The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: EconDiva on November 05, 2015, 12:12:58 PM
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I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine the other day about finances and other random things but during the course of the conversation he mentioned to me that 'should' he decide to start dating online soon, he will be sure to mention in his profile that the woman needs to make a certain amount of money. He said she needs to be at least at $70k because his plan for the future is to save/invest her income and live off of his, and with his financial goals for his future family he needs to know his partner will have the kind of income to support those goals.
I didn't really feel any sort of way about it...thoughts?
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A friend of mine put high income requirements on her online dating filters, and I felt decidedly negative about it. I said to her, what's better a guy that earns $40K and spends $20K each year, or a guy that earns $150K and spends $155K a year?! It isn't the income that supports investing goals like his, but spending habits, IMO. Her response was something like "true, but..." IDK, she just acknowledged my point, but didn't think much of it.
So, yeah, this move annoys me for sure. She says it is because she wants someone who can take care of himself, but the logic doesn't follow. Also, I felt it was really stupid of her to exclude someone that would be a great partner based on salary. If she applied the same rules to her friends, I wouldn't be one of them. If I applied the same rule to my spouse, who is an amazing partner for me, he wouldn't have made the cut. Lame idea, IMO.
She actually may have changed it. She was dating a guy that was FI, but too frugal for her tastes. They started dating prior to him leaving his job as a lawyer, so his six figure income made the cut off. Then he quit working, and didn't have the money to wine and dine her like she wanted him to. Her new guy makes considerably less, but is kind of a minimalist and isn't really spendy. And they get along way better than her last beau.
I would caution your friend that he might be filtering out a potential great love by setting income requirements.
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Hmmm.
I suspect that posting this in his profile will weed out a lot of prospects. Not just because lower income ladies will be excluded, but also because a lot of those who would qualify will pass by that profile and think "gold digger".
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At least he's being upfront about it?
Some might be turned off by a potential partner who's unemployed . . . or even by one who's in a minimum wage job . . . but some point on the job/career/income scale comes "acceptable" for dating material, right? (For the purposes of this discussion, we'll leave out those who have already achieved FIRE status.)
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I have a few not-so-nice thoughts, but that wouldn't be constructive. The kindest way I can state my opinion is by saying that I don't think his approach is going to provide the outcome he wants. Financial compatibility is extremely important, but that's not what he's asking for. What if he finds someone who meets his $70k requirement but spends it all? Or tells him to go *blank* himself when he tries to requisition her earned money for his savings goals? What if she marries him but then gets sick and can't work? Wants to be a SAHP? Would he divorce her if she suddenly dipped below that $70K? What if she agrees to his financial plan but doesn't agree with his goals for the money?
So many more what ifs...but you get the gist.
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He shouldn't post it on his profile. He should weed the folks out after he meets them. I had an income requirement when I was single. I work hard and I save as much as possible. I wanted something similar in a mate. The idea that they may have a $200k salary and spend $225k would also weed them out in my mind.
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I do make significantly more than $70k, and I think the general idea of living off of one income and saving the other is an excellent idea. I also think it's very important to avoid dating financially irresponsible people and to find someone who is compatible with you in terms of your approach to finances.
But if I saw his profile, I would be incredibly turned off.
I think I don't like it because it indicates an inflexible and kind of controlling mindset. He has already made a bunch of very specific decisions about his future life will be, and imagined a very specific person in his head, and is now trying to order the model he wants from the internets. It's not treating potential partners as autonomous people who will have their own opinions. It's trying to shoehorn a living breathing person into his life he's designed independently, instead of cooperatively building a life together.
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He's limiting himself.
DW was a broke college student living with her parents when we met. Now that she has an advanced academic degree, she's making a whopping $40K, and is unlikely to ever make much more because she has no desire whatsoever to go into management or administration. All the same, when it comes to money, she was the best thing that has ever happened to me. She lives within her means, and has helped shame I mean encourage me into doing so myself. She's seen hardship so she saves instinctively, which means she always has money to invest now that I've taught her how. She supports me like nobody I've ever known or been with. In sum total, she's everything I could hope for in a partner for pursuing the FIRE dream.
When DW finished grad school, I was emphatic about not running out to get the first shit job that presented itself, even though she was ready to do so as part of the team. I wanted her to do her degree justice, and I wanted her to be happy in the long run. I figured the money would come. Given a few months to look for better options, she still ended up waiting tables just to make sure she'd bring something home. Soon after, she was a full-blown professional with a title and business cards. Most importantly, all the way along, we both treated each other with trust and respect, and both did our part for the household. And now we're getting rich together. If I'd been hung up on numbers, we'd have missed out on all of this.
