The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: igthebold on August 20, 2012, 02:16:10 PM
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I've seen running shoes mentioned in passing, but I'm curious what others here have found. Running attracts me because it's a fairly minimal sport. I'm also trying to do a style (chi running) that reduces wear and tear on my body, and as such, thick, padded running shoes aren't the thing.
Anybody else do a minimal style of running? What kind of shoes do you use? My ideal shoe would cost $50 or less and last a long time.
I just can't stomach being forced to buy a $100 pair of shoes every few months. :P
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Guy who sits next to me at work is a pretty consistent runner, has run multiple marathons, etc. I believe he runs in Vibram Five Fingers, not sure which model.
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I just got a pair of minimalist running shoes by J-41. I'd never hear of them until I bought them haha! Previously, I had been using cheap canvas shoes from Target because they had very thin soles. However, I've already gone through three pairs this summer so I finally got some real running shoes. The pair I got was $65 on sale and are pretty comfy. I've only had a chance to do a couple of test walks but I'll be running in them this week!
Back when I was in high school, I had a pair of Adidas (also with thin soles) that lasted two or three years, which included one season of track and one season of cross country.
I've never heard of chi running... I think I'll have to look into that!
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I was hiking a while back and met a guy doing it barefoot. He moved a little slower but said it was no big deal, and insisted it was better for him than using shoes. Maybe the same is true for running?
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I do most of my recreation and all of my puttering around town barefoot. If you have a nice metro park, high school campus, or golf course near you and you can do your first few weeks barefoot on nice grass, it's a super-easy transition. Even if you don't, the transition was easy enough for me. Retraining your muscles to run barefoot is a billion times harder than dealing with slight discomfort on the soles of your feet, so if you can run in Five Fingers, you can run in nothing.
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Well barefoot running seems to be on the rise. However, the scientific community is divided, I had read an article about the whole thing but can't find it, I found a smaller and similar one (http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/are-we-built-to-run-barefoot/). In any case, I am not a runner by any sense, I just exercise. I have however found Brooks Ghost-5 to be one of the most confortable running shoes I have ever worn.
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No shoes are the best shoes! Just make sure you land on the balls of your feel and not the heels, and be bouncy - I like to think of my foot as a spring and not a lever, if that makes any sense. Every spring (it's too cold where I live to run barefoot through the winter and I don't care enough to shell out for a pair of waterproof five-fingers) I start out doing a half mile or so at a time for a week or two to build up my foot muscles. It's pretty cool actually, I drop half a shoe size over the summer from my new foot muscles raising up my arch. When you're comfortable with that, gradually increase mileage as the soles of your feet get used to the abrasion of running on asphalt or concrete. By late April / early May I can do 3 or 4 miles without a problem and glass and rocks don't hurt anymore. Really the only thing you have to worry about is landing on your heels. That'll mess you up real quick. Besides that, just go out, run as much as you feel like, and have fun!
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You may also want to look into making yourself a pair of huaraches. they're basically just a piece of leather or rubber you tie to the soles of your feet, like a fancy lightweight running sandal. I don't have time to find a link right now but I'm sure there are several Instructables on the topic.
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No shoes are the best shoes! Just make sure you land on the balls of your feel and not the heels, and be bouncy - I like to think of my foot as a spring and not a lever, if that makes any sense.
I second this! I saw a man running last week in those 5-fingered-y-weird-y shoes and he was landing heel first with each step. OUCH! I winced just listening to the thud.
I just wear joggers, while jogging. Aptly named, huh? ;)
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I did the Vibram Five Fingers thing for awhile in 08 and 09.
If that's not your thing (it isn't for me, anymore), go to your local sporting goods store when they have a sale, grab some running shoes. You should be able to score a pair for $20 or less that work just fine.
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Google invisible shoes. I bought a kit and made a pair for $20. I do have kid sized feet though... To be more mustachian, there are instructions out there for running sandals made out of old car floor mats. I suppose straight up barefoot would be the most mustachian, but glass hurts and bees hang out in the dirt.
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I also do minimalist running. I started last winter using a pair of neoprene dive booties that worked excellent in low temperature. I've also built my own huaraches using the rubber kneepads of an old wetsuit. if you're creative you can make your own from materials around the house and spend no money doing it.
Since barefoot running is the current fad it's getting a little more trumpeted up than it should be. One of the most important reasons we wear shoes medically is to prevent parasites. If you live in a tropical/subtropical area where this is a problem (the southeast US) going barefoot is NOT a good idea. And I second the bee problem; I like gardening and mowing the lawn barefoot (with a reel mower of course!) but one time I got stung by something on the bottom of my foot. It's not a huge deal every now and then, but the problem is quite easy to prevent.
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Ah yes I forgot about the parasites. Hookworm, if I remember correctly. They aren't a problem where I'm from unless you go by where all the geese live. I just avoid that area, but use your own good judgement on this one. It's probably the most legitimate argument against barefooting.
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... One of the most important reasons we wear shoes medically is to prevent parasites. If you live in a tropical/subtropical area where this is a problem (the southeast US) going barefoot is NOT a good idea. ...
Per the CDC, "Ascaris, hookworm, and whipworm are known as soil-transmitted helminths (parasitic worms). Together, they account for a major burden of disease worldwide. Ascariasis is now uncommon in the United States." "Hookworm was widespread in the southeastern United States until the early 20th century but is now nearly eliminated." (see http://www.cdc.gov/parasites/sth/index.html)
I couldn't find CDC stats on whipworm, but "Prevalence of whipworm infestation is less than 0.1%, although adequate studies are quite outdated.[1] " -- http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1000631-overview#a0199
I'm not a barefoot runner, but the risk of parasite transmission in the US seems to me a pretty minimal concern.
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Thanks for the replies everyone. The huaraches are especially intriguing. I'll have to play with that.
If the factoid I heard was correct, then NC has the largest number of different varieties of fungus of all the lower 48. I'm guessing conditions like that also benefit parasites. I like the idea of protecting the sole without exposing the skin to city conditions.
I also like not spending $70 on a pair of minimal running shoes. :P
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$70 is not very minimal! Haha this info came a little bit late for me ><
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$70 is not very minimal! Haha this info came a little bit late for me ><
Hence my discomfort. :)
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I suppose as long as I learn my lesson the $65 I spent was not in vain! If people could stop using the ground as a broken glass disposal area, I'd just go without shoes like I did when I was a kid!
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I am sure that running barefoot is the best thing possible, but I live in NYC, and the learning curve for this was just too steep for me. I also cringed at the price of running shoes, knowing that I was paying for Brand, not the stuff of the shoe.
A friend invited me to a website called "The Clymb", which sells deeply discounted excercise gear, and I got my running shoes for $35. It is an invitation only site, and it is mustachian in the prices, but not in the mindset of "buy gear now, it is on sale!" You have to be disciplined and only buy what you really need now.
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I went to a store several years ago and found a pair of very light running shoes. This was right around the time the barefoot running stuff started taking off (and I had just read the book Born to Run). I had started getting a tiny bit of knee pain when running so I thought I'd try something lighter and with less support.
The shoes worked great (just went to check and they are New Balance 662. The sole says Acteva Ultralite on them).
Anyway, they were about $40 (on sale) and have served me very well for all sorts of things. Here's a link: http://www.jcpenney.com/dotcom//new-balance-662-womens-athletic-shoes/prod.jump?ppId=1c13604&catId=cat100240063&deptId=dept20000013&selectedLotId=6106345&selectedSKUId=61063450059&navState=navState-:catId-cat100240063:subcatId-:subcatZone-false:N-100240063:Ns-:Nao-504:ps-24:pn-22:Ntt-:Nf-:action-pagination&topDim=null&topDimvalue=null¤tDim=null¤tDimVal=null&searchCount=1239&sortType=Featured
(sorry for the ridiculously long link)
I found that the Puma shoes didn't fit me properly and that the Nike Free (at the time) had more arch support than the ultralite ones.
I love them and have been running in them a while and never had any issues. I guess my point is that you can use the concepts of barefoot running but can get a shoe that has no affiliation to it. :)
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I love them and have been running in them a while and never had any issues. I guess my point is that you can use the concepts of barefoot running but can get a shoe that has no affiliation to it. :)
I totally agree, and thanks for the recommendation. I've been running on some cheapo shoes in a lower impact style, but they're terrible, the soles are wearing down, and they aren't evenly balanced any more. I love the idea of getting or making something that will last for years.
I'm about to fire ahead on an order of the Invisible Shoes. I'll report back after a few weeks if anyone is interested.
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I love them and have been running in them a while and never had any issues. I guess my point is that you can use the concepts of barefoot running but can get a shoe that has no affiliation to it. :)
This is quite true! My girlfriend runs in some basic flats she got at Target or Payless or something for about $30. The key is to find (or make) a shoe with a very narrow sole, no heel drop, and a lot of flex.
I think the message of Born to Run was that humans are, literally, born to run. We don't need any fancy gear to do it; in fact it's one of the very few sports a human can do with absolutely no equipment. Because of that it should be the quintessential minimalist and anti-consumerist sport, yet we have running shoe companies convincing us that we have to pay $100+ every 3-6 months on super fancy engineered shoes.
