Author Topic: School Lunch Eligibility  (Read 2355 times)

moustachebar

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School Lunch Eligibility
« on: August 03, 2022, 06:09:54 PM »
Hi folks,

I'm checking out the school lunch options and seeing that eligibility for reduced lunch is in the neighborhood of our annual income - depending on how you slice it and what year it is. We are not FIREd but frugal, having 'downshifted' to a better quality of life, after years of grinding it out, both parents working, long daycare days, non-optional but pointless travel, extreme stress, etc.

Some years we have Roth conversions. Some years not. Some years we have capital gains. Some years not. All based on what makes sense at the time, short and long term planning, hoping to have enough money to squeak through without going back to what was a harried life and, long term, not doable. Dark days will come on their own, there's not much use in bringing them on yourself.

The school lunch forms ask for income and you can enter it as biweekly, monthly, annual, etc.

To me, capital gains would count as income, but only fit in the annual category, so I should try to fill out the annual category. Of course it may not exist next year...

Also, to me, Roth conversions would NOT count as income. They are taxable this year, but they were earned in another year. If I were filling out the form in a prior year I would have 'declared' it then. No money coming in - this is an accounting allowance Congress set up to get prepayments of taxes coming in. Again, may not exist next year.

1) Any arguments for or against my ideas of what is income?
2) Any suggestions about whether to 'declare' them as annual or some other way?
3) For a school year such as 2022-2023, use 2021 income because it's settled? 2022 so far or estimated? 2023 projected?

Thanks folks, I think this is interesting, hope you do too, and am hoping to hear some interesting responses. I appreciate all the useful stuff you put up here.

PS I understand the range of viewpoints between 'people should not use benefits if they have other options', and 'benefits should be as universal as possible', and I fall toward the latter, understanding that keeping people of all means in touch with what is offered - especially with a double benefit (to agriculture, such as it is) - has the ability to sustain political support. I understand if you do not agree, but in this, my post under sharing, teaching, and learning, I am, completely respectfully, not really looking for help to rehash that particular issue. I'm looking more for a logical basis for filling out the form, not ethical arguments not to fill it out at all. But I appreciate those arguments where they exist throughout the forum!

Morning Glory

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2022, 07:07:12 PM »
No idea. Following because oldest will be in second grade and we had universal free lunch for his first two years, so it will be our first time applying also.

secondcor521

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2022, 07:46:27 PM »
The answer to all of your questions is to call the school, ask them, then follow their guidance.

In my limited experience, there is a person at the school who processes these applications whom you can ask.  They will generally say to just use common sense and recent data and will more or less leave it up to you and your reasonable conscience.  They might not know about things like Roth conversions or FIRE folks but will still try to be helpful.

I don't think it matters what time period you use.

You will usually have to reapply every year, which will address the fact that your situation changes from year to year.  Some years you may qualify, others you might not.

As for whether to include Roth conversions or not, I'm not sure what the right answer is when applying for reduced price school lunches.  But I will point out that for FAFSA purposes, you can petition the schools to essentially ignore Roth conversions and they will do so.  Google GEN-99-10 for details.

Cranky

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2022, 05:30:32 AM »
And remember that the school is enthusiastic about having you qualify for reduced lunch because the more kids in the program qualifies them for other federal programs.

We’re going to miss the free breakfast/lunch program this year because the little boy pretty much got all his milk at school. The food wasn’t all that great, though - mostly prepackaged stuff.

moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2022, 06:53:53 AM »
Thank you both for the help!

I figured this was clear cut and I was thinking about it wrong. Sounds like maybe not. Also, I saw a reference to schools needing to audit some portion of these forms to keep getting assistance from USDA. I wish I could find the auditor's guide to understand how they see it, because that should be the answer. Perhaps the school district person knows those rules and it's less variable than I am presuming.

Either way, I see why you're suggesting talking with the person at the school, secondcor521.

(Incidentally, in my neighborhood or family saying the phrase "capital gain" instantly marks you as someone probably up to no good! Once an acquaintance was promoting very questionable tax practices (friend's non-viable business deductions for house, car, expenses, rental properties, etc) in conversation, and I simply questioned "capital gain rates", and now I was the shady one.)

