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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 02:13:39 AM

Title: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 02:13:39 AM
Edit: I didn't realize this would be interpreted so seriously/negatively when I wrote it. Try to think of a couple having a little fun debating about living expenses when you read it. We don't take money matters personally.

Here's a tough one:

I bought a house about 6 months ago with 20% down.  I am 27 and have a stable income. My gf is younger and does not yet have a stable income. We both live in my house. We are not married, but have been together for 4 years and are planning to stay together for life. I think it's fair that she pay half of the living expenses when she can afford to. When she's not able to because of tuition or other expenses I don't expect her to. The mortgage is under $700 a month, so I think half is a very good deal; it'd probably cost her more to find a room to rent on her own. And that is about what I would ask if I were to rent out one of the bedrooms, which I sort of wanted to do but she talked me out of it. She doesn't like the idea of paying "rent" to her boyfriend; understandable. And she pointed out that if we break up in the future, she will have contributed to the mortgage but will not own any of the house. Should I keep track of how much she contributes to the principal part of the payments and grant her ownership on that much? Is that even possible? What if the value of the house changes? Would her ownership be based on percentage (contributions/purchase price) or just dollars towards principal? If it's a percentage, if we split up I could have to buy her out at a higher price than she contributed, assuming the house value goes up. I am definitely not giving her half, then if we split I could end up having to buy my house almost 1.5 times! What is a fair way to handle this? Maybe I should just pay the whole mortgage and have her just split the utilities and groceries.

More edits: Some people have interpreted this as my gf wanting a "free ride", which was not the case. Her concern was being asked to pay half the living expenses but not gain any home equity. With some advice I received from this forum, we agreed on her paying a discounted rent based on what it would cost to live alone, which seems the most fair for both of us. This has worked great ever since, happy happy joy joy :)

I am not responding to any more posts. I'm not upset, just takes too much time. Every time I do a new post, someone posts something and I feel the need to explain myself better. Probably my bad for putting personal stuff on here. So this is the last time; I'd rather be out biking. Thanks for participating in my post everyone, peace out!
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Half-Borg on August 30, 2013, 02:18:58 AM
I would not split the house. You never know what happens and there is no need going into divorce-like trouble when you are not even married.
(Might be hard to break to her)
But I also think it's unfair to have her pay principal, so I would just split utilities, groceries and maybe interest. So you save on expenses and can continue to own your house. Granted you would save more by having a roommate, but if she's smart, she saves her surplus and if you eventually get married your family is richer either way.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 02:29:43 AM

I would not split the house. You never know what happens and there is no need going into divorce-like trouble when you are not even married.
(Might be hard to break to her)
But I also think it's unfair to have her pay principal, so I would just split utilities, groceries and maybe interest. So you save on expenses and can continue to own your house. Granted you would save more by having a roommate, but if she's smart, she saves her surplus and if you eventually get married your family is richer either way.
I like it. Didn't think about asking her to just split the interest and leave the principal out of it; good idea.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Vitai Slade on August 30, 2013, 02:58:35 AM
I have my own place as well and though it might be a hard thing to break it to them, I would absolutely NOT give them ANY ownership of the house. Heard too many horror stories about this kinda stuff. If my partner were to live with me, they would be paying 'rent' to me as any roommate would, they just happen to be my partner as well. Depending on situation, you may charge them less or may not, but your house is your house. That mortgage is in your name and you are the one taking on the burden of the debt. They can jump ship at any time they want. That is WHY people rent in the first place.

I will not share finances with a partner. I know a couple that has been together for years that splits their finances this way. Even when they go out to eat they still split the bill. It works great for them. Also, when you control your own finances, you have less arguments about money and how/where to spend it.

If you still are holding the mortgage, I would at LEAST charge for half the interes and utilities and such, but it'd be even better if a bit extra was added to that for maintenance costs and such. That will silently eat away at any home purchase over time.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Paul der Krake on August 30, 2013, 03:20:07 AM
What would you charge a roommate if he was a stranger found on Craigslist?

Take that number, apply a generous girlfriend discount, and charge her that. Like you pointed out, she should still come out ahead. The fact that she has been paying for part of your mortgage, or the mortage amount for that matter, is irrelevant. Renters with a live-in landlord aren't entitled to home equity either.

Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: jrhampt on August 30, 2013, 06:19:01 AM
She doesn't like the idea of paying "rent" to her boyfriend; understandable. And she pointed out that if we break up in the future, she will have contributed to the mortgage but will not own any of the house. Should I keep track of how much she contributes to the principal part of the payments and grant her ownership on that much? Is that even possible?

Why should she get to live in the house for free, though?  If it was anywhere else, she'd be paying rent, and as Paul said, she wouldn't be getting any equity.  She didn't contribute to the down payment, and she probably wouldn't have qualified for a home loan given her income history.  Does she expect a free ride just because she's your girlfriend?  No.  The house is yours, and she should be paying her fair share of living expenses.  This would be a red flag for me.  I would not put her name on the mortgage or split ownership in any other way.

Giving her equity without having her name on the mortgage is even worse, because it allows her to reap the rewards of home ownership without sharing in the risk.  And for her to object to renting out a room in *your* property when she's not carrying her fair share of living expenses?  Balls!  I am outraged on your behalf.  Maybe you should explain to her how the world works.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Vitai Slade on August 30, 2013, 06:57:03 AM
She doesn't like the idea of paying "rent" to her boyfriend; understandable. And she pointed out that if we break up in the future, she will have contributed to the mortgage but will not own any of the house. Should I keep track of how much she contributes to the principal part of the payments and grant her ownership on that much? Is that even possible?

Why should she get to live in the house for free, though?  If it was anywhere else, she'd be paying rent, and as Paul said, she wouldn't be getting any equity.  She didn't contribute to the down payment, and she probably wouldn't have qualified for a home loan given her income history.  Does she expect a free ride just because she's your girlfriend?  No.  The house is yours, and she should be paying her fair share of living expenses.  This would be a red flag for me.  I would not put her name on the mortgage or split ownership in any other way.

Giving her equity without having her name on the mortgage is even worse, because it allows her to reap the rewards of home ownership without sharing in the risk.  And for her to object to renting out a room in *your* property when she's not carrying her fair share of living expenses?  Balls!  I am outraged on your behalf.  Maybe you should explain to her how the world works.

+1 THIS ^^^^ x 1000
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Peony on August 30, 2013, 07:01:47 AM
Maybe she could be solely responsible for one or two of the household bills, and you could be solely responsible for the housing expense? For instance, maybe she could have the electricity and Internet accounts in her name. It would amount to the pretty much the same thing, monetarily speaking, as her paying some rent to you, but just might feel a bit less cold-blooded.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: jrhampt on August 30, 2013, 07:11:23 AM
I would not split the house. You never know what happens and there is no need going into divorce-like trouble when you are not even married.
(Might be hard to break to her)
But I also think it's unfair to have her pay principal, so I would just split utilities, groceries and maybe interest. So you save on expenses and can continue to own your house. Granted you would save more by having a roommate, but if she's smart, she saves her surplus and if you eventually get married your family is richer either way.

How is it unfair to have her pay principal?  If you have a rental house, when your tenants pay the rent, it is paying your mortgage.  How is this any different?  And he *does* have a roommate, she just happens to be his girlfriend also.  She should feel supremely lucky that he's not expecting her to pay for her share of the expenses until her income catches up to his, not be whining about how she doesn't get any equity in the house.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: FIence! on August 30, 2013, 07:33:41 AM
You say: "We are not married, but have been together for 4 years and are planning to stay together for life."
She says: "if we break up in the future, she will have contributed to the mortgage but will not own any of the house."

You want to rent out one of the bedrooms in the house YOU own.
She talks you out of making money, while she is not an owner of the house and then doesn't like the idea of paying rent herself either.

Huh. 

I think there is more you need to think about here than what a fair financial situation for her is. You say she is "younger," which leads me to believe we're not just talking about she's 26 and you're 27. How old is she? Has she ever rented on her own, or did she move straight from having her parents support to having you support her?

It already sounds like you are giving her tons of leeway in when and how much she pays you. This is GENEROUS. She is acting like it's not. This is a huge, huge red flag. I know we are supposed to be looking at the financial angle of this situation, but in many relationships financial arrangements and emotional feelings don't just get tangled up, they mirror each other. Look at other aspects of your relationship and see if there is a pattern: Are you always taking her out to eat, paying for all of the dates, buying her gifts and not getting the same in return? I am not saying she should be matching your gifts/dates/etc. dollar for dollar, just in spirit. So if you buy her a purse or ipod or something for christmas, does she buy you a book she knows you'll like, or does she give you nothing because she's "broke"? If you take her to a nice dinner, the next time you go out does she offer to spring for ice cream, or are you straight to another nice dinner on your dime?
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 30, 2013, 08:32:30 AM
You say: "We are not married, but have been together for 4 years and are planning to stay together for life."
She says: "if we break up in the future, she will have contributed to the mortgage but will not own any of the house."

That's what I heard too.

If she is living with you in your house, that is your choice. But just have her pitch in on groceries and utilities. Don't put anything in her name at all.... don't be silly. I'm 39, been down that road. Keep things separate... if its right, she's do anything and be happy to live there.

I personally would not charge her rent at all. None. Just let her pay a few bills and split the food.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: limeandpepper on August 30, 2013, 08:43:12 AM
I agree with the others.

Someone who pays rent is paying for a roof over their head, not for ownership of the place. She doesn't like the idea of paying rent to her boyfriend? Is she suggesting she lives there for nothing? So what if by paying rent she's indirectly contributing to the mortgage? If she rents elsewhere, she's contributing to someone's mortgage too, or their investment accounts if the house is already paid off. Oh, and if she wants to talk about breaking up - if she doesn't pay rent, and things don't work out for you two, there are all those years of extra income you could've had from renting out the rooms in your house that's gone, so will she reimburse you for that? I doubt it. I hope she has offered a fair solution - otherwise it's a show of entitlement which is not on.

As has been mentioned, you could suss out the market rate and apply a discount so she pays a reduced rent. OR, she doesn't pay rent, but she brings value in some other way e.g. does a bigger share of household duties, and you rent out one of the extra bedrooms to someone else to help you financially. If she doesn't think it's fair, she can feel free to live somewhere else and pay more for it. And you can get a housemate and get more rent. I know you can't put a price on a relationship, but compatible attitudes are important and perhaps this the test.