I think this message got warped by the consumer mindset into "I need to buy FiveFingers!" so now we have the exact same shoe companies telling us we have to spend $100+ on dorky-looking or "minimalist" shoes instead.
I just got back from a 5-mi run in my wetsuit-kneepad huaraches. It's so much more fun to free your feet and feel the ground beneath you! And obviously from my choice of footwear I don't have a problem with looking like a dork while I'm running, but if I were to spend $100 on running shoes I had better look like a king!
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I've been running on some cheapo shoes in a lower impact style, but they're terrible, the soles are wearing down, and they aren't evenly balanced any more. I love the idea of getting or making something that will last for years.
This can be a problem with cheap and DIY shoes, and I'm having it now with my huaraches. The rubber originally was 2mm thick, but it's worn extremely thin under the front part of my foot after about 4 months of use. I tried rubber cementing a patch made of bike innertube to reinforce it but that started peeling off around mile 3. I might have to give up on them and find new sole material. I think my next attempt will be with a Segway innertube if I can get one from my job.
Of course I could just order a sheet of Vibram Cherry, but it's more of a challenge to see if I can do it at no cost.
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My wife found another option, but I opted not to pursue it: http://www.instructables.com/id/Barefoot-Running-Plasti-Socks/
Summary: coat the bottom of your socks with a layer of plastic.
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I tried rubber cementing a patch made of bike innertube to reinforce it but that started peeling off around mile 3.
I've had fabulous success in general with using super glue (the cheap stuff, not the brand name) to reattach soles to all sorts of shoes. Rubber cement I wouldn't expect to hold. Your choice of adhesive may be the problem, and if so, that's easy and cheap to solve.
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No shoes are the best shoes! Just make sure you land on the balls of your feel and not the heels, and be bouncy - I like to think of my foot as a spring and not a lever, if that makes any sense.
I second this! I saw a man running last week in those 5-fingered-y-weird-y shoes and he was landing heel first with each step. OUCH! I winced just listening to the thud.
I just wear joggers, while jogging. Aptly named, huh? ;)
How do you run without heels hitting first and instead land on the balls of feet? Seems like it take reprogramming the brain/motion
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It's pretty natural, actually (intuitive-feeling, not "this is the one right way to exercise because nature says so"). If you're barefoot, when you speed up from a walking speed to a running speed, your weight shifts forward, and then you land on the front instead of the back of your foot. That avoids you hitting your heels really hard without a big cushion deforming under them each step, and also means you have an incentive not to go back to heel-striking form when running barefoot. Heel-striking barefoot hurts.
It's way different mechanically because each foot's arch compresses and decompresses with each stride, and the muscles in your legs have to coordinate with that to allow it. Meanwhile, your stride will shorten and you'll take more, shorter steps. That's what I was alluding to above: if you're a shod runner, you have to start running barefoot gradually to avoid injury, because the muscular changes are so dramatic. It's tempting to go back to heel-striking when you get tired (especially if you are running in an ultimate game or something vaguely competitive like that), but you'll only make that mistake once or twice.
In my opinion the mechanical changes are about fifty times harder than letting your soles toughen up.
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Thanks. I'll have to focus on it more than you suggest because everytime I run my heels hit first and hard, no matter how fast or slow I am going. Also note that I am not a regular runner so maybe I just need to do it more.
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Yas well as avoiding heel-striking, you can also aim to run quietly. If you're thinking about how much sound you're making and trying to minimise that, you're more likely to run with less of that thudding impact. If that makes sense to anyone else?
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How do you run without heels hitting first and instead land on the balls of feet? Seems like it take reprogramming the brain/motion
Try jogging in place. Notice how you're bouncing from side to side on the balls of your feet? Now just keep doing that, while moving forward.
A lot of people also take too long of strides when they run with shoes. To compensate, they do 2 things: land on their heels (because you literally can't flex your ankle enough to put your toes down first when you're stretched out that far) and hunch over (to keep their center of gravity over their feet, which are way far out in front of them). When you run barefoot, you'll want to make sure you stand up straight, which forces you to take shorter strides to keep your feet underneath you, which allows you to land on the ball of your foot pretty naturally. It feels strange at first, but it will help a lot with staying "light on your feet" and not striking too hard. Trying to run quietly, as Nudelkopf said, is another good way to think about it.
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Fatass here. I did Couch to 5k, and became a fatass who could run a 5k, which I did times a week for a few months. (Some day I'll get back into it!)
Cheap sneakers would feel OK for a week or so, but I started to get mysterious foot pain that would persist even on days when I wasn't running. It felt quite wrong. Eventually I splurged on a pair of running shoes designed for heavier runners (Mizuno Wave Inspire 7), and all the pain disappeared in a week.
They're pricey at $100, but I'm glad I bought them - it made a world of difference. Anyways, the takeaway is, don't tolerate painful running shoes in the name of frugality. I did, and I regret it.
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Lots of good advice here. I'm a fan of lightweight, flat running shoes myself. Whatever type of shoe you choose, though, the important (and mustachian) thing to remember is that you don't need to replace your shoes every 250 miles, which is actually what some shoe companies and stores will tell you.
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The advice to run in place or quietly makes sense to me...nice comparison that will help me. thanks
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If you check out the ChiRunning book from the library, it'll take you through a bunch of exercises that'll get you running in a more barefoot style (the differences between ChiRunning and barefoot seem subtle to me). Biggest difference, as has been explained already, is that you land with your feet below your body and your knees bent. Your steps are shorter, so your cadence wil be a lot faster. After doing it for months I find it comfortable, but I still have to think about technique so I don't end up favoring a side, hunching up my arms, or whatever.
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I've run minimalist, mostly accidentally, for about 5 years now. I bought a pair of what I now think were prototype minimalist shoes or strange racing flats at DSW for $19.99 and only read Born to Run (which I love) later. Minimalist shoes last a lot longer than regular running shoes--one pair can go for 3 years pretty easily. I usually get my shoes at Marshalls/TJ Maxx on the sale rack.
Anyone have good hacks on cheap race entry? I love racing.
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I did Couch to 5k, and became a fatass who could run a 5k, which I did times a week for a few months.
Me too. I didn't get back into it and was struggling to find a good way to exercise (frugally!) that fit with other constraints and preferences I hold (most relating to time, plus not wanting to pay to buy either equipment or a membership to, well, anything). Then I found Doctor Mama's blog posts on jogging (starting here: http://doctormama.blogspot.com/2006/05/listen-up-maggots.html ) and darned if I didn't ... start running. Her approach (concise summary: run slowly! No, no, slower than that!) is working well for me, which considering I basically couldn't stand couch to 5k (something that plenty of other previous non-runners adore) is kind of amazing.
Just in case you're looking for an alternative approach that will probably produce similar results (cheap, easy, unlikely to cause injury, and leading to reasonable fitness).
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Then I found Doctor Mama's blog posts on jogging (starting here: http://doctormama.blogspot.com/2006/05/listen-up-maggots.html ) and darned if I didn't ... start running.
That's great! It's amazing how much of it is psychology; just getting out there and doing it is the hardest part. We're all so different that it takes different techniques to convince us at a low enough level to get up and do it.
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Me too. I didn't get back into it and was struggling to find a good way to exercise (frugally!) that fit with other constraints and preferences I hold (most relating to time, plus not wanting to pay to buy either equipment or a membership to, well, anything). Then I found Doctor Mama's blog posts on jogging (starting here: http://doctormama.blogspot.com/2006/05/listen-up-maggots.html ) and darned if I didn't ... start running. Her approach (concise summary: run slowly! No, no, slower than that!) is working well for me, which considering I basically couldn't stand couch to 5k (something that plenty of other previous non-runners adore) is kind of amazing.
Just in case you're looking for an alternative approach that will probably produce similar results (cheap, easy, unlikely to cause injury, and leading to reasonable fitness).
Thanks for the link! I like her style. Maybe this will be the kick I need to try running again.
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If you check out the ChiRunning book from the library, it'll take you through a bunch of exercises that'll get you running in a more barefoot style (the differences between ChiRunning and barefoot seem subtle to me). Biggest difference, as has been explained already, is that you land with your feet below your body and your knees bent. Your steps are shorter, so your cadence wil be a lot faster. After doing it for months I find it comfortable, but I still have to think about technique so I don't end up favoring a side, hunching up my arms, or whatever.
+1 For the ChiRunning book! Great tips on posture, warm-ups, diet, etc.
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Then I found Doctor Mama's blog posts on jogging (starting here: http://doctormama.blogspot.com/2006/05/listen-up-maggots.html ) and darned if I didn't ... start running.
One question on that post.. she notes every other day, not every day.
Why is that so vital?
I understand rest time, but if you go jogging, say, every week day (5x/week), for 20-30 minutes.. won't you have enough rest time the whole rest of the day and weekend?
How is it different if you exercise for 2 hours every other day, or an hour once per day? How about a half hour once/day? At some point it's gotta be fine to go once/day, right?
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How is it different if you exercise for 2 hours every other day, or an hour once per day? How about a half hour once/day? At some point it's gotta be fine to go once/day, right?
I think some people do, but it's not usually full-bore every day.
If my experience is commonly shared, then when you first get started there will be lactic acid issues, and you'll hate walking the day after, let alone running. Reinforcing the association probably works against you, psychologically.
