Poll

How do you handle your finances in a marriage?

Separate
Joint
Joint but with monthly "fun" money (or whatever you call it)
Other
I'm single

Author Topic: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows  (Read 23477 times)

Posthumane

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2014, 03:22:08 PM »
I think that for many couples keeping finances separate actually helps the marriage work out. If you combine all of your finances then essentially every purchase is a joint purchase and therefore should be a joint decision, or at least open to veto by both parties. If, on the other hand, you both earn your money separately and have different ideas of what you would like to spend it on then you are free to do so as long as you are still upholding your end of paying for shared expenses.
And this is usually how problems start....should?  Based on what rule book?    You're not the arbitor of my marriage....I can assure you of that.  In addition,  DH and I are the experts on what should and should not happen for us in our organziation  which by the way I have over 29 years more experience in running that you do
I obviously did not word my original statement very well since what you understood it to mean is not really what I had meant by it. I was not talking about your marriage or what you or other couples should be doing, my statement was in reference to my relationship and so I will try to reword it:

If we had all of our finances combined then I would feel that each time I made a significant purchase outside of what I consider joint expenses (such as if I wanted to say buy a new tool or a part for the airplane) I would feel that such purchases would need to be a joint decision which for me would add a layer of hassle. Same thing the other way for her purchases. As it stands now, while we do discuss the merits of major (or sometimes even very minor) purchases, if we do not agree on something it usually comes down to "well, I don't agree, but it is your money that you earned so do what you like."

While you may have a longer running relationship than mine, our setup has been working for us for a number of years (btw, just because we are not married does not mean that we have not been together any length of time and have no experience). I would suggest you try to be a little less sensitive to random posts on the internet which were intended at no one person in particular.

As to how we handle groceries and such: she works very close to a safeway and often stops there to buy things like fresh fruits and veggies that she thinks we need, several times a week in small quantities, which she pays for from her account. I go to the costco and make a big run for staples which I think we need every few weeks, which I pay for from my account. On average we end up spending similar amounts over a year.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:24:44 PM by Posthumane »

gobius

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2014, 03:43:52 PM »

Obviously I agree with all the others who have said that maintaining some separate finances/accounts or having a prenup is not "planning for failure," any more than having a smoke alarm is planning for a fire or having insurance is planning for an accident. It's a prudent hedge against catastrophe, no matter how likely or unlikely.

Also, if I substituted the word "activities" for "finances", I think it would seem ridiculous to say "we have to do all activities jointly, otherwise we're just maintaining separate lives and planning to divorce one day." Maintaining separate finances is really no different, for all the very good reasons others have pointed out.

@KingCoin, I think you laid it out very well

+1.  Your insurance analogy is one I've used before for getting a pre-nup.  My friend and his wife tried to say that it was because we don't trust each other.  I said that it's like having catastrophic health insurance.  I don't think I'll get in a car wreck or get cancer anytime soon, but that doesn't mean I don't prepare for it in case it comes up.  Others see it differently; no big deal.

Is it that I don't trust her, deep down?  Perhaps.  I trust the girl I know now, but things change, and I've seen too many people get burned.  I actually told my fiancee (before we got engaged, of course) that I never wanted to get married because I like to save/invest (more than almost everyone I've met in real life, although par for the course on these forums) and don't want to lose a substantial portion of that money if I get divorced.  She then asked about a pre-nup.

Ironically, my friend was close to divorce at one point, and I could see it happening in the future.  His wife strikes me as the type who would be ruthless too (he's even hinted at this trait and other red flags when it's just me and him).  My fiancee would probably want everything to be fair, so I probably don't need it.

I will say that neither of us plans to be a stay-at-home parent (if we have kids) unless one of us is financially independent on his/her own (I would reach that stage first, most likely).  If we have kids, we would probably combine finances at that time.

MayDay

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »
Again, it never occurred to me that our set up is rare.  Is it really?

I don't think it is. This is the setup we have as well. If I had to guess, I would say that most people who say they have joint accounts really do have 100% joint accounts. Not all, of course, but in general.

I am the one who said we have individual "fun money".  But it isn't separate accounts- it is just 50$ budgeted to each of us to spend on whatever we please.  It comes out of the joint account.  So things can definitely be very grey.  Does that count as separate finances.?   I don't think so but maybe some do.

homehandymum

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2014, 01:28:42 AM »
Again, it never occurred to me that our set up is rare.  Is it really?

I don't think it is. This is the setup we have as well. If I had to guess, I would say that most people who say they have joint accounts really do have 100% joint accounts. Not all, of course, but in general.

Us too.  100% joint.  When we were younger we used to withdraw $20 each week each for 'pocket money', but more as a self-limiting and budgeting exercise - so I could buy a coffee and he could buy Magic cards and we wouldn't resent each other for it, or need to track those little expenses.

We're over it now, and we're comfortable with what the other person spends.  We have a courtesy arrangement that if there is a $250 plus amount to be spent, we consult each other on whether or not it is really necessary, but in 13 years we've never had a money argument.

mh1361

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2014, 06:20:13 AM »
As far as the insurance policy goes, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. If you take it even further, could you apply it to kids? You think you'll enjoy having kids and that you'll be a good parent, but if not, they can always go to an orphanage. I'd be interested to hear what some of the other posters that have joint finances think of the insurance analogy.

hybrid

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2014, 06:49:53 AM »
I agree with the poster who noted that a marriage is similar to a business arrangement and there are different ways to manage that. In our case everything is joint but I am in charge of the finances. I'm strong there and the missus isn't, so someone has to take the reins. When it comes to big purchases, we (almost) always discuss that jointly. Frankly speaking, I rarely spend more than $100 on anything without letting the missus know about it first. It's not asking permission per se, but I am spending money from our joint pool and I feel obligated to discuss that with my "business partner" first. Our system has its difficulties, most obviously what to do when we're not on the same page.