I'd also recommend you check out the legalities of it all to protect yourself - here in Australia, for example, a couple living together for a certain period of time is considered as married, and if the breakup is not amicable, the fight over assets can get messy.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: AlmostIndependent on August 30, 2013, 08:57:51 AM
I agree with the others.

Someone who pays rent is paying for a roof over their head, not for ownership of the place. She doesn't like the idea of paying rent to her boyfriend? Is she suggesting she lives there for nothing? So what if by paying rent she's indirectly contributing to the mortgage? If she rents elsewhere, she's contributing to someone's mortgage too, or their investment accounts if the house is already paid off. Oh, and if she wants to talk about breaking up - if she doesn't pay rent, and things don't work out for you two, there are all those years of extra income you could've had from renting out the rooms in your house that's gone, so will she reimburse you for that? I doubt it. I hope she has offered a fair solution - otherwise it's a show of entitlement which is not on.

As has been mentioned, you could suss out the market rate and apply a discount so she pays a reduced rent. OR, she doesn't pay rent, but she brings value in some other way e.g. does a bigger share of household duties, and you rent out one of the extra bedrooms to someone else to help you financially. If she doesn't think it's fair, she can feel free to live somewhere else and pay more for it. And you can get a housemate and get more rent. I know you can't put a price on a relationship, but compatible attitudes are important and perhaps this the test.

I'd also recommend you check out the legalities of it all to protect yourself - here in Australia, for example, a couple living together for a certain period of time is considered as married, and if the breakup is not amicable, the fight over assets can get messy.

This is all excellent advice. Take it from someone who knows.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: kt on August 30, 2013, 09:13:19 AM
if you go down the utilities route perhaps you could recommend she puts the equivalent of rent away each month in a high-interest account/investments. that way if you get married she could be added to the deeds/mortgage and pay off a chunk of the principal or if you split she has a down-payment saved (plus is in the habit of making sufficient space in her budget for rent).
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Spork on August 30, 2013, 09:16:43 AM

Count me as in agreement.  She shouldn't get equity and should pay some share.

I do think splitting it halfway is probably not a good way to go... both from "fairness" and from the point that this is probably not good for the relationship. 

Assuming you are planning on being together for life:  I'd split everything proportional to your salaries.  For example, if you make $2000/mo and she makes $1000/mo, I'd split it all 2/3 -- 1/3.  This makes it a fairly equal load on each of you.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Samsam on August 30, 2013, 09:17:39 AM
This is interesting because my GF and I are about to be in the same kind of situation, as I am buying a house and she will be living there with me.  The difference is that she is willing to pay rent but I don't feel right having her pay half of my rent when I make 4x as much money as her.  Since she is not just some roommate and I want to build a future (and financial future) with her I am trying to break up the expenses by our income level.  So if our electric bill costs $100, she would pay 25 and I would pay 75 kind of thing.  Actually I am wondering about what other MMM'ers thing about this kind of strategy? 

My parents echoed Mr Macinstache's advice on not having her pay rent in the chance there is a breakup.  I mean you will have no rental agreement with her and if she is putting down some principal...I have no idea where that leaves either of you. 

Another aside, I did not even expect my GF to offer to pay rent because I know if she was on her own she wouldn't even consider renting in a place like where I am buying...yet I want her to live with me.  Would your GF rent in a place you are buying your house? 
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Insanity on August 30, 2013, 09:17:47 AM
Have you talked to her more about why she feels that way?  I have to be honest, I am a bit "old fashioned" and when my fiancé moved into the townhouse I purchased, I never thought of asking her for money for it.  I always viewed it as ours.  Of course, she also offered to pay expenses and put some of the utilities in her name so that she did pay some of the bills.  Heck, even after we got married and she was unemployed we fought because I told her she didn't have to work just any job and could wait till she found what she wanted or go back to school if she wanted to do something else.

Are you planning on getting married to her or just living together?  As pointed out, common law marriages do exist, so be aware you may fall into that category at some point regardless of the path taken. 
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Peter on August 30, 2013, 09:28:51 AM
if you go down the utilities route perhaps you could recommend she puts the equivalent of rent away each month in a high-interest account/investments. that way if you get married she could be added to the deeds/mortgage and pay off a chunk of the principal or if you split she has a down-payment saved (plus is in the habit of making sufficient space in her budget for rent).

So if they stay together she gets half the house, and if she leaves she gets to take the money and run? Sounds like a great deal for the OP! lol
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Paul der Krake on August 30, 2013, 09:37:29 AM
Have you talked to her more about why she feels that way?  I have to be honest, I am a bit "old fashioned" and when my fiancé moved into the townhouse I purchased, I never thought of asking her for money for it.  I always viewed it as ours.  Of course, she also offered to pay expenses and put some of the utilities in her name so that she did pay some of the bills.
The fact that you were engaged at that point is one hell of a difference. Sure, weddings are called off all the time, but charging your fiance rent would be insulting for most people. It's not called a relationship milestone for nothing. ;)
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: BlueMR2 on August 30, 2013, 09:53:34 AM
It's your house and she's still just a girlfriend.  There's no way I'd let her own part of it.  I'd either let her stay for free, or charge her a reasonable rent.  *If* (I don't know your exact situation, so this may not apply to your situation at all, but worst case...) we couldn't come to an agreement on with either of those, that relationship would be over.  I'd say that about 1 out of every 10 women I've met are ones that I consider reasonable GF material.  Any one that brings up unreasonable requests is gone.  Life's too short to get stuck with someone that wants things they're not entitled to yet (and until your married, she's not entitled to your house in any way, she's in a "friend" (albeit very close) state).
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 30, 2013, 09:58:13 AM
The idea of collecting is just a bad idea. It's your GF, not a roomate. Drop the rent idea all together. Let her pitch in other ways.

Before I married my wife and we lived together the thought never crossed my mind once. She helped out with bills, food and helped with chores around the house. When two people want to be together the money should never come into play.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: totoro on August 30, 2013, 10:04:27 AM
She is coming from a weird place imo by wanting part of the house equity if you break up if she pays rent.  That is a bit of a red flag.  It is not reasonable imo and shows a sense of entitlement without adequate understanding of fairness/cost of living. 

Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Spork on August 30, 2013, 10:06:01 AM
The idea of collecting is just a bad idea. It's your GF, not a roomate. Drop the rent idea all together. Let her pitch in other ways.

Before I married my wife and we lived together the thought never crossed my mind once. She helped out with bills, food and helped with chores around the house. When two people want to be together the money should never come into play.

So... I really like the tone of this... and I really get where you're coming from.   The problem is... money always comes into play.  It's part of life and it's part of relationships. 

This might work just fine... or it might not.  But money dynamics need to be understood by both sides and worked out.

It's really unromantic... but in the end marriage is really a business partnership.  Sure, for some people it's religious and (hopefully for all people) there is a serious romantic commitment involved.   But: it's still a business partnership.  The terms of that partnership need to be explicitly understood by both sides or ... expectations won't be met, feelings will be hurt, etc.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: FIence! on August 30, 2013, 10:31:31 AM
When two people want to be together the money should never come into play.

Well, sure. When two people WANT to be together. But as we saw, he is thinking they will always be together, she is already entertaining the idea of breaking up at some point.

It's a point worth making that there are tons of people in the world who are more than happy to "be with" someone when things are smooth sailing and the benefit is weighted toward them. I am not saying she is taking advantage of the situation--I don't know her, only the OP does--but I am saying that there are red flags that should not be ignored. There is a world of difference between not being able to pay rent and just not wanting to because she somehow feels entitled to live there for free.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: StarryC on August 30, 2013, 10:40:54 AM
So if our electric bill costs $100, she would pay 25 and I would pay 75 kind of thing. 

I think this is a way plenty of families do it.  It's the way couples who put all the money in a joint account and then take allowances do it, they just don't state it that way.  It's also a way to resolve the issue of really unequal income.  If X could afford a rent of $1,500 a month, and Y could only afford rent of $500 a month, they can either live in a $1,000 a month unit so they share "equally" or live in a $2000 a month unit and share "equitably." Yes, some people might feel like X is being "taken advantage of" but presumably X is in on the bargain, and Y contributes to X's happiness in other ways. 

To the OP: If you really are planning to be together forever, then everything you each bring in contributes to the family's wealth, and everything that goes out decreases it.  This is especially true when married in a community property state.  The problem with this plan is that you don't have the legal protections/system of marriage right now.  If you were married, you wouldn't need to grant her ownership in any other way, if you got divorced the Judge would work it out then.  If not, then when you sell the house the money would of course go in to the family fund.  If you don't see your economic futures as inexorably linked, then you probably aren't "planning to be together forever."  If she and you think of the money as "rent" rather than contributing to the household's expenses, that is a problem.  This is not "breakup worthy" to me, but it is a "fish or cut bait" moment.  Either legally recognize your joint financial status, or realize you don't want to do that.  If you don't want to, she'll probably break up with you!

As for "rent": I know several people with long term roommates renting in their owned house.  None of them have any equity.  They pay "fair market" rent which could be more or less than 50% of the mortgage+ taxes+ insurance.  As renters, they could move out with 30 days notice and not need to worry about selling the house.  When things break, they don't pay to fix them. 
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: BoulderTC on August 30, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
I don't know the right answer. I could agree with almost any of the replies above for various reasons. This is definitely not a clear cut situation.

BUT, I just wanted to say that it seems that a lot of the red flags would disappear if marriage or engagement was on the horizon. Seems there might be more to this than financials. If there's a reason why you're not talking about engagement/marriage, but you are talking about splitting ownership of a house ... you might want to dive into that. Same goes for why she'd be offended if you charged her money to live in your house without ownership. Seems there might be some root causes here that are being overlooked, and that the financial situation might sort itself out when you get to the bottom of the whole thing.

I would have never considered splitting ownership of a house with anyone but my husband. But luckily, by the time we bought a house we were married, and it is completely understood that we both contribute and we're investing in our life together.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: minimalist on August 30, 2013, 10:44:11 AM
The idea of collecting is just a bad idea. It's your GF, not a roomate. Drop the rent idea all together. Let her pitch in other ways.

Before I married my wife and we lived together the thought never crossed my mind once. She helped out with bills, food and helped with chores around the house. When two people want to be together the money should never come into play.