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One question on that post.. she notes every other day, not every day.
Why is that so vital?
It's important for the same reason that she says to neither measure yourself by speed nor distance, but by time. Let's start by looking at a world-class runner. His/her event is the 10k, which takes a little under a half hour. That runner may train every day, but you'd better believe they don't run their PR time two days in a row. Whether they feel "good" or not, their body is not physically recovered enough. They may be able to run two fast-ish days in a row at 35 minutes pretty easily, but that's still not top speed. For DoctorMama's audience, that first slothstyle run is probably the first serious run they've done in a very long time. Whether it's fast by a trained athlete's standards is irrelevant; the new runner is very often going as fast as they can - setting a slow PR, but a PR nonetheless. Just like you wouldn't expect a world-class athlete to run their best time ever two days in a row, you can't expect a new runner to run their best time ever two days in a row. The difference is that a trained runner can do an "easy" run for their recovery day, whereas the new runner literally can't go any slower so they must either walk or do nothing at all. So they are advised to only run every other day. Both the slow and fast runner are putting forth the same amount of effort, for the same amount of time (note: effort is different from work. The fast runner is doing more work, but if both are going as fast as they can, it is the same amount of effort. This is called Perceived Rate of Exertion (PRE) in the exercise world). Make sense?
The "measure yourself against others by speed/distance" trap is a pretty easy and common one to fall into, actually. It's clear to see that the new runner going as slow as they can for 1/2 hour probably shouldn't try to match the elite athlete's 10k run. But if you're reasonably fit, you might say to yourself "I'll do the same 10k, as fast as I can, even though I'm slower. If the distance is good for them, it's good for me". The problem here is that, since you're slower, you'll be putting out the same effort for a longer amount of time. This is actually more training stress than the elite athlete is taking, and you'll end up overtrained. The key is to go by effort and time, and not speed or distance. As the great Greg LeMond said, "It never gets easier, you just go faster"
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+1 to starting out really slow, slower than walking, and every other day for your distance runs. When I joined the track team as a high school freshman, that's how they started us out - the coach literally walked along with us the first half-mile to make sure we didn't go too fast. We didn't just rest on the in-between days, though - usually we'd have a short sprint-type workout, sometimes mixed into a game of flag football or ultimate.
Later years in high school we typically ran every day, usually twice a day (just a 15-20 minute warmup for one of the runs), but it was almost never the same workout two days in a row - we'd mix long runs, pace work, sprints, and recovery runs in depending on the point in the season.
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Interesting discussion. I've read the same thing that it's not natural to land hard on your heels but one should land on the ball of the feet. It's more of an issue for me with bad knees - possibly for this very reason (not that I'm really a runner, but even walking!).
Another issue that I've seen more about in the press lately is to not stretch prior to a workout, which can injure muscles and tendons. Intuitive to some, but apparently a lot of coaches or trainers have touted it as a "must do" prior to any workout. heh
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Hmmm, whoops! I guess I never stretch while cold. At least, I avoid static stretches before I'm warmed up. I'll have to read more about that.
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One question on that post.. she notes every other day, not every day.
Why is that so vital?
I'm not really in a position to answer. For me, her system is one that allows me to run, and to more-or-less enjoy running, or at least, not dis-enjoy running, and thereby to get noticeably more exercise than I was getting prior to starting what she recommends. I don't know that it is the "best" system and it's clearly not the only such one (the other one that I know of being couch-to-5k), but it's the one that's worked best for me. Her take, and I have been trying to deploy this, is that it's better to do something else on the "off" days. Overall for now, as I've gone from running 0 days per week to running ~3.5 days per week, my take is that this is a good system for me.
At some point it's gotta be fine to go once/day, right?
Clearly lots of folks do. I'm not really interested in doing so though I will say I see the every-other-day thing as a "guideline" not a "rule." Thus far, and I'm all of about a month into this, so there aren't many data to examine, I haven't run two days in a row, but I may this week as for scheduling reasons it may work out better for me to either double-up (across two adjacent days) or skip a day (i.e. space it out to 3), and I figure there's no harm in trying the adjacent day thing and seeing how I react to it.
Overall, my sense is that she's trying to present a good way to use running as a steady and valuable way to exercise (more or less across the entire life span and regardless of how unfit you are) while avoiding injury, annoyance, etc., and that the every-other-day plan is a good one for that context. Which is pretty much how I want to use it, so I'm not tempted to push it too far, so far.
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Following up on the invisible shoes, now called Xero, or something like that. After about 23 miles in them I can say I like them! My feet are still adjusting, but I'm back up to about 5 miles (down from 12 with regular shoes) and I really enjoy it. My schedule has become somewhat erratic, since I'm letting my feet tell me whether I should run again, but otherwise I'm very happy with them.
At this point I don't see any reason to buy anything more expensive (these were $25). Plus, now I don't have to buy fancy socks. Winter will be interesting, but I'll get there when I get there.
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igthebold, do you run on pavement? A couple years ago, I tried running to work on paved sidewalks, and I injured my toe while wearing running flats. I like the idea of huaraches, but I don't want to hurt myself.
Also, have people looked at you funny when you've worn them?
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igthebold, do you run on pavement? A couple years ago, I tried running to work on paved sidewalks, and I injured my toe while wearing running flats. I like the idea of huaraches, but I don't want to hurt myself.
My surfaces, in order of preference:
- mown grass
- asphalt
- sidewalk
One of the big things I like about the barefoot style is that you start off a lot more sensitive, so it's easier to "listen" to your body. As such, I find myself less prone to injury on concrete than I was in shoes. But I've only been doing it for 23 miles. We'll see a few months down the road.
Also, have people looked at you funny when you've worn them?
I don't really pay attention to people.. I'm too busy listening to the latest Brandon Sanderson novel and/or paying attention to my form. However, I have received comments from friends who've seen me running, usually of the bemused, friendly mocking variety. So yeah, they are noticeable.
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Running every other day allows the muscles to recover. Running causes micro-tears that need at least 48 hours to repair themselves. In the process they become a little stronger each time. Also, running each day is not going to make you faster. You have to run faster to get faster, but your body can't take that abuse on a regular basis.
My husband and I follow the "Run Less, Run Faster" program by Bill Pierce, Scott Murr, and Ray Moss. Their program call lfor running only three days a week and each run is different. One run is long and the pace is slower. Another is intervals (400, 800, 1200, or 1600m). The last run is a lactate run-this one is shorter but you are pushing yourself harder. We use this program to improve race times and I am starting to utilize the program with my middle school cross country team. It helps prevent overuse injuries that are commonly seen in runners.
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I feel your pain on spending $100 every few months, but I haven't found a way around it yet. I get pretty bad back pain if I don't use the right shoes. That said I use Brooks Adrenaline which is far from a minimalist shoe.
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That arrangement - with the base, sprints, and intervals - reminds me of training for cyclists.
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I feel your pain on spending $100 every few months, but I haven't found a way around it yet. I get pretty bad back pain if I don't use the right shoes. That said I use Brooks Adrenaline which is far from a minimalist shoe.
I'm glad you're able to manage your pain. Back pain.. I just don't want to even approach that. :P
If barefoot style doesn't work out for me I'm going to take up a different form of exercise, perhaps cycling. My goal is to minimize cost, including the cost of injury.
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If barefoot style doesn't work out for me I'm going to take up a different form of exercise, perhaps cycling. My goal is to minimize cost, including the cost of injury.
Cycling costs me about $0.10/mile, fyi. This includes maintenance parts, depreciation, and health costs (zero, if you hurt yourself cycling you're doing it wrong). Does not include maintenance labor because I do all my own work, nor extra food costs because I'd be doing some other sort of exercise and eating the same amount anyway.
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I run in Vibram 5 fingers. I have like 4 or 5 pairs. You can get them on sale online, but you do have to be a coupon hawk. Retailmenot is a good place to stop before buying ANYTHING online.
I've gotten several pairs for half-price this way. You want to make sure they fit well, though. Maybe a stop at an REI to try pairs on and then buy online for cheaper.
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How do you run without heels hitting first and instead land on the balls of feet? Seems like it take reprogramming the brain/motion
I switched to Vibram FiveFingers a few years ago and believe me, you will adjust! I was always a heel-striker but try doing that barefoot or with FiveFingers and you'll figure out pretty quick it's not pleasant slamming your heel into pavement!
Traditional running shoes really enable heel-striking where FiveFingers will more or less force you to run on the forefoot, which for me was a transition. Also, I found that it's a very light forefoot strike.
In any event, the transition should be slow. A mile here, a couple miles there, until the running form and your legs and feet adjust.
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If barefoot style doesn't work out for me I'm going to take up a different form of exercise, perhaps cycling. My goal is to minimize cost, including the cost of injury.
Another low-injury option: the light blue college town in our area has frighteningly affordable (if you were to use them regularly and buy an annual membership) public pools. I think the skate rink/pool complex in Hillsborough may be similarly affordable. But depending which part of the NC Piedmont you're in, those may or may not be accessible; I don't know about other pools around here (Jordan Lake is free! Chilly for swimming in winter, though).