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I think I don't like it because it indicates an inflexible and kind of controlling mindset. He has already made a bunch of very specific decisions about his future life will be, and imagined a very specific person in his head, and is now trying to order the model he wants from the internets. It's not treating potential partners as autonomous people who will have their own opinions. It's trying to shoehorn a living breathing person into his life he's designed independently, instead of cooperatively building a life together.
Yeah, this.
One's "must haves" need to be a short list and absolutely critical. Mine are: decent, responsible human being who loves me and will stand by me and our family even when times are tough. Human beings are not custom-ordered from a factory; you will not get every thing you could possibly want in one person. "Must earn at least $70k pa" seems ridiculously shallow.
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Hey, I have a $100K + salary. Men can be goldiggers too. I'm not looking for a man that I have to support financially. He should be able to pull his own weight. He doesn't have to make what I do, but have a good job.
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I don't like the phrasing of that at all and I would definitely pass on that; and I make well over that amount.
I'd prefer someone looking for an "independent" person or "settled into their career" or "stable job" or something along those lines. Or just state in the profile that the person is thrifty and would love to live off of one salary and save the second. I think an intelligent, financially oriented person would be able to read between the lines.
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If my wife made $70k, I'd quit my job ;).
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If my wife made $70k, I'd quit my job ;).
Seriously, if DW had stuck to her initial claim that she was gonna work FT indefinitely, I was close to incorporating her into my FIRE plan. But after a whole year in the grind, she realizes it's probably not gonna stay fun like it was, and she wants the flexibility of a phased withdrawal too.
Back to stashing I go ;)
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If my wife made $70k, I'd quit my job ;).
When I was earning at least that I did offer my DH (numerous times) the option to be a SAHP once we had kids. He declined, but the opportunity was there. :)
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Lol, as a male mustachian I applaud his thoughts. I would feel differently if it was "I need her to make as much as me so she can spend her own money" but he is saying "I need her to make 70k so that we can save it." He is not being selfish or greedy, he has goals and that is great. Now, do I think including this on an online profile is a smart move for finding a mate? No, but having high standards isn't a bad thing.
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1. People lie about age and income on-line.
2. Even then, the criterion is too limiting. There are certain compatibilities that need to be discovered over time (it's called dating).
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If she applied the same rules to her friends, I wouldn't be one of them.
Well to be fair, she doesn't have joint finances with friends. She doesn't have to buy a house with friends. A partner's financial situation matters a lot more to one's life.
I'd prefer someone looking for an "independent" person or "settled into their career" or "stable job" or something along those lines. Or just state in the profile that the person is thrifty and would love to live off of one salary and save the second. I think an intelligent, financially oriented person would be able to read between the lines.
I agree. I think the wording could be more effective, and those are probably more descriptive of what he's actually looking for.
I mean, I think it's a shame that looking for a partner with a certain income gets labeled as gold-digging, because some people want a certain lifestyle and income might be an easy way to define it. Similarly, a lot of people want to be part of a "power couple" like a doctor and a lawyer, or something. They want to live in a high-class suburb and send the kids to private school. It's fine for people to want whatever they want. There's no magic of "compatibility" that triumphs over absolutely all disparate goals. People who want to be overseas missionaries put that in their profile, nevermind that it might put some people off.
Obviously there's the danger of trying to "shoehorn" potential partners into a role, as someone else mentioned, but that's an extreme version where someone has a lot of specifications and for some reason with certain specifications (income, hair color, etc.), we react as though we're assuming it's an extreme version when there may be no evidence of that.
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Lol, as a male mustachian I applaud his thoughts. I would feel differently if it was "I need her to make as much as me so she can spend her own money" but he is saying "I need her to make 70k so that we can save it." He is not being selfish or greedy, he has goals and that is great. Now, do I think including this on an online profile is a smart move for finding a mate? No, but having high standards isn't a bad thing.
Yeah, there are worse reasons for doing it, but it still comes off as douchey.
I'd so much rather see someone say they prefer an equal partnership based on trust, mutual respect, hard work, and living below your means. Within a normal lifetime, partners go in and out of school, people take unpaid internships that lead to high salaries, etc.
Even considering what he's trying to accomplish, this will chase off a significant percentage of legitimate prospects.
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Lol, as a male mustachian I applaud his thoughts. I would feel differently if it was "I need her to make as much as me so she can spend her own money" but he is saying "I need her to make 70k so that we can save it." He is not being selfish or greedy, he has goals and that is great. Now, do I think including this on an online profile is a smart move for finding a mate? No, but having high standards isn't a bad thing.