I knew a couple that had separate finances and there were flaws in their arrangement as well. He was a very traditional guy who measured himself in part by how much money he made, which was considerably more than his schoolteacher wife. So he was quite (read - too) proud of the fact that he took care of all the major bills while she took care of all the day-to-day spending. She wasn't strong with finances either so again, someone had to steer the ship, but it was far from a perfect system. He became the stereotypical patriarch and she became the deferring wife. That led to some less than great financial decisions that I think two people working as equals from a joint account could have avoided. Since he makes a very nice income I doubt he ever spotted the flaws I did, their spending was always obscenely wasteful yet their bottom line was always just fine. They were the classic examples of big incomes papering over poor spending habits.

For us it is just much simpler to have everything lumped into joint accounts. Why have two AMEX accounts when one will do nicely?

Spork

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2014, 07:30:30 AM »
Frankly speaking, I rarely spend more than $100 on anything without letting the missus know about it first. It's not asking permission per se, but I am spending money from our joint pool and I feel obligated to discuss that with my "business partner" first.

$100 sort of became our "unspoken agreement" as well.  In fact, we've gotten to the point that we've spoken about our unspoken agreement.  (Does that nullify an unspoken contract?)   Like you: Not because it really matters or because it's permission.  It's just a heads up.  "I'm buying a nail gun.  It's $150."

And in our "totally joint monies" we do have small amounts of "separate monies" that are only delineated by how it is categorized in gnucash.  If, for example, someone is given $40 for a birthday gift -- it goes into the big pile and gets tagged with "wife's money" or "Spork's money".

Frankies Girl

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2014, 07:48:49 AM »
Technically we're joint accounts, but we have two joint checking accounts with one as my primary and one his. We each control our own money (direct deposits) and have a single shared savings account. All bills are paid out of my account since we're saving the husband's full paycheck minus his monthly fun money. Works great for us.

And my wedding vows were nothing like that stuff at the beginning. We actually wrote our own and included a line from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"  (the apple of my eye, the cream in my coffee...) among other things.

matchewed

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2014, 07:55:51 AM »
As far as the insurance policy goes, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. If you take it even further, could you apply it to kids? You think you'll enjoy having kids and that you'll be a good parent, but if not, they can always go to an orphanage. I'd be interested to hear what some of the other posters that have joint finances think of the insurance analogy.

I think you're missing the point of the analogy.

Having insurance does not make it more likely an accident will happen. Having separate finances does not make it more likely a separation will occur. Having the ability to put your child up for adoption does not make it more likely that you will. That's the point of the analogy.

gobius

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2014, 07:56:24 AM »
As far as the insurance policy goes, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. If you take it even further, could you apply it to kids? You think you'll enjoy having kids and that you'll be a good parent, but if not, they can always go to an orphanage. I'd be interested to hear what some of the other posters that have joint finances think of the insurance analogy.

A joint contract between two consenting adults is different than having a child who depends on you.  The child didn't come into this world as an informed adult but (likely) rather because you wanted him/her to and obviously without his/her consent.  A child doesn't have the maturity or skills (yet) to succeed in the world and it's the parents' responsibility to make sure that happens.  Apples and oranges.

I think the insurance analogy holds; perhaps others would see it as an analogy to insurance that they would never buy, such as a premium health care plan that covers everything and has a low deductible or a $5M term life insurance policy (although a pre-nup only costs a few hundred dollars up-front).  However, you didn't give a compelling reason why the insurance analogy doesn't apply.  Even your orphanage analogy is an insurance policy in a way, although I saw it as a bit of a strawman, as explained above.

Facts are facts:  a high percentage of marriages end in divorce and I'm willing to bet that almost none of them think the marriage will end in divorce.  I think my fiancee and I have a great thing going; I'd be so bold to say that we are less likely to divorce than 95% of couples out there (we have similar goals, very similar interests, get along very well, etc).  However, I also know that my perception is biased and probably no different than anyone who gets married and ends up getting slaughtered in a divorce.  If that makes me overly cynical, so be it I guess.

As I said in previous posts, having kids and having a stay-at-home parent changes things, at least it would for my fiancee and me (you can cancel/change pre-nups any time you want).  If two working parents with decent careers have kids and still split finances/keep a pre-nup, that is their prerogative.  It would be a little tougher but with modern banking it probably isn't that hard.

mh1361

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2014, 08:22:04 AM »
As far as the insurance policy goes, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. If you take it even further, could you apply it to kids? You think you'll enjoy having kids and that you'll be a good parent, but if not, they can always go to an orphanage. I'd be interested to hear what some of the other posters that have joint finances think of the insurance analogy.

I think you're missing the point of the analogy.

Having insurance does not make it more likely an accident will happen. Having separate finances does not make it more likely a separation will occur. Having the ability to put your child up for adoption does not make it more likely that you will. That's the point of the analogy.

I understand that's the point of the analogy. The point I was making is that if that's part of the decision process, then maybe it's not the time to make that decision. For example, "Let's have kids, worst comes to worst they can go up for adoption." That doesn't sound like people who are ready to have kids. Similarly for marriage, "Let's get married, but since the divorce rate is around 50% we should make plans in case that happens." If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner. Again I'm NOT saying that separate finances means that you are preparing for divorce. Several people have already explained why it's just the practical way to do it. What I am saying is that if you are thinking about getting married, and when it comes to finances, your motivation between having joint or separate finances is down the right what would make a divorce easier, then maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about that. And no, I'm NOT saying that everyone who decides to have separate finances through that motivation will end up getting divorced. Obviously, and thankfully, it works out well for some people.

matchewed

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2014, 10:18:22 AM »
As far as the insurance policy goes, it seems a little like apples and oranges to me. If you take it even further, could you apply it to kids? You think you'll enjoy having kids and that you'll be a good parent, but if not, they can always go to an orphanage. I'd be interested to hear what some of the other posters that have joint finances think of the insurance analogy.

