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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: RidetheRain on November 29, 2017, 03:15:04 PM

Title: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on November 29, 2017, 03:15:04 PM
I'm trying to figure out if I'm being a millennial snowflake or rightfully pissed off at my company.

Basically, I've been working for my company for 4 years now. I just got notice of my annual review decisions. I got a sig above rating (the highest) with nothing but praise.

Then they started to waffle saying that they promoted too many people this year (I was promoted last year and don't have time at level for another) and they strained the budget. So I get no raise and 0.25% bonus.

I'm pretty ticked because the first half of the review was glowing and about how they didn't know what they could possibly do without me. Am I wrong to expect a raise for that kind of hard work? Or am I showing my snowflake? This is my first job out of college so I don't know if this is just a thing.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Cromacster on November 29, 2017, 03:23:11 PM
Start applying for other jobs, if you get a decent offer, take it to the current employer and see if they can really go on without you.

Edit to add:
4 years in your first job is a long time.  It's worth considering other options, or at least leverage other options for bigger raises as stated above.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on November 29, 2017, 03:24:45 PM
Start applying for other jobs, if you get a decent offer, take it to the current employer and see if they can really go on without you.

This, except I would take the decent offer and leave.

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/job-hopping-higher-income/
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: trollwithamustache on November 29, 2017, 03:27:54 PM
4-5 years at your first job is a good long run. Time to go out to bid and get a 15 5o 20 % raise.

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Lady SA on November 29, 2017, 03:29:47 PM
Agreed. Annual raises should at the very least keep up with inflation, otherwise you are actively losing money.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Stash Engineer on November 29, 2017, 03:31:09 PM
I would be pissed.  How is the company doing as a whole?  I could possibly understand if the company as a whole did poorly this year, but it's not your fault they promoted too many people.  Being that it's your first job out of school AND you've been there 4 years, I'd start applying for other jobs to see how you stack up salary-wise.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on November 29, 2017, 03:35:56 PM
Company is doing great. Shares are up from $115 a year ago to $140 today. They've acquired a bunch of smaller companies to diversify the core business. Everything has been about how wonderful things are for the company.

I've been considering finding a new job for a while but was waiting for my review to make a decision. Guess I know that decision now. I just want to know if I can complain about this without looking like a dick.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on November 29, 2017, 03:41:21 PM
Company is doing great. Shares are up from $115 a year ago to $140 today. They've acquired a bunch of smaller companies to diversify the core business. Everything has been about how wonderful things are for the company.

I've been considering finding a new job for a while but was waiting for my review to make a decision. Guess I know that decision now. I just want to know if I can complain about this without looking like a dick.

Eh, I'm not sure it's worth complaining if you've already expressed your displeasure with the situation.

I have a good friend that I used to work with (it was his first job out of college) and he used to go on and on about how you need to work long hours for no money in order to get ahead.  Meanwhile, me (the ex-union/government employee) worked 40 hours (because 50+ hour weeks on an under-market salary is bullshit), took comp time if I went over 40, then left after 3 years for a 60%+ raise (...actually 80% after bonus).  He finally got a job someplace else a couple of months ago and is stunned at how much better basically everything is.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Stash Engineer on November 29, 2017, 03:48:10 PM
Company is doing great. Shares are up from $115 a year ago to $140 today. They've acquired a bunch of smaller companies to diversify the core business. Everything has been about how wonderful things are for the company.

I've been considering finding a new job for a while but was waiting for my review to make a decision. Guess I know that decision now. I just want to know if I can complain about this without looking like a dick.

Yep, it's time to move on. 
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MrsPete on November 29, 2017, 06:21:53 PM
If you were saying, "I feel I am so important.  I am sure they couldn't do without me."  I'd think you were full of yourself and being a special snowflake.  But you have it in writing from the company; this isn't a case of overblown ego -- it's fact. 

I'd lean towards pissed.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Capt j-rod on November 29, 2017, 07:41:55 PM
Employment is a simple equation. You do enough not be fired and your boss pays you enough to keep you around. Sounds like it's out of whack. How much FU money do you have? Take some interviews, look around, negotiate and make changes on your terms.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: ETBen on November 29, 2017, 08:13:57 PM
I agree with all of the others. But I will also share that some companies limit how many staff can get merit increases. I worked for a profitable company in the Fortune Top 10. We were routinely budgeted to give only 75% of staff the merit increase. Even if all were performing well. We would keep track of who got it each year so we wouldn’t skip someone 2 years in a row. We also tried to budget the separate bonus money budget so we could give a lump sum to those people that didn’t get a merit increase. Needless to say, I don’t work there anymore for a number of reasons.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on November 29, 2017, 08:19:34 PM
I agree with all of the others. But I will also share that some companies limit how many staff can get merit increases. I worked for a profitable company in the Fortune Top 10. We were routinely budgeted to give only 75% of staff the merit increase. Even if all were performing well. We would keep track of who got it each year so we wouldn’t skip someone 2 years in a row. We also tried to budget the separate bonus money budget so we could give a lump sum to those people that didn’t get a merit increase. Needless to say, I don’t work there anymore for a number of reasons.

Yup.  I was a top performer at my last job but I got a 2% raise because the department had a certain amount of raises allotted, so for anyone who got 3% someone else had to get 1%.

Leaving was an excellent decision on my part.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on November 30, 2017, 05:39:30 AM
Another shout that you need to update that CV, and get interviewing.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Dave1442397 on November 30, 2017, 05:45:44 AM
Yeah, time to go. I loved my first job. The work was interesting and fast-paced. I was there four years and expecting a promotion, and got the same blurb you did - not enough time at the current level, we can't promote everyone, blah, blah, blah.

A couple of friends had left and gone to another company and said I should interview there. I got a new job with a 34% pay raise. When I gave notice, suddenly my promotion got approved, but I didn't stay.

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: chasesfish on November 30, 2017, 05:48:04 AM
I have a different question than the others:

What is your value to the company?  Do you work in a line of business where you can directly determine your value?

I agree with the others, a 0% raise and that level of bonus should trigger you to explore your options.  You may find out you're worth more elsewhere, or you may find that your value is capped out and you need to develop your skills.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MightyAl on November 30, 2017, 05:48:08 AM
You have to take care of yourself because this company won't.  The company can't say they have to tighten the belts and have the stock move up 20%.  Your manager can make an exception to the budget but then that would make them look bad on their review because you know that they are going to get a raise this year plus a fatter bonus than you. 

Don't get me wrong there are some good places out there that take care of their people.  This is obviously not one of them.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: FindingFI on November 30, 2017, 06:18:56 AM
My best "raises" have come from changing jobs.  And nothing says that you have to take a new job if it's offered, but you definitely can't accept a new job with increased pay if you never applied.  I don't see a downside to finding out your value in the market.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: plog on November 30, 2017, 06:59:42 AM
Quote
Am I wrong to expect a raise for that kind of hard work?

Yes.  You are incorrect to expect anything.

Quote
Or am I showing my snowflake?

No, this isn't a characteristric trait of your generation, it's a characteristic trait of human beings.