I think the problem is that currently, those goals are for *someone else's money.* Sure, after they establish a relationship they may eventually adjust to a "what's mine is ours" mentality, but part of my negative reaction would be because he appears to already have plans for my entire income. The fact that they are worthy or non-greedy plans is irrelevant at that point. It feels like an incredible overreach into someone else's life, at a time when he has no standing to have that kind of opinion.
He will get MUCH farther by saying he wants a partner who is a hard worker, has a frugal lifestyle, and is interested in FIRE. Because those are positive traits, people who fit them will feel good about themselves and excited about meeting him when they read it. "Must make $70k so I can bank that much every year while I support you on my income" will make them feel like just a tool to be used for someone else's life plan.
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He might miss the love of his life who is already FIREd and living on a fixed income with a HUGE stash that she can SHARE... I'm just sayin!
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A frugal teacher or librarian would be a better fit for his FIRE goals than someone with a large salary who is used to blowing it all on handbags and iPhones. Sure, if he could find a lady lawyer driving a 2004 Civic, he'd be all set, but I agree that he is both limiting himself unnecessarily AND making himself sound like an ass.
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Lol, as a male mustachian I applaud his thoughts. I would feel differently if it was "I need her to make as much as me so she can spend her own money" but he is saying "I need her to make 70k so that we can save it." He is not being selfish or greedy, he has goals and that is great. Now, do I think including this on an online profile is a smart move for finding a mate? No, but having high standards isn't a bad thing.
I think the problem is that currently, those goals are for *someone else's money.* Sure, after they establish a relationship they may eventually adjust to a "what's mine is ours" mentality, but part of my negative reaction would be because he appears to already have plans for my entire income. The fact that they are worthy or non-greedy plans is irrelevant at that point. It feels like an incredible overreach into someone else's life, at a time when he has no standing to have that kind of opinion.
He will get MUCH farther by saying he wants a partner who is a hard worker, has a frugal lifestyle, and is interested in FIRE. Because those are positive traits, people who fit them will feel good about themselves and excited about meeting him when they read it. "Must make $70k so I can bank that much every year while I support you on my income" will make them feel like just a tool to be used for someone else's life plan.
I think you hit the nail on the head. He is superimposing his values on another person. That person may be frugal but choose to use some/all of their money for donating, study, supporting family, travelling, or other ways that they value.
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First reaction: This guy's a jerk and only cares about money.
Second reaction: No, he's frugal and wants to find a spouse who operates in the same way.
However, the way he's saying this is a BIG turn-off, and I don't think he'd find even one woman who would react positively to it. He'd be better off to say that he is frugal and wants to meet women who are also aggressive savers interested in making early retirement a priority. After all, that's the bottom line -- the number only determines how fast he can accomplish this goal.
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lol, he will need to anticipate a lot of 30+ year olds if that is the case. Not that that is a bad thing, but how many 25 year olds actually make 70k.
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If the dude hasn't figured out that it's not about how much you make, it's about how much you keep, he's not Mustachean material and I would reject him.
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This person sounds annoyingly one-dimensional. I think it's perfectly reasonable to hope to find someone with similar values about money with respect to saving, spending, and investing. And I think it's even reasonable -- although not necessary -- to be with a partner who could make a "living wage" independently. People define that differently, but I even think of lower paying professions (teaching, human services) as being "living wages" if people can bring home some benefits. Others may agree that as a unit they can accomplish more if one person manages the home and finances and doesn't work outside the home.
But perhaps what bothers me the most about this is that he's talking about "HIS" goals. For a partnership to be successful goals have to be shared. And there are usually a few different ways to a goal. Maybe he'll find his match and maybe he'll be completely up front. But what happens if Mr. 70K gets derailed or his partner does through layoffs, health, whatever? If you're serving money all the time and not the other aspects of your life it can be pretty bleak.
When my brother-in-law married my sister-in-law it was his second marriage. And while I'll never really know his first wife or what happened, he complained a lot that he "worked" and she didn't. (Yeah buddy, she was only at home raising your four kids and doing daycare on the side to pay some bills.) I would say that "Mr 70K" and my brother-in-law are probably alike in some ways.
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If the dude hasn't figured out that it's not about how much you make, it's about how much you keep, he's not Mustachean material and I would reject him.
This.
And if I'm doing some financial screening, give me the 700 credit score 40k over the 400 credit score 70k any day. You ain't changing nobody so its great to be with someone who has their financial priorities in order, the money follows.
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I do make significantly more than $70k, and I think the general idea of living off of one income and saving the other is an excellent idea. I also think it's very important to avoid dating financially irresponsible people and to find someone who is compatible with you in terms of your approach to finances.
But if I saw his profile, I would be incredibly turned off.