I think you're missing the point of the analogy.

Having insurance does not make it more likely an accident will happen. Having separate finances does not make it more likely a separation will occur. Having the ability to put your child up for adoption does not make it more likely that you will. That's the point of the analogy.

I understand that's the point of the analogy. The point I was making is that if that's part of the decision process, then maybe it's not the time to make that decision. For example, "Let's have kids, worst comes to worst they can go up for adoption." That doesn't sound like people who are ready to have kids. Similarly for marriage, "Let's get married, but since the divorce rate is around 50% we should make plans in case that happens." If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner. Again I'm NOT saying that separate finances means that you are preparing for divorce. Several people have already explained why it's just the practical way to do it. What I am saying is that if you are thinking about getting married, and when it comes to finances, your motivation between having joint or separate finances is down the right what would make a divorce easier, then maybe you should spend a little more time thinking about that. And no, I'm NOT saying that everyone who decides to have separate finances through that motivation will end up getting divorced. Obviously, and thankfully, it works out well for some people.

I think you may be oversimplifying the process of deciding whether to keep finances separate or joint. Unless it is a marriage of convenience I'm pretty sure most people don't walk into the decision process saying "so let's keep our finances separate for when we divorce." They're going to take a broader approach that will take into account their feelings of divorce and the likelihood of it; as well as many other factors such as income disparity, debts, credit worthiness, and financial/life goals. Or at least they should take that broader approach. :)

Narrowing it down to a "So do you think we'll divorce?" or a "Because divorce is prevalent we should have separate finances." as the sole reason why people would maintain separate finances is narrowing it down too much for this sort of topic. There should never be one sole motivator for anything. People should look at their decision making from many angles.

Quote
If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner.

If I admit that there are chances I could be hit by a car then I have higher chances of being hit by a car?

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

Spork

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2014, 10:21:20 AM »

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

You know that affair with Anna is likely going to end in a divorce, right?  :)

matchewed

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2014, 10:25:31 AM »

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

You know that affair with Anna is likely going to end in a divorce, right?  :)

Not if I don't admit there's a chance. ;)

The GF would be pretty pissed though.

Psychstache

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2014, 10:58:51 AM »
Quote from: Spork link=topic=15606.msg249401#musg249401 date=1395418880

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

You know that affair with Anna is likely going to end in a divorce, right?  :)

Not if I don't admit there's a chance. ;)

The GF would be pretty pissed though.

Just make sure to put her on your list before it gets laminated.

AJ

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2014, 12:45:01 PM »
Quote
If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner.

If I admit that there are chances I could be hit by a car then I have higher chances of being hit by a car?

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

But whether you divorce or not is not random chance. The divorce rate for the population as a whole may be 50%, but that doesn't mean that you personally have a 50/50 shot of making it. The rate of obesity in the general population is 67%. That doesn't mean that I, personally, have a 67% chance of being overweight. If I went through life making decisions as if I might one day be overweight, yeah I think that could potentially increase the "odds" of my becoming so:

"Hmm, I wear a size 4 now, but most people gain weight as they age so I'll buy a size 6 just in case."
"Hmm, I don't feel like eating cookies right now, but most people stress eat, so I'll buy them just in case."
"Hmm, I fit pretty well in a compact car, but I might gain weight - most people do - so I'll buy a full size car just in case."

You don't think that this way of thinking could have any impact, however small, on whether or not I actually gain weight? Both weight gain and divorce have an element of control to them - there is psychology at play. Obviously, that doesn't mean ignoring the possibility of either - but I would contend that one's resources are better spent in preventative measures (exercise, learning about nutrition) than in preparing for failure (buying larger clothes, just in case).

matchewed

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2014, 01:17:08 PM »
Quote
If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner.

If I admit that there are chances I could be hit by a car then I have higher chances of being hit by a car?

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

But whether you divorce or not is not random chance. The divorce rate for the population as a whole may be 50%, but that doesn't mean that you personally have a 50/50 shot of making it. The rate of obesity in the general population is 67%. That doesn't mean that I, personally, have a 67% chance of being overweight. If I went through life making decisions as if I might one day be overweight, yeah I think that could potentially increase the "odds" of my becoming so:

"Hmm, I wear a size 4 now, but most people gain weight as they age so I'll buy a size 6 just in case."
"Hmm, I don't feel like eating cookies right now, but most people stress eat, so I'll buy them just in case."
"Hmm, I fit pretty well in a compact car, but I might gain weight - most people do - so I'll buy a full size car just in case."

You don't think that this way of thinking could have any impact, however small, on whether or not I actually gain weight? Both weight gain and divorce have an element of control to them - there is psychology at play. Obviously, that doesn't mean ignoring the possibility of either - but I would contend that one's resources are better spent in preventative measures (exercise, learning about nutrition) than in preparing for failure (buying larger clothes, just in case).

Hah, love your examples.

That's only if you take the view that keeping separate finances is a preparatory action which is what I'm refuting. I believe having separate finances has a pro of being easier to manage in the event of a divorce but I disagree that people are approaching their finances in such a way when deciding to get married. See the first part of what I wrote -

I think you may be oversimplifying the process of deciding whether to keep finances separate or joint. Unless it is a marriage of convenience I'm pretty sure most people don't walk into the decision process saying "so let's keep our finances separate for when we divorce." They're going to take a broader approach that will take into account their feelings of divorce and the likelihood of it; as well as many other factors such as income disparity, debts, credit worthiness, and financial/life goals. Or at least they should take that broader approach. :)

Narrowing it down to a "So do you think we'll divorce?" or a "Because divorce is prevalent we should have separate finances." as the sole reason why people would maintain separate finances is narrowing it down too much for this sort of topic. There should never be one sole motivator for anything. People should look at their decision making from many angles.