Quit anthropomorphizing organizations. They are not people and do not behave as such, so stop expecting them to. Organizations cannot have loyalty, they do not know a sense of fairness. All traits we associate with close friends or just humans are not possible with organizations.


That's also good news.  You owe them none of that in return.  They are entities to be navigated and manipulated to benefit you without moral reservations for how they will ultimately "feel".  That doesn't mean you get to crap on real life people who belong to those organizations, but it does mean you get to act with near impunity when dealing with organizations.

Go get a new job.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: mustache you a question on November 30, 2017, 07:23:36 AM
I'm trying to figure out if I'm being a millennial snowflake or rightfully pissed off at my company.

Basically, I've been working for my company for 4 years now. I just got notice of my annual review decisions. I got a sig above rating (the highest) with nothing but praise.

Then they started to waffle saying that they promoted too many people this year (I was promoted last year and don't have time at level for another) and they strained the budget. So I get no raise and 0.25% bonus.

I'm pretty ticked because the first half of the review was glowing and about how they didn't know what they could possibly do without me. Am I wrong to expect a raise for that kind of hard work? Or am I showing my snowflake? This is my first job out of college so I don't know if this is just a thing.

No you should be pissed.  I would look for another job if I were you.  I spent 7 years at the same company after college and at the last 3 years of my job I received above expectations on all of my reviews but was only granted 1% raises each year.  The company was struggling but I saw others get raises and promotions all around me so I was very frustrated.  Ended up hating the job and my last year the work really suffered as a result. 

Long story short, go get yours...
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: FLBiker on November 30, 2017, 07:54:14 AM
I'm going to disagree (slightly) with the majority here and say you shouldn't be pissed off.  I absolutely agree with asking for a raise / applying for other jobs, and I don't think either of those things remotely make you a jerk.  But if you're going to be pissed off every time your employer doesn't take the initiative in making your individual work situation better, you're going to be pissed off a lot.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Dicey on November 30, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
I'm going to disagree (slightly) with the majority here and say you shouldn't be pissed off.  I absolutely agree with asking for a raise / applying for other jobs, and I don't think either of those things remotely make you a jerk.  But if you're going to be pissed off every time your employer doesn't take the initiative in making your individual work situation better, you're going to be pissed off a lot.
I didn't get that impression at all. One's salary is agruably the only way one can measure their worth to the company. RtR's company has shown their hand, so it's time to get the feelers out.

RtR, aim for better work/life balance, commute, benefits, AND more pay. Please don't limit your expectations to 15-20%, as was suggested above.

I always used job changes to ratchet up my income, because it works. Don't be afraid to aim high and counter their initial offer, even if it's just to nab an extra week or two of vacation. Always, always have a trip to an important family event in a faraway place already "booked" when you get the offer. They never want you more than when they don't have you.

And "plog", I understand the point you're trying to make, but Organizations are made up of Humans, as anyone who's had a good boss, followed by a bad boss can attest. Humans can and do make stupid decisions, as OP is experiencing.  However, I do completely agree with your last sentence. Get going, RtR!
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: FLBiker on November 30, 2017, 08:28:16 AM
I'm going to disagree (slightly) with the majority here and say you shouldn't be pissed off.  I absolutely agree with asking for a raise / applying for other jobs, and I don't think either of those things remotely make you a jerk.  But if you're going to be pissed off every time your employer doesn't take the initiative in making your individual work situation better, you're going to be pissed off a lot.
I didn't get that impression at all. One's salary is agruably the only way one can measure their worth to the company. RtR's company has shown their hand, so it's time to get the feelers out.

Sorry if I wasn't clear (I think we agree).  Absolutely apply for other jobs / ask for a raise.

There's just no reason to feel pissed off about it.  In my experience (limited, admittedly, and confined mostly to academia), most employers don't go out of their way to give people raises / promotions.  You have to ask / force their hand.  That doesn't piss me off.  There are other situations (ie promoting someone unqualified, refusing to address incompetence, etc.) where I think being "pissed off" is more warranted (though even there I'm not sure it helps).
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: trollwithamustache on November 30, 2017, 08:38:13 AM
I'm going to disagree (slightly) with the majority here and say you shouldn't be pissed off.  I absolutely agree with asking for a raise / applying for other jobs, and I don't think either of those things remotely make you a jerk.  But if you're going to be pissed off every time your employer doesn't take the initiative in making your individual work situation better, you're going to be pissed off a lot.

FL is making an important clarification, getting pissed about this is a waste of cycles.  What OP has described has happened to most of us, so its useful to try to study the organization and say why is XX getting what they got.  The next place will have its quirks and reward similar and different behaviors which may not be the ones you think you need to do to "do a good job". Hell, they may reward behaviors that are not even what your manager is telling you to do. That one is awkward!

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: formerlydivorcedmom on November 30, 2017, 09:46:43 AM
A great manager will figure out how to game the system to take care of their top performers...and if they can't find a way to do that, they'll start making plans to fill the vacancy for when the top performer leaves.  (One of my managers didn't have the money in her annual merit increase budget to take care of everyone she thought was deserving, so she got me a relatively large increase from the "retention" funds; at the time I wasn't looking for a job, but she told me she knew I would be if I didn't get a nice raise.)

A mediocre manager will hope that their top performers are too loyal to move on. 

If you like the job, the work, and the coworkers and don't want to leave, one option is to wait a few months, have a meeting with your boss, list out details of your accomplishments and the value that you specifically bring to the organization, and ask what needs to happen for you to get a raise that reflects your worth.  Be prepared at that time to start looking for another job, if you haven't already.

Or, look for a role on another team with a more proactive manager or director.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on November 30, 2017, 10:01:08 AM
Thanks for all the advice everyone, I definitely needed some perspective from people. It's really helpful to get a view into other people's experiences for this sort of thing. People are obnoxiously silent about personal raises and salary. It makes it hard to know what's normal and what's not.

I've calmed down from the initial anger. It was predictable but unhelpful as FLBiker pointed out. I'm disappointed in my boss who I started under about 9 months ago for not trying a little harder for me. My last boss was very willing to go to bat for his people, but the new girl is a little more placating and non-confrontational. I've got a feeling that played into this.

For what it's worth, I did ask for a raise on the spot when they said there was nothing and got a pretty standard (obviously rehearsed) line about decisions being final and wait until the next cycle.

I've been willing to leave my job for a while and have stayed a little because of timing and a little because of loyalty. But then, loyalty goes both ways. Thanks for the perspective. I definitely needed it. It's really easy to just let things happen and continue on the way things are.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: bluebelle on November 30, 2017, 10:34:45 AM
You didn't say how big your company is, but with megacorps, there is often little even a proactive boss can do.  It is the sad reality that you're worth more BEFORE you get the job - your biggest pay increases will always be with a job jump.

Often HR has ditated, and the fat cats have agreed (because, hey, they have stock options and a differnt bonus structure).  A group has x dollars for raises, and it's mandated that 80% of the team must be rated as 'successful' (or whatever fancy term your company uses for 'average', 'meets expectations').  So if you were on a team of superstars (and we all want to work on that team), everyone gets rated average.....But if you work on a team of duds (so your daily life is hell), you can get rated a superstar.....