I think I don't like it because it indicates an inflexible and kind of controlling mindset. He has already made a bunch of very specific decisions about his future life will be, and imagined a very specific person in his head, and is now trying to order the model he wants from the internets. It's not treating potential partners as autonomous people who will have their own opinions. It's trying to shoehorn a living breathing person into his life he's designed independently, instead of cooperatively building a life together.
This is my issue exactly! This was also my number one problem back when I was still single.
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I say its great that he has standards and goals, but they probably shouldn't be listed like that in his profile. Perhaps worded differently it wouldn't be as bad, but a flat out salary limit is pretty silly.
He could really limit himself out of a lovely frugal lady who could make his 70k and her 40k go a lot further than two 70k salaries.
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I do make significantly more than $70k, and I think the general idea of living off of one income and saving the other is an excellent idea. I also think it's very important to avoid dating financially irresponsible people and to find someone who is compatible with you in terms of your approach to finances.
But if I saw his profile, I would be incredibly turned off.
I think I don't like it because it indicates an inflexible and kind of controlling mindset. He has already made a bunch of very specific decisions about his future life will be, and imagined a very specific person in his head, and is now trying to order the model he wants from the internets. It's not treating potential partners as autonomous people who will have their own opinions. It's trying to shoehorn a living breathing person into his life he's designed independently, instead of cooperatively building a life together.
Extremely well said.
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If my wife made $70k, I'd quit my job ;).
When I was earning at least that I did offer my DH (numerous times) the option to be a SAHP once we had kids. He declined, but the opportunity was there. :)
I just want the opportunity to play golf every day instead of sitting in my office.
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I say its great that he has standards and goals, but they probably shouldn't be listed like that in his profile. Perhaps worded differently it wouldn't be as bad, but a flat out salary limit is pretty silly.
He could really limit himself out of a lovely frugal lady who could make his 70k and her 40k go a lot further than two 70k salaries.
Just as any FYI he makes more than 70K.
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I have no beef with it. The dude is being honest and upfront about what he is looking for.
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I don't begrudge anyone who establishes up front what they are looking for on their profiles.
However, once you start throwing in requirements that dramatically shrink the pool of prospective mates, you have to ask yourself just how valuable those requirements are. In the case of income, not only are you eliminating a bunch of people by setting that $70,000 / yr threshold (IIRC, something like 80% of people in the US make less than that), but you are also probably offending and / or pissing off some portion of those who *do* make that much.
I should also point out that this requirement would eliminate anyone currently making little to nothing but with potential to earn a lot down the road (such as people in med school).
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I like a man with a financial plan.
But at the same time, something rubs me the wrong way about it. Geez, we haven't even met yet, and he's already planning our financial life together!
He could really limit himself out of a lovely frugal lady who could make his 70k and her 40k go a lot further than two 70k salaries.
I also agree with Kroaler. A lot of people who make $70k spend $70k (or more!) each year. What's the point of a salary cutoff when really what you want is someone who's a saver?
The truth is that most people who have salary cutoffs for potential mates have them because they want to live a lofty lifestyle. Very few people are looking for high-earning spouses because they want to save all their money! I think putting the salary cutoff in there probably would attract the wrong sort of women for his plan.
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I have no beef with it. The dude is being honest and upfront about what he is looking for.
And what we're saying is, his approach makes it unlikely that he'll find what he's looking for.
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Eh! Everybody has expectations, it's just that some are more acceptable to state than others. My husband and I met online. We both FILTERED for income requirements (as well as age, prior marriages, children, education, race, religion, etc.), but we didn't state those requirements in our profiles. It worked out great for us!
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As a man, if a woman has an income requirement on her profile I'm going to assume she is a gold digger. I'm assuming most people (men and women) would see it the same way.
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What's the issue? Most (all?) online dating sites have all sorts of criteria you can put into your filters... height, body type, education level, income, etc. Some may seem shallow, but isn't it best to be completely honest? Doesn't online dating solve that issue?
Say you meet someone on a blind date, and you aren't attracted to them, should you apologize and force yourself to pretend anyway? Of course not! Now obviously income may not be a deciding factor for everyone... but money issues are a big contributor to spousal relationships, so is it not logical he would state his preferences on that front?
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Say you meet someone on a blind date, and you aren't attracted to them, should you apologize and force yourself to pretend anyway? Of course not! Now obviously income may not be a deciding factor for everyone... but money issues are a big contributor to spousal relationships, so is it not logical he would state his preferences on that front?
Yes, he has a right to his preferences, but like most things it's the delivery that matters. To extend your example, if you're on a blind date and find out the date is unattractive, you're not obligated to continue seeing the woman but you you react is a pretty clear indication of what type of person you are. If you're obnoxious about it and call it out and walk out on the date, then you're an asshole. If you have a civil meal and end it there (even if you let him/her know gently that there probably won't be a second date), you're in the clear.