On Roth conversions:

I didn't find anything searching for that particular text string BUT I did find references to what you are talking about, and I would have had no idea. Thank you secondcor521! From what I see, looks like it is up to the individual college FA office on what to do there.

I did find out that when filling out the school lunch form during day care (we didn't qualify, but the center asked all parents to fill it out), we entered gross income. So, using tax logic, some support for not calling the Roth conversion amounts income now, since we already called them income then.

On capital gains...

Some need-based programs want lump sums divided by 12 or added to the annual number. Some want monthly without spikes or lumps counted at all because they presume those spikes were one-offs and the need still exists. Some programs want only the portion of gains you 'withdraw' (ie, not 'sell') for household expenses. Seems these agencies aren't using tax logic.

Agree, Cranky, the school does benefit; these benefits are fairly widely used here. Food here is good, but has been impacted somewhat by lack of staff. Hopefully can return to prior levels. They are creative and they can cook! They still have to abide by some wonky guidelines, but overall quite good.

If I gather the resolve to ask, I will report back. Thank you again!

jim555

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2022, 07:02:21 AM »
You need to find out what methodology they use for income.  Roth conversions are definitely income they show up in the 1040.

moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2022, 07:19:36 AM »
Yes, knowing the methodology... That's the goal.

They (Roth conversions) sure do show up, no question they are income for tax purposes. OTOH those same amounts were entered on our forms years ago at the direction of the school folks back then. And they are one-time spikes, so I'm guessing they wouldn't be income for SNAP or Medicaid since those seem to go by normal monthly - my understanding probably comes from a combo of my research and your posts, but may be off.

Another data point  (quite possibly only showing that methodologies vary): a state manual for verification purposes, stating that cap gain distributions, dividends, and cap gains from selling stock or a fund = income, cap gains from selling a physical personal asset = not.

jim555

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2022, 07:25:08 AM »
Medicaid methodology is monthly based and says one time non recurring lumps are not counted.  Lumps that are recurring can be annualized.

moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2022, 07:39:18 AM »
Got it, thank you.

With so many methodologies for so many programs, better to find an authoritative source for this one.

Thanks again!

Hadilly

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2022, 07:53:32 AM »
It’s great the food is good.

California has had free breakfast and lunch the past two years. My kids have all opted for a packed lunch from home every day. I think they occasionally got the school food for extra snacks.

moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2022, 08:12:51 AM »
It is very lucky. I love to see anyone in any sector or field using their wits and ability in their work, and all the more when it's for a public good. I think when I asked it turned out that one of the cooks adapted a family recipe for one of my kid's favorite meals.

I started thinking like an auditor - what would I need to check someone's application? Found this USDA document:

https://fns-prod.azureedge.us/sites/default/files/cn/SP36_CACFP15_SFSP11-2017a1.pdf

From it:

"Households must report current income on a free and reduced price application.
Income is any money (before deductions), received on a recurring basis, including earnings, pensions, and child or spousal support, unless an income source is specifically excluded by law for the CNPs. (See: Income Exclusions.)
Gross earned income means all money earned before deductions such as income taxes, employee’s Social Security taxes, insurance premiums, and bonds.
Current income means the gross income received by a household, before deductions, for the current month, or the amount projected for the first month for which the application is filled out, or for the month prior to application. If this income is higher or lower than usual and does not fairly or accurately represent the household’s actual circumstances, the household may, in conjunction with determining officials, project its annual rate of income. FNS does not set any specific requirements regarding the frequency (e.g., weekly, bi-weekly, monthly) at which household income is reported on an application. While in most cases earners report income on a more frequent basis, there is no prohibition against annual income reporting."

Hope this helps. My own takeaway is that 1) The guidance we got to use gross years ago was right, so don't exclude 401k contributions or your share of health insurance premiums, and don't include value of health insurance or other premiums and benefits the employer provides. 2) Lumps of income aren't reported, whether Roth conversion or capital gain.

If someone has a different interpretation please chime in.

Thanks all for the guidance!

secondcor521

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moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2022, 01:34:49 PM »
Excellent - nice to have the actual document. Thank you!

