Author Topic: Run air conditioner with open windows if Outside is Colder than Inside?  (Read 2589 times)

Radagast

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OK Thermodynamics people I have a question I can't figure out because I suck at thermodynamics.

I like to cool my house passively with open windows as much as possible. But in the summer that becomes difficult. If the high is 100 and the low is 65 for more than a day, I might be able to keep the range 75-90 which is too hot. I can never get the low temperature of the house within about 10 degrees of the daily low temperature.

Or I can close all the windows and use the AC for all my cooling needs.

But! Suppose I leave the windows open, and set my thermostat to kick on around 3AM, when the outside temperature is 65, but I set the AC to 68. Then I could keep the temperature range at about 68-82, which is tolerable. Is using AC to cool the house to 68 a waste of energy, if the windows are open and the outside temp is 65? By waste of energy, I mean, worse than just using AC for all cooling whatsoever?

I can see both ways: waste of energy, because AC is a concentrated source of cool. And, not waste of energy, because the target house temperature is warmer than the ambient temperature.

Malossi792

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Sounds good if the AC blows somewhere far from the closest open window, so the cold air doesn't escape in an instant. Then you have 68 degree or warmer going out, 65 coming in. Sounds good to me.

bryan995

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Usually an ac is a closed loop no? It just recycles air in the home. I think a passive exchange via temperature alone will be slow / inefficient.

Might want to look into a whole house fan instead.
https://quietcoolsystems.com/

We have two medium sized stealth pro X fans. Cost was something like $2100 installed.
Uses 500wh (2xfan) compared to 7000wh (2xAC), so the energy savings can add up. We use the ac much less now.

Does an incredible job at exchanging the air in the home, which is perfect if you live somewhere with hot days but cool nights. We turn it on, crack a few windows and get a glorious <62’F breeze all night long in the fall, spring, summer.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 04:09:59 AM by bryan995 »

ixtap

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What you actually want to do is run the fan. Can that be scheduled to come on at a certain hour?

chemistk

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The other thing you're failing to factor in is the humidity - your A/C is an excellent dehumidifier but if you're running it with multiple windows open, you're defeating the purpose of the system because you're constantly re-introducing moisture back into the air. Of course, ignore all this if you live in an arid climate.

Your house is a heat sink, so long after the sun goes down, it's still holding heat from earlier in the day. You need more time than a few overnight hours to get all that heat to equilibrate with the outside temperature, or you can only effectively do so if the temperature drops substantially at night - in the 50's most likely.

You'd be better served to use the A/C to cool the house from dusk to midnight, while the ambient temperature is dropping outside. Little new heat is being added to your home's thermal mass after the sun goes down, and the A/C will help you to shed that excess energy faster, plus you'd be getting rid of plenty of excess moisture in the air. If you were to shut the windows and set the temp to within a couple degrees of the nightly low, you'd find that your goals are better achieved. Once you go to bed, you can turn off the A/C but keep the fan 'on', open the windows, and wake up with the house roughly where you expect, with a bit extra humidity.

A more energy efficient way to approach this would be indeed to install a whole house fan - that would enable you to take advantage of the natural temperature gradient between the attic and your basement/crawlspace.

A wat to mimic the whole house fan would be to (assuming you have some standard size double-hung windows in more than one part of the house) put a box fan facing out in at least two windows in the highest part of your house, shut the rest of the windows on all but the lowest level of the house, and turn them to the highest setting. You will quickly feel a draft as cold air from ground level is pulled in and hot air near the ceiling is exhausted out.

The problem with your passive approach is that there just isn't enough time at night where the temperature is at its lowest for your house to slough off its heat energy without mechanical intervention.

yachi

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The humidity of that outside air maters because it takes more energy to cool humid air than to cool dry air (you're cooling all that water, and it more mass than the rest of the air).  So some of the work your air conditioner puts out is being used to remove moisture from the air in your house.  Do that all day, and the air inside your house will be comfortably dry.  If you replace that air with humid outside air, is the temperature difference worth the extra humidity?  It's a complicated analysis, that's very dependent on prevailing outside humidity levels.  If you live in a very low-humidity climate (very rarely experience dew at your 3 am 68 degree day) it's probably not something to worry about.