End result is the same in both cases, but there is finesse to how you approach a social situation. In his case, he should just filter by income, rather than obnoxiously calling it out in his profile.
In both of the above scenarios, taking the wrong approach makes him less attractive even to those who fit his criteria. Who wants to date a guy who doesn't know how to behave himself socially?
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Perhaps saying "must be economically, self sufficient" would weed out the jobless, talentless, and overspending rabble without sounding to harsh.
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He is looking for someone who thinks like him. Everybody does that.
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Hey, we all have our deal breakers. However..
You know the crazy/hot scale for women? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN_sSXKbzHk
It's the picky/hot scale for men. He wants to be picky about potential female partners, no problem, but he better be pretty high on the hot scale and bring some things to the table too. Luckily women usually don't restrict "hot" ratings to physical attributes only. Although, being a muscled Adonis sure helps.
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When I did online dating, I didn't include my salary or a salary requirement in the profile. I wanted a partner who was economically self-sufficient and shared my fiscal viewpoint.
That means I also needed to be self-sufficient. It isn't fair to say that my plans depend on $X contribution from someone else. What if that person gets sick and can't work?
I had my retirement savings journey mapped out. Then I got married - an auto tech who made a flat $32k per year with no benefits. He is very mustachian. I had to convince him that a) it was okay to marry a woman who makes more than 3x your salary and b) I could become more frugal. We saved his whole salary and more of mine than I had been saving previously.
Now my retirement savings journey is a lot shorter! That's a bonus. The real prize is the man.
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Where's my update?
What kinda response has your friend gotten, OPm and how happy has putting that line into the profile made him?
(curious)
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lol, he will need to anticipate a lot of 30+ year olds if that is the case. Not that that is a bad thing, but how many 25 year olds actually make 70k.
Enough, and I know quite a few of them... I myself make quite a bit more than that and am exactly 25.
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Depends on where you live. $70k is a great salary in my neck of the woods. Very few 25 year-olds make $70k here.
In NYC, probably a ton.
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I would like to hear more ways to describe our views on a profile. Some of them are decent but would send most people running for the hills without thinking about the true picture...but I guess some of us want that to happen to weed out the spenders lol.
Since I'm already FIRE'd it would be nice to meet someone who makes a living wage and somewhat frugal. She can save all her money so she can join me after she's FI. I already have enough for a future SO but my requirement is that she needs to have skin in the game. One would think that this would be easy to find but most of the people I meet don't have a clue when it comes to finances or they think I'm broke...lol.
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Op, I think that your friend lacks creativity and he is unmotivating. There are ways to filter other than being a direct ass. For instance, he could say this instead:
I am seeking someone that is successful and financially independent. I'd like to think that my partner will be interested in sharing and meeting financial goals with me.
He might also like a freak in the sack, but instead of asking for that he might say "I'm interested in meeting a lady that enjoys life, is creative and passionate in everything that she does."
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I had a friend that would only date men that earned at least 100k a year. This was 1998 at the time. She explained to me that her dad passed away when she was young (9). Her mom and her had always struggled financially. She felt like it would prevent her from struggling should something happen later down the road. She was firm on requirement. Of course, she didn't really consider he could earn 100k a year and send it all and then some. She 31 at the time. She make over 100k. At the time I only made 28k. 100k seemed like a fortune.
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I had a friend that would only date men that earned at least 100k a year. This was 1998 at the time. She explained to me that her dad passed away when she was young (9). Her mom and her had always struggled financially. She felt like it would prevent her from struggling should something happen later down the road. She was firm on requirement. Of course, she didn't really consider he could earn 100k a year and send it all and then some. She 31 at the time. She make over 100k. At the time I only made 28k. 100k seemed like a fortune.
$100k in '98 is $145k in today's dollars. It's certainly not small!
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I would like to hear more ways to describe our views on a profile. Some of them are decent but would send most people running for the hills without thinking about the true picture...but I guess some of us want that to happen to weed out the spenders lol.
Since I'm already FIRE'd it would be nice to meet someone who makes a living wage and somewhat frugal. She can save all her money so she can join me after she's FI. I already have enough for a future SO but my requirement is that she needs to have skin in the game. One would think that this would be easy to find but most of the people I meet don't have a clue when it comes to finances or they think I'm broke...lol.
Well, a quick way to turn off many independent women is to use words like "she can do X" (as in, you are deigning to allow her to do that) or "my requirement is that she needs to Y." Not just on your dating profile; excise those entirely from your vocabulary and to the extent possible, your brain. Women you might meet are real people with their own money, dreams, values, and retirement plans. They do not want to be squashed into a pre-designed plan.