Note that I specifically state that people should not be walking around making decisions based solely on what they should do in the event of one thing.

AJ

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2014, 01:32:50 PM »
Hah, love your examples.

That's only if you take the view that keeping separate finances is a preparatory action which is what I'm refuting. I believe having separate finances has a pro of being easier to manage in the event of a divorce but I disagree that people are approaching their finances in such a way when deciding to get married. See the first part of what I wrote -

Oh, I agree with you on that one. I don't think most people here are separating finances to make divorce less painful. It sounds like the most common reason is accounting simplicity.

dragoncar

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2014, 01:43:33 PM »
Quote
If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner.

If I admit that there are chances I could be hit by a car then I have higher chances of being hit by a car?

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

But whether you divorce or not is not random chance. The divorce rate for the population as a whole may be 50%, but that doesn't mean that you personally have a 50/50 shot of making it. The rate of obesity in the general population is 67%. That doesn't mean that I, personally, have a 67% chance of being overweight. If I went through life making decisions as if I might one day be overweight, yeah I think that could potentially increase the "odds" of my becoming so:

"Hmm, I wear a size 4 now, but most people gain weight as they age so I'll buy a size 6 just in case."
"Hmm, I don't feel like eating cookies right now, but most people stress eat, so I'll buy them just in case."
"Hmm, I fit pretty well in a compact car, but I might gain weight - most people do - so I'll buy a full size car just in case."

You don't think that this way of thinking could have any impact, however small, on whether or not I actually gain weight? Both weight gain and divorce have an element of control to them - there is psychology at play. Obviously, that doesn't mean ignoring the possibility of either - but I would contend that one's resources are better spent in preventative measures (exercise, learning about nutrition) than in preparing for failure (buying larger clothes, just in case).

If running out of cookies was potentially financially catastrophic, then yeah I probably would stock up.

matchewed

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2014, 01:48:12 PM »
Quote
If you are already admitting that the chances are there, then chances are it will be considered as an option much sooner.

If I admit that there are chances I could be hit by a car then I have higher chances of being hit by a car?

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

But whether you divorce or not is not random chance. The divorce rate for the population as a whole may be 50%, but that doesn't mean that you personally have a 50/50 shot of making it. The rate of obesity in the general population is 67%. That doesn't mean that I, personally, have a 67% chance of being overweight. If I went through life making decisions as if I might one day be overweight, yeah I think that could potentially increase the "odds" of my becoming so:

"Hmm, I wear a size 4 now, but most people gain weight as they age so I'll buy a size 6 just in case."
"Hmm, I don't feel like eating cookies right now, but most people stress eat, so I'll buy them just in case."
"Hmm, I fit pretty well in a compact car, but I might gain weight - most people do - so I'll buy a full size car just in case."

You don't think that this way of thinking could have any impact, however small, on whether or not I actually gain weight? Both weight gain and divorce have an element of control to them - there is psychology at play. Obviously, that doesn't mean ignoring the possibility of either - but I would contend that one's resources are better spent in preventative measures (exercise, learning about nutrition) than in preparing for failure (buying larger clothes, just in case).

If running out of cookies was potentially financially catastrophic, then yeah I probably would stock up.

Those Girl Scout cookies only come by once a year. Nothing wrong with grabbing a couple dozen dozen boxes.

AJ

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2014, 01:48:44 PM »
If running out of cookies was potentially financially catastrophic, then yeah I probably would stock up.

Er...the analogy was divorce=overweight, not divorce=no more cookies.

Mmm....girl scout cookies.......

DoubleDown

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2014, 01:59:23 PM »
Great points matchewed.

Really a lot of this discussion about "combined" or "separate" finances is silly in relation to marriage and divorce. How the accounts are held or managed is, for the most part, meaningless (there CAN be a few distinctions with completely separate property that was held separately prior to marriage and never commingled, but even that's open to legal challenge). That's why all the answers saying "do whatever works best for you" are good and accurate.

Your property, pensions, retirement accounts, custody of children -- it's all going to be split equitably (supposedly) in the event of a divorce, unless there's a legal contract between the parties specifying another method of splitting it (i.e., a prenup or postnup). How the parties held or managed the assets makes Zero difference. Husband's 401k will be split in half with wife, wife's 401k will be split in half with husband. It makes no difference that the husband is not a named owner on the wife's account and vice-versa.

For your day-to-day finances, assuming both parties have the same standard of living, it doesn't matter which accounts it comes from. If there's inequity in how the parties are living (one's spending freely while the other is being frugal for example), then there are other issues that need to be addressed as already pointed out in the discussion.

And News Flash: If you are living with a spender while you scrimp and save, it will not matter to the courts in the event of a divorce! The spender will still get half of what's left, so be prepared for that.

Spork

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2014, 02:06:47 PM »
Quote from: Spork link=topic=15606.msg249401#musg249401 date=1395418880

I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me. I admit there is a chance there is a chance Anna Kendrick will fall madly in love with me....

:)

You know that affair with Anna is likely going to end in a divorce, right?  :)

Not if I don't admit there's a chance. ;)

The GF would be pretty pissed though.

Just make sure to put her on your list before it gets laminated.

LOL.  Ever since that episode, my wifey and I have kept "a list".  It was really done in fun and truly means nothing.