Although your daytime temperatures might reach 100, it's really the solar gain that's causing your house to heat up.  It's quite a feat that you're limiting your inside temperature to 90 in that type of a day.  Do you have an attic space that you can mechanically ventilate nightly or based on a temperature difference?  It's non uncommon for an attic space to reach 120 with outside temperatures of 100.  A whole house fan helps exhaust this hot air, as well as quickly pull cooler outside air into your living space.

Radagast

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Usually an ac is a closed loop no? It just recycles air in the home. I think a passive exchange via temperature alone will be slow / inefficient.
Can you explain this part? Why would it be more inefficient?
Quote
Might want to look into a whole house fan instead.
https://quietcoolsystems.com/

We have two medium sized stealth pro X fans. Cost was something like $2100 installed.
Uses 500wh (2xfan) compared to 7000wh (2xAC), so the energy savings can add up. We use the ac much less now.

Does an incredible job at exchanging the air in the home, which is perfect if you live somewhere with hot days but cool nights. We turn it on, crack a few windows and get a glorious <62’F breeze all night long in the fall, spring, summer.
That is a good idea which I was aware of but never in an I-can-do-it way. Recently it has been too smoky to open windows for half the hot season, would a whole house fan still work?

Radagast

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What you actually want to do is run the fan. Can that be scheduled to come on at a certain hour?
What I was describing actually the results when running two box fans plus up to five house (ie bathroom-type) fans. I haven't been using the blower because, well it hasn't seemed very effective at pushing around neutral temperature air I think because the quantity is low and it is generally directionless.

Radagast

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The other thing you're failing to factor in is the humidity - your A/C is an excellent dehumidifier but if you're running it with multiple windows open, you're defeating the purpose of the system because you're constantly re-introducing moisture back into the air. Of course, ignore all this if you live in an arid climate.
Humidity in hot season runs typically 10% in the day to 30% at night but either can be higher or lower than those. I mostly forget it exists unless it gets to about 50% and I start feeling damp.
Quote
Your house is a heat sink, so long after the sun goes down, it's still holding heat from earlier in the day. You need more time than a few overnight hours to get all that heat to equilibrate with the outside temperature, or you can only effectively do so if the temperature drops substantially at night - in the 50's most likely.
Quote
The problem with your passive approach is that there just isn't enough time at night where the temperature is at its lowest for your house to slough off its heat energy without mechanical intervention.
To elaborate,
The humidity of that outside air maters because it takes more energy to cool humid air than to cool dry air (you're cooling all that water, and it more mass than the rest of the air).  So some of the work your air conditioner puts out is being used to remove moisture from the air in your house.  Do that all day, and the air inside your house will be comfortably dry.  If you replace that air with humid outside air, is the temperature difference worth the extra humidity?  It's a complicated analysis, that's very dependent on prevailing outside humidity levels.  If you live in a very low-humidity climate (very rarely experience dew at your 3 am 68 degree day) it's probably not something to worry about.

Although your daytime temperatures might reach 100, it's really the solar gain that's causing your house to heat up.  It's quite a feat that you're limiting your inside temperature to 90 in that type of a day.  Do you have an attic space that you can mechanically ventilate nightly or based on a temperature difference?  It's non uncommon for an attic space to reach 120 with outside temperatures of 100.  A whole house fan helps exhaust this hot air, as well as quickly pull cooler outside air into your living space.
the approach isn't that passive, I already employ two box fans plus some small built-in fans. I agree that the problem is I am not bouncing enough kilograms of air off my walls, but the problem could also be that the air molecules are too warm.

Quote
You'd be better served to use the A/C to cool the house from dusk to midnight, while the ambient temperature is dropping outside. Little new heat is being added to your home's thermal mass after the sun goes down, and the A/C will help you to shed that excess energy faster, plus you'd be getting rid of plenty of excess moisture in the air. If you were to shut the windows and set the temp to within a couple degrees of the nightly low, you'd find that your goals are better achieved. Once you go to bed, you can turn off the A/C but keep the fan 'on', open the windows, and wake up with the house roughly where you expect, with a bit extra humidity.
So you are saying the best way is to cool the house down at sunset, then open the windows letting cool air escape, knowing the temperature will recover naturally after that? Which is more efficient than opening the windows, and letting the A/C come on a little before dawn? I like that it gets cool earlier that way, but I would want to open all the windows by around 10:00 when the night air can still be around 80F because I won't wake up later to open them.