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Another low-injury option: the light blue college town in our area has frighteningly affordable (if you were to use them regularly and buy an annual membership) public pools. I think the skate rink/pool complex in Hillsborough may be similarly affordable. But depending which part of the NC Piedmont you're in, those may or may not be accessible; I don't know about other pools around here (Jordan Lake is free! Chilly for swimming in winter, though).
Hboro is in range, but impractical. I like swimming, but the cost of membership where I am is insane. The light-blue college town in question is a 20 minute drive from me, which would be an even longer bike ride, after which I've received the workout I was looking for in the first place! :)
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Hboro is in range, but impractical. I like swimming, but the cost of membership where I am is insane. The light-blue college town in question is a 20 minute drive from me, which would be an even longer bike ride, after which I've received the workout I was looking for in the first place! :)
Makes sense -- oh well!
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Nike shoes are the best option for you . You can get Nike shoes below $50 at http://www.wholesale-top-brands.com/
I've seen running shoes mentioned in passing, but I'm curious what others here have found. Running attracts me because it's a fairly minimal sport. I'm also trying to do a style (chi running) that reduces wear and tear on my body, and as such, thick, padded running shoes aren't the thing.
Anybody else do a minimal style of running? What kind of shoes do you use? My ideal shoe would cost $50 or less and last a long time.
I just can't stomach being forced to buy a $100 pair of shoes every few months. :P
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My DH is a lifelong runner. Ran XC for University of Oklahoma. Has done several marathons (always placing), but mostly runs because his body and mind need it.
He tries to run daily and like to avg 50miles per week. He used to train around 70-100 miles/wk.
He runs in the shoes that support his body best. Nike equalon, acics 2100 series. We buy shoes on eBay for half price. I never spend more than $70 including shipping.
The advice on the minimalist shoes and training theories is funny, I'm sure it all works, but does anyone win marathons in vibram finger shoes?
I suppose there is a difference in the goals and motivations of a fitness jogger and a competitive runner. If you want to run, just use shoes that support your body and stride (pronate/suponate?), and run a lot of miles.
I recommend going to a local running store and getting fitted. Then you can order shoes off eBay after you have a few choices that seem to fit you.
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running warehouse! Figure out what make and model you like, and then grab a bunch of them when they go on sale (usually when the one-up on the model is being released). I bought two pairs of Brooks Ravennas for my husband and myself (so 4 pairs of shoes) for about $60/pair. That's a steal considering what Ravennas normally retail for....
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I haven't read all of the posts here, but it seems like there's a bias toward certain types of shoes. Perhaps I am a lone voice, but I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to this question. I think it is important to be fitted by someone who can do a gait analysis and put you in a show that's best for your stride/gait/body mechanics.
Sometimes this costs money. I think you should get fit by someone who knows their stuff, though, then find the same shoes from a cheaper source for repeat purchases.
I also don't recommend finding the cheapest shoes possible, not replacing them after their life is up, or forgoing them entirely. Related to the latter point -- you very well may do okay with minimalist running, or you may not. The jury is still out on this.
A person could legitimately argue that running shoes are waayyy too expensive, but don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Within each type of shoe you can find some cheaper options, but cheap-EST isn't usually the best. Still, even when I factor in my expensive running shoes and replacing them every 4-5 months (during really heavy training), it's still way cheaper than joining a gym. It's a portable hobby that I can enjoy anywhere. The best exercise is one you enjoy. When you enjoy something you keep it up. When you keep it up you reduce the chance of ending up at the doctor's office. WIN-WIN-WIN.
There is no one "right way" to run. You will get as many different opinions about distances, what your goals should be, how often to do it, etcetera. Educate yourself from reliable sources (Runner's World, Jeff Galloway, Hal Higdon, Jenny Hadfield, etcetera.) My advice for a beginner is to not do too much too soon. I think running every other day is healthy and mixing in cross-training is important. I am almost 44 and have been running for 6 years, most recently getting into longer distances (half marathons, currently training for a marathon). I have learned what my body needs for recovery and nutrition, and that comes through trial and error.
Also, if you find getting started intimidating, the walk-run programs advanced by Jeff Galloway can be a good way to start.
Good luck. I wish you well.
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I run minimal. And yes, I pay $100 for my shoes. My favorite thus far, Merrell's Mix Master Glove. Buy 1/2 - 1 size up to allow your toes room and not lose a toenail(s).
Maybe find them cheaper by trading in old shoes for a discount (http://www.kindrunner.com/). Or find last year's model.
I've heard Alta Zeros are good.
I can't run non-minimalst because they hurt my knees everytime, every time. Even in expensive shoes. So I run flat and on trails. Scenery is better anyway. ;)
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I like running in Tevas. Simple, slightly supportive and I don't run into problems with my toes. I hike in them as well unless it is really wet and cold.
They seem low-tech and lean towards the minimal shoe style without enclosing my feet. And I have been around many pairs of Vibrams and man-o-man, those things get stinky. Tevas let my feet feel cool and comfy.
Like these:
http://www.zappos.com/teva-hurricane-xlt-wavy-trail-insignia-blue (http://www.zappos.com/teva-hurricane-xlt-wavy-trail-insignia-blue)
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I am a runner, but not the right guy to ask about saving money here. I have a very wide foot, so the shoes I can pick from are few and far between. I then fight foot injuries.
The best I've been able to do is buy the last model right when it goes on clearance and stock up. I buy a $120 pair new and when they're discontinuing the model I can find it $50-$70.
Its not easy to spend that kind of money, but the pain of bad running shoes isn't worth it to me.
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Ok, I'm going to chime in here, only because it seems like there are a lot of recreational runners here with some information, but not complete information.
Background: I'm an RRCA-certified running coach, a former competitive runner (ultramarathons), personal trainer, 500-ERYT, etc. I don't make my primary living as a fitness professional anymore (though I did a few years ago), but I am still very active in that community at make a good amount of side money (well into the 5 figures) at that job.
So, on to the information, if anyone's interested:
1) As one poster said, there is no one-size-fits-all answer to footwear when running. People's natural stride is different, and there are different types of shoes available for different types of runners. Most running stores will give you a "free" gait analysis, and then pressure you into buying expensive shoes from them. But you're smarter than that, right? RIGHT? You'll get your free analysis, take the info they give you with a "Thanks, let me think about it," and then find some last-season/last-year shoes appropriate for you online for far less.
2) Running is a Mustachian way to keep in shape. Having said that, please, please, please don't skimp on shoes or sports bras. Unless you're male. Then you can skimp on the sports bra. Bottom line, though: for the health and long-term financial benefits, spending $60-120 for shoes is well worth it to keep you out of injury.
3) The science on barefoot/minimalist running is not mixed. With the exception of "studies" with serious external validity issues that were funded by Vibram and a couple of other shoe companies, the science makes it clear that running barefoot or in minimal shoes INCREASES, not decreases, injury. The only exception to this is if you are running in (loose-ish) sand, when it is fine to go barefoot. (Side note: the minimal running movement came out of a strange bastardization of Chris MacDougall's book Born to Run, which highlighted ultrarunner Scott Jurek (NOT a minimalist/barefoot runner) and a tribe of runners who ran barefoot on sand. The "evolutionary" argument that we are meant to run barefoot discounts the fact that our forefathers who ran barefoot did so in a mostly sand environment, and certainly never on pavement.)
4) The science on forefoot landing (which is unrelated to minimalist shoes, contrary to their marketing materials) is more mixed. For a while, it seemed like it was a better option, injury-wise, but more recent data shows that might not be true. Specifically, the link between forefoot landing and lower injury incidents has only been empirically established with competitive collegiate runners, and some studies have shown that forefoot landing has a lower number of injuries, but the injuries that do occur with forefoot landers are more serious. There is, however, some data that forefoot landing will make you faster. (If you want to try forefoot landing, think about leaning forward from your ankles when running. Keep the rest of your body straight, but try to keep your feet under/behind you.)
5) If you are running, even recreationally, it is also in your best interest to do weight training and flexibility training to prevent injury. For weight training, I recommend basic core/lower body exercises (squats, deadlifts, Pilates 100s, etc). For flexibility, nothing beats King Pigeon pose in yoga. (Any of these variations: http://www.yogaoutlet.com/userfiles/Guide/image/Yoga/Yoga-One-Legged-King-Pigeon-Pose-300x350.jpg)
If anyone has other questions, feel free to PM me for advice. Or, if you think it's relevant to the entire class, post here and I'll try to check this thread and respond.
Hope that helps!
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For all my work in retail selling athletic shoes, two valuable pieces of money-saving advice I got: "foam density" and trail running shoes
Press the foam all around the shoe outsoles with a finger. The cheap stuff will squish easily and is often white. Denser foam is often darker or speckled colour and lasts longer. It's harder to press down.
Although they are a bit heavier, usually the most durable outsole will be a "trail running" shoe. They have good cushioning, and a little stability. Usually those have nice dense foam also. They work fine on a any surface and have better grip in the wet.
I've had great ones from New Balance. If you can run on trails and not pavement or concrete, it is easier on the shoes and your joints too.
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I’ve never been a runner. I was always the slow kid at the end of the line when we had to run in gym class. I’ve tried to take it up a few times and either get bored with it or start to feel some funny stuff in one or the other knee. I’m also so slow that walkers sometimes pass me. I’m more of an endurance athlete than someone focused on speed. The tortoise, not the hare.