The best way to find who you are looking for is to describe YOURSELF and your values, and then say that you are looking for someone who shares those values. Not "fits," not "accepts," not "will adopt," but SHARES. Because you're looking for someone to share your life with, not boss around. You are not ordering a person to your specifications. You are explaining what your life and personality is like, which lets people self-select whether they are interested and want to hear more, or whether that isn't a good fit for them and they will move on.
I realize that I am nit-picking your language use a bit here, which may not be at all an accurate picture of what you intended to convey. But you will convey that meaning to strangers on the internet, who will click right past your profile, or women on first dates, who will politely turn you down for a second one.
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There seems to be a lot of nitpicking on this forum over verbiage. I feel like the spirit of his comment was pretty obvious to me. He was not suggesting that he wants to find a woman to "give permission" to join him on his journey, he's just looking for a match who is on the same path and shares his goals. Honestly, any woman who would blast me over using natural verbiage is not the right match for me, and that's completely okay. To me, that is finding flaws over minor details, and if you do it over one thing, you might do it over other minor things too. We all have our different opinion over what is 'minor'.
I feel like if one is too inflexible regarding your potential match's finances (or many non-financial traits), you risk that your eventual early retirement might be a solo one. As long as you're okay with that, then that's fine, remain as picky as possible. If not, I'd suggest being more open-minded. If I was in the financial spot where it was irrelevant how much my match made/already had, then I would maybe focus on the other traits I'm looking for, like kindness, sense of humor, shared hobbies.
I don't think it's wise to automatically disqualify someone over numbers. If my 'perfect match' has a bunch of student loan debt because she incurred it for a high paying career, that's no big deal. Indeed, one of the women I have dated in the past was in medical school. She not only had student loans ,but also credit card debt. I don't know the specific numbers, but I know she works in her down time for extra cash to support her struggling parents. I know that she had barely enough free time to see each other more than every now and then. I could never fault this woman over her financial decisions, indeed she is one of the kindest most down-to-earth people you will ever meet. She would no doubt out-earn me and also be debt-free eventually, but for me to wait until she has her financial shit together before showing interest in her, or to rule her out because of her predicament would seem a bit shallow.
Or maybe on the flip side, I could have a match who is also debt free like me, but is content making a smaller income doing something she loves that is far less time intensive than a traditional career, which means she might have more time for shared hobbies etc. I'd have to see some pretty bad numbers and/or behavioral habits to disqualify someone over numbers alone. The reality is that we usually disqualify people well before we ever see their numbers, so I'm not sure that it makes sense to blatantly state that we're looking for a specific number unless we're content to hold out for the unicorn and are happy alone.
TL;DR - Judging people over income or debt without knowing the context seems to be needlessly picky from my foxhole.
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Sure, I acknowledged that it was nitpicking, but I also think that small word choices can contribute to an overall tone, and that can make a big difference in terms of online profile success. And, DollarBill specifically asked for input about what kind of language will work best - I wasn't just giving unsolicited advice. My overall point is that it's best not to describe who you want to date, because to women on the other side, it feels a little icky, even if she actually fits the description. It's better to describe yourself, and then say you're interested in getting to know people who share your values. And, it's better to do that in broad, general terms, because like you said, it's important to be flexible and compromising on the details. He who wants to control every aspect of his life will end up living it alone.
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Sure, I acknowledged that it was nitpicking, but I also think that small word choices can contribute to an overall tone, and that can make a big difference in terms of online profile success. And, DollarBill specifically asked for input about what kind of language will work best - I wasn't just giving unsolicited advice. My overall point is that it's best not to describe who you want to date, because to women on the other side, it feels a little icky, even if she actually fits the description. It's better to describe yourself, and then say you're interested in getting to know people who share your values. And, it's better to do that in broad, general terms, because like you said, it's important to be flexible and compromising on the details. He who wants to control every aspect of his life will end up living it alone.
Fair enough. In DollarBills case, I would question why he would have an income requirement for a match when he also states that he's already FIRE and can support a significant other. In that case, i would perhaps be careful and protective of who I let see my wealth, but if anything, I would feel even more confident that the earning potential of my match is irrelevant, barring incompatible consumer spending habits.
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I would like to hear more ways to describe our views on a profile. Some of them are decent but would send most people running for the hills without thinking about the true picture...but I guess some of us want that to happen to weed out the spenders lol.
Since I'm already FIRE'd it would be nice to meet someone who makes a living wage and somewhat frugal. She can save all her money so she can join me after she's FI. I already have enough for a future SO but my requirement is that she needs to have skin in the game. One would think that this would be easy to find but most of the people I meet don't have a clue when it comes to finances or they think I'm broke...lol.