You're young, so every crappy raise has a compound effect, since next year's percentage is based off of this year's raise and so on....

Like folks have said, start looking around (don't jump too often - that looks bad on a resume too)....and IMHO, no amount of money makes jumping to a crappy job worth it.

PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14. 
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on November 30, 2017, 10:52:18 AM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MayDay on November 30, 2017, 01:29:34 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MayDay on November 30, 2017, 01:30:42 PM
And if your boss senses that attitude form you she may have deservedly given you no raise on purpose.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: bognish on November 30, 2017, 02:10:24 PM
Above average review and no raise is bullshit. Update your resume and talk to a recruiter to verify that you are not making significantly more than market rate for your skill set and experience and if the market is hiring. If the market is active and you are willing to look and change jobs then there is nothing to lose from pushing for a higher bonus or raise from your company. If you have an old manager that will give you a reference then you can annoy your current one by asking. It is really good experience to practice pushing your manager for money until they say no. Come up with a list of accomplishments for the past year and new skills you have developed. Go back to your manager, close the door and say you have been thinking about the review, go over your list. Ask why should the company get more out of you without more pay? What do you need to do in the current year to ensure a raise? Make them be specific. If they can answer ask when you can schedule a follow up meeting to get an answer. If they push back ask how you can develop skills the company values so you can be promoted if they don't tell you.

Best case you end up with more money and don't need to look for a new job. Worst case is some awkward time with your boss and a good learning experience on how to handle future raises. Then bail on that company and manager.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on November 30, 2017, 02:53:07 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.

I don't think it's an asshole thing to say.

There's nothing wrong with the word "girl" when describing a female person roughly the same age as myself or younger. If she were a man I'd have said "the new guy" which wouldn't be offensive at all. I really don't see how using the female version of that phrase is suddenly wrong. It's also pretty shitty to assume anything about our professional relationship based on one word. It would be doing her a disservice to assume that she would act underhandedly to deny me a raise instead of talking to me.

The hello kitty joke was probably unnecessary since apparently, this wasn't a joke like I assumed.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: bluebelle on November 30, 2017, 03:19:49 PM
since you're only 4 years into the working world I was trying to give you some gentle advice.  Most women do not like to be referred as a 'girl', particularly in the business world.  You may think that girl is the female equivalent of guy, but to me the equivalent is gal.  And the equivalent of girl is boy.  Girl is all too often used a term to put a woman in her place, to ensure that she doesn't consider herself an equal.  Based on your answer, you may not think that way, but too often, that is the case.

Your answer about hello kitty and her speaking like a kindergarten teacher came across as offensive.  In retrospect, if you thought I was kidding, your response was appropriate, but you can see how easily things can be taken out of context when all we have is the written word.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: jamesbond007 on November 30, 2017, 03:29:13 PM
Move on. I did a mistake by sticking to my first employer out of college for 8 years. Raises were meagre. RSUs were laughable. Eventually quit and got a 33% raise and good chunk in sign-on bonus. Forget the money. Change is good.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on November 30, 2017, 03:48:16 PM
I have a different question than the others:

What is your value to the company?  Do you work in a line of business where you can directly determine your value?

I agree with the others, a 0% raise and that level of bonus should trigger you to explore your options.  You may find out you're worth more elsewhere, or you may find that your value is capped out and you need to develop your skills.

this!

It's time to start looking.  Companies often default to low raises on existing employees, for whatever reasons, relating to inertia, and the need to make up a gap in 15% of the employees this year (the average ones who are currently underpaid), leaving "0" for the top performers, etc.  Very short sighted. 

BUT, there is a chance that they know that they are the top paying employer around, and, at best, you would get even money elsewhere.   So bonuses / raises just aren't in the picture for you until you get a level promotion.

  Ensure you include the value of your benefits (health, pension, 401k, sick time, LTD, life insurance, PTO) in your analysis.. 
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: topshot on November 30, 2017, 04:43:19 PM
Another possibility I didn't notice being mentioned to at least make your compensation more palatable for now is to ask for other benefits instead such as some more PTO or telecommuting. If that is definitely off the table as well, then time to leave unless you love it there.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Brother Esau on November 30, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
I wouldn't be pissed but I would start looking for my next job. Did they say to you....."If you don't like it, the door is over there"?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MayDay on November 30, 2017, 08:13:35 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.

I don't think it's an asshole thing to say.

There's nothing wrong with the word "girl" when describing a female person roughly the same age as myself or younger. If she were a man I'd have said "the new guy" which wouldn't be offensive at all. I really don't see how using the female version of that phrase is suddenly wrong. It's also pretty shitty to assume anything about our professional relationship based on one word. It would be doing her a disservice to assume that she would act underhandedly to deny me a raise instead of talking to me.

The hello kitty joke was probably unnecessary since apparently, this wasn't a joke like I assumed.

You might not understand why, but two people have very clearly the ld you it isn't ok.

Listen to us, don't listen, whatever. But trust, women do not like to be called it referred to as girl, and if you are overheard using that language people will think poorly of YOU not her. Full stop.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on November 30, 2017, 11:06:43 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

I don't think it's an asshole thing to say.

If she were a man I'd have said "the new guy" which wouldn't be offensive at all. I really don't see how using the female version of that phrase is suddenly wrong.


Actually, The male version of that phrase is "the new boy".   The female version is "the new gal" which is a bit old-fashioned, but hey, why not.

So, what kind of looks do you get when you refer to your male colleagues the same age as you or younger as "the new boy"?   When was the last time you were referred to as "the boy" by someone else?..?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Enigma on November 30, 2017, 11:56:53 PM
I would look around.  Right now companies are suffering to find qualified individuals.  If you want to stay with the company then you can let them know that you are now starting to look around for a new job due to the lackluster raise.  Really look into building up your resume and consult others on having the perfect resume.

An employee is more valuable to the company than most companies are to them.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: chasesfish on December 01, 2017, 05:28:17 AM
You didn't say how big your company is, but with megacorps, there is often little even a proactive boss can do.  It is the sad reality that you're worth more BEFORE you get the job - your biggest pay increases will always be with a job jump.

Often HR has ditated, and the fat cats have agreed (because, hey, they have stock options and a differnt bonus structure).  A group has x dollars for raises, and it's mandated that 80% of the team must be rated as 'successful' (or whatever fancy term your company uses for 'average', 'meets expectations').  So if you were on a team of superstars (and we all want to work on that team), everyone gets rated average.....But if you work on a team of duds (so your daily life is hell), you can get rated a superstar.....

You're young, so every crappy raise has a compound effect, since next year's percentage is based off of this year's raise and so on....

Like folks have said, start looking around (don't jump too often - that looks bad on a resume too)....and IMHO, no amount of money makes jumping to a crappy job worth it.

PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

I wanted to chime in on this comment.  I work in middle management for a very large company with everything you said above (and I might even be a "fat cat", which is slightly less offensive than being called "girl" :)   )

Its still not that difficult to give a raise to one of my employees, it takes a second level of management approval (so my boss has final approval over an off-cycle raise or promotion for one of my employees).   We're not going to let a valuable employee leave over 2,5,10%, the cost of turnover is too high.  I'm on the revenue producing side of the company, so its a bit easier when there's a direct tie between individual or team compensation and individual/team revenue production.

My advice to the original poster is if the raise is almost 0%, he/she has one of two issues.  Incompetent/inexperienced leadership, or the department may really have a tight budget and not plan on replacing anyone who leaves.  The fancy term "we'll lower the FTEs through natural attrition" or "not backfill open positions".  Its kinder and friendlier than layoffs.  I don't personally agree with it, if I were me I'd stack rank the employees and give the lowest performer a severance to leave.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: AlanStache on December 01, 2017, 07:43:36 AM
Firstly "girl" wtf - just dont.  Always try to default to showing respect.  You can always fly the double birds on your way across a burning bridge latter on.

Not getting a raise sucks but as a few others have said you need to look at what you are worth vs what you are being paid.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: trollwithamustache on December 01, 2017, 08:35:22 AM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.
Anyone who wants to be taken seriously at work needs to leave the stuffed animals at home. 

And so, now we know with certainty that the organization doesn't take the manager seriously. jumping ship or hitting cruise control and working on a side hustle are both viable options.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: samsonator54321 on December 01, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
guy/gal vs girl/boy. Saying “the new girl” is like saying “the new boy”. I think that’s how most people would take it.

In regards to the raise I think this is one of the first steps in realizing loyalty doesn’t really exist from the company standpoint. Especially at big companies. Even if the person you report to is loyal when it comes down to raises or layoffs those decisions are made at a higher level many times. Also it’s not always someone out to get every last penny out of you, sometimes it’s just best for the business to not give raise.  If it’s an issue again next year see if the job market has something better to offer.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: acroy on December 01, 2017, 08:55:56 AM
So I get no raise and 0.25% bonus.

I'm pretty ticked because the first half of the review was glowing and about how they didn't know what they could possibly do without me. Am I wrong to expect a raise for that kind of hard work? Or am I showing my snowflake? This is my first job out of college so I don't know if this is just a thing.
I'm late to the party but agree, time to shop yourself around. You have nothing to loose and much to gain. I hate to say it but guard yourself against loyalty - you are a number, literally a 'resource' to them.
Raises should be 3% minimum in a healthy industry in this economy. Go get 'em tiger! ;)
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on December 02, 2017, 05:34:17 AM
Hell, this use of girl and setting masculine norms for a workplace culture needs to stop - I take it you are male?  Why do we label Hello Kitty items unprofessional, but then label other more masculine items such as sports trophies, car pictures, etc as professional? Neither seem to add or detract much as desk ornaments from most jobs.

If you don't understand why girl is so offensive, this twitter account might help https://twitter.com/manwhohasitall.




Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: kenner on December 02, 2017, 08:23:21 AM
Seriously.  OP, I work in an office of primarily men, in a megacorp with primarily men.  And yes, I call them men, because that's the appropriate term and I would be the one labelled unprofessional if I went around referring to them as boys--as you've been told your habit of calling women 'girls' is doing, despite your refusal to hear it.  And <gasp> multiple men I work with have stuffed animals in their offices.  They're decorations/jokes/whatever, and no one goes around announcing "So and so has a stuffed fish!  They must be a fourteen year old boy!"

Frankly, speaking as someone who's not a manager but is high enough in the tech lead pipeline to get asked to write a lot of reviews--if I heard someone referring to women as girls (and didn't apologize and correct themselves when it was pointed out why that was a problem), it would give me serious pause whether they could be trusted to lead a team or if they're going to be marginalizing (or alienating) a section of their workforce.  It may not matter at the level you're currently at, but as you start to move up this kind of unprofessional behavior is likely to sabotage you.

Oh, and to answer your original question--as other have said, this is, unfortunately, the world of megacorps and large businesses that are run by spreadsheet as much as people.  If you want a giant raise you'll probably have to go elsewhere.  Or at the very least have another offer, threaten to leave, and see if it goes up the chain high enough to get matched, although that can have a variety of repercussions and isn't usually considered the wisest idea.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: lhamo on December 02, 2017, 08:54:42 AM
You have no idea why she has that hello kitty thing in her office -- maybe it was the last birthday gift she got from a parent who died young. 

And maybe she talks to you like a kindergarten teacher because you act like a kindergartener.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Retire-Canada on December 02, 2017, 09:05:07 AM
It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.

Yes it is. And it won't help getting a raise.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Retire-Canada on December 02, 2017, 09:09:14 AM
So everyone is a superstar in their mind. Really everyone. Yet looking around a typical organization there are only a few superstars in reality.

I can't tell if you [OP] are actually a superstar or just think you are. I would suggest you do what other folks have suggested and look for a new job at a higher pay level. If you get one easily than you are probably underpaid and right to be pissed. If you don't get an offer that let's you know your current compensation is okay. If you have to work really hard to get a better paying job, but do get an offer take it and be happy.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: doneby35 on December 02, 2017, 10:01:15 AM
I don't think the OP meant anything by saying "girl", don't give him/her such a hard time for something so benign.
Example: Person 1 says "I've been seeing this new girl". If person 2 says "how rude of you to call her a girl, she's older than 14", then person 2 is being irrational and is focusing on the wrong thing.
However, in a professional setting, of course you don't go referring to people as girls and boys.

As to the main topic, it's simple, just look into other opportunities. If you happen to find something better, then leave.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Retire-Canada on December 02, 2017, 10:10:27 AM
I don't think the OP meant anything by saying "girl", don't give him/her such a hard time for something so benign.

That's like saying it's okay to be a little racist as long as you are just talking casually to your friends, but you keep it out of the workplace and act professionally there. The OP was talking about his boss. The word "girl" is not appropriate. Period. His follow up explanaition made it clear he was using "girl" specifically as a pejorative.

He's young. Getting some negative feedback on bad behaviour is doing him a favour.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Tester on December 02, 2017, 03:50:59 PM
And if your boss senses that attitude form you she may have deservedly given you no raise on purpose.

I am sorry but I can only say bullshit.
If the manager did that they should find another job and for sure not managing people.
I don't think the raises are given based on attitude.
If attitude is a problem that should be reflected in the review.
If the things listed in the first post are accurate there was no such remark in the review...

For the thread starter:
Welcome to the machine.

You should not give a shit about their limits on raise funds.
It is not your job to do that.
Your job is to do good work and their job is to recognize this and compensate it.
As long as they say: you are very good at what you do - and then they don't show that they are either lying or bullshiting.
Move. And be prepared to move again.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: YoungInvestor on December 02, 2017, 09:04:35 PM
I don't think the OP meant anything by saying "girl", don't give him/her such a hard time for something so benign.

That's like saying it's okay to be a little racist as long as you are just talking casually to your friends, but you keep it out of the workplace and act professionally there. The OP was talking about his boss. The word "girl" is not appropriate. Period. His follow up explanaition made it clear he was using "girl" specifically as a pejorative.