I live close to the beach and love to walk on the flat, soft sand. I can do 5 miles on it - probably more if time wasn’t a constraint. I do it barefoot. I’ve seen some people doing it with running shoes, but I don’t even like to walk in the sand with flip flops. It seems like the shoe contorts this way and that over the uneven surface of the sand and might even be more harmful to the ankles. When barefoot, my foot can gradually conform to the sand surface and it is enjoyable. I think wearing shoes on sand might be more injury-prone, but I have no facts to support this, just my happy feet. As a side note, the sand is an excellent exfoliator for the feet.
I notice my calves get quite a workout when I walk on the sand. I’ve even tried jogging parts of it, and my knees never bother me. Compared to asphalt walking/running, I think it is a more natural workout. I guess my higher property taxes by being close to the beach results in unexpected savings in not needing to buy running shoes. ;-)
I would feel uncomfortable walking and running barefoot on asphalt. Your feet get really dirty and there’s chance of injury with broken glass or other things.
A friend of mine does trail running. I’m not sure you can do that barefoot. I’ve tried walking on a hard packed path along the beach which is topped with sand but also had fragments of shells – so I guess it is similar to trail running. I tried it barefoot once and got a blister on the bottom of my feet. This trail seems to be better with shoes on. In fact, after reading this thread I ran this trail tonight with some old shoes on and focused on landing on the balls of my feet and I had no pain running a lot longer than I usually do – yippee!!!
I have a question - If I ever want to train for long hikes (Machu Picchu, Camino de Santiago, Appalachian Trail), I would think the sand walking would be very helpful. But then I worry that my feet won’t be used to wearing hiking shoes and I could get blisters and stuff if jumping from sand walking to trail hiking. Any thoughts?
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New Balance trail running shoes 'cause...well...I'm a trail runner. Average 40 to 50 miles/week - lots more if I'm training for an Ultra. They seem to support we well, do good in all trail conditions, and last a lot longer then minimalist shoes (which I am convinced are an evil plot by manufacturers to get us to buy expensive shoes more often!). I generally buy several pairs at once when I find them on sale, which is often at a discount place like Marshalls or TJ Maxx. If I can't find them there then I will splurge and get a pair at a sporting goods or running store.
For those of you who do barefoot running have you ever had problems with Planter Fasciitis? It's a problem with a lot of minimalist runners I know as well as regular people who walk barefooted or in flat shoes like flip flops.
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Hey Daisy - Sand walking is a great muscle builder for the legs (and us beach volleyball players know :-)!) and also a great endurance builder but the motion thru the sand is way different then walking on a flat hard surface like a trail. Kind of move the hip and legs different and scrunch up the toes, etc... So if you want o get "foot ready" for a long hike I think you'd have to practice in hiking shoes for the best results. I'd still do the sand walks as they are really great but hit the trails in your boots! You might like trail running shoes better then hiking boots - less sturdy but much more comfortable.
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I've used a couple pair of Vivo Barefoot Ultra Pure shoes -- http://www.amazon.com/Vivobarefoot-Mens-Ultra-Pure-Shoe/dp/B009LHZRVU/ref=pd_sbs_shoe_1 -- that are minimal. I got them for $37 per pair.
For runs over 15 miles the balls of my feet hurt if I use them. I started using these Merrells, which I got at an outlet store for about $50 -- http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Mens-Access-Trail-Running/dp/B00E8AOYCS/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_2_64AT?ie=UTF8&refRID=1KNKBP4Q2S9853H70V38 -- and they work great. I did a 20-mile run in them the other day and 18.5 a couple weeks ago and they were great.
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Hey Daisy - Sand walking is a great muscle builder for the legs (and us beach volleyball players know :-)!) and also a great endurance builder but the motion thru the sand is way different then walking on a flat hard surface like a trail. Kind of move the hip and legs different and scrunch up the toes, etc... So if you want o get "foot ready" for a long hike I think you'd have to practice in hiking shoes for the best results. I'd still do the sand walks as they are really great but hit the trails in your boots! You might like trail running shoes better then hiking boots - less sturdy but much more comfortable.
I figured you need to train in the shoes you will use.
I usually have big issues with shoes because I have narrow feet. I went to a running store once to have them suggest a shoe and took my thick socks with me. The lady said I shouldn't be using thick socks with running shoes. But then she tried almost every shoe in the store and analyzed my walk and came to the conclusion that in my particular case I should use thick socks. Sigh...
Same thing when I went shopping for skates. At least the store had one particular pair that was for narrow feet. The lady at first dissuaded me from trying it on because it was super-narrow. I put them on and was in heaven! It makes a big difference because I can't control the shoe if it's too wide for me.
Any suggestions for running or trail shoes for narrow feet? I went to an REI store once and another customer suggested a brand but I can't remember the name. I think French or Italian brands are better - at least they were for my cycling shoes.
Unfortunately, I don't think I will be able to find running or trail shoes for myself at the discount stores. :-(
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Any suggestions for running or trail shoes for narrow feet?
I have average width feet, and I use Brooks for running and New Balance for trail hiking/running, which are brands that are IMO the best brands as far as working with most people's gaits. However, I have had clients with narrow feet who have had good luck with Mizuno shoes, another solid brand, so you might want to try them.
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Any suggestions for running or trail shoes for narrow feet?
I have average width feet, and I use Brooks for running and New Balance for trail hiking/running, which are brands that are IMO the best brands as far as working with most people's gaits. However, I have had clients with narrow feet who have had good luck with Mizuno shoes, another solid brand, so you might want to try them.
Thanks, I will check out the Mizunos. I see they are Japanese shoes.
Would you suggest trail running shoes even for asphalt? I'd probably use them most on a hard-packed sand trail by the beach but was wondering how trail shoes performed on asphalt (my second choice of running surface).
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Another Big +1 for barefoot running. I've been at it for 6 years now (currently age 47) with no problems whatsoever. I'm not a fan of the "minimalist" shoes. I only wear something when it's too cold to go barefoot. In those cases, I wear a $10 pair of aqua socks I bought at Target 5 years ago, along with regular socks underneath.
Barefoot running made all my prior knee injuries go away. You don't need minimalist shoes to protect your feet; after a while, your soles will become as tough as moccasins, and feeling the ground is a big benefit compared to wearing shoes or anything else.
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I think people are putting a little too much faith in forefoot striking on this forum. Running in this style is indeed more efficient and faster, but injury rates are no different- only the types of injuries are different. You are more likely to have issues with plantar fasciitis, stress fractures in the foot, achilles tendon issues, and calf issues running in a minimalist fashion, but less likely to suffer from runner's knee or have back issues. Part of the problem is that people who run with a heel-strike tend to try switching shoes before switching technique. Your best bet is to keep running in your crappy worn out sneakers and gradually switch technique. The other issue is that people tend to only consider forefoot strike and forget all the other components of technique (lean, cadence, hip and arm position, centre of gravity, for example). The other thing about the very minimalist shoes is that for most road runners, you will almost certainly not be able to run long distances on a regular basis on pavement without injury in them (different story if you run regularly on trails, maybe), especially if you're switching over from a heel-strike, unbalanced, low cadence running style (ie the style that most people use). I speak on this from experience- I have suffered from plantar fasciitis, had IT band issues, and suffered severe forefoot pain from major blood blisters that have formed in my forefoot from wearing barefoot shoes without a wide enough forefoot (not allowing my forefoot to splay out). All of this after I changed my technique. However, I've also improved my speed dramatically and have now focused on other components of my technique so that I'm confident I won't suffer from chronic injuries in the foreseeable future. Anyway, all this to say: be very careful! And for the record, I run in Altras and can't recommend them enough, my current pair was $65 on Amazon.
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I like trail shoes on asphalt just fine. I ran on one trail that had portions of asphalt on the newer sections, dirt/gravel on the rest. It was great!
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For narrow feet Google "narrow foot lacing shoes" and you'll get some suggestions that help too.
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I think people are putting a little too much faith in forefoot striking on this forum. Running in this style is indeed more efficient and faster, but injury rates are no different- only the types of injuries are different. You are more likely to have issues with plantar fasciitis, stress fractures in the foot, achilles tendon issues, and calf issues running in a minimalist fashion, but less likely to suffer from runner's knee or have back issues. Part of the problem is that people who run with a heel-strike tend to try switching shoes before switching technique. Your best bet is to keep running in your crappy worn out sneakers and gradually switch technique. The other issue is that people tend to only consider forefoot strike and forget all the other components of technique (lean, cadence, hip and arm position, centre of gravity, for example). The other thing about the very minimalist shoes is that for most road runners, you will almost certainly not be able to run long distances on a regular basis on pavement without injury in them (different story if you run regularly on trails, maybe), especially if you're switching over from a heel-strike, unbalanced, low cadence running style (ie the style that most people use). I speak on this from experience- I have suffered from plantar fasciitis, had IT band issues, and suffered severe forefoot pain from major blood blisters that have formed in my forefoot from wearing barefoot shoes without a wide enough forefoot (not allowing my forefoot to splay out). All of this after I changed my technique. However, I've also improved my speed dramatically and have now focused on other components of my technique so that I'm confident I won't suffer from chronic injuries in the foreseeable future. Anyway, all this to say: be very careful! And for the record, I run in Altras and can't recommend them enough, my current pair was $65 on Amazon.