Maybe if you have a 50s mindset. Many women these days make as much or more than their partners.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: EMP on August 30, 2013, 10:48:28 AM
Another aside, I did not even expect my GF to offer to pay rent because I know if she was on her own she wouldn't even consider renting in a place like where I am buying...yet I want her to live with me.  Would your GF rent in a place you are buying your house? 

This is a good point. 

She is coming from a weird place imo by wanting part of the house equity if you break up if she pays rent.  That is a bit of a red flag.  It is not reasonable imo and shows a sense of entitlement without adequate understanding of fairness/cost of living. 



What if they got married and then divorced?  Then she will have contributed, but the house wouldn't be considered a joint asset.  Unless I'm wrong about that.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 30, 2013, 11:22:09 AM
The idea of collecting is just a bad idea. It's your GF, not a roomate. Drop the rent idea all together. Let her pitch in other ways.

Before I married my wife and we lived together the thought never crossed my mind once. She helped out with bills, food and helped with chores around the house. When two people want to be together the money should never come into play.

Maybe if you have a 50s mindset. Many women these days make as much or more than their partners.

Ok, but they aren't married.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: kh on August 30, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
Splitting household expenses proportionally by income has worked well for my boyfriend and me. I make about 5 times what he does (he's currently in grad school), so Rent=5x+1x. Solve for x to get his share.

Two people living together, married or no, should both be contributing to the household. Unless something substantial and non-monetary is being contributed (most often child care from a stay-at-home spouse), both parties need to pony up and pay some bills to avoid resentment by one party over having to eat all the costs. Call it rent, make it the bills, whatever, but there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Mr.Macinstache on August 30, 2013, 11:33:58 AM
How about just ask her what she feels is the right thing to do?
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: mustacheme on August 30, 2013, 11:47:19 AM
I highly recommend that you neither verbally, in writing or in any other way give your girlfriend the impression that you will give her equity in your home for living with you. That sounds like a Judge Judy episode waiting to happen.

I agree with others who have pointed out that if she was living with or renting from anyone else (potentially even some parents) she would be paying a certain amount each month, and that money might be going toward that person's mortgage or investment income.

I purchased my home while living with a boyfriend. We had been together for 2 1/2 years and planned to get married in another couple of years from the time I purchased. We had even rented together for a little over a year before I purchased. All that considered, we still kept the purchase in my name only, and he contributed to household expenses including what we agreed to be a reasonable amount of "rent" or household expenses, or whatever you want to call them in name. We calculated the amount by taking approximately 1/2 of what he would have been paying if he were to rent in the area.

Fast forward 8 years, and that relationship is long over, and I now live with my current boyfriend. We've been together 2 years, and plan to be together forever. When he moved in we calculated a fair amount based on what he would approximately be paying if we were to be renting together, and he contributes that amount each month for household expenses.

I think it is completely reasonable to expect her to contribute to the household expenses, and part of those expenses are keeping a roof over your heads, rather you own that roof or someone else owns that roof.

I know nothing more than what you described in your post, but her attitude towards contributing toward the household expenses seems to show a lack of maturity and responsibility. If you don't want to charge her anything for household expenses, that is your decision. However, living rent free is not something that a mature, self-efficient adult should expect.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: ioseftavi on August 30, 2013, 11:59:33 AM
How about just ask her what she feels is the right thing to do?

This is a really, really good idea.  Don't go setting boundaries or slamming her into the pavement if it's not necessary.  I would just explain to her, "Listen, I've been thinking - I would really like to rent out the spare bedroom, but I don't feel comfortable doing that when the two of us are living here.  I know you don't have your career as nailed down as I do yet, and that's OK.  But I feel like you should be involved, even if it's just a little, with helping with the expenses each month.  On the flip side...I don't want to legally mess around with the ownership of the house.  On the chance that something happens with us, that could be a mess!  What do you think we should do?"

Be patient, be cool, and shut the f*** up and listen to her response.  You've been dating this girl for four years.  If you're not committed to marrying her yet, her answer to this question will probably shed some light on how she thinks about money and what is "fair".  I would say you should listen to her suggestions and then take it from there (including saying something like, "OK, I just wanted your opinion.  We can revisit this another time once I've thought it through a little better.").  Again, don't be needlessly mean or demanding - use this as an opportunity to find out more about how your girlfriend thinks of money and how expenses should be split.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: kt on August 30, 2013, 12:43:00 PM
if you go down the utilities route perhaps you could recommend she puts the equivalent of rent away each month in a high-interest account/investments. that way if you get married she could be added to the deeds/mortgage and pay off a chunk of the principal or if you split she has a down-payment saved (plus is in the habit of making sufficient space in her budget for rent).

So if they stay together she gets half the house, and if she leaves she gets to take the money and run? Sounds like a great deal for the OP! lol

several people are suggesting she contributes just to utilities, as i have here. i'm just suggesting a way of her feeling like she isn't 'just renting' (i.e. not moving towards home ownership).
perhaps i'm odd but i consider things within marriage (or i guess long-term stable live-in relationships) jointly owned so regardless of the route they take regarding this, i'd expect her to 'get' half the house if they stay together.
and if they break up, well the money was hers all along (assuming she contributes to utilities or whatever else as agreed) so what has the op lost? bar the rent several other people are suggesting he forgoes anyway (which i admit could be considerable)
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: jrhampt on August 30, 2013, 12:53:45 PM
Have you talked to her more about why she feels that way?  I have to be honest, I am a bit "old fashioned" and when my fiancé moved into the townhouse I purchased, I never thought of asking her for money for it.  I always viewed it as ours.  Of course, she also offered to pay expenses and put some of the utilities in her name so that she did pay some of the bills.
The fact that you were engaged at that point is one hell of a difference. Sure, weddings are called off all the time, but charging your fiance rent would be insulting for most people. It's not called a relationship milestone for nothing. ;)
It's not "charging your fiance rent"; it's two people sharing living expenses.  Why would it be insulting to anyone to expect them to function financially as part of the team?  Some of these responses are crazy to me.  If the genders were reversed and it was the boyfriend crashing for free at the girlfriend's place, wouldn't he be viewed as a freeloader?  So is she, if she's not contributing her share.  I do agree with one of the posters above who proposes pro-rating bills based on relative income; that could be an acceptable strategy.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Paul der Krake on August 30, 2013, 01:16:29 PM
@jrhampt, you're right. It's absolutely expected to have two engaged people share the burden of keeping a roof over their heads, but the monetary aspect changes. It is a move from landlord-tenant relationship (with benefits) to a full partnership.

Obviously, not all couples work the same, YMMV, etc.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: CommonCents on August 30, 2013, 02:14:11 PM
I'm in the "girlfriend discount" camp.

I don't think she should gain equity in the house (particularly if she's not also responsible for the debt!).  However, it is true you picked the place and correspondingly determined the cost of living (housing is one big factor, which she had no control over).  Not to mention she's not a roommate - she's sharing a room with you for one, she doesn't have her own room/space.  (I get the whole house is yours, I just am envisioning you moving in a roommate, who would pay you rent, well it wouldn't be fair to have her pay the same amount in that case in my mind.)  And you clearly want her to with you, so you should be willing to give up a little as well.
 
I like ioseftavi suggestions for opening up a conversation.  I'd prepare beforehand though and figure out how much it would cost for her to live on her own or with roommates (how much did her rent cost before?).  I'd then figure out the costs beyond mortage principle including: utilities, mortgage interest, taxes, maintenance.  Somewhere around there or halfway between it and what it'd cost her on her own is probably reasonable.

I moved in with my now-husband.  He owns the place mortgage-free.  I had lost my job and we were actually anti-mustachian in waiting so long to move in together, because I didn't want to move in JUST because I lost my job (I had a lot of savings so I could support myself), so I waited excessively and extra long to make sure that wasn't the case and we were on the path to engagement.  (I had a prior relationship where we moved in together too quickly.)  I would have been willing to pay a whole lot more, but because I didn't have a job - and he didn't have mortgage costs - he insisted on continuing to pay for condo fees, taxes, and some utilities as he'd have those costs regardless of whether or not I was in there.  I took over the most expensive bill, for cable and internet because I was able to negotiate a substantially lower rate on mine than I could on his.  I also paid for most groceries, because I was trying to get us to eat at home more often.  Still am.  I also spent a lot of time learning to coupon and building a stockpile for us.  But we worked all of that out in advance.

P.S.  ...why wasn't this worked out before she moved in?
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Samsam on August 30, 2013, 02:25:48 PM
P.S.  ...why wasn't this worked out before she moved in?

Oh snap, yea I did not even catch that.  If she moved in with you under the assumption she wouldn't be paying rent and it would just be the two of you living there, and then you dropped the info about a roommate / rent...well...she may have just stayed where she was living before.  Again assuming some things but only you and her know all of the details in between. 
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
Wow, lots of enthusiastic comments! I will take everybody's advice about not making her a co-owner; seems it would be a big mistake and I don't even know how to do that or how to handle if the home value changes.

I think I should defend my girlfriend a little; I may have given some of you the wrong idea. My girlfriend is very loving and at least as optimistic about our future as I am. We both just want to plan for the unexpected and avoid getting screwed, in the bad way, haha. She happily treats me to dinners and such when she can afford to. She definitely matches gifts "in spirit".

She is not seeking a free ride. She wants to pay what is fair, but doesn't like calling it "rent". Right now we are just having a conversation; no arguing at this point. We lived together first at my parents, then an apartment while she was going to the junior college in town. Then she transferred to a university and rented a room in the city there since she had class 5 days a week and it is 1.5 hrs drive from where I live. I bought the house during her winter break. We wanted to live together, but she was stuck in the lease and couldn't get someone to take her spot. She moved in with me anyway and commuted 3 days a week. I didn't ask her to pay anything since she was still having to pay rent for the room. Her lease ended in May. I told her while she's in school to just contribute what she can afford. I figure if we stay together this will be a good investment and I am willing to take the risk that we don't. She decided to take a break from school this year, so we agreed she could pay half since it is not any more than what she would pay renting something minimal on her own. Then she talked to a family member who convinced her this wasn't fair and she brought up the subject with me.