Loren Ver

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2022, 03:34:46 PM »
I have no skin in this what so ever (no kids, no lunches) but I would:

I would use the estimate of the income for the year the kid will be getting the lunch.  That is the year the kid needs the lunch assistance. 

Not count Roth conversions.  It says count income before deductions, so that means before 401k contributions, which means the year the money went into 401k is the year the money got counted.  Moving it from one account type to another is taxable, but not school lunch influencing.   

I'd be really impressed if the school person follows your financial conversation :D.  Usually it is, how would someone with a funky job history fill this out?  What makes sense for them should make sense for you.  Of course, I am asking for this process to make sense....

Loren

moustachebar

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2022, 09:09:06 PM »
(I would) Not count Roth conversions... Moving it from one account type to another is taxable, but not school lunch influencing.   

I'd be really impressed if the school person follows your financial conversation :D.

Thank you. Your way of categorizing makes sense to me.

And as far as following the conversation, yes... I try to think back to these terms before finding FIRE and doing my own taxes. I hadn't any idea what they were and thought they were only for other people. Now years later I mostly have it under control and my head only spins once in awhile, like when trying to figure out what the carried interest loophole is. (Pretty sure that one is only for other people for real.)

The overall sense I get is also that they are willing to accept answers in whatever format works for you and you should try to be accurate, and since they are after current income, one-time lump sums are not what they want to see*, they are more like distortions - though the interest on them is.

*If you are a seasonal worker and you expect one or more lump sums, then yes, they want to see that projected out for the year, because it's expected to repeat. But other lump sums no.

The tricky thing is that it all comes down to the judgment of the individual at the school district. After a bunch of reading I figure you give it your best honest effort, and hope that if they don't agree they'll be willing to talk about it one way or the other. It's just hard, I guess, to leave things to someone else... one reason why we strive to FI I suppose.

Thanks all and please post back if you find any more out about how this works or your SD's take on it.


affordablehousing

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2022, 10:58:12 PM »
I think it's up to you. I highly doubt there's any repercussion one way or another. Do you want free lunches or not? This all sounds like a lot of rationalization.

DeniseNJ

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2022, 07:00:08 AM »
They don't check and the school gets more funding the more kids it has on free and reduced price lunch so you can put whatever you want.

Catbert

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2022, 11:24:17 AM »
Or you could just move to CA where starting this year, free lunches for all students.  You'd have to balance the cost of moving against the value of lunches.  :-)

Loren Ver

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2022, 12:31:20 PM »
(I would) Not count Roth conversions... Moving it from one account type to another is taxable, but not school lunch influencing.   

I'd be really impressed if the school person follows your financial conversation :D.

Thank you. Your way of categorizing makes sense to me.

And as far as following the conversation, yes... I try to think back to these terms before finding FIRE and doing my own taxes. I hadn't any idea what they were and thought they were only for other people. Now years later I mostly have it under control and my head only spins once in awhile, like when trying to figure out what the carried interest loophole is. (Pretty sure that one is only for other people for real.)

The overall sense I get is also that they are willing to accept answers in whatever format works for you and you should try to be accurate, and since they are after current income, one-time lump sums are not what they want to see*, they are more like distortions - though the interest on them is.

*If you are a seasonal worker and you expect one or more lump sums, then yes, they want to see that projected out for the year, because it's expected to repeat. But other lump sums no.

The tricky thing is that it all comes down to the judgment of the individual at the school district. After a bunch of reading I figure you give it your best honest effort, and hope that if they don't agree they'll be willing to talk about it one way or the other. It's just hard, I guess, to leave things to someone else... one reason why we strive to FI I suppose.

Thanks all and please post back if you find any more out about how this works or your SD's take on it.

Happy to be of service :D.

Trying to remember back to what is common knowledge can be very tricky.  It can make conversing and trouble shooting with the standard population ... interesting.

LV

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2022, 02:58:01 PM »
I can add a data point now (North Carolina):

By the school lunch calculation we are over the income cutoff by <$1000, however we still qualify because the kids are on medicaid, which calculates income a little differently. In addition,  the early childhood school my youngest goes to has free lunch for all students.

  I sent breakfast and lunch with the oldest for the first couple days until I got confirmation, but he didn't understand what it was about despite several reminders and getting to choose what he wanted , and decided to get the school lunch anyway and threw out what i packed because he didn't have time to finish it (he's in 2nd grade). Continuing the free lunch is a relief.