I think those are all legitimate concerns, but also all attributable to trying to do anything too much, too soon. As long as one gives themselves enough time to adjust, everything should be fine. It's like anything else -- you can't go from zero weightlifting to trying to bench 200 lbs., or trying to swim 1000 yards in open water without building up to it.
The other thing about the very minimalist shoes is that for most road runners, you will almost certainly not be able to run long distances on a regular basis on pavement without injury in them
I can't speak to the minimalist or (oxymoronic) "barefoot shoes", but there are many barefoot runners who run marathons and more. I'm nowhere near that level, but I've always been able to run barefoot as far as I used to run with shoes. I've run a half marathon barefoot on pavement and asphalt and was no worse for wear. But when I used to run in traditional running shoes, I developed knee injuries that were going to permanently end my running career (and the ortho doctor told me my running days were over in my late 30's). Now, in my mid-late 40's I'm running better than ever thanks to switching to barefoot (and FWIW, I land somewhere around mid foot or a little forefoot).
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I don't wear minimalist shoes. What I did is I got fit at a running store for the appropriate shoes and once the first pair was wearing out I googled the brand and model of shoe and found a store trying to dump old inventory and got the next few pairs for cheaper than the first.
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Since several people have asked about the technique for running barefoot (or for "minimalist" shoes), here's how I learned it:
1. Stand tall with your feet about hips' width apart. Keep your body erect, and your head up. Bend your knees slightly so that your weight shifts to the front of your feet. This is the position you will run in.
2. Relax
3. Run gently, taking small and quick steps. Think about lifting each foot for the next step as soon as it strikes the ground. Run with a cadence of 180 - 220 steps per minute. To increase speed, first increase the cadence before taking longer strides.
4. Stay erect with your head up as you run, and lead with your hips. Lean forward gently only as needed to climb hills.
Bonus Tips:
1. Don't worry so much about how your foot lands. Just let your feet relax, run gently and with your knees slightly bent so that you naturally land on your forefoot or mid-foot.
2. Keep your arms to your side with elbows bent no more than 90 degrees. Thumbs should be pointing forward so your arms are moving forward and back, not across your body.
3. Start slowly. You will be using muscles that you have not used previously, and your feet won't be used to it. Take time to build up and after a couple of months you'll be able to go as far as you want. You might want to start on grass or sand, then work up to asphalt and pavement. Or take walks barefoot on pavement until your soles toughen up a bit.
4. Ideally your feet will land directly in front of you, as though you were running on a line painted on the ground.
5. Keep your feet moving quickly so you aren't plodding along.
6. Scan the ground out ahead of you for any sharp or dangerous objects, although as your feet get toughened up it won't matter much what you step on.
7. Don't worry about your feet getting gross, because they won't. The soles of your feet won't be hard, they will be like soft leather or suede. Your feet, Achilles tendons, and calves will also get incredibly strong, your arch will lift and you may go down a size or two in shoe size because of your lifted arch.
8. Although this style of running may feel unnatural at first, it is the way we were "Born To Run." We have learned bad running habits because of padded running shoes, and it may take a couple of weeks to undo the lifetime habits. After a little while of running barefoot, you will wonder why the hell you ever ran in shoes.
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So I ventured out on my second running attempt with the forefoot running technique, and it was another success!
I tried a different surface this time. It was an asphalt walking path around a lake. I walked on the asphalt to warm up, then ran alongside the path on the grass. The grass was barely cut so the long blades and stuff added a lot of resistance, but landing on the grass felt soft and non-jarring. However, a few times I had to go to the asphalt and running on that just felt more jarring on the legs.
I was wearing really old running shoes that are probably somewhat worn out because I've had them for years and have used them in the weight room. And I felt no pain in the feet, calves, or knees. I ran a further distance that I could have with my previous running technique.
Thanks all! Now I just need to find me some narrow shoes that don't require me to use really thick socks.
As far as the comment on barefoot running getting the bottoms of your feet all leathery and stuff, that just doesn't sound too attractive on a woman. I'm always using the pommel stone to smooth out the bottoms of my feet. If I took up barefoot running, would I be constantly fighting this need to smooth out the rough foot soles?
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As far as the comment on barefoot running getting the bottoms of your feet all leathery and stuff, that just doesn't sound too attractive on a woman. I'm always using the pommel stone to smooth out the bottoms of my feet. If I took up barefoot running, would I be constantly fighting this need to smooth out the rough foot soles?
Hi Daisy,
Running barefoot will automatically take care of smoothing out the bottoms of your feet like your pommel stone does, you'll never have to use it again. Running on pavement or any other rough surface continually "sands" your feet. They don't get leathery in the gross sense; that is, tough, cracked, and hard. Instead, they get like extremely smooth, soft, and supple fine leather. Sometimes the soles of my feet feel as smooth as glass. You won't be disappointed in the results, your feet will be the best condition ever.
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Ok, I'm going to chime in here, only because it seems like there are a lot of recreational runners here with some information, but not complete information.
Background: I'm an RRCA-certified running coach, a former competitive runner (ultramarathons), personal trainer, 500-ERYT, etc. I don't make my primary living as a fitness professional anymore (though I did a few years ago), but I am still very active in that community at make a good amount of side money (well into the 5 figures) at that job.
So, on to the information, if anyone's interested:
1) As one poster said, there is no one-size-fits-all answer to footwear when running. People's natural stride is different, and there are different types of shoes available for different types of runners. Most running stores will give you a "free" gait analysis, and then pressure you into buying expensive shoes from them. But you're smarter than that, right? RIGHT? You'll get your free analysis, take the info they give you with a "Thanks, let me think about it," and then find some last-season/last-year shoes appropriate for you online for far less.
2) Running is a Mustachian way to keep in shape. Having said that, please, please, please don't skimp on shoes or sports bras. Unless you're male. Then you can skimp on the sports bra. Bottom line, though: for the health and long-term financial benefits, spending $60-120 for shoes is well worth it to keep you out of injury.
3) The science on barefoot/minimalist running is not mixed. With the exception of "studies" with serious external validity issues that were funded by Vibram and a couple of other shoe companies, the science makes it clear that running barefoot or in minimal shoes INCREASES, not decreases, injury. The only exception to this is if you are running in (loose-ish) sand, when it is fine to go barefoot. (Side note: the minimal running movement came out of a strange bastardization of Chris MacDougall's book Born to Run, which highlighted ultrarunner Scott Jurek (NOT a minimalist/barefoot runner) and a tribe of runners who ran barefoot on sand. The "evolutionary" argument that we are meant to run barefoot discounts the fact that our forefathers who ran barefoot did so in a mostly sand environment, and certainly never on pavement.)
4) The science on forefoot landing (which is unrelated to minimalist shoes, contrary to their marketing materials) is more mixed. For a while, it seemed like it was a better option, injury-wise, but more recent data shows that might not be true. Specifically, the link between forefoot landing and lower injury incidents has only been empirically established with competitive collegiate runners, and some studies have shown that forefoot landing has a lower number of injuries, but the injuries that do occur with forefoot landers are more serious. There is, however, some data that forefoot landing will make you faster. (If you want to try forefoot landing, think about leaning forward from your ankles when running. Keep the rest of your body straight, but try to keep your feet under/behind you.)
5) If you are running, even recreationally, it is also in your best interest to do weight training and flexibility training to prevent injury. For weight training, I recommend basic core/lower body exercises (squats, deadlifts, Pilates 100s, etc). For flexibility, nothing beats King Pigeon pose in yoga. (Any of these variations: http://www.yogaoutlet.com/userfiles/Guide/image/Yoga/Yoga-One-Legged-King-Pigeon-Pose-300x350.jpg)
If anyone has other questions, feel free to PM me for advice. Or, if you think it's relevant to the entire class, post here and I'll try to check this thread and respond.
Hope that helps!
+1 to everything said here, very good advice.
I am an avid recreational runner who participates in several 5Ks during the year and 1 half-marathon per year. I train with a larger group of runners who are much more serious and who participate in marathons, ultras, ironman triathlons, etc. There were a few in that group who tried barefoot/minimalist running over the last few years because of it's popularity. Every one of the runners in the group has abandoned barefoot running completely. Several still have lightweight minimal shoes that they use in small doses on specific training days.
I'm bitterly frugal and over the (earlier) years I tried many cheap shoes. I've also tried several more expensive ones, asics, saucony, brooks that were recommended based on my build, gate, pronation, etc. I finally found that Asics Gel Nimbus is the model that works best for me, even though it's not the exact recommended shoe based on the factors I mentioned above. I've gotten these as cheap as $80 and paid as much as $120. Obviously every individual will need to find the shoe that works best for them, and unfortunately that may take some trial and error (but reading up on recommended shoe types is a good place to start).
Where price is concerned: I run 600-700 miles in these shoes and many of the cheaper ones over the years were only good for 300 or so. As infrequently as new shoes are required, I'd gladly pay $150 if I thought it was the best fit.
Where cost is concerned: I have found that my shoes last much longer if I rotate 2 pair over a given period. I usually look for last year's model when the new models arrive and try to get 2 pair of them at a time. I live in a humid area and my feet sweat extensively. I think it's allowing the shoes time to dry completely before the next use that is most beneficial.