TreeTired

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2014, 02:13:02 PM »
One of the secrets to our long happy marriage is we don't argue about money.  The price we pay is some waste and a less frugal life than ideal, but the benefits are worth it.   My money is her money and her money is our money.  Everything we own jointly (except my classic car, and she questioned that.... I didn't have a good answer).   We don't discuss most small purchases but try to use good judgement and not spend frivolously.  We discuss all medium and larger purchases and both have veto power.  It's a big tradeoff, but it works for us.

MrsHybrid

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2014, 08:18:51 PM »
My two cents is this. Unless you have children from prior relationships you are trying to protect financially, a prenup is just another way of saying I don't trust you.  Using divorce statistics to plan your future doesn't say much for your view of yourself or your future spouse. People used to aspire to be better than the rest. Now it seems expectations have become much lower and we know people tend to live up or down to their expectations. Don't get married and keep your finances separated. That way when the inevitable happens as you expect it to, you can make a "clean break" financially as it were.

gobius

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2014, 11:44:34 PM »
Hah, love your examples.

That's only if you take the view that keeping separate finances is a preparatory action which is what I'm refuting. I believe having separate finances has a pro of being easier to manage in the event of a divorce but I disagree that people are approaching their finances in such a way when deciding to get married. See the first part of what I wrote -

Oh, I agree with you on that one. I don't think most people here are separating finances to make divorce less painful. It sounds like the most common reason is accounting simplicity.

Some could keep them separate to keep each other more accountable or avoid fights about purchases.  One partner may be more frugal if he/she can only spend "his"/"her" money.  I suppose it would be like if you had a teenage kid and made him buy his own clothes or vehicle.  Sure, you could just buy it for him, but making him use his own money may force him to be more frugal about his choices.  The expectation would probably be that one spouse won't want a divorce every time s/he doesn't have access to the other's money, just as the teenager will take responsibility and not threaten to run away if he doesn't get clothes money.

gobius

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2014, 12:01:52 AM »
My two cents is this. Unless you have children from prior relationships you are trying to protect financially, a prenup is just another way of saying I don't trust you.  Using divorce statistics to plan your future doesn't say much for your view of yourself or your future spouse. People used to aspire to be better than the rest. Now it seems expectations have become much lower and we know people tend to live up or down to their expectations. Don't get married and keep your finances separated. That way when the inevitable happens as you expect it to, you can make a "clean break" financially as it were.

Some people are more risk-averse than others.  Honestly I could go into the history of why we are considering a pre-nup but 1) it's long and more complicated than "I don't trust you" and 2) you obviously have pre-conceived notions so it would be a waste of my time.

MrsHybrid

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2014, 09:16:41 AM »
Wow now. Help me understand. Don't assume preconceived notions about what you think are my preconceived notions. What are the advantages of marriage with a prenup for you?

gobius

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2014, 12:05:32 PM »
Wow now. Help me understand. Don't assume preconceived notions about what you think are my preconceived notions. What are the advantages of marriage with a prenup for you?

My apologies; I was tired and didn't feel like explaining it but certainly can.  Fair warning: I'm long winded and want to give a full picture.

I'm almost 30 and my fiancee is almost 27.  I have a STEM degree because I am good at math and science; I had to finance it myself and came out of college with a lot of debt (over $40K), but paid it off in a couple of years by saving about 70% of my pay.  She got a degree in a liberal arts field (paid for by her parents) because she enjoyed the subject but then had very few job prospects coming out of school.

She recently got a Master's degree and got a little bit in loans for it (I paid most of the other bills); she still will be making about half of what I make with her new job.  I've recently started socking away about $4K/month and she will soon be saving about 1/3 of that (prior to this I was putting away about $2,500-$3K/month and she was putting away about $500/mo).

I'm not overly passionate about my job and would like to FIRE ASAP (or at least get a job in something else but I would take a big pay cut); she is about to start working in her field and is very excited about it so likely wouldn't retire for awhile.  I've saved a decent nest egg so far (about $150K if you include home equity; about $120K without home equity).  Had I been smarter about using pre-tax money, my NW would be $175-$200K without home equity.  If I continue with my path, I could feel comfortable leaving my job in the next couple of years, or even FIRE around my 34th birthday (liquid NW would be about $300-350K, enough to pay my part of the bills).  Her nest egg is much smaller (NW about $10K) and won't grow nearly as quickly (in 4 years NW would be maybe $75-100K if she buckles down).

If we have kids, we wouldn't for at least the next 5 years.  If that were the case, I would be willing to cancel the pre-nup and be a SAHD; she has said that she doesn't want to be a SAHM but is fine with me being a SAHD.  If I continued working instead of FIRE and we got to a combined NW of over $600K, I would also be willing to cancel it and then FIRE.  Honestly, I could see myself working some other job and helping her reach FIRE more quickly.  I just read about the "oxygen mask" approach to raising kids in Jeff Yeager's book "The Cheapskate Next Door".  I guess that is my FIRE method.

Now, the state I live in has punitive divorce laws for the breadwinner; I know because I work with other breadwinners who got taken to the cleaners, even when the other person had a career of her own and child support wasn't involved (I work with mostly guys, so every story was a guy breadwinner, but imagine a female breadwinner would have the same issue).  I actually told my fiancee this (early in the relationship, way before we got engaged) and that I didn't want to get married, unless I was going to have kids, because of the financial risk and how that would destroy my goals.  She still wanted to eventually get married and suggested a pre-nup so that I would still consider it.

She now has been reading the MMM blog for a month or so and is actually getting excited about FI, which is why I have considered canceling a pre-nup.  Prior to this, my fear was that there is a possibility to get divorced before I quit my job and I would be stuck handing over a huge percentage of my NW and/or paying alimony.  Or, it could be right after I leave my job, and a judge could make me pay alimony based on what I "could" make, not being understanding of the concept of FIRE.  Either way, I would be stuck working a job I'm not crazy about for much longer than I originally planned, all because I didn't take precautions.  Maybe it'd only be 3 more years, but that's 3 more years I'll never get back.