He's young. Getting some negative feedback on bad behaviour is doing him a favour.

There's a difference between casually mentioning it and derailing his thread.

I'm in the camp of those thinking that it would be incredibly petty of a manager to hold a grudge for this without mentioning anything and then passive-aggressively try to convey a message through a horrible raise. If she had a problem with that, she could have started by casually mentioning it and then having a stern conversation.

It's so far outside of the realm of reasonableness as to be pretty much impossible. And if it were true, the manager would be the one with the biggest attitude problem.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on December 04, 2017, 09:52:01 AM
I don't think the OP meant anything by saying "girl", don't give him/her such a hard time for something so benign.

That's like saying it's okay to be a little racist as long as you are just talking casually to your friends, but you keep it out of the workplace and act professionally there. The OP was talking about his boss. The word "girl" is not appropriate. Period. His follow up explanaition made it clear he was using "girl" specifically as a pejorative.

He's young. Getting some negative feedback on bad behaviour is doing him a favour.

There's a difference between casually mentioning it and derailing his thread.

I'm in the camp of those thinking that it would be incredibly petty of a manager to hold a grudge for this without mentioning anything and then passive-aggressively try to convey a message through a horrible raise. If she had a problem with that, she could have started by casually mentioning it and then having a stern conversation.

It's so far outside of the realm of reasonableness as to be pretty much impossible. And if it were true, the manager would be the one with the biggest attitude problem.

Hi YoungInvestor. Thanks for the support, but I think I have been thoroughly spanked here. I obviously wasn't thinking from a professional mindset when I wrote the comment and assumed that it was okay to speak casually here on an internet forum, but we do need to be careful with language in all situations - not just in a professional setting where people can hear. I have always considered girl to be the opposite of guy, but my own personal belief doesn't change societal context and using a word in a way that others don't understand derails the point of speaking in the first place. I would never say that in a professional setting (beyond a relaxed joke of who was "new"; I myself am the "old new") which means that I shouldn't say it at all.

I think my boss is excellent at what she does. I consider her a friend as well as a coworker. She is very professional and forthcoming and definitely my superior in both the org chart and experience and ability. I am upset that I said something that would diminish her at all. I'm not unaware of her shortcomings as I mentioned, but that is in a small yearly context vs her excellent day to day managing.

I will point out that I am a girl, unlike the general assumption.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on December 04, 2017, 02:59:08 PM
Impressed you have come back to update, hope the comments didn't come across as too harsh...I had this niggling idea that you might be female!

Anyway, now understand your point of view that girl is the opposite of guy. I have to ask where did you get the idea they were comparable? Is this taught, or a product of culture somewhere?

It reminds me of a work conversation the other day, when a colleague didn't realise how bad the situation in Saudi was, and was really shocked that adult women are literally second class citizens, and still need a male guardian.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: RidetheRain on December 04, 2017, 04:16:15 PM
Impressed you have come back to update, hope the comments didn't come across as too harsh...I had this niggling idea that you might be female!

Anyway, now understand your point of view that girl is the opposite of guy. I have to ask where did you get the idea they were comparable? Is this taught, or a product of culture somewhere?

It reminds me of a work conversation the other day, when a colleague didn't realise how bad the situation in Saudi was, and was really shocked that adult women are literally second class citizens, and still need a male guardian.

As someone pointed out, too many people are upset about it to be a quick disagreement of personality. I'm a little sad that people decided it was indicative of my character, but a poorly timed joke and the internet wall that hides intent can do that. I've been stressing over it for days because I've been worried that I'm a terrible person and that I've been hiding this awful bias. I'm afraid I took the comments a bit personally. I even went to confession over it. My priest thought I was nuts. But he was the one that suggested I post again with my self reflection.

As for the reasoning for using the word "girl": I guess I didn't really think about it. I'm used to people saying "Meet the guys and girls" and other phrases like that. I'm used to the two words really being honestly treated as the same level of respect. I said above that I wouldn't use the phrase in a professional setting - but I wouldn't say "guy" in a professional setting either. It's basically slang. That's the same reason I wouldn't use the word in relation to an older woman than myself, I generally don't use slang/informal language when speaking about elders - that's probably a "learned" thing. I'll be honest, while I'll stop using "girl" in respect to a female adult if only to keep from giving people the wrong impression, I do not understand the use of the word "gal." That word appeared in my vocabulary in my late teens. I had never heard the word prior to college and it still feels weird in my mouth. When I do hear it used, there's usually a wry tone of voice as if the person is almost laughing over the word. I'm not a fan of how that feels. I can only assume that this is how people feel when hearing the word "girl" and for that, I apologize.

I guess I was a little taken aback that people are so offended and I'm now reevaluating interactions with others when I've been called girl trying to figure out if I was being disrespected. I certainly didn't think so at the time. I consider myself a "girl" despite my age. It's an informal word to describe my gender - not my age or maturity or capability. I'm a little sad that the word has been taken from me since I consider it a way to describe my gender and therefore my identity as a person. I guess I just don't know what word to use otherwise "woman" is very formal for informal occasions, "lady" generally means someone much older, "gal" I just can't get used to, and "guy" really leans masculine which can be confusing.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: chasesfish on December 04, 2017, 04:34:06 PM
How's the lobbying for a raise or searching other opportunities going?

I find it awesome that you've self identified as a girl :)
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Cromacster on December 04, 2017, 04:36:25 PM
Hmm I guess I was right.  I assumed the Op was...dare I say...a girl.  I think others assumed you were a boy.

</end Jokes> 

I run in to the same issue, usually in discussions with my wife or friends.  "this girl at <insert location>".  I'm aware it's not the PC  thing to say (is that what this is? not sure).  But it feels weird or oddly formal to say "this woman at <insert location>".  To me it feels almost robotic.  I probably use chick as well, but I feel that some might find that worse than girl.  If I were referring to a guy, I would use guy or dude.  I wouldn't refer to him as "man"
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: lhamo on December 04, 2017, 05:13:01 PM
I assumed you were male.   Sorry.   I think it does read slightly differently if it is a female of roughly the same age calling someone a girl.   But I still think it is wise to avoid it in work-related contexts.

Here is a list of how I usually pair up the various iterations of heteronormative gender opposites (apologies to the non-binary out there -- I try to be respectful of preferences but my mind generates the binary most easily):

girls/boys
guys/gals
ladies/gentlemen
dudes/chicks
women/men
males/females
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: mm1970 on December 04, 2017, 05:27:42 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.

I don't think it's an asshole thing to say.

There's nothing wrong with the word "girl" when describing a female person roughly the same age as myself or younger. If she were a man I'd have said "the new guy" which wouldn't be offensive at all. I really don't see how using the female version of that phrase is suddenly wrong. It's also pretty shitty to assume anything about our professional relationship based on one word. It would be doing her a disservice to assume that she would act underhandedly to deny me a raise instead of talking to me.

The hello kitty joke was probably unnecessary since apparently, this wasn't a joke like I assumed.
I HAVE NOT BEEN A "GIRL" SINCE I TURNED 18.