Well, a quick way to turn off many independent women is to use words like "she can do X" (as in, you are deigning to allow her to do that) or "my requirement is that she needs to Y." Not just on your dating profile; excise those entirely from your vocabulary and to the extent possible, your brain. Women you might meet are real people with their own money, dreams, values, and retirement plans. They do not want to be squashed into a pre-designed plan.
The best way to find who you are looking for is to describe YOURSELF and your values, and then say that you are looking for someone who shares those values. Not "fits," not "accepts," not "will adopt," but SHARES. Because you're looking for someone to share your life with, not boss around. You are not ordering a person to your specifications. You are explaining what your life and personality is like, which lets people self-select whether they are interested and want to hear more, or whether that isn't a good fit for them and they will move on.
I realize that I am nit-picking your language use a bit here, which may not be at all an accurate picture of what you intended to convey. But you will convey that meaning to strangers on the internet, who will click right past your profile, or women on first dates, who will politely turn you down for a second one.
lol...I'm trying to picture how this conversation would go:
Me: Well sweetie, I'm already FIRE'd so you can just bank all your money.
Her: "SWEETIE"! That's condescending and your not the boss of me and you can't tell me what to do with my money.
Only an "Independent Woman" would be that stubborn and find it appalling. God forbid that she keeps her own money!
"BUT" Bridget I understand where your coming from and I'm just poking fun. None of this is something I would post on a profile. I don't advertise my wealth in real life or on-line except a little on here. Heck the only person that knows in my Family is my Mom, the rest are mad spenders. I wouldn't mind moving closer to them but don't want to star in a show on the ID channel.
And, DollarBill specifically asked for input about what kind of language will work best - I wasn't just giving unsolicited advice. My overall point is that it's best not to describe who you want to date, because to women on the other side, it feels a little icky, even if she actually fits the description. It's better to describe yourself, and then say you're interested in getting to know people who share your values. And, it's better to do that in broad, general terms, because like you said, it's important to be flexible and compromising on the details. He who wants to control every aspect of his life will end up living it alone.
I would like to hear about ways people describe themselves as frugal and not make it sound scary but maybe that would highjack the thread and I should start a different one. I find it hard to describe myself in a profile because I don't have a job, don't want to advertise that I'm financially free, I'm frugal, no kids and that I can move freely...each one can be a perk or a negative mark. I'm sure I put to much thought into this.
He was not suggesting that he wants to find a woman to "give permission" to join him on his journey, he's just looking for a match who is on the same path and shares his goals. Honestly, any woman who would blast me over using natural verbiage is not the right match for me, and that's completely okay. To me, that is finding flaws over minor details, and if you do it over one thing, you might do it over other minor things too. We all have our different opinion over what is 'minor'.
Yes this is correct!
In DollarBills case, I would question why he would have an income requirement for a match when he also states that he's already FIRE and can support a significant other. In that case, i would perhaps be careful and protective of who I let see my wealth, but if anything, I would feel even more confident that the earning potential of my match is irrelevant, barring incompatible consumer spending habits.
I don't really have a requirement for income as long as they can live below their means. I think I would be gravitate more toward a career type woman because maybe in my mind it demonstrates that she can navigate life better but like I said it's not a requirement. I even dated a woman for a couple of weeks that didn't even have a job, she just got out of a divorce and was going to school. Of course she would grill me about my situation and how I could afford to live off a small Military pension. I would just say that I live below my means and never mentioned anything about the rest of my situation. She called it off but I guess I'll never really know why.
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I don't really have a requirement for income as long as they can live below their means. I think I would be gravitate more toward a career type woman because maybe in my mind it demonstrates that she can navigate life better but like I said it's not a requirement. I even dated a woman for a couple of weeks that didn't even have a job, she just got out of a divorce and was going to school. Of course she would grill me about my situation and how I could afford to live off a small Military pension. I would just say that I live below my means and never mentioned anything about the rest of my situation. She called it off but I guess I'll never really know why.
See the bolded and think about what you just said. Do you think that FIRE women would feel exactly the same way for the exact same reasons? If not, why not? These aren't questions that you have to necessarily answer, just my reaction to your comment and maybe something to consider.
It's incredibly difficult because most of the time $$$ isn't going to come up until much later and to answer your question about how to communicate that on a profile in a way that doesn't sound off-putting - I couldn't tell you. We are a very small minority of the population. When I was overt about my frugality, I learned that there is a wide range of frugality, and the odds of finding your subset style of frugal within the rare set of frugal are low. My suggestion is to focus on other traits and watch out for obvious financial deal-breakers.