I am not sure what we will do about marriage. She goes back and forth about wanting it and I am indifferent about it other than the financial stuff. I don't think it would change the non-financial parts of our relationship; well it might because finances may impact the other parts. If we do get married, it won't be for a while because she would probably not be able to get grant money for school if she had to count my income. I don't think this is weasily of us because it shouldn't be my responsibility to pay for her education. I also don't think I would like lumping finances with someone. She spends money on silly things and gets traffic tickets and is not as good as I am with money. I know I will probably have to pay for some of it one way or another, but I want to keep the accounting separate. I am excited to share every other part of my life with her, she is fantastic and I love her! And she is getting better at the money stuff. Taking my advice and rent-free living, she saved up and paid cash for a used, fuel-efficient car. I didn't ask her to pay home expenses while she was saving for the car because I thought it was great, and I will benefit from low cost road trips with my lover!

I understand her concerns about the home equity. Say we don't get married and in 20 years we break up. She may have contributed a lot and own nothing, when she could have bought her own house and been paying it off. But I don't want to risk having to buy a big chunk of my house back when I could have had rental income, or for some reason her share ends up bigger than her contributions.

Right now I'm leaning towards us figuring out what she would spend living on her own, then giving a girlfriend discount of, I don't know, 20%? We could revisit this later when she has stable income. Thanks for the advice!

Anyone know what happens in CA if you enter a marriage with a mortgage? I know property acquired before marriage is separate, but I would be using my after marriage wages to pay for it. What are the protections of marriage some of you speak of? I thought legally each person gets half of everything, which sounds bad for me.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: CommonCents on August 30, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
Josh, I think in CA if you contribute to a house during marriage (in other words, pay the mortgage - or even put a lot of work into renovating it) with funds from money earned during marriage, then yes, it can be considered community property.  But you should talk to a licensed lawyer in your state about it.

**Please note, this is not legal advice.  I am NOT licensed in California and I am not a family law attorney**

If you are truly contemplating living together for 20+ years and not getting married, then I can see your girlfriend's perspective better.  In that case, perhaps buying a house together - WITH A CONTRACT and equal downpayments, sharing risk and reward, etc - would be something to contemplate in the future.  But right now you aren't sure what you will do in a few years, and equity in a house may not even be beneficial for her loans, so I would hold pat for now.

You say it's not your responsibility to pay for her education, which tweaks a chord badly in my mind.  No, it's not your responsibility, it's her choice and her education, but if you are planning a long-term relationship with someone, you accept that you may pay for them if something happens to their health, job, etc.  (And if you have kids, share in raising them.)  So it's concerning to me how you phrase it and want to avoid responsibility.  Marriage (and even long-term relationships) are about accepting responsibility for each other.

Hopefully you can help her get in a better spot with her finances, where she doesn't get parking tickets anymore, and you'll be less concerned about becoming financial partners down the road.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: StarryC on August 30, 2013, 08:15:41 PM
Again, not qualified legal advice: But, I think California has even had some "Pal-imony" cases, where being in a non-marriage relationship with someone for a long time can result in some divorce-like asset splits. I think Liberace might have been involved in such a way?

The "protections" of marriage are for the lower earning spouse.  They also are usually more relevant when children are involved.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Daleth on August 30, 2013, 08:54:41 PM
This is interesting because my GF and I are about to be in the same kind of situation, as I am buying a house and she will be living there with me.  The difference is that she is willing to pay rent but I don't feel right having her pay half of my rent when I make 4x as much money as her.  Since she is not just some roommate and I want to build a future (and financial future) with her I am trying to break up the expenses by our income level.  So if our electric bill costs $100, she would pay 25 and I would pay 75 kind of thing.  Actually I am wondering about what other MMM'ers thing about this kind of strategy? 

That's what we do too. I earn 2x as much as my husband so he pays 1/3 of all bills, I pay 2/3. It was my idea. My reasoning was that this way we are both spending the same amount of TIME paying for things--in other words if it takes me a week's work to pay my part of the mortgage, it also takes him a week's work.

To me, equal amounts of TIME seems like a much more fair way to divvy things up than making us spend equal amounts of MONEY. If we earned the same, of course, we'd both be spending equal amounts of time and money, but we don't earn the same, so we have to pick which of those two things to split equally. And as we all know, even though we cackle in a Mustachian manner every time we save six bucks on a phone bill or whatever, time is much more valuable than money. Time is everything, the only thing we have. So that's the thing we'll split equally.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 09:07:05 PM
You say it's not your responsibility to pay for her education, which tweaks a chord badly in my mind.  No, it's not your responsibility, it's her choice and her education, but if you are planning a long-term relationship with someone, you accept that you may pay for them if something happens to their health, job, etc.  (And if you have kids, share in raising them.)  So it's concerning to me how you phrase it and want to avoid responsibility.  Marriage (and even long-term relationships) are about accepting responsibility for each other.

I am fine accepting responsibility for those other things, and already do help her out financially when she gets in a jam. But she is perfectly capable of getting an education without me paying for it, especially with the grant money. She wouldn't want me to pay for it anyway. I just think she should take advantage of the grants by not marrying me until later, if we do. Didn't mean to imply that I am not responsible for her at all.  I am also planning on giving her a break on the living costs when she starts to pay back her student loans, so in a way I will still be helping with her education. We probably will have a kid or two, and I will strive to be the best dad! Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on August 30, 2013, 09:45:42 PM
I think it's fair that she pay half of the living expenses when she can afford to. When she's not able to because of tuition or other expenses I don't expect her to.
Speaking from a few decades of experience & hindsight:
1.  You seem to think that you have a vote in this decision.
2.  Your discussions are putting a price on the relationship.
3.  The way these money discussions proceed now is a very good harbinger of how your marriage will proceed later... especially when the kids arrive.

Anyone know what happens in CA if you enter a marriage with a mortgage? I know property acquired before marriage is separate, but I would be using my after marriage wages to pay for it. What are the protections of marriage some of you speak of? I thought legally each person gets half of everything, which sounds bad for me.
The conventional answer for this situation is "prenup".  If that vocabulary word causes the discussion to turn contentious, it's an indication that you should consider pre-marriage counseling.  I don't think counseling will resolve the issues (although that would be a bonus), but it'll help you guys to develop good ways to discuss the situation.

The really good news is that you're having these discussions before the marriage.  Imagine if these issues cropped up after the honeymoon...
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 30, 2013, 10:20:17 PM
1.  You seem to think that you have a vote in this decision.

Don't I?

2.  Your discussions are putting a price on the relationship.

I think it's better to talk about these things than not. Are you just wanting me to be aware of that? I think the price is there whether a couple talks about these things or not. If we don't work out something we are both happy with, at least one of us is going to be upset later.

Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Kira on August 30, 2013, 10:58:48 PM
I paid rent to my boyfriend for four years. Then we got married. Now I pay rent to my husband. If you've only owned the house for less than a year, the amount of principal her rent payments are paying off is pretty laughable. I did note that you said one of her relatives talked her into the idea that she's somehow getting screwed by this.. was this perhaps an extension on the "getting the milk for free" theory?

I also see that you're worried about what will happen if you're together a long time and she never had the opportunity to buy her own house. Well, given that you're giving her a discount, she's going to earn more later, etc, why can't she? She can buy an investment house on her own. And then she can decide if she's giving money back to those renters because they're paying down her mortgage.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on August 30, 2013, 11:53:51 PM
1.  You seem to think that you have a vote in this decision.
Don't I?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that there's a lack of long-term marital experience.

You're the homeowner.  You have the power.  Even "worse", you're the guy in a male-dominated society. 

She has the choice to either voluntarily pay some of the expenses (whatever you call them and however they're divided) or she has the choice to voluntarily move out.  Anything you do from your side could be interpreted as coercive, no matter how objective or rational you may think you're being.  (Engineers are notorious for making this mistake, although I don't want to get into how I learned that.)  Her interpretation is what counts.  If you're offering suggestions on what she should do (especially if those suggestions are based on your holding the deed to her lodging) then you're removing the "voluntarily" part of the equation. 

On the other hand if you're saying "I'm just happy to have you here, honey, and however you want to help out on the expenses would be great", then you're restoring the "voluntarily" part.  Let her put the onus on herself (or not) instead of casting yourself as the authority figure.  Her subsequent behavior will give you a lot of indicators about the strength of your relationship.

Whether or not you actually have a vote is irrelevant to the situation.  As soon as you exercise your right to vote, you lose the election.

2.  Your discussions are putting a price on the relationship.
I think it's better to talk about these things than not. Are you just wanting me to be aware of that? I think the price is there whether a couple talks about these things or not. If we don't work out something we are both happy with, at least one of us is going to be upset later.
Yes, all of those statements are correct.

Like I said, pre-marital counseling won't necessarily work these things out.  You guys still have to do that on your own.  However pre-marital counseling will help you both develop your own way of discussing your shared problems in a manner that avoids confrontation or defensiveness while encouraging compromise.  I think that last sentence comes right out of the "Intro to Pre-Marital Counseling" study guide.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on August 31, 2013, 12:04:41 AM
Nords you are making a lot of sense. Thanks for breaking it down in a way I understand. So far our communication is great, but I will remember what you said about the counseling helping with that. BTW, I'm a civil engineer.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on August 31, 2013, 12:19:24 AM
BTW, I'm a civil engineer.
My daughter's in her senior year of that degree program, and she's hoping to be a U.S. Navy submarine nuclear engineer.  For some reason she thinks I made the nuclear engineering part look cool.  It will be absolutely fascinating to see what type of guy she cuts out of the herd to be her spouse.  For all I know she's burned through them by now.

I think engineers do best in marriage if they pretend that they have no idea how to handle the relationship and take all of their cues from their spouse's behavior.  I'd especially suggest never ever sharing helpful household tips with your spouse like the most efficient way to dense-pack a dishwasher or the optimal first-in/first-out storage systems for the fridge & pantry.  But again I don't want to get into how I learned that.

A friend of mine on another forum was in this house-sharing situation as the homeowner.  (She's also an engineer.)  At some point their relationship ended, and during the breakup he suggested that all of his years of contributions toward the housing expenses meant that he had purchased a portion of the home's equity.  He actually hired a lawyer.  She ended up showing them both her years of Quicken records to document that he'd paid his share of the utility & grocery bills but not the mortgage.  The lawyer agreed that his client might not have a case.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: icefr on August 31, 2013, 08:10:03 AM
I think engineers do best in marriage if they pretend that they have no idea how to handle the relationship and take all of their cues from their spouse's behavior.  I'd especially suggest never ever sharing helpful household tips with your spouse like the most efficient way to dense-pack a dishwasher or the optimal first-in/first-out storage systems for the fridge & pantry.  But again I don't want to get into how I learned that.

What if your SO is also an engineer? (I'm a woman and a software engineer.)