IT'S A FUCKING ASSHOLE THING TO SAY TO A FEMALE ADULT.

The female version of "guy" is "guy" or "woman".


Also, go look for another job.  It took me a long time to come to this realization (but I'm still way underpaid).
It's not personal.  The company wants to get the best people they can for the least amount of money.  If you stay, they "win", so to speak.
You are your own best advocate.

In my experience, it's pretty rare to have a company be really good about giving raises and bonuses regularly.  It does happen.  Spouse works for one, a few friends also work for them.  For the most part, it's about the bottom line and you are just a number.

The only way that changes is if people start leaving.  Even then, some companies will "shrug" (not change their policies) and keep on keepin' on.  You may not help yourself, but you may help the people that come after you.

Especially at your age/ level.  I was managing young engineers for awhile.  My very first engineer was up for a raise year #1 and year #2, and got lowballed by my boss, who held the purse strings.  I asked my boss "how do you expect us to get him from where he is now, to $10-15k more than that, on 3-4% a year?  Because that's what an engineer with 2 years of experience is worth."  Answer: "Good question, I don't know."  In fact many companies just don't have a way to do that, unless you leave and get a counter-offer.  (For the record, two short months after that conversation and the crappy raise, my engineer left to get a job that paid $18k more.)
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2017, 05:38:54 PM
PS - don't call your boss a girl if she's over the age of 14.

She has a hello kitty doll on her desk and talks like she's a kindergarten teacher. For all I know she may be 14.

It doesn't matter.

That's an asshole thing to say.

I don't think it's an asshole thing to say.

There's nothing wrong with the word "girl" when describing a female person roughly the same age as myself or younger. If she were a man I'd have said "the new guy" which wouldn't be offensive at all. I really don't see how using the female version of that phrase is suddenly wrong. It's also pretty shitty to assume anything about our professional relationship based on one word. It would be doing her a disservice to assume that she would act underhandedly to deny me a raise instead of talking to me.

The hello kitty joke was probably unnecessary since apparently, this wasn't a joke like I assumed.
I HAVE NOT BEEN A "GIRL" SINCE I TURNED 18.

IT'S A FUCKING ASSHOLE THING TO SAY TO A FEMALE ADULT.

The female version of "guy" is "guy" or "woman".

You're loudly yelling at another female adult.

FYI.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on December 04, 2017, 06:42:27 PM
Hey OP,

It wasn't your initial "girl" comment that stirred up the hornets' nest.  It was your defense of it after the gentle correction that triggered all the responses.  (That and some comments about your boss).

We understand that many many people still use "girl" to describe grown women.   About 10 years ago, in my early 30's it started to get my hackles up, because I kept hearing it at work... "Let's give the girls present X for the office christmas gift"...  "It's ok, the girls can clean up the lunch meeting while we go out to the client meeting".  Honestly, far far too many women in their 60's were being called girls at work, because they had admin roles.  And there I was, the engineer that was supposed to go out to the client meeting..  was I a "girl" as well?  Was the admin person who did senior database work just a lower paid worker or a valued employee?

I think of it this way.   Lots of people use the term "Honey"  or even "Sweetheart / Sweetie", especially in Texas!  It is a default term so no one thinks about it, not intended to be disrespectful, but tending to be highly so when broadly applied to people you don't really know or in a business setting.

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Hey OP,

It wasn't your initial "girl" comment that stirred up the hornets' nest.  It was your defense of it after the gentle correction that triggered all the responses.  (That and some comments about your boss).

We understand that many many people still use "girl" to describe grown women.   About 10 years ago, in my early 30's it started to get my hackles up, because I kept hearing it at work... "Let's give the girls present X for the office christmas gift"...  "It's ok, the girls can clean up the lunch meeting while we go out to the client meeting".  Honestly, far far too many women in their 60's were being called girls at work, because they had admin roles.  And there I was, the engineer that was supposed to go out to the client meeting..  was I a "girl" as well?  Was the admin person who did senior database work just a lower paid worker or a valued employee?

I think of it this way.   Lots of people use the term "Honey"  or even "Sweetheart / Sweetie", especially in Texas!  It is a default term so no one thinks about it, not intended to be disrespectful, but tending to be highly so when broadly applied to people you don't really know or in a business setting.

I take issue with people claiming the blanket statement that "X term is offensive to all Y people, therefore you shouldn't use it" -- because they're then speaking on the behalf of every. other. person. in that group. In this case, the person saying "girl" was, in fact, also a woman.  Numerous people then jumped on the "well women don't like X" -- blissfully ignorant that the person they were calling out was one of those people who was allegedly offended.

Am I being pedantic? Perhaps. It does bother me, though, when a few people will speak on behalf of everyone in their particular group, despite others from that group saying that they do not find X offensive.

Language evolves over time - I may ask my linguist friend if the word "girl" may be evolving to be the equivalent of "guy" in modern language.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on December 04, 2017, 08:48:49 PM
JLee,

I believe I spoke from my personal opinion / point of view / frame of reference, used personal examples from my history in my post..  I have no idea why you think otherwise or why you take issue with me.

"I take issue with people claiming the blanket statement that "X term is offensive to all Y people, therefore you shouldn't use it".

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2017, 08:55:38 PM
JLee,

I believe I spoke from my personal opinion / point of view / frame of reference, used personal examples from my history in my post..  I have no idea why you think otherwise or why you take issue with me.

"I take issue with people claiming the blanket statement that "X term is offensive to all Y people, therefore you shouldn't use it".


I don't have an issue with you specifically. As I said "I take issue with people claiming the blanket statement [...]."

Examples from this thread alone:

That's an asshole thing to say.

But trust, women do not like to be called it referred to as girl

Firstly "girl" wtf - just dont.  Always try to default to showing respect.

Hell, this use of girl and setting masculine norms for a workplace culture needs to stop - I take it you are male?

I would be the one labelled unprofessional if I went around referring to them as boys--as you've been told your habit of calling women 'girls' is doing, despite your refusal to hear it.

The word "girl" is not appropriate. Period. His follow up explanaition made it clear he was using "girl" specifically as a pejorative.

He's young. Getting some negative feedback on bad behaviour is doing him a favour.

Quote from: mm1970
IT'S A FUCKING ASSHOLE THING TO SAY TO A FEMALE ADULT.


See my point?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on December 04, 2017, 08:58:36 PM
JLee,  I replied to you because you quoted my text as an example of what you take issue with. 
Perhaps it was just  your hitting "quote" too fast in your passion for this topic, instead of a generic "reply".
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: doneby35 on December 04, 2017, 08:59:21 PM
Is it just me or is everyone on this thread overreacting to the word "girl"?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2017, 09:00:38 PM
JLee,  I replied to you because you quoted my text as an example of what you take issue with. 
Perhaps it was just  your hitting "quote" too fast in your passion for this topic, instead of a generic "reply".

I quoted your post because it was on the topic I was discussing and I provided my personal viewpoint in response to yours.

I apologize if you find that offensive for some reason, but I do feel that my language was quite explicitly clear as to my intended meaning.  I'll be happy to remove the quote of your post if that would be preferable.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Man The Fire on December 04, 2017, 10:38:28 PM
Quote
Is it just me or is everyone on this thread overreacting to the word "girl"?