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DollarBill, I wish I had saved my online dating profile from this past summer, as I was in a similar position to you, except only half FI, not fully. I wasn't working at all, was/am frugal, with minimal possessions, and very interested in mobility. I definitely did mention frugal and mobile in my profile. I wanted my profile to only interest the right type of person without giving everything away. I probably said something about doing random things with my time, not interested in typical consumer culture, and mentioned my interest in living in RVs/vans and/or tiny homes, probably early retirement as well. I definitely also mentioned minimalism.
However, I deleted my profile after I met my perfect guy, so I don't remember exactly what I said in it any more.
But anyhow, I disclosed these basic and less-common character traits in my profile, and I met a man who was looking for a 30-something woman with no kids and zero desire for kids, as his starting point. We ended up having tons of other stuff in common, and really compatible values, and he was completely fine with the whole not-working, frugal, random life thing. My lack of job and possessions allowed me to easily move to his location. Because I wasn't FI, or working, I made sure he knew that I wasn't a gold-digger, as he's fairly well paid. I didn't disclose my entire financial picture until we were already living together so there was no reason to think he was after my money when he invited me to move in with him.
Anyhow, the online dating thing worked for us and we're very happy together. I say to be as honest in your profile as you feel comfortable with, and the right person will come along eventually.
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I don't really have a requirement for income as long as they can live below their means. I think I would be gravitate more toward a career type woman because maybe in my mind it demonstrates that she can navigate life better but like I said it's not a requirement. I even dated a woman for a couple of weeks that didn't even have a job, she just got out of a divorce and was going to school. Of course she would grill me about my situation and how I could afford to live off a small Military pension. I would just say that I live below my means and never mentioned anything about the rest of my situation. She called it off but I guess I'll never really know why.
See the bolded and think about what you just said. Do you think that FIRE women would feel exactly the same way for the exact same reasons? If not, why not? These aren't questions that you have to necessarily answer, just my reaction to your comment and maybe something to consider.
It's incredibly difficult because most of the time $$$ isn't going to come up until much later and to answer your question about how to communicate that on a profile in a way that doesn't sound off-putting - I couldn't tell you. We are a very small minority of the population. When I was overt about my frugality, I learned that there is a wide range of frugality, and the odds of finding your subset style of frugal within the rare set of frugal are low. My suggestion is to focus on other traits and watch out for obvious financial deal-breakers.
I haven't met any FIRE'd Women in real life but I'm sure if they are single then their thoughts are close to the same. I think what I run into the most are career woman who will question my sanity for retiring so early or question my drive in life. I know I get underestimated by Family/Friends often and I'm fine about it most of the time but sometimes it does get to me. Sometimes I day dream about inflating my lifestyle just to see the different reactions but it fades quickly.
I know it will be hard to find someone who has a good frugal balance but I'm hopeful. Before FIRE I was a lot more frugal but now I could be flexible with someone who is not but within reason.
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DollarBill, I wish I had saved my online dating profile from this past summer, as I was in a similar position to you, except only half FI, not fully. I wasn't working at all, was/am frugal, with minimal possessions, and very interested in mobility. I definitely did mention frugal and mobile in my profile. I wanted my profile to only interest the right type of person without giving everything away. I probably said something about doing random things with my time, not interested in typical consumer culture, and mentioned my interest in living in RVs/vans and/or tiny homes, probably early retirement as well. I definitely also mentioned minimalism.
However, I deleted my profile after I met my perfect guy, so I don't remember exactly what I said in it any more.
But anyhow, I disclosed these basic and less-common character traits in my profile, and I met a man who was looking for a 30-something woman with no kids and zero desire for kids, as his starting point. We ended up having tons of other stuff in common, and really compatible values, and he was completely fine with the whole not-working, frugal, random life thing. My lack of job and possessions allowed me to easily move to his location. Because I wasn't FI, or working, I made sure he knew that I wasn't a gold-digger, as he's fairly well paid. I didn't disclose my entire financial picture until we were already living together so there was no reason to think he was after my money when he invited me to move in with him.
Anyhow, the online dating thing worked for us and we're very happy together. I say to be as honest in your profile as you feel comfortable with, and the right person will come along eventually.
That's great that you met a like minded person...hope it works out for you!
Here's a section from what I wrote on my profile:
I believe that too many people today are short sighted and might prefer a smaller but immediate reward instead of a larger reward but a delayed one. Since early childhood I've been focused on escaping from the rat race and would like to find someone who can resist self-gratification to better their future.
I’ve got my act together. I strive to create balance in my life and find happiness in the smallest of experiences. I prefer a simple, happy and healthier lifestyle and do my best to constantly grow.