A friend of mine on another forum was in this house-sharing situation as the homeowner.  (She's also an engineer.)  At some point their relationship ended, and during the breakup he suggested that all of his years of contributions toward the housing expenses meant that he had purchased a portion of the home's equity.  He actually hired a lawyer.  She ended up showing them both her years of Quicken records to document that he'd paid his share of the utility & grocery bills but not the mortgage.  The lawyer agreed that his client might not have a case.

Wow, see that is exactly why I'm so scared of renting to a SO that I honestly would prefer not to until I am incredibly confident that I am going to marry the guy and/or the mortgage is paid off so there's no way he could contribute to principal. What about though if his contribution covers parts of the property taxes and HOA dues? Or is it really just the utility and grocery bills that are safe?
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Samsam on August 31, 2013, 11:02:13 AM
A friend of mine on another forum was in this house-sharing situation as the homeowner.  (She's also an engineer.)  At some point their relationship ended, and during the breakup he suggested that all of his years of contributions toward the housing expenses meant that he had purchased a portion of the home's equity.  He actually hired a lawyer.  She ended up showing them both her years of Quicken records to document that he'd paid his share of the utility & grocery bills but not the mortgage.  The lawyer agreed that his client might not have a case.

Wow, see that is exactly why I'm so scared of renting to a SO that I honestly would prefer not to until I am incredibly confident that I am going to marry the guy and/or the mortgage is paid off so there's no way he could contribute to principal. What about though if his contribution covers parts of the property taxes and HOA dues? Or is it really just the utility and grocery bills that are safe?

Oh, I want to know the answer to this.  Do property taxes and HOA count?
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Half-Borg on August 31, 2013, 11:36:21 AM
2.  Your discussions are putting a price on the relationship.

I think it's better to talk about these things than not. Are you just wanting me to be aware of that? I think the price is there whether a couple talks about these things or not. If we don't work out something we are both happy with, at least one of us is going to be upset later.

Thanks for your input.
I agree with you about talking things out as soon as possible. And talking is not the same as counseling ^^

I also wanted to say, that the tone against your girlfriend has been quite negative, don't let that get to you. Remember that you are the only one here, who actually knows her. We are just hearing about one situation.
So one serious advice: Don't take advice from people on the internet!
You have been given a lot of options to think about, but it is your call.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: fidgiegirl on August 31, 2013, 02:48:48 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that there's a lack of long-term marital experience.

You're the homeowner.  You have the power.  Even "worse", you're the guy in a male-dominated society. 

She has the choice to either voluntarily pay some of the expenses (whatever you call them and however they're divided) or she has the choice to voluntarily move out.  Anything you do from your side could be interpreted as coercive, no matter how objective or rational you may think you're being.  (Engineers are notorious for making this mistake, although I don't want to get into how I learned that.)  Her interpretation is what counts.  If you're offering suggestions on what she should do (especially if those suggestions are based on your holding the deed to her lodging) then you're removing the "voluntarily" part of the equation. 

On the other hand if you're saying "I'm just happy to have you here, honey, and however you want to help out on the expenses would be great", then you're restoring the "voluntarily" part.  Let her put the onus on herself (or not) instead of casting yourself as the authority figure.  Her subsequent behavior will give you a lot of indicators about the strength of your relationship.

Whether or not you actually have a vote is irrelevant to the situation.  As soon as you exercise your right to vote, you lose the election.

Best answer yet.  And Josh, I was impressed with how you took it with an open mind.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Carrie on August 31, 2013, 05:36:50 PM
This whole thread kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.
Maybe it's that I'm old-fashioned, but I just don't understand living with someone and loving someone without wanting to make an official commitment.  Either you love them with all your heart, or you don't.  If you don't, don't cohabitate (unless you do it as roommates and have a lease contract).  If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.  Married people working towards the same goal (building wealth) can be tremendously successful, but two people who don't share the same financial goals and who have no long-term investment in the relationship could lead to disaster. 
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: arebelspy on August 31, 2013, 05:50:48 PM
This whole thread makes kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.
Maybe it's that I'm old-fashioned, but I just don't understand living with someone and loving someone without wanting to make an official commitment.  Either you love them with all your heart, or you don't.  If you don't, don't cohabitate (unless you do it as roommates and have a lease contract).  If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.  Married people working towards the same goal (building wealth) can be tremendously successful, but two people who don't share the same financial goals and who have no long-term investment in the relationship could lead to disaster.

Well said.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on August 31, 2013, 06:26:00 PM
If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.
A second-millennium humor "columnist" (Erma Bombeck) used to write about that:
http://www.thelawcollaborative.com/marriage-vs-living-together.htm
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: limeandpepper on August 31, 2013, 09:20:46 PM
I don't think this thread is sad. Some people are old-fashioned, some people are not. The important thing is to find a partner with the same outlook. It seems like Josh and his girlfriend were on the same page until her family member gave her different ideas. Let's not get the thread off-topic as to whether people should be old-fashioned or not. The key element here is that Josh doesn't seem like he's old-fashioned, so the initial advice was geared towards him making sure that his partner also has similar values. After subsequent clarifications, while there does seem to be some disconnect, it's good to know that the situation is actually mostly agreeable and not as conflicted as the first post may have suggested! At the end of the day you're after a solution for which both parties are on board and happy.

Personally, if I were in such a situation? I currently live in a sharehouse in a great suburb with cheap rent and I am happy where I am. Hypothetically, if my boyfriend already has his own place, I'd love to live with him, but I still want it to be a mutually beneficial decision for both of us. Hey, zero rent would be awesome, but I certainly wouldn't think he's taking advantage if he would like some rent for a place that is attractive and rent-able on the market. However, with me he'd be getting a great live-in cook, so he must take that into account, too. ;) Other factors also apply - if we really want to live together, but moving will mean uprooting my life in a big way, for example, then my expected financial contributions will reflect that. If we come to an agreement and I move in, I can still continue to save money and buy my own property one day, if I wish. Should we decide to marry or combine finances in the future, we could then have two properties between us! On the other hand, if I really don't want to be just paying rent, and desire part of the house, then we'd talk about joint-ownership and undertake the necessary legalities, and we can both contribute to the mortgage. Perhaps such considerations sound unromantic to some, but we've always been quite pragmatic while still being certain that we want to spend our lives together - the two mindsets are not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: KMMK on August 31, 2013, 10:03:46 PM
This whole thread kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.
Maybe it's that I'm old-fashioned, but I just don't understand living with someone and loving someone without wanting to make an official commitment.  Either you love them with all your heart, or you don't.  If you don't, don't cohabitate (unless you do it as roommates and have a lease contract).  If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.  Married people working towards the same goal (building wealth) can be tremendously successful, but two people who don't share the same financial goals and who have no long-term investment in the relationship could lead to disaster.

Marriage isn't the goal for everyone. If both partners prefer to not be legally married I see nothing wrong with that. Marriage does not necessarily equal complete commitment.
I chose to get married mostly because it made things like next of kin and beneficiary status automatic. Such things could be done other ways, but just getting married seemed simpler.

Maybe my attitude that living common-law is hardly any different from marriage, is because of where I live, where living together for a year or more gives almost the exact same result, financially as getting married. For taxes, and joint property, child support, etc, I don't believe that extra piece of paperwork makes any difference. If the OP lived here, their finances would be considered intermingled, and I'd be looking to protect myself, just in case, married or not.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: cerberusss on September 01, 2013, 05:17:45 AM
This whole thread kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.

Typical American mindset, though. Here in The Netherlands, people live their whole life and have kids together and not be married. You can call that "playing games" and be sad about it, but I've never been happier in my life with this girl.

Here's how we do it. I own the house and take care of payments towards the principle, and several taxes for home owners. The interest, electricity, water, groceries and all other costs, she pays her share (in proportion to our total income). Holidays are also totaled and paid in proportion.

Since she now has the "problem" that she doesn't save into the house, we created an emergency fund for her. Basically I give her a couple of thousand, to be saved into an account on her name only. I also advised her into the different ways she can create her own stache.

What is really funny, is that while I am very open about my finances, she likes to keep it a secret :P I actually don't know what she's worth, and when I straight-out ask, she giggles and says it's not my business :-P
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: arebelspy on September 01, 2013, 07:38:52 AM
Huh.  That's quite interesting.

I still tend to agree with Carrie, and Nord's article.  Worrying together and striving towards the same goal(s) seems important.

Doubly so for someone wanting to FIRE.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: mm1970 on September 01, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
Quote
(Engineers are notorious for making this mistake, although I don't want to get into how I learned that.)

My daughter's in her senior year of that degree program, and she's hoping to be a U.S. Navy submarine nuclear engineer.  For some reason she thinks I made the nuclear engineering part look cool.  It will be absolutely fascinating to see what type of guy she cuts out of the herd to be her spouse.

Nords, you crack me up.  I have to admit, I am looking at this from an engineer's perspective.  And for the record, I picked one of my own.  (Both spouse and I worked at NR.  That was very common among the very few women at NR.)

So I live in Cali, and I have a former coworker who lived with  his girlfriend for 7-10 years or so.  He worked and bought the  house.  She was an artist and a stay at home.  He put her on the house papers.  When he refi'd, he had to take her off because she had no income.  After the refi, he put her back on.

When she left him, she got half the house.

Now, I understand the things that Mr. Macinstashe and Nords are saying with respect to how it comes out - being the bigger income, the one with the power, in a male dominated society.  But I guess I'm not the typical woman and never really have been. 

So in short, I vote for the generous girlfriend discount or the splitting expenses.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: pbkmaine on September 01, 2013, 11:30:46 AM
Nords, I loved what you said about engineers. At financial planning conferences, we sit around the fire at night and tell each other engineer stories :) I do retirement planning workshops, and I can identify with 100% accuracy who the engineers in the audience are. Case in point: I was doing a workshop where I observed that most people have no idea where their last $100 went. A hand goes up in the audience. "I can tell you where every dollar I spent for the last 16 years has gone," he said. "Are you an engineer, by any chance?" I asked. "How on earth did you know?" he said, as the rest of the audience laughed. You are just a different breed.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: desrever on September 01, 2013, 04:06:48 PM
I have a solution for this ... IF your girlfriend can budget $5000 each year for housing.

Here's the idea: no matter what, you split ownership and fees on the house evenly, 50/50. But you work out some financial arrangement that's equitable. You can loan her money at a rate that's equal to the mortgage rate, without having to do too much bookkeeping.