Yeah, many threads on these forums can be really off the deep end politically. At least everywhere I've lived the word "gal" is unacceptable like "y'all" or "ain't" and the correct term to use is girl unless you need to be extremely formal. Adult male humans are guys and adult female humans are girls. To find a way to be insulted by that is absolute insanity.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: dreams_and_discoveries on December 05, 2017, 12:16:16 AM
Quote
Is it just me or is everyone on this thread overreacting to the word "girl"?

Yeah, many threads on these forums can be really off the deep end politically. At least everywhere I've lived the word "gal" is unacceptable like "y'all" or "ain't" and the correct term to use is girl unless you need to be extremely formal. Adult male humans are guys and adult female humans are girls. To find a way to be insulted by that is absolute insanity.


See this intrigues me, 'cause where I am kids are boys/girls and adults are men/women.  Boys grow and mature into men, and girls to women. By differentiating between the sexes here, it seems to imply boys grow into guys, but girls remain girls??.  So in fact you are labelling male colleagues as mature and responsible, but implying female colleagues are child like.

If you really can't understand why using these words causes offence, I have to question your environment, and am imagining a saudi like world where women really are second class citizens, and have no rights.

Maybe we should all start a campaign to refer to males of all ages in workplace settings as boys and balance it out?? Or do we need a word for grown women, to pair with guys that also implies girls have grown and matured into gals/another new word of choice.

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: JLee on December 05, 2017, 12:30:30 AM
Quote
Is it just me or is everyone on this thread overreacting to the word "girl"?

Yeah, many threads on these forums can be really off the deep end politically. At least everywhere I've lived the word "gal" is unacceptable like "y'all" or "ain't" and the correct term to use is girl unless you need to be extremely formal. Adult male humans are guys and adult female humans are girls. To find a way to be insulted by that is absolute insanity.


See this intrigues me, 'cause where I am kids are boys/girls and adults are men/women.  Boys grow and mature into men, and girls to women. By differentiating between the sexes here, it seems to imply boys grow into guys, but girls remain girls??.  So in fact you are labelling male colleagues as mature and responsible, but implying female colleagues are child like.

If you really can't understand why using these words causes offence, I have to question your environment, and am imagining a saudi like world where women really are second class citizens, and have no rights.

Maybe we should all start a campaign to refer to males of all ages in workplace settings as boys and balance it out?? Or do we need a word for grown women, to pair with guys that also implies girls have grown and matured into gals/another new word of choice.

Perhaps words have different connotations across different regions and groups of people?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Goldielocks on December 05, 2017, 12:48:38 AM
Quote
Is it just me or is everyone on this thread overreacting to the word "girl"?

Yeah, many threads on these forums can be really off the deep end politically. At least everywhere I've lived the word "gal" is unacceptable like "y'all" or "ain't" and the correct term to use is girl unless you need to be extremely formal. Adult male humans are guys and adult female humans are girls. To find a way to be insulted by that is absolute insanity.


See this intrigues me, 'cause where I am kids are boys/girls and adults are men/women.  Boys grow and mature into men, and girls to women. By differentiating between the sexes here, it seems to imply boys grow into guys, but girls remain girls??.  So in fact you are labelling male colleagues as mature and responsible, but implying female colleagues are child like.

If you really can't understand why using these words causes offence, I have to question your environment, and am imagining a saudi like world where women really are second class citizens, and have no rights.

Maybe we should all start a campaign to refer to males of all ages in workplace settings as boys and balance it out?? Or do we need a word for grown women, to pair with guys that also implies girls have grown and matured into gals/another new word of choice.

Or perhaps across different regions and groups of people, words have different connotations.

I don't think that is the case...(especially for this specific word, I don't think that regionally people disagree on its basic definition)...   rather that under the weight of very commonplace regional usage, the meaning and impact of words and use of certain expressions is vastly reduced and does not register to most users.  It is an automatic usage, rather than a considered usage.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: doneby35 on December 05, 2017, 08:33:10 AM
Perhaps too many people just get offended so easily. None of the my friends, whether they are of the female or male gender, are offended because someone called them a girl or a boy instead of a man or a woman, that is just silly.
Also, if you called guys in the workplace boys they probably wouldn't care at all.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: AlanStache on December 05, 2017, 12:08:47 PM
Some people love to be all anti-PC until you hit on one of there nerves. 
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Zikoris on December 05, 2017, 12:40:19 PM
JFC add me to the list of women who do not give a shit if someone calls them a girl, and are stunned that anyone actually gives a shit enough to bother getting offended and/or caring.

I am so glad I don't have any delicate friends who get offended at the drop of a hat.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: mm1970 on December 05, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
JFC add me to the list of women who do not give a shit if someone calls them a girl, and are stunned that anyone actually gives a shit enough to bother getting offended and/or caring.

I am so glad I don't have any delicate friends who get offended at the drop of a hat.

I am not a "girl".  I am a 47 year old engineering project manager.

I am the only woman in my building.

I am often the only woman in the conference room.

Where I live, the term "girl" is offensive.

In my industry, it is used to show power, or to put down the "females" in the room, thus making the speaker look "better than".

If that's not been your experience...awesome for you. 

If I'm on vacation somewhere where "girl" is more common (the south?  Dunno) I wouldn't sweat it too much.  But at work?  Completely different story.  And if you are in a primarily female occupied job, it might be NBD either.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: doneby35 on December 05, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
JFC add me to the list of women who do not give a shit if someone calls them a girl, and are stunned that anyone actually gives a shit enough to bother getting offended and/or caring.

I am so glad I don't have any delicate friends who get offended at the drop of a hat.

I am not a "girl".  I am a 47 year old engineering project manager.

I am the only woman in my building.

I am often the only woman in the conference room.

Where I live, the term "girl" is offensive.


Where do you live? California? :P The term "girl" is NOT offensive.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Meesh on December 05, 2017, 01:42:43 PM
so getting back to the original thread...

I agree with the people who said that if they truly valued an employee and are considered a "superstar" they would go out of their way to make sure you didn't get offended and leave. This would not only be shown through raises, promotions and bonuses but also in how they treat you. Managers that encourage you to take vacations or limit your work load because they think you do too much are trying to make sure you don't burn out and quit. The last think they want a great employee that saves them massive money for them is jump ship.

If you really are going well, good reviews etc and you are constantly improving your skills in your field then and you are not being taken seriously then its time to look around for new jobs. Take a good look online and find out your fields salary range and where you sit on it. Update your resume and start applying, ask crazy high since you already have a job and you aren't desperate. You also can afford to take your time finding the right position. This all works in your favor.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: AlanStache on December 05, 2017, 01:54:33 PM

I am not a "girl".  I am a 47 year old engineering project manager.

I am the only woman in my building.

I am often the only woman in the conference room.

Where I live, the term "girl" is offensive.

In my industry, it is used to show power, or to put down the "females" in the room, thus making the speaker look "better than".

If that's not been your experience...awesome for you. 