Is it a lack of trust?  Perhaps somewhat.  She is actually quite trustworthy (more than almost anyone else I know), but I also know that going through a divorce can bring out the worst in people.  She would be the one holding the cards and I would be at her mercy; I don't feel comfortable with that.  She can understand the logic of a pre-nup and agrees that, since I have set myself up for FIRE and she hasn't as quickly, it wouldn't be fair for her to take my money.  However, since most divorces end with money split 50/50, even if she had a choice, it would be easy for her to self-justify taking her half when it comes down to it.  This isn't because she's selfish so much as it's because she's human.

It's obvious that a lot of people in this thread don't see money as "mine" and "yours" but rather "ours".  I understand that; it's how most people see it.  I don't, at least right now.

The guys I know who got divorced never imagined it would happen and usually get some sort of "well, caveat emptor, buddy" as consolation after huge legal bills and losing the battle anyway; I'm taking that advice to heart.  I guess that's why I get a little irritated because a lot of people IRL have been saying, "Why are you even getting married if you want a pre-nup?", then when they hear the story of someone losing A LOT from a divorce, brush it off with, "It is what it is."

She has it pretty good now; we split bills but it's by how much we make, so I pay most of them (we've lived together for 4.5 years and it's always been that way).  We are moving into a smaller house soon and she is going to pay half the bills then since she will be making good money.  My savings rate may even be higher ($4500/mo or so) when we do that, with hers being $1500/mo.  I am helping her with her finances so the FI goal can become "our" goal and I can feel more comfortable without a pre-nup, eventually.  I wouldn't mind waiting a few more years before marriage to reach that point, but she doesn't want to wait; I can understand that being officially married is more important to her than it is to me, and she can understand that I am nervous about losing my money, no matter how low I think the odds are.  So we compromise.

She actually is relatively frugal and is getting better about it; she also isn't a self-entitled type.  Quite honestly I could see myself spending the rest of my life with her, but am aware that probably 100% of men who get divorced likely thought the same thing when they got married.  I said in a previous post that I see us as more likely than 90% of couples out there to make it (hell, maybe even more), but that I also know my opinion is biased :).

dragoncar

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2014, 08:02:09 PM »
My two cents is this. Unless you have children from prior relationships you are trying to protect financially, a prenup is just another way of saying I don't trust you.  Using divorce statistics to plan your future doesn't say much for your view of yourself or your future spouse. People used to aspire to be better than the rest. Now it seems expectations have become much lower and we know people tend to live up or down to their expectations. Don't get married and keep your finances separated. That way when the inevitable happens as you expect it to, you can make a "clean break" financially as it were.


People who view prenups the way you do fail to realize that there will always be division of assets in the case of divorce or death.  Marriage without a prenup is saying "I'll let my state legislature decide how assets will be divided in a separation" and with a prenup is saying "I want to decide how assets will be divided in a separation."  If you think sticking your head in the sand can prevent a divorce, more power to you.  Also, we've pretty thoroughly covered the analogy to liability insurance.

mh1361

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2014, 07:04:04 AM »
Wow now. Help me understand. Don't assume preconceived notions about what you think are my preconceived notions. What are the advantages of marriage with a prenup for you?

My apologies; I was tired and didn't feel like explaining it but certainly can.  Fair warning: I'm long winded and want to give a full picture.

I'm almost 30 and my fiancee is almost 27.  I have a STEM degree because I am good at math and science; I had to finance it myself and came out of college with a lot of debt (over $40K), but paid it off in a couple of years by saving about 70% of my pay.  She got a degree in a liberal arts field (paid for by her parents) because she enjoyed the subject but then had very few job prospects coming out of school.

She recently got a Master's degree and got a little bit in loans for it (I paid most of the other bills); she still will be making about half of what I make with her new job.  I've recently started socking away about $4K/month and she will soon be saving about 1/3 of that (prior to this I was putting away about $2,500-$3K/month and she was putting away about $500/mo).

I'm not overly passionate about my job and would like to FIRE ASAP (or at least get a job in something else but I would take a big pay cut); she is about to start working in her field and is very excited about it so likely wouldn't retire for awhile.  I've saved a decent nest egg so far (about $150K if you include home equity; about $120K without home equity).  Had I been smarter about using pre-tax money, my NW would be $175-$200K without home equity.  If I continue with my path, I could feel comfortable leaving my job in the next couple of years, or even FIRE around my 34th birthday (liquid NW would be about $300-350K, enough to pay my part of the bills).  Her nest egg is much smaller (NW about $10K) and won't grow nearly as quickly (in 4 years NW would be maybe $75-100K if she buckles down).

If we have kids, we wouldn't for at least the next 5 years.  If that were the case, I would be willing to cancel the pre-nup and be a SAHD; she has said that she doesn't want to be a SAHM but is fine with me being a SAHD.  If I continued working instead of FIRE and we got to a combined NW of over $600K, I would also be willing to cancel it and then FIRE.  Honestly, I could see myself working some other job and helping her reach FIRE more quickly.  I just read about the "oxygen mask" approach to raising kids in Jeff Yeager's book "The Cheapskate Next Door".  I guess that is my FIRE method.

Now, the state I live in has punitive divorce laws for the breadwinner; I know because I work with other breadwinners who got taken to the cleaners, even when the other person had a career of her own and child support wasn't involved (I work with mostly guys, so every story was a guy breadwinner, but imagine a female breadwinner would have the same issue).  I actually told my fiancee this (early in the relationship, way before we got engaged) and that I didn't want to get married, unless I was going to have kids, because of the financial risk and how that would destroy my goals.  She still wanted to eventually get married and suggested a pre-nup so that I would still consider it.