Here's an example: A decade ago my girlfriend and I bought a house together. She had a down payment, but I had no cash to contribute. We decided that she'd put down 20% and be responsible for 3/8 of the mortgage; I would put down %0 and be responsible for 5/8 of the mortgage. We both had equal ownership share in the house. At any time, however, I could give her an amount equal to 1/8 of the mortgage at that point, we would then be splitting things equally. It took me about two years to come up with that balloon payment, and it felt great to be on the same equal footing, and it provided me with an incentive to be somewhat mustachian in my approach to savings.

A ground rule was always that if something went south in the relationship, we'd both move out and sell the house. Knowing that our ownership stake was a fair split made us feel like equal partners. There always seems to be emotional difficulty on both sides of a relationship where one person is subsidizing the other.

With a $700 mortgage payment, your girlfriend's 5/8 share of the mortgage would be $5250 annually. That's not too much. Could she afford that? Is it at all comparable to what her rent would be if she were living alone?

If she can't afford a full 5/8 payment you can pay her share, and keep track of amount of her share on a spreadsheet somewhere. You're loaning her this money. Pretend that these amounts grow at an interest rate equal to the mortgage (in other words, she gradually over time becomes responsible for more of the mortgage balance). If you sell the house and it's appreciated, then her share of the gain is diminished by the amount of this loan.

Everybody wins! You have flexibility, she feels like a partner and owner, and she has a short-term incentive to become an equal financial partner in your relationship -- which means, incidentally, that she won't have to worry about being trapped in a relationship she can't afford to leave. Even the appearance of weird power dynamics like that can make people behave terribly. Equality is the answer.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on September 01, 2013, 08:15:16 PM
Quote
(Engineers are notorious for making this mistake, although I don't want to get into how I learned that.)
My daughter's in her senior year of that degree program, and she's hoping to be a U.S. Navy submarine nuclear engineer.  For some reason she thinks I made the nuclear engineering part look cool.  It will be absolutely fascinating to see what type of guy she cuts out of the herd to be her spouse.
Nords, you crack me up.  I have to admit, I am looking at this from an engineer's perspective.  And for the record, I picked one of my own.  (Both spouse and I worked at NR.  That was very common among the very few women at NR.)
Making snarky Naval Reactors jokes at this stage of my life would just be taking cheap shots to atone for all of those EOOW disqualifications learning experiences of my youth.

But I will say that, more than 20 years after the last time I was awakened on the duty section midwatch to be notified that the NRRO monitor watch was coming down the hatch, seeing the letters "NR" still makes me clench up a little...

The heck with "Blind Man's Bluff", I bet you guys have better stories about your submarine experiences!

"I can tell you where every dollar I spent for the last 16 years has gone," he said. "Are you an engineer, by any chance?" I asked. "How on earth did you know?" he said, as the rest of the audience laughed. You are just a different breed.
Guilty... since 1986.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on September 02, 2013, 01:02:38 AM
I probably shouldn't have asked this question on the internet since it involves complicated relationship issues. I naively thought it would be more simple than that.

Anyway, my girlfriend (and I) doesn't want an old-fashioned relationship. She doesn't want to be the stay-at-home type whose husband/boyfriend pays the bills. We both want to earn money AND do house chores together. She doesn't want to depend on my financial stability. Sometimes she doesn't have much choice, which doesn't bother me but it does bother her. I have given her lots of money when she needed. She says they are loans and she will pay them back. If she does, great. If she doesn't, she can't afford to and that's fine. If we have kids, we will both do it all together, except for the obvious mother-only roles, which I will support in any way I can.

I don't think that is sad at all.

And we are both happy and in love. I was just looking for some ideas on how to divide living expenses. I think some of you assumed there was some turmoil between us when there is not, which may be partly my fault because of the way I worded things.

I'm going to throw an idea out that may make some people mad, but here it goes: I think SOME people who are married feel like they made sacrifices when they got married, so when they hear of people who want the benefits without the sacrifices, it makes them mad. This is not based on what I have read here, but on things married people have said to me. And I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to have the good parts of a relationship and leave out the stuff you don't want. I am prepared to make lots of sacrifices if we have kids, but a solid relationship between lovers should be mutually beneficial and not involve a lot of sacrificing. I also think life used to be a lot harder, so stronger commitment and sacrifice were more important. Life is not that hard anymore. The fact that women are now close to equal in income opportunities is also a big factor. I don't have any marriage experience but I do have the experience of sharing my life with someone for 4 years, which is not a lot but not nothing. Just my inexperienced opinion though ; )

I don't regret my post though because I got some great ideas. We agreed on basing her contribution on what she was paying for her old room with a 20% girlfriend discount. This will cover her utilities and living space. We will split groceries. The house stays in my name. She gets to live for cheaper in a nicer place with me, and I get to live in my house with her and get some help with the expenses. This amount is also a little more than a third of the total, which is what some people here do. And this is just a goal for her contributions. She may not always be able to afford it, which is fine.

Thanks for the help. I will try not to accidentally ask for relationship advice in the future.

Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: shadowmoss on September 02, 2013, 06:13:35 AM
Oh, please do.  I have thoroughy enjoyed reading the answers, which I think said a lot more about the folks doing the typing than about your particular situation.  The cross section it shows was great.  Especially Nords.  :)
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: limeandpepper on September 02, 2013, 07:23:56 AM
Glad you sorted it out Josh.

The funny thing is... if we'd only known that changing the word "rent" to "contribution" would be all it takes for her to be happy to chip in, a lot of the misunderstandings would have been avoided from the beginning... ;)

She doesn't like the idea of paying "rent" to her boyfriend

We agreed on basing her contribution on what she was paying for her old room with a 20% girlfriend discount.

And the original post did paint a much different picture to your most recent update. The girlfriend in the first post sounded like she's reluctant to pay for anything, while in the most recent post she sounds very much interested in being self-sufficient. So having clarified that, it's great that you actually do see eye to eye and there are no dramas.

Anyway, don't be too upset. To be honest I don't think there is much difference between marriage and living together these days, especially in places where de facto couples basically have the same rights as married couples. So in that vein, I don't really think married couples necessarily have to make more sacrifices. People choose their own sacrifices, regardless of their relationship status. Other than that, I agree that couples don't have to be married to be serious about each other. If someone is the sort of person who likes the idea of marriage and wants to get married, but doesn't want to marry their partner, then yeah, they're not fully committed yet. But if someone has never really cared much about marriage, then whether they want to marry their partner is not a reliable indication of how they feel about that person. I think a lot of people who look down on non-married couples are the "marrying types", and are unable to wrap their minds around the concept that couples who aren't that interested in marriage can actually absolutely adore each other and want to be together for life. Or to put it simply: "marrying types" think marriage = commitment, while "non-marrying types" think commitment = commitment.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on September 02, 2013, 07:47:40 AM
If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.
A second-millennium humor "columnist" (Erma Bombeck) used to write about that:
http://www.thelawcollaborative.com/marriage-vs-living-together.htm

I gotta agree with this. It sounds to me like the OP would like to get married, the GF is more reluctant. I would just say, "lets come up with a portion of the home expenses we think it's fair of you to pay, and when we get married half of this is yours". Then it's on her.  But what do I know?  We got married in college 21 years ago without a cent to our names.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Carrie on September 02, 2013, 09:30:01 AM
OP, just as you have no experience in a long-lasting loving marriage that has taken no sacrifice, I have no experience in a long-term loving & committed live-in boyfriend/girlfriend relationship.

I suppose I'm the marrying type.  The thought of keeping finances separate has no appeal to me.  Everything we have earned is joint, everything we have invested is invested for both of our sakes.  There have been times where hubs has been the main earner, and there have been times where it has been equal, and eventually the plan is to swing it so that he's the one with the part time job and I'm making most of the money.  It doesn't really matter, though, because from day 1 we have been working together.  We've never had the quibble about contribution or ownership of various assets.  When there is no plan for ever being apart (plus the protection of the law), there's no reason to worry about who makes what or who pays a percentage of what and to whom.  It all goes in the pot for our mutual benefit.  I can't tell you how much freedom, contentment and happiness we both derive from this (joyous) partnership. 

It is wrong of me to assume it is difficult to achieve this type of commitment without marriage.  In reading the original question, it just didn't sound like the commitment was there, but apparently the relationship is much more stable than I gathered.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: arebelspy on September 02, 2013, 09:32:16 AM
I will try not to accidentally ask for relationship advice in the future.

Apparently you took offense at some of the answers?

I'm not sure what you expected - people on the internet not to have different opinions or argue?

Try not to take other people's opinions personally - I don't think anyone specifically was trying to attack you personally, just present some ideas to think about.  :)
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on September 02, 2013, 10:19:09 AM
I will try not to accidentally ask for relationship advice in the future.

Apparently you took offense at some of the answers?

I meant that to be funny. Maybe it wasn't, though I thought it was. I think it also acknowledges that I asked for this, so I agree with you there. I wasn't offended, I just felt like I should explain my situation since some assumptions were being made. When I say I'll be more careful in the future, it's because I didn't intend to put myself in a situation where I felt the need to defend my relationship, especially to people I don't know.

No harm done, and I'm not upset or even annoyed about anything said. It's been a good talk, and I also learned that I'm not as good at communicating through text as I thought. I think if we were all sitting around talking about this, the tone of my voice would be much more light-hearted than the tone of my text.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Paul der Krake on September 02, 2013, 10:33:57 AM
Talking about relationships is notoriously difficult, even more so when it's with strangers from the intertubes and you don't have someone's body language or tone available to infer what's left unsaid.

Any post of this thread can be  interpreted them in two or more completely different ways depending on your mood, that person's avatar, or your blood sugar (I for one am always very cranky before lunch).

Good job everyone for not making OP break up with this girlfriend!
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: arebelspy on September 02, 2013, 10:35:56 AM
I will try not to accidentally ask for relationship advice in the future.

Apparently you took offense at some of the answers?

I meant that to be funny. Maybe it wasn't, though I thought it was. I think it also acknowledges that I asked for this, so I agree with you there. I wasn't offended, I just felt like I should explain my situation since some assumptions were being made. When I say I'll be more careful in the future, it's because I didn't intend to put myself in a situation where I felt the need to defend my relationship, especially to people I don't know.