If I'm on vacation somewhere where "girl" is more common (the south?  Dunno) I wouldn't sweat it too much.  But at work?  Completely different story.  And if you are in a primarily female occupied job, it might be NBD either.


Where do you live? California? :P The term "girl" is NOT offensive.

and
"See this intrigues me, 'cause where I am kids are boys/girls and adults are men/women.  Boys grow and mature into men, and girls to women. By differentiating between the sexes here, it seems to imply boys grow into guys, but girls remain girls??.  So in fact you are labelling male colleagues as mature and responsible, but implying female colleagues are child like. "

Given the two above I dont see how "girl" in anywhere near a professional setting could not be offensive.

doneby35 - help me understand your position.  You quoted mm's post so how does it not compute for you? Do you think there needs to be intend to be offensive, where a term used just out of habit should be fine?  Do you see how a woman (especially) in a male dominated industry would not want to be referred to by a child title?  Help me understand your point of view.

Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: Spiffsome on December 07, 2017, 08:41:41 AM
Another adult female professional checking in here. In my profession (law in Australia) it is generally not acceptable to refer to your female colleagues as girls. Some of the very old male lawyers still do it, but it marks them as dinosaurs. Some of the younger male lawyers refer to their female administrative assistants as girls, and it marks them as assholes. None of the female lawyers refer to themselves as girls, though some of the administrative staff do.

It's offensive because it's a diminutive being used in an environment where women have fought hard to be considered equals. It's a term applied to a child, and the word 'girl' has a long history of being used to dismiss women as childlike, irrational and inferior. There's probably a comparison to be made to the history of referring to African-American men as 'boys' in the States, which is also offensive.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: mm1970 on December 07, 2017, 10:26:10 AM
JFC add me to the list of women who do not give a shit if someone calls them a girl, and are stunned that anyone actually gives a shit enough to bother getting offended and/or caring.

I am so glad I don't have any delicate friends who get offended at the drop of a hat.

I am not a "girl".  I am a 47 year old engineering project manager.

I am the only woman in my building.

I am often the only woman in the conference room.

Where I live, the term "girl" is offensive.


Where do you live? California? :P The term "girl" is NOT offensive.
Yes, I do.

And yes, it is offensive in a work place setting. Nobody refers to my male coworkers (engineers, managers, PhDs, directors, VPs) as "boys".
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: MayDay on December 07, 2017, 10:53:21 AM
I cannot fucking believe people don't know it's offensive and are digging in on it being ok.

I just.

Can't. 
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: trollwithamustache on December 07, 2017, 10:59:15 AM
You guys are Ra-dickulous.

OP asked for some advice. OP was a bit casual with language. Maybe OP is too casual in relationship/thinking/dealing with her boss. It is something to think about how one handles oneself at work.

Is this case of the underpaid millennial really the biggest problem in American sexism?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: TheAnonOne on December 07, 2017, 11:03:12 AM
I will be on topic

I have 0 attachment to any organization. I would walk exactly when you can, at all times.

Hell, you should be applying and interviewing EVERY FEW MONTHS (less frequent as time passes), even if you like your job. At least for me, this has resulted in becoming one of the higher paid people in my entire industry a short 3-4 years out of college and now 5 years later, even higher.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: WonderfulLife43 on December 07, 2017, 12:01:11 PM
In my experience:

* The best raises happen when you switch jobs.
* The best time to find a new job is while you still have a job.

So, update the resume, and look for other opportunities.  Good luck !
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: doneby35 on December 07, 2017, 12:46:06 PM
Everyone on this thread whining about the term "girl" being offensive is out of their minds. And that's coming from my wife.

For the OP, I know that this is not the focus of your topic, and you didn't say anything in an offensive way, yet somehow your use of the term "girl" turned into the focus, but please do not listen to the nonsense. Any sane person, whether it's a GIRL or a guy, when reading what you posted and specifically "My last boss was very willing to go to bat for his people, but the new girl is a little more placating and non-confrontational" will not turn into a dramatic social justice warrior and start complaining about it.

Just because some silly people think it's offensive and a bunch of other silly people agree with them, doesn't mean the entire world needs to agree and provide everyone with a safe space where feelings don't get hurt.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: chasesfish on December 07, 2017, 05:34:02 PM
Does anyone else just wonder if the original poster went and fought for that raise?
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: damyst on December 09, 2017, 12:28:48 AM
In my experience:

* The best raises happen when you switch jobs.
* The best time to find a new job is while you still have a job.


Yes and yes.
As a corollary, waiting to look for a new job until you're discharged of your current one can be a very expensive decision.

Established employers that know what they're doing should be raising your salary by a few percentage points every year even if you don't lift a finger to make it happen. If your company can't even do that, you should GTFO.
With smaller employers it can be a free-for-all. But here too, if the organization can't afford even a small raise, it means their situation is very precarious, and you should probably make your exit at the earliest opportunity.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: damyst on December 09, 2017, 12:32:28 AM
Everyone on this thread whining about the term "girl" being offensive is out of their minds. And that's coming from my wife.

For the OP, I know that this is not the focus of your topic, and you didn't say anything in an offensive way, yet somehow your use of the term "girl" turned into the focus, but please do not listen to the nonsense. Any sane person, whether it's a GIRL or a guy, when reading what you posted and specifically "My last boss was very willing to go to bat for his people, but the new girl is a little more placating and non-confrontational" will not turn into a dramatic social justice warrior and start complaining about it.

Just because some silly people think it's offensive and a bunch of other silly people agree with them, doesn't mean the entire world needs to agree and provide everyone with a safe space where feelings don't get hurt.

LOL.
"A whole bunch of people here disagree with my viewpoint. Clearly, they are all insane."
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: FIRE_Buckeye on December 09, 2017, 07:12:53 PM
Nice derailing a thread for well over a page y'all, all over some loose language.
Pretty sure you've made your views on the term clear, and can move on.

OP, as others have said, clearly its time to start looking around (while making sure to not let your current performance slip much, if at all).
If your current employer doesn't appreciate your contributions enough to compensate you appropriately, there are many out there who gladly will.
Title: Re: Should I Be Pissed Off? (Annual Raises)
Post by: LeRainDrop on December 09, 2017, 08:47:11 PM
RidetheRain, if I were in your shoes, I would be pretty upset about the lack of a raise and the pittance of a bonus.  You've been there for four years, got the highest performance rating possible under their system, and this is what you get as a reward?  I'm sorry, but they should be showing better appreciation for your efforts and dedication than just their words.  You're in a prime spot for jumping ship to another employer -- you have enough experience to no longer be considered a newbie, you have a track record of loyalty and not job-hopping, and you hopefully can work a positive reference if you have a former manager you trust to confidentially vouch for you with prospective employers.  Even if they reevaluate your compensation in a year, they will not ever make up for holding you back this year.

In my opinion, you should start active job-searching now with hopes to make a move in the next few months.  Make sure you use the lateral move to give you a big salary bump -- changing companies is statistically the best opportunity for that to happen.  I highly recommend you start consulting the Ask A Manager website, written by Alison Green, for job-related advice.  For example: