if any, when moving your family and transferring your kid(s) from one immersion program into another.

ysette9

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Re: Interviewer asking for salary range?
« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2021, 07:42:09 PM »
I reached out to the principle and the PTA and exchanged a number of emails with our target school before deciding to take a risk and make a move. I know they canít guarantee anything but they could give me a general idea of what the chances might be of being accepted. Most school websites also have info on applications and the admissions process that may or may not be helpful. So far it seems that the more complex and the more regulations there are on admissions, the more competitive the program is.