No harm done, and I'm not upset or even annoyed about anything said. It's been a good talk, and I also learned that I'm not as good at communicating through text as I thought. I think if we were all sitting around talking about this, the tone of my voice would be much more light-hearted than the tone of my text.

Gotcha, I totally misread that.  My bad.  :)
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Daleth on September 02, 2013, 01:16:51 PM
To be honest I don't think there is much difference between marriage and living together these days, especially in places where de facto couples basically have the same rights as married couples.

Just in case you're referring to common-law marriage, I just want to point out that there are hardly any states anymore that even recognize common-law marriage at all, and in the few states where it still exists, you're not "common-law married" unless you literally consider yourselves husband and wife (I'm using gendered terms bc gay common law marriage doesn't exist), publicly introduce each other as husband and wife, etc. etc. Merely living together, sharing assets and having kids doesn't cut it. A "de facto marriage" has no legal existence or weight at all, that I'm aware of, unless (1) you're in a state where common law marriage exists AND (2) you represent to the world that you are husband and wife.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: limeandpepper on September 02, 2013, 07:25:37 PM
^I did say some places. I live in Australia.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on September 02, 2013, 11:02:24 PM
In reading the original question, it just didn't sound like the commitment was there, but apparently the relationship is much more stable than I gathered.

Yes, I unintentionally set a negative tone with my first post. That wasn't even how the actual conversation went, I was just trying to present both of our view points. I probably should have presented it as a pros and cons from both sides, rather than a dialogue. The issue was actually very easy for us to work out, a big part in thanks to the great ideas I received in this post.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my views about relationships. Different strokes for different folks : )
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: ShortInSeattle on October 22, 2013, 08:24:25 PM
This whole thread kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.
Maybe it's that I'm old-fashioned, but I just don't understand living with someone and loving someone without wanting to make an official commitment.  Either you love them with all your heart, or you don't.  If you don't, don't cohabitate (unless you do it as roommates and have a lease contract).  If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.  Married people working towards the same goal (building wealth) can be tremendously successful, but two people who don't share the same financial goals and who have no long-term investment in the relationship could lead to disaster.

I wouldn't say that this thread makes me sad, but overall I share your sentiment.  I know there are people who find happiness in long term relationships without marriage, but it all sounds so complicated to me. 

Marriage doesn't guarantee happiness, but if you are already happy and committed, why not get married? There is simplicity and power in living a fully shared life.

Then again... to each their own. :)

Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: sleepyguy on October 23, 2013, 08:40:37 AM
I agree with this but we not so much the marriage part... just an OPTION to be honest.  I moved in with my GF after 2yrs... we've been together now 13yrs and have 2 kids... not married (Common Law under Canadian law).  We knew at the start that we would be spending rest of our lives together, we didn't need to announce it or publicize it... we're comfortable with our decision.

This whole thread kind of makes me sad.
I got married while at university and my loving husband paid the rent and helped towards school expenses that were not covered by scholarships.
If you love the girl, marry her.  If not, quit playing games and go your separate ways.
Maybe it's that I'm old-fashioned, but I just don't understand living with someone and loving someone without wanting to make an official commitment.  Either you love them with all your heart, or you don't.  If you don't, don't cohabitate (unless you do it as roommates and have a lease contract).  If you do, marry and start your life together building lots and lots of assets together.  Married people working towards the same goal (building wealth) can be tremendously successful, but two people who don't share the same financial goals and who have no long-term investment in the relationship could lead to disaster.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: smalllife on October 23, 2013, 10:57:04 AM
Marriage doesn't guarantee happiness, but if you are already happy and committed, why not get married? There is simplicity and power in living a fully shared life.

Then again... to each their own. :)

You can have a fully shared life without marriage . . . . the two are not synonymous (and given the divorce rate, I would hesitate to even say they are correlated).  Marriage is a legal certificate, usually obtained by two people who intend to share their life together.  Commitment and love have nothing to do with that piece of paper.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: gimp on October 23, 2013, 11:42:04 AM
Loved reading your perspective, Nords.

Dating another engineer alleviates the issue somewhat. She sometimes gives up and asks me to do something, then later copies a more efficient strategy. But suggesting one off the bat rarely goes over well... whether it's cooking or board layout, gotta wait for the opportune moment and not jump in.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: CommonCents on October 23, 2013, 12:05:37 PM
You can have a fully shared life without marriage . . . . the two are not synonymous (and given the divorce rate, I would hesitate to even say they are correlated).  Marriage is a legal certificate, usually obtained by two people who intend to share their life together.  Commitment and love have nothing to do with that piece of paper.

I agree that you can love and commit to a person without a marriage certificate, but I wanted to challenge the idea that marriage is "just" a legal certificate.  It gives a variety of rights: to inheritance, to benefits such as social security and health insurance, to make health care decisions, and so forth.  See here for a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States.  You can create legal documents to accomplish some these goals, but it is costly.  For example, if you will your money to a non-spouse, there are significant tax ramifications (see the recent Supreme Court decision on this one!) in addition to the legal costs for drawing up these documents.

In addition, some believe in other aspects of marriage such as religious or social.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Nords on October 23, 2013, 12:06:51 PM
Loved reading your perspective, Nords.
Dating another engineer alleviates the issue somewhat. She sometimes gives up and asks me to do something, then later copies a more efficient strategy. But suggesting one off the bat rarely goes over well... whether it's cooking or board layout, gotta wait for the opportune moment and not jump in.
Thanks!

When I married my spouse I had no idea that a few years later I'd be living in Hawaii and sharing a beautiful home in with two hot chicks.  A couple decades of that lifestyle has taught me that the longer a guy can keep his mouth shut, the better he gets along with everyone.  Even when it's plain for all to see that his idea is clearly better...
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: smalllife on October 23, 2013, 12:13:57 PM
You can have a fully shared life without marriage . . . . the two are not synonymous (and given the divorce rate, I would hesitate to even say they are correlated).  Marriage is a legal certificate, usually obtained by two people who intend to share their life together.  Commitment and love have nothing to do with that piece of paper.

I agree that you can love and commit to a person without a marriage certificate, but I wanted to challenge the idea that marriage is "just" a legal certificate.  It gives a variety of rights: to inheritance, to benefits such as social security and health insurance, to make health care decisions, and so forth.  See here for a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States.  You can create legal documents to accomplish some these goals, but it is costly.  For example, if you will your money to a non-spouse, there are significant tax ramifications (see the recent Supreme Court decision on this one!) in addition to the legal costs for drawing up these documents.

In addition, some believe in other aspects of marriage such as religious or social.

It's funny, because your response is usually what I say in these conversations.  I was specifically challenging the idea that a couple cannot have a joint life, shared commitments, love, and mutual respect without marriage.   For the social component, which is what I was referring to, the certificate does not make one couple's relationship better than another's.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: jrhampt on October 23, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
eh, I've done both.  My spouse and I have been married for 6 years, but we lived together for about 8 years prior to getting married.  We have always had separate finances (and names), and this did not change with marriage.  There were some advantages to getting married, namely: more options for health insurance, my family was a lot happier and fully accepted him into the family, and now if I lose a family member, he gets to go to the funeral with me using bereavement leave, and vice versa.  I don't feel that we're any more committed to each other than we ever were, though.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on January 30, 2014, 07:21:23 PM
I forgot about this thread. Here's an update in case anyone is interested:

Everything is going great! GF still pays rent/contributions (whatever you want to call it) at discounted rate. Neither of us feel weird about it; we actually have fun negotiating who is going to pay how much for other stuff too. She's back in school now, so she will just pay what she can afford.

Some couples just lump all the money together and don't worry about it. We like to keep ours separate and make sure both of us feel we are getting a good deal. I guess they are sort of opposite solutions to the same problem of not letting money hurt a relationship.

Here's some irony: she wants to get married. So all you people telling me to just marry her may get your way, haha! She
offered to do a prenup. We'd both need attorneys for it to be valid in my state. Don't want to do that, but I also don't want to mix my assets with her debts. Why can't you just check a box on the marriage certificate that says you'll keep your stuff separate? I'll figure something out. I still don't see much benefit to marriage, but I want to make my lady happy. And even though I don't care much for the institution, I am honored that she wants me to be her husband.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: purplish on January 30, 2014, 08:25:15 PM
My current boyfriend has a signed rental agreement from me, and pays me rent based on current going price in the area.  My last boyfriend, who was going to live with me at my other property, I was going to have a rental agreement with as well, but split all bills 50/50.  Sound cold?  Guess what, it clears up any potential issues, and both people are contributing.  I wouldn't want to live with someone who's looking for a free ride.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on January 30, 2014, 08:40:19 PM
My current boyfriend has a signed rental agreement from me, and pays me rent based on current going price in the area.  My last boyfriend, who was going to live with me at my other property, I was going to have a rental agreement with as well, but split all bills 50/50.  Sound cold?  Guess what, it clears up any potential issues, and both people are contributing.  I wouldn't want to live with someone who's looking for a free ride.

If my GF owned a house that we lived in together, I'd be fine with signing a rental agreement. A lot of people don't realize how easy it is to forget the terms of verbal agreements.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Daleth on January 30, 2014, 08:53:54 PM
Here's some irony: she wants to get married. So all you people telling me to just marry her may get your way, haha! She
offered to do a prenup. We'd both need attorneys for it to be valid in my state. Don't want to do that, but I also don't want to mix my assets with her debts. Why can't you just check a box on the marriage certificate that says you'll keep your stuff separate? I'll figure something out. I still don't see much benefit to marriage, but I want to make my lady happy. And even though I don't care much for the institution, I am honored that she wants me to be her husband.

I doubt you need a prenup, but you should both go spend an hour talking to a lawyer just to get clear on how your state views each spouse's assets and debt. In most or possibly all states, the debts that spouse A incurred BEFORE the marriage will remain spouse A's debts--they will not become spouse B's debts; spouse B will not be liable for them and no creditor can come after spouse B for them. (See link 1 below).

Also, in non-community property states, even debts that spouse A incurs AFTER the marriage are only spouse A's debts; creditors can't come after spouse B for them. There are exceptions--for instance, if spouse A gets a mortgage to provide a home for the family, or runs up credit card debt buying groceries for the family, that might be considered spouse B's debts. (See link 2 below). Are you in a community property state? How does your state treat debt incurred by one spouse during marriage? Go to a lawyer and see. The same kinds of lawyers who handle prenups and divorces are the ones with the knowledge to educate you guys on this.