Where training is concerned: everyone has different goals (longer distance, faster time, etc). But as a general rule, please don't jump quickly into minimalist shoes or barefoot running, or even forefoot running. My opinion is that focusing exclusively on any of those methods is not going to increase health or performance. I do think mixing in some training of those types, in slowly increasing(but still small) amounts, can help performance. Even if you are in great shape and run 50 miles per week, you are at greater risk of injury if you start out with a 5 mile run in minimal shoes. Just work it in slowly.
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I split my running between traditional running shoes for long distances (I'm training for my first marathon) and vibram five fingers for shorter training runs. I've been very happy with both but I will say that the vibrams seem to last forever.
Side note: I'm a crossfit junky and do most workouts barefoot. Exceptions being anything involving running outside and double unders, those I do in vibrams. So I feel like my feet are well conditioned to being barefoot but I still have to be careful when running.
Running in minimalists shoes or barefoot IS good for your body. Jumping in full speed and not allowing your body to slowly adapt is the dangerous part. It took me a long time to get used to running in vibrams.
Whatever you do, take it slow and pay attention to how your body feels.
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As far as the comment on barefoot running getting the bottoms of your feet all leathery and stuff, that just doesn't sound too attractive on a woman. I'm always using the pommel stone to smooth out the bottoms of my feet. If I took up barefoot running, would I be constantly fighting this need to smooth out the rough foot soles?
Hi Daisy,
Running barefoot will automatically take care of smoothing out the bottoms of your feet like your pommel stone does, you'll never have to use it again. Running on pavement or any other rough surface continually "sands" your feet. They don't get leathery in the gross sense; that is, tough, cracked, and hard. Instead, they get like extremely smooth, soft, and supple fine leather. Sometimes the soles of my feet feel as smooth as glass. You won't be disappointed in the results, your feet will be the best condition ever.
Oooh...I have a strange fetish to touch the bottom of your feet now. You make it sound lovely.
Sorry if this is inappropriate. Maybe it will get deleted by the moderators.
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Oooh...I have a strange fetish to touch the bottom of your feet now. You make it sound lovely.
Sorry if this is inappropriate. Maybe it will get deleted by the moderators.
Well hey now! I hope it doesn't get deleted.
3) The science on barefoot/minimalist running is not mixed. With the exception of "studies" with serious external validity issues that were funded by Vibram and a couple of other shoe companies, the science makes it clear that running barefoot or in minimal shoes INCREASES, not decreases, injury.
Hmmm -- this posting seems to have been deleted, but I'd be interested in seeing any of this "clear science." Since this claim contradicts everything I have read (and my own experience), I did a Google search on "barefoot running science" and "barefoot running vs. shoes" to see if there is some new information. In both searches, all of the first page results returned studies that said in more cases than not, barefoot running results in less force that may protect against injury. Or they said the science is unclear that running in shoes is better than going barefoot. I did not cherry pick these results and anyone can do their own search, but here are a couple of citations that came up:
Kinematic and kinetic analyses show that even on hard surfaces, barefoot runners who forefoot strike generate smaller collision forces than shod rear-foot strikers. The difference is primarily due to a more plantar-flexed foot at landing and more ankle compliance during impact. This decreases the effective mass of the body when it collides with the ground. Fore- and mid-foot strike running gaits were probably more common when humans ran barefoot or in minimal shoes. This may protect the feet and lower limbs from some of the impact-related injuries now experienced by a high percentage of runners.
http://breakingmuscle.com/running/the-pros-and-cons-of-barefoot-running-what-the-research-says
He [Dr. Lieberman] believes that while cushioned, high-heeled running shoes may be comfortable, they limit the amount one can feel the ground, making it harder to mitigate impact, and easier for runners to land on their heels. He goes on to say that running shoes may weaken foot muscles and arch strength through reliance on arch supports and stiffened soles and that this weakness itself may contribute to ‘excessive pronation’ and plantar Fasciitis.
Both Dr. Lieberman and his colleagues, along with Dr. William L. Jungers who published a biomechanical editorial in this issue of nature (which we’ll be reviewing shortly) entitled ‘Barefoot running strikes back’ agree that more study is necessary on injury rates between barefoot runners and their shod compatriots.
http://runbare.com/389/new-study-by-dr-daniel-lieberman-on-barefoot-running-makes-cover-story-in-nature-journal
It has also been found that running in conventional running shoes increases stress on the knee joints up to 38%, although it is still unclear if this leads to a higher rate of heel injuries or not.[33][34][35] One study suggests that there is no evidence that cushioning or pronation control in shoes reduces injury rates or reduces performance.[36]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_running
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It takes me forever to get my hammer toes into those toed shoes, so I quit messing with them. I'd like to run barefoot some. But I would have to start out by running a little way (half a mile at first?) then put my shoes on and finish my workout, as I almost never run less than 5 miles. It's just not worth the time. The trick will be to identify how far I can run barefoot, at first, without getting shin splints or some other injury.
Do you barefoot runners do it on gravel roads? I'm mostly a trail runner, but there is a lot of gravel, too. And at home I run up the logging roads.
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This forefoot landing technique has been such a blessing! I can run now without having knee pain. I am still using my old shoes, not barefoot, and it has worked.
The only issue is that I am still a slow runner. Especially with this forefoot landing it seems like I can't take long strides. What's the key in getting faster? I had fast walkers pass me today. I feel like I like the cadence I am at so I'm not sure if I should be increasing it.
Help me feel the need for speed!
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I'm so baffled by this sudden culture of "must"s in exercise. My SO is studying to be one of these people who prescribe how we should exercise or use our bodies and I still don't get it, even if I'm supportive of the field of study.
So anybody have fancy erudite thoughts on moccasins for running?
We've been running around for centuries upon centuries in very minimally supportive footwear. My favorite shoes for sprinty outdoors activity on uneven terrain have been a pair of leather ghillie moccasins - you can make them yourself, I'll link a tutorial I found on someone's blog in 2.2 seconds of Google effort. My particular pair has a tough outer sole applied (I bought them because I liked the people selling them - still going fine twelve years later) which could probably be accomplished with a piece of car mat or similar and contact cement. But the upshot of this sort of thing is it's basically a device to hold a shield to the bottom of your foot for pointy-rock-avoidant purposes; they don't change the way your foot hits the ground much, they're super-comfortable, they breathe well (they're sometimes called "bog shoes"), and you have the option of wearing a sock underneath when it's cold. Make with scrap leather and it's probably going to cost >$10.
I also think they're darn pretty on lady feet; they are still worn as dancing shoes in highland dancing.
http://earthandliving.blogspot.com/2008/08/viking-shoes-tutorial-sort-of.html
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This forefoot landing technique has been such a blessing! I can run now without having knee pain. I am still using my old shoes, not barefoot, and it has worked.
The only issue is that I am still a slow runner. Especially with this forefoot landing it seems like I can't take long strides. What's the key in getting faster? I had fast walkers pass me today. I feel like I like the cadence I am at so I'm not sure if I should be increasing it.
Help me feel the need for speed!
That's excellent! Having a shorter stride is a good thing, it means you're doing it right. You'll find that your cadence should increase quite a bit from what you're used to. You'll get used to it soon enough though. You should target a minimum of 180 steps per minute. Anywhere from 180-220/minute is good. To increase your speed, increase your cadence and not your stride. Only when you start to get to 200+ steps/minute should you perhaps increase your stride.
If you're doing 180+ steps/minute, you'll be passing just about everyone, even with small steps. If you struggle to keep up with 180 steps/minute, take shorter steps.
If it helps you find the right cadence, you can find some songs you like that are 90-100 beats/minute and match your running cadence to those. It's not necessarily one of my favorites, but you might know that counting to "Staying Alive" is sometimes taught as the cadence for CPR at 100 beats/minute. If you don't run with an iPod or something, you can always think of that song in your head in order to get the right running cadence going!
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I bought a pair of xero sandals and tried to run in them and it didn't work for me. Caused pain in my feet and calves. I am tired of having to replace running shoes every few months when the heal wears out. I usually buy some kind of Asics, pay in the $50 range. I recently was at Walmart and bought a pair of Starter running shoes for $19.74. They are light, comfortable and so far so good.
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Do some of you guys run during winter?
If so, what kind of shoes are you using? I will most likely go with a minimalist type of shoe, but with winter in Canada, I was wondering if it was fit for cold and lots of snow.
Something like : http://us.vibram.com/shop/fivefingers/men/outdoor/trek-ascent-insulated/M53.html?dwvar_M53_color=Tan%20%2F%20Grey%20%2F%20Black
Or : http://www.amazon.ca/Mens-Salomon-Speedcross-silver-metallic-x/dp/B004LB4V72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450393845&sr=8-1&keywords=Salomon+Speedcross
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There is an article in one of the most recent issues online of Trail Runner of how to give new life to old running shoes, DIY style. You should check it out.
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There is an article in one of the most recent issues online of Trail Runner of how to give new life to old running shoes, DIY style. You should check it out.