She now has been reading the MMM blog for a month or so and is actually getting excited about FI, which is why I have considered canceling a pre-nup.  Prior to this, my fear was that there is a possibility to get divorced before I quit my job and I would be stuck handing over a huge percentage of my NW and/or paying alimony.  Or, it could be right after I leave my job, and a judge could make me pay alimony based on what I "could" make, not being understanding of the concept of FIRE.  Either way, I would be stuck working a job I'm not crazy about for much longer than I originally planned, all because I didn't take precautions.  Maybe it'd only be 3 more years, but that's 3 more years I'll never get back.

Is it a lack of trust?  Perhaps somewhat.  She is actually quite trustworthy (more than almost anyone else I know), but I also know that going through a divorce can bring out the worst in people.  She would be the one holding the cards and I would be at her mercy; I don't feel comfortable with that.  She can understand the logic of a pre-nup and agrees that, since I have set myself up for FIRE and she hasn't as quickly, it wouldn't be fair for her to take my money.  However, since most divorces end with money split 50/50, even if she had a choice, it would be easy for her to self-justify taking her half when it comes down to it.  This isn't because she's selfish so much as it's because she's human.

It's obvious that a lot of people in this thread don't see money as "mine" and "yours" but rather "ours".  I understand that; it's how most people see it.  I don't, at least right now.

The guys I know who got divorced never imagined it would happen and usually get some sort of "well, caveat emptor, buddy" as consolation after huge legal bills and losing the battle anyway; I'm taking that advice to heart.  I guess that's why I get a little irritated because a lot of people IRL have been saying, "Why are you even getting married if you want a pre-nup?", then when they hear the story of someone losing A LOT from a divorce, brush it off with, "It is what it is."

She has it pretty good now; we split bills but it's by how much we make, so I pay most of them (we've lived together for 4.5 years and it's always been that way).  We are moving into a smaller house soon and she is going to pay half the bills then since she will be making good money.  My savings rate may even be higher ($4500/mo or so) when we do that, with hers being $1500/mo.  I am helping her with her finances so the FI goal can become "our" goal and I can feel more comfortable without a pre-nup, eventually.  I wouldn't mind waiting a few more years before marriage to reach that point, but she doesn't want to wait; I can understand that being officially married is more important to her than it is to me, and she can understand that I am nervous about losing my money, no matter how low I think the odds are.  So we compromise.

She actually is relatively frugal and is getting better about it; she also isn't a self-entitled type.  Quite honestly I could see myself spending the rest of my life with her, but am aware that probably 100% of men who get divorced likely thought the same thing when they got married.  I said in a previous post that I see us as more likely than 90% of couples out there to make it (hell, maybe even more), but that I also know my opinion is biased :).

Thanks for laying that all out gobius, it's helpful to see the thinking behind people's decisions.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2014, 07:15:22 AM »
I'll add that it wasn't until joining the forums that I realized how common split finances are, and how important it is to find out "what works" for a given relationship.

My wife and I have had joint finances since the year before we married, when she moved out here. She's largely happy to be oblivious money-wise. Typically I have to initiate any finance conversations, because I want her to have input. We both earn money but her earnings are about 4x mine, since I'm primarily a SAHD.

We do have small separate accounts for things like gift money and a small "blow" money allowance each month, but nearly all cash is in one checking account and one online savings account.

mbl

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2014, 08:18:00 AM »
You've decided in your own judgement, that separate finances or a prenup is a standard by which any individual's readiness or suitability for marriage can be gauged.  Yet, there are many examples that completely contradict your opinion.    Two people, whomever they be are often bound by many more important things than checking accounts or other material structures.   You're at the start of your life with someone else.  You haven't the long term experience or internalized knowledge to understand that there are an infinite way of doing things in marriage.    As every marriage is different based on those who are in it.

You make me laugh at your rigidity and grand pronouncement regarding  joint finances.    Particularly because you don't have any experience being married yet. And most of all, for those that have been married a long time, you have declined to perhaps learn something.  I  suspect that it has great potential to cause you difficulties in your marriage.   Compromise and consideration go a long way in making any partnership successful.   We can plan and decide that we're going to organize things one way and then, as happens quite often, realize that some other way might better suit the reality of our lives and personalities.    What works for me might not work for you but for you to judge anyone's union based on how they organize their accounts is preposterous. 

Do you feel threatened that 401(k)s and IRAs can only be titled as individual accounts?  Do you think that introduces some risk?

simonsez

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2014, 08:50:19 AM »
You've decided in your own judgement, that separate finances or a prenup is a standard by which any individual's readiness or suitability for marriage can be gauged.  Yet, there are many examples that completely contradict your opinion.    Two people, whomever they be are often bound by many more important things than checking accounts or other material structures.   You're at the start of your life with someone else.  You haven't the long term experience or internalized knowledge to understand that there are an infinite way of doing things in marriage.    As every marriage is different based on those who are in it.

Bolded the part above.  I've actually spent more time cohabitating as an unmarried couple with my wife than I have living together while married.  That will hopefully change next year. :)

I voted Other.  Some things are joint while others are separate.  We each have our own credit cards that we use for certain types of purchases with the other person as an authorized user but still only one person pays it off.  We each pay a proportion of rent based on our income which comes out of our separate banking accounts.  I guess that is partially due to the convenience of not having to change anything from when we were cohabitating.  As everyone else says, do whatever works.

netskyblue

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #84 on: March 24, 2014, 09:41:02 AM »
I'm getting married next month, and nothing will change financially except our taxes, which we'll file jointly.  If we get a refund the first year, we'll decide what to do with it, and adjust withholding to avoid getting one the next year.

He has his checking account, I have mine.  We each cover different household bills.  The actual "savings" is kept in my checking account, because I have 3.25% APY.  I don't know why he doesn't want to change banks, but that's his choice.  I'm better with accounting, so I keep a spreadsheet of what's in savings.

As long as the bills get paid and our savings goals are met, we don't care what the other does with the rest of their income.  It works, and we're happy.

jhartt3

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #85 on: March 24, 2014, 11:52:58 AM »
The evolution of our Finances from PreMarriage Cohabitate to Marriage to Post MMM(current)
Pre marriage
seperate accounts - we split the mortgage and utilities down the middle

Post Marriage
we realized the 2 biggest things we fought over were keeping groceries even and who drove since her car was more efficient than mine
easy solution.  Grocery/Gas credit card we share so everything gets split down the middle with that now.

MMM
to max out her 401k since i make more I decided to pay a larger part of the mortgage so she wouldnt see a hit to her finances when we started maxing out her 401k.  Now we probably have equal or close to equal disposable income.  I also use my EOY bonus to max out our Roth IRAs. 

But in general we keep seperate accounts.  It allows us more flexiblity and it really doesnt cause any arguements.  anything that comes up as a friction spot we work thru and decide if its something we really need to be buying and if it is ... we decide if its something we should both be responsible for.  and then find a credit card that gives big benefits for that item.  we get 6% on groceries and 3.3% on gas. 

mh1361

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #86 on: March 24, 2014, 02:29:17 PM »
You've decided in your own judgement, that separate finances or a prenup is a standard by which any individual's readiness or suitability for marriage can be gauged.  Yet, there are many examples that completely contradict your opinion.    Two people, whomever they be are often bound by many more important things than checking accounts or other material structures.   You're at the start of your life with someone else.  You haven't the long term experience or internalized knowledge to understand that there are an infinite way of doing things in marriage.    As every marriage is different based on those who are in it.

You make me laugh at your rigidity and grand pronouncement regarding  joint finances.    Particularly because you don't have any experience being married yet. And most of all, for those that have been married a long time, you have declined to perhaps learn something.  I  suspect that it has great potential to cause you difficulties in your marriage.   Compromise and consideration go a long way in making any partnership successful.   We can plan and decide that we're going to organize things one way and then, as happens quite often, realize that some other way might better suit the reality of our lives and personalities.    What works for me might not work for you but for you to judge anyone's union based on how they organize their accounts is preposterous. 

Do you feel threatened that 401(k)s and IRAs can only be titled as individual accounts?  Do you think that introduces some risk?

What is this in response to?

AJ

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #87 on: March 24, 2014, 04:44:50 PM »
Some could keep them separate to keep each other more accountable or avoid fights about purchases.  One partner may be more frugal if he/she can only spend "his"/"her" money.  I suppose it would be like if you had a teenage kid and made him buy his own clothes or vehicle.  Sure, you could just buy it for him, but making him use his own money may force him to be more frugal about his choices.  The expectation would probably be that one spouse won't want a divorce every time s/he doesn't have access to the other's money, just as the teenager will take responsibility and not threaten to run away if he doesn't get clothes money.

Maybe I'm misreading this, but it sounds like you're describing a situation where one person is so selfish (or perhaps foolish) that they will spend more out of combined finances than they would out of separate. I agree that does sound like a teenager, but at the risk of flaming up the thread, would such a person really be mature enough to marry? It's hard for me to picture an otherwise happy and healthy couple where one of them would exploit the other like that, regardless of how they structure their finances.

kite

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #88 on: March 24, 2014, 06:29:28 PM »
26 years married.   We keep mostly joint accounts.   I'm the sole breadwinner with a partially disabled spouse.  He keeps a separate savings account with a small inheritance in it.  He is risk averse as can be imagined, and while we fund our retirement accounts about evenly, the returns are vastly different.

We were barely out of our teens when we first married and started with everything jointly held. Even our first car had both our names on it.   Overkill.   One of the things I find amusing about these discussions is how naive people are about their own futures.   Every single marriage ends.  Each and every one.  Half of them end with both partners still alive and the other half end with one partner alive.  Along the way, changes will occur that you did not anticipate.   These are just the facts.  The guy I married worked 2 full time jobs when we were first together.   Now, he is incapable of supporting himself,  let alone shouldering 50% of the mortgage or whatever proportion seemed 'fair' in consideration of our incomes when we signed a mortgage.  Illness, disability,  addiction,  job loss, sweeping industry changes,  natural disasters,  war, and plenty of things I didn't mention can all occur and you have only the illusion of control over any of them.  I've got no judgment towards anyone whose marriage ends with both partners still alive.   That's another thing over which you have only an illusion of control,  because your spouse really can just up and leave you,  no matter how good and wonderful you are. 

If I were getting married at this stage of my life,  I'd absolutely consider a prenup.  I think aversion to them is akin to putting off Estate Planning and signing an Advanced Directive or buying disability insurance.   We just don't want to think about bad outcomes,  so we plunge ahead with blinders on.

Cassie

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2014, 03:45:27 PM »
Most people that I know that have been divorced get a pre-nup the 2nd or 3rd time around.  There is nothing wrong with getting it the first time either.  Do what your gut tells you too.

dragoncar

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2014, 04:00:36 PM »
I think aversion to them is akin to putting off Estate Planning and signing an Advanced Directive or buying disability insurance.   

Well, I don't believe in death so estate planning is really just setting your life up for failure.

Spork

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Re: Separate Finances and Marriage Vows
« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2014, 05:49:34 PM »
I think aversion to them is akin to putting off Estate Planning and signing an Advanced Directive or buying disability insurance.   

Well, I don't believe in death so estate planning is really just setting your life up for failure.

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