Finally, if you get married and then unfortunately get divorced, even in non-community property states courts may split marital assets and debts (ones incurred AFTER marriage by either spouse) however they deem fair--for instance, I think it's fairly common for courts to say, "well, after the couple got married, spouse A got student loans in order to further his/her career and bring in more income for the family, and then spent years supporting the family on that higher income, so either spouse B has to pay off some of those debts, or spouse B has to get somewhat less than 50% of the marital assets so as to compensate spouse A for that."

Premarital debts: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/debt/wife-not-married-to-spouse-s-old-debts-1.aspx

Debts incurred during marriage: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/debt-marriage-owe-spouse-debts-29572.html


Everything is going great! GF still pays rent/contributions (whatever you want to call it) at discounted rate. Neither of us feel weird about it; we actually have fun negotiating who is going to pay how much for other stuff too. She's back in school now, so she will just pay what she can afford.

Some couples just lump all the money together and don't worry about it. We like to keep ours separate and make sure both of us feel we are getting a good deal. I guess they are sort of opposite solutions to the same problem of not letting money hurt a relationship.

Someone (including me) might have said this already--I don't want to re-read the whole thread to check--but for future reference, when she's out of school and working, here's some food for thought: some people don't think it's truly fair for couples to split household expenses 50-50 unless the two of them both earn about the same amount of money.

My DH and I split expenses proportionally to our incomes, because we both think that WHAT TRULY MATTERS IS TIME--in other words, we should split time (a.k.a. time spent working) equally. So, for example, if I have to work 7 days to pay my part of our mortgage, then he should have to work 7 days to pay his part of our mortgage. I earn twice as much as him (such is life as a corporate lawyer), so if we split expenses 50-50 I'd be done paying "my half" by like the tenth of the month, while he would have to keep working until the 20th to pay "his half"--and thus I would have 20 days worth of salary to do with as I please every month--to invest, spend, whatever--while he only had 10 days. How is that fair? Why should one of us work twice as long as the other to pay for "their half" of our joint expenses? So to be truly fair, we split all our joint expenses (mortgage, utilities, groceries...) 66% (me)/33% (him). That way, although we contribute very different amounts of MONEY to our expenses, we each contribute the same amount of work, a.k.a. the same amount of time.

And this was, BTW, my idea--I just don't think it's fair for me to have orders of magnitude more "spare money" than him, or fair to him to have to work twice as long to pay for the things we share, just because I went into a career that pays a ton. And this setup also gives us a lot more flexibility; as our job situation changes, we just do the math and recalibrate how much each of us pays. So we don't have to look at, for instance, whether this really exciting dream of a job opportunity for spouse A would still enable spouse A to pay "his/her half" of the expenses; instead we look at whether we, as a couple, can pay all our expenses (by recalibrating the percentages) while allowing spouse A to pursue his/her dream.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: bikebum on January 30, 2014, 10:12:19 PM
Daleth, thanks for the suggestions. I am pretty certain I live in a community property state. I think you are right about assets/debts acquired before vs. after marriage. Here's a question though: Say Jill is a working girl who owns a house and contributes to retirement accounts and Jack is in college. Jack and Jill get married and intend to share expenses once Jack graduates. But Jack can't get a good job, even though he is smart and ambitious, so Jill pays for everything. If they later divorce, wouldn't Jack be entitled to half of the assets Jill accumulated during the marriage, including principal on mortgage payments and retirement contributions? So Jill would have paid all the bills and then have to hand over half of said assets to Jack, maybe pay alimony too? Sounds like a crappy deal for Jill. Am I missing something?

I remember the part about dividing expenses based on income rather than 50/50. Sounds like a good idea. So do you guys work about the same number of hours? I guess if you don't you can divvy it up based on hourly pay rather than total income. I think this would be more fair if one spouses job demands more hours than the others.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: EUmustache on January 31, 2014, 05:25:00 AM
Here's some irony: she wants to get married. So all you people telling me to just marry her may get your way, haha! She
offered to do a prenup. We'd both need attorneys for it to be valid in my state. Don't want to do that, but I also don't want to mix my assets with her debts. Why can't you just check a box on the marriage certificate that says you'll keep your stuff separate? I'll figure something out. I still don't see much benefit to marriage, but I want to make my lady happy. And even though I don't care much for the institution, I am honored that she wants me to be her husband.

Here's a question though: Say Jill is a working girl who owns a house and contributes to retirement accounts and Jack is in college. Jack and Jill get married and intend to share expenses once Jack graduates. But Jack can't get a good job, even though he is smart and ambitious, so Jill pays for everything. If they later divorce, wouldn't Jack be entitled to half of the assets Jill accumulated during the marriage, including principal on mortgage payments and retirement contributions? So Jill would have paid all the bills and then have to hand over half of said assets to Jack, maybe pay alimony too? Sounds like a crappy deal for Jill. Am I missing something?

You seem to be forgetting that a marriage goes both ways. You support her. She supports you. This may not always be financial support. If you're so worried about getting a 'crappy deal' or 'not wanting to take on her debts' I'm wondering if you should go through with it just to 'make [your] lady happy.' What if you loose your job, or get sick and you need to depend on her income for a while or for the rest of your lives. Do you think she'd say she's too focused on paying down HER student loan debt (because lord knows you didn't want to take it on) to help with that mortgage (your debt) that would need to be paid? The tables can turn - would you want her posting on this forum saying she doesn't want to be responsible for the mortgage her (possibly future) husband took out before they were married if things went south? Full disclosure: I brought more student loan debt to my marriage than my husband did, and we've combined our finances. And no, I don't think EVERY couple needs to combine finances - it doesn't work for everyone, but I think in most cases it makes the most sense. But I think you need to take a closer look at your attitude towards what is "mine" and what is "hers" - if the debt is always hers, will the house always be yours? Know that the way things are now, may not be representative of how they'll always be.

Anyway, my girlfriend (and I) doesn't want an old-fashioned relationship. She doesn't want to be the stay-at-home type whose husband/boyfriend pays the bills. We both want to earn money AND do house chores together. She doesn't want to depend on my financial stability. Sometimes she doesn't have much choice, which doesn't bother me but it does bother her. I have given her lots of money when she needed. She says they are loans and she will pay them back. If she does, great. If she doesn't, she can't afford to and that's fine. If we have kids, we will both do it all together, except for the obvious mother-only roles, which I will support in any way I can.

I get this. This is a pretty accurate description my husband’s and my approach to our relationship. We are partners. Full stop. However, that doesn’t mean we don’t lean on each other from time to time. He had a great work opportunity that we moved for, and that meant I had to give up my job and income. I hated that he was the primary breadwinner for a while, but as his partner I supported that opportunity and as my partner he took the financial lead. But since I quit my job, I couldn't afford my student loan payments. However, I never would have quit my job had it not been for my husband. So until I found a new job, and resumed contributing to our joint account, it was mostly his income that paid the student loan payments. Does that mean he "took on my debt?" No, I very much still see that debt as primarily my responsibility, but he also sees it as his responsibility. Because we are partners and have shared goals it would not be beneficial to either of us if those payments did not get made. Bottom line, if the roles were reversed, I'd be fine with covering his payments if I was the primary bread winner for a while. And I'm sure your girlfriend feels that way about your mortgage if something were to happen to your job.

My apologies if this sounds like a rant, but I guess some of your posts struck a chord with me and perhaps even hit a little close to home. That said, this is coming from my own personal experiences (and thus personal bias), so maybe take a step back and look at your own relationship through a different lens and see if it adds any value.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Daleth on January 31, 2014, 08:41:55 AM
Daleth, thanks for the suggestions. I am pretty certain I live in a community property state. I think you are right about assets/debts acquired before vs. after marriage. Here's a question though: Say Jill is a working girl who owns a house and contributes to retirement accounts and Jack is in college. Jack and Jill get married and intend to share expenses once Jack graduates. But Jack can't get a good job, even though he is smart and ambitious, so Jill pays for everything. If they later divorce, wouldn't Jack be entitled to half of the assets Jill accumulated during the marriage, including principal on mortgage payments and retirement contributions? So Jill would have paid all the bills and then have to hand over half of said assets to Jack, maybe pay alimony too? Sounds like a crappy deal for Jill. Am I missing something?

I remember the part about dividing expenses based on income rather than 50/50. Sounds like a good idea. So do you guys work about the same number of hours? I guess if you don't you can divvy it up based on hourly pay rather than total income. I think this would be more fair if one spouses job demands more hours than the others.

It would take a little more math if one of you worked distinctly more hours than the other on a regular basis. That said, if one of you is working 40hrs and the other is working 15hrs but is also doing all the housework and/or taking care of your child, that's a different story.

You would need to talk to a lawyer in your state to get an answer to your first question. Sorry--being a lawyer I know enough to know when you need to talk to someone other than me.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: electriceagle on January 31, 2014, 10:50:39 AM
You didn't ask for advice on dating someone with a large sense of entitlement and rather little respect for you. You didn't ask for that advice and I'm not going to give it; I won't say one word.

I will recommend that you check out whether your state has common law marriage. If so, you may already be married.

To me, it sounds like you are "dating" not "partners". My advice is to create a written roommate agreement  -- write it as if you were getting a roommate from craigslist -- with a rather low price. Roommates pay a portion of your principal without acquiring interest in the property.


Edit to reflect later posts: Later posts portray a relationship that sounds more stable than earlier posts.

> Why can't you just check a box on the marriage certificate that says you'll keep your stuff separate?

They have this in France. S'appelle le pacte civil de solidarite.  About 40% of partnered couples opt for PACS rather than marriage; they choose couple-by-couple how to arrange their stuff.
Title: Re: Share ownership of my house with girlfriend?
Post by: Daleth on January 31, 2014, 07:10:55 PM
I will recommend that you check out whether your state has common law marriage. If so, you may already be married.

MYTHBUSTER TIME! Even the nine US states that still recognize common-law marriages have a key requirement: the couple has to consider themselves married and hold themselves out as married, i.e., describe each other socially as my husband/my wife; typically holding themselves out as married also includes having the same last name and filing tax returns together. Long story short, just living together doesn't cut it. For that matter, even having kids doesn't cut it.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx

And some states that you may see in lists of states that recognize it actually don't recognize any new common-law marriages; they have laws that say common-law marriages created before X date count, but later ones don't. (For instance, that date is 10/10/1991 in Ohio and 1/1/2005 in Pennsylvania.)
Here's a link that refers to that:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/common-law-marriage.aspx