Thanks! For those interested : http://www.trailrunnermag.com/component/content/article/22-trail-running-shoes/2000-5-ways-to-repair-trail-running-shoes
I do keep my shoes for a pretty long time. My running shoes are beaten up, eaten by my dog and pretty dirty but I use them when it rains.
I have a minimalist pair for gym and everyday's shoes.
But would still like to invest in a pair that will keep my feet warm and dry for Canadian winter.
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Thanks. I'll have to focus on it more than you suggest because everytime I run my heels hit first and hard, no matter how fast or slow I am going. Also note that I am not a regular runner so maybe I just need to do it more.
Regular long-time runner here. The more you run, the more efficient your body mechanics will become over time. Many people, me included, start out as heel-strikers when they first get started. As you run more and farther, your body will fine-tune its adaptations to become ever more efficient, and you may eventually find that you have transitioned to land on your midfoot without even realizing it. (True story: I didn't realize I was landing on my midfoot until my daughter once took a slow-mo video of me running. Very educational 10 second video!)
Also, just throwing this out there in case it applies to you: Do not run exclusively on a treadmill. The biomechanics of treadmill running are very different than running outside on a variety of surfaces. I run on trails 90% of the time, which I love, but when I do occasionally run on the mill, I notice that I'm landing on my heels again rather than on my midfoot.
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Ok, I'm going to chime in here, only because it seems like there are a lot of recreational runners here with some information, but not complete information.
Background: I'm an RRCA-certified running coach, a former competitive runner (ultramarathons), personal trainer, 500-ERYT, etc. I don't make my primary living as a fitness professional anymore (though I did a few years ago), but I am still very active in that community at make a good amount of side money (well into the 5 figures) at that job.
So, on to the information, if anyone's interested:
1) As one poster said, there is no one-size-fits-all answer to footwear when running. People's natural stride is different, and there are different types of shoes available for different types of runners. Most running stores will give you a "free" gait analysis, and then pressure you into buying expensive shoes from them. But you're smarter than that, right? RIGHT? You'll get your free analysis, take the info they give you with a "Thanks, let me think about it," and then find some last-season/last-year shoes appropriate for you online for far less.
2) Running is a Mustachian way to keep in shape. Having said that, please, please, please don't skimp on shoes or sports bras. Unless you're male. Then you can skimp on the sports bra. Bottom line, though: for the health and long-term financial benefits, spending $60-120 for shoes is well worth it to keep you out of injury.
3) The science on barefoot/minimalist running is not mixed. With the exception of "studies" with serious external validity issues that were funded by Vibram and a couple of other shoe companies, the science makes it clear that running barefoot or in minimal shoes INCREASES, not decreases, injury. The only exception to this is if you are running in (loose-ish) sand, when it is fine to go barefoot. (Side note: the minimal running movement came out of a strange bastardization of Chris MacDougall's book Born to Run, which highlighted ultrarunner Scott Jurek (NOT a minimalist/barefoot runner) and a tribe of runners who ran barefoot on sand. The "evolutionary" argument that we are meant to run barefoot discounts the fact that our forefathers who ran barefoot did so in a mostly sand environment, and certainly never on pavement.)
4) The science on forefoot landing (which is unrelated to minimalist shoes, contrary to their marketing materials) is more mixed. For a while, it seemed like it was a better option, injury-wise, but more recent data shows that might not be true. Specifically, the link between forefoot landing and lower injury incidents has only been empirically established with competitive collegiate runners, and some studies have shown that forefoot landing has a lower number of injuries, but the injuries that do occur with forefoot landers are more serious. There is, however, some data that forefoot landing will make you faster. (If you want to try forefoot landing, think about leaning forward from your ankles when running. Keep the rest of your body straight, but try to keep your feet under/behind you.)
5) If you are running, even recreationally, it is also in your best interest to do weight training and flexibility training to prevent injury. For weight training, I recommend basic core/lower body exercises (squats, deadlifts, Pilates 100s, etc). For flexibility, nothing beats King Pigeon pose in yoga. (Any of these variations: http://www.yogaoutlet.com/userfiles/Guide/image/Yoga/Yoga-One-Legged-King-Pigeon-Pose-300x350.jpg)
If anyone has other questions, feel free to PM me for advice. Or, if you think it's relevant to the entire class, post here and I'll try to check this thread and respond.
Hope that helps!
+2
I've done a lot of running in my life and I'll chime in my 2c
1. Cheap shoes are OK for jogging a couple miles, but not serious running. I've tried dozens of shoes from various manufacturers over the years and I have never been happy with $20-60 shoes. I routinely spend $80-120 and am thrilled to pay it. PRO TIP: When you find a shoe you really love go online and get another pair at the end of the season for up to a 50% discount! Rotate the shoes for twice the longevity.
2. Running/jogging has an incredibly high rate of injury. It seems so nice and gentle but don't be fooled. Don't over train.
3. Minimalist running sounds great when you read a book like Born To Run, but I'm not sure you can apply those principals to the general population. Tribes of barefoot runners are genetically similar and the ability to run this way is actually a trait that is selected for. I experimented a little and actually liked it. My advice: go SLOW! No more than 1/2 mile increase per run. If you go run 5 miles barefoot with no practice yo will likely be unable to walk for days (not that I would ever do anything like this *cough, cough).
4. Heel/midfoot/forefoot strike is controversial. Everyone had different mechanics. Injuries tend to occur when one tries to quickly change their running style. Go slow.
5. I like the book Lore of Running by Noakes. Great review of the science and studies of running. May be a little dated, don't know if there is a newer version.
6. Core strength goes a long way in preventing injury, improving form and running faster. I'm at my best running 3 days a week with strength and flexibility work on off days.
Now get out there and run! It's awesome!
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I was just thinking about this too. Just bought a pair for $120 and came to realization these wont last too long now that I am doing greater distances. Here is my idea to offset. Since cross training has been shown to be extremely synergistic, I plan to spend more tine training on my bike so I can decrease miles put on shoes.
I am also buying shoes that I would enjoy wearing around in most settings once they are "retired" from running.
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I did spend $100 on my last pair of running shoes, but they have lasted me two years. I don't run high mileage though, maybe 10-12 miles a week on average.
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You could always make huaraches. Basically running sandals.
One thing to be careful with minimalist shoes in general is to start slow. That's one reason barefoot running is good, your skin on the bottom of your feet will hurt before you injure yourself. It's sort of a self limiter. Look around online for advice on how much to run per session starting out if you're wearing shoes. With shoes like vibrams you don't have that limiting factor, so some people go out and run 4 miles their first time wearing them. Had a friend who did that and got a stress fracture, he was in a brace for a month or two, blamed it on the shoes.
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I'm a little torn on the concept of forefoot strike running. History's most successful of all two-legged walkers/runner are, of course, theropod dinosaurs - now birds. They have a digitigrade stance and their foot looks nothing like our plantigrade feet. Later, more advanced theropods had an even more advanced condition known as arctometatarsalia where the metatarsals were laterally compressed. They certainly don't have a heel like us.
I suspect humans are/were in the early evolutionary transition period between plantigrade and digitigrade. If we continued to evolve like bushmen then we probably would have gone down a different path, though I have no idea how our feet would evolve now given the changes in evolutionary pressures in the past couple hundred years.
This of course has nothing to do with running shoes but is still interesting. I like forefoot running for short distances because it makes me feel more like a fast predatory dinosaur hunting down prey. But I got this big old heavy heel hanging out there slowing me down just waiting to be used...it's such a temptation.
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I did spend $100 on my last pair of running shoes, but they have lasted me two years. I don't run high mileage though, maybe 10-12 miles a week on average.
My rule is to run on my shoes until something either hurts or my feet start feeling more tired. I know people that count miles and such but I'm way to lazy for that!
Shoes can last quite a while at 10-12 miles a week, and in my experience the more expensive shoes just last longer - especially the trail shoes.
I have heard some say that you should stop running on shoes after a year or so because the elastic properties change over time - don't know if this is true or not.
Also as someone mentioned, they make good regular shoes after they have lost their usefulness for running. I always have 2 or 3 "retired" running shoes lying around. I even have a specific pair that I use for mowing the lawn that are very grass stained and horrible looking.
After they have outlived any usefulness call your local running store to see if they recycle them :)
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I'd recommend starting with a minimalist-leaning shoe, especially if you're brand new to running, and then phase in barefoot or more barefoot-style running as you go. I used to be a pretty serious 50+ mile a week runner, and I would recommend last season's Saucony Kinvara or something in that direction to start. If you don't mind ridiculous colors, you can get them for 40 bucks. If you're transitioning from traditional running, or wear dress shoes generally, it will be a rough enough start. I wouldn't start up with anything less minimalistic.
If you do go more minimalist later, I've had great luck with NB100 (they have several diferent versions), again quite cheap online. But the last thing you want to do is cut your running career short before it starts. I'd take a close look at what your foot is used to now (do you wear hard-soled shoes mostly?) and just go a step or two below that to start.
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Recommended reading for minimal/barefoot running - Born To Run by Christopher McDougall
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I'll need to replace my sneakers sometime this year, so I'm posting here as a reference for myself.
(But MJ, why don't you just save the page as a bookmark and come back to it then? Well, if I could be that disciplined with bookmarks, I would be a very fancy person who didn't have hundreds of bookmarks scattered across my laptop and phone, and life would be glorious.)