Cranky

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2022, 12:37:31 PM »
The school district notified us that the free lunch for all program had ended.

The grand boy's mom (my dd) set up his lunch account and put money in it and told him to buy breakfast/lunch whenever he wanted.

On the first day of school, the district sends out a notice that *some* schools, including the grand boy's, are in a special program and the free breakfast/lunch for all will continue for this entire school year.

The school district offers no option for retrieving the money already deposited into lunch account...

secondcor521

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2022, 03:25:19 PM »
On the first day of school, the district sends out a notice that *some* schools, including the grand boy's, are in a special program and the free breakfast/lunch for all will continue for this entire school year.

The school district offers no option for retrieving the money already deposited into lunch account...

Probably a Title One school.  If enough kids are low income, then they just do free meals for everyone.  I don't recall the logic behind it, but it's a thing.

As far as the balance, the kid can use it up anyway (maybe for extras?) or consider it an accidental donation to the school.  In some of my kids' cases, the balance could be rolled down to younger siblings.

Morning Glory

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2022, 04:40:42 PM »
On the first day of school, the district sends out a notice that *some* schools, including the grand boy's, are in a special program and the free breakfast/lunch for all will continue for this entire school year.

The school district offers no option for retrieving the money already deposited into lunch account...

Probably a Title One school.  If enough kids are low income, then they just do free meals for everyone.  I don't recall the logic behind it, but it's a thing.

As far as the balance, the kid can use it up anyway (maybe for extras?) or consider it an accidental donation to the school.  In some of my kids' cases, the balance could be rolled down to younger siblings.
It should roll over from year to year for the same kid. Should cover a couple years of ice cream on Fridays!!

jeninco

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2022, 05:32:02 PM »
On the first day of school, the district sends out a notice that *some* schools, including the grand boy's, are in a special program and the free breakfast/lunch for all will continue for this entire school year.

The school district offers no option for retrieving the money already deposited into lunch account...

Probably a Title One school.  If enough kids are low income, then they just do free meals for everyone.  I don't recall the logic behind it, but it's a thing.

As far as the balance, the kid can use it up anyway (maybe for extras?) or consider it an accidental donation to the school.  In some of my kids' cases, the balance could be rolled down to younger siblings.

I think there are at least two parts of the logic:
1. It de-stigmatizes getting free lunch, because everyone is.
2. It cuts down on paperwork. If more than XX% of the kids qualify for free lunch anyhow, it's probably not worth it to fuss about keeping track.

Just thought of 3. Kids/families who are borderline on qualifying just get the lunch. Just feed the kids, man!

If it were me, I'd consider the $$ a donation, to offset the meals my kid will be eating there anyhow.

Psychstache

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2022, 06:12:45 PM »
On the first day of school, the district sends out a notice that *some* schools, including the grand boy's, are in a special program and the free breakfast/lunch for all will continue for this entire school year.

The school district offers no option for retrieving the money already deposited into lunch account...

Probably a Title One school.  If enough kids are low income, then they just do free meals for everyone.  I don't recall the logic behind it, but it's a thing.

As far as the balance, the kid can use it up anyway (maybe for extras?) or consider it an accidental donation to the school.  In some of my kids' cases, the balance could be rolled down to younger siblings.

I think there are at least two parts of the logic:
1. It de-stigmatizes getting free lunch, because everyone is.
2. It cuts down on paperwork. If more than XX% of the kids qualify for free lunch anyhow, it's probably not worth it to fuss about keeping track.

Just thought of 3. Kids/families who are borderline on qualifying just get the lunch. Just feed the kids, man!

If it were me, I'd consider the $$ a donation, to offset the meals my kid will be eating there anyhow.

Yes, there is a tipping point at which so many kids are eligible it would cost more to provide just the eligible students with free lunch + pay the costs to administer the program compared to just giving all kids free lunch plus bureaucracy savings.

Cranky

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Re: School Lunch Eligibility
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2022, 07:55:02 AM »
In further developments, the school system is having both staffing and supply chain issues, and appears to be handing out bags of random cold lunch items....