Quote
A more energy efficient way to approach this would be indeed to install a whole house fan - that would enable you to take advantage of the natural temperature gradient between the attic and your basement/crawlspace.

A wat to mimic the whole house fan would be to (assuming you have some standard size double-hung windows in more than one part of the house) put a box fan facing out in at least two windows in the highest part of your house, shut the rest of the windows on all but the lowest level of the house, and turn them to the highest setting. You will quickly feel a draft as cold air from ground level is pulled in and hot air near the ceiling is exhausted out.
Basically I do exactly that already: Box fan blows out the warmest second floor corner (only a single window opens on that corner anyhow), windows on the cool side of the house (all the others) open. A second box fan blows at the bed if it is hot. I turn on bathroom and utility room fans to get air into those nooks.

But the whole house fan / thermal mass is interesting because it does very much seem like heat is strongly radiating from the ceiling. We have a tile roof with prominent southwest exposure, and I bet it kilns the attic. Also a garage with often two ICE radiating heat and also facing SW. Perhaps I need to investigate whole garage and attic fans.

Radagast

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The humidity of that outside air maters because it takes more energy to cool humid air than to cool dry air (you're cooling all that water, and it more mass than the rest of the air).  So some of the work your air conditioner puts out is being used to remove moisture from the air in your house.  Do that all day, and the air inside your house will be comfortably dry.  If you replace that air with humid outside air, is the temperature difference worth the extra humidity?  It's a complicated analysis, that's very dependent on prevailing outside humidity levels.  If you live in a very low-humidity climate (very rarely experience dew at your 3 am 68 degree day) it's probably not something to worry about.

Although your daytime temperatures might reach 100, it's really the solar gain that's causing your house to heat up.  It's quite a feat that you're limiting your inside temperature to 90 in that type of a day.  Do you have an attic space that you can mechanically ventilate nightly or based on a temperature difference?  It's non uncommon for an attic space to reach 120 with outside temperatures of 100.  A whole house fan helps exhaust this hot air, as well as quickly pull cooler outside air into your living space.
LOL. Dew? Is that what happens after it rains? Kinda like melted frost? I think i saw that in Ireland once. We very rarely experience that on 33 degree days.

The whole house or attic fan is worth a look.

Radagast

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Ok, lets say I want to cool my garage. I can get one of these fans, which looks effective and an easy DIY install, any disagreements?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/QuietCool-20-25-in-x-14-in-1452-CFM-Green-Galvanized-Steel-Speed-Control-Whole-House-Fan-GA-ES-1500/206047382
Then I need more vented area into my garage so add one of these:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Unique-Home-Designs-36-in-x-80-in-Arcada-Black-Surface-Mount-Outswing-Steel-Security-Door-with-Expanded-Metal-Screen-IDR06400362060/203484968#overlay

And then something like this? https://www.homedepot.com/p/QuietCool-1945-CFM-Smart-App-Controlled-2-Speed-Gable-Mount-Attic-Fan-AFG-SMT-PRO-2-0/312960272 in the attic? I have to look at my attic vent situation. Also not sure about the attic power situation. As per above, I think I will stick with box fans, and let the areas receiving outside air fans be separate completely from the house so we can keep out smoke.

So that would be maybe $1,000 if I can do it all myself, which could possibly save $200 per year and cut the strong radiating heat situation so might be worth it. Does that seem correct?

Still, right now, wondering about the AC at night.


Radagast

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Sounds good if the AC blows somewhere far from the closest open window, so the cold air doesn't escape in an instant. Then you have 68 degree or warmer going out, 65 coming in. Sounds good to me.
That is what I am thinking, but who knows I may be crazy.

lutorm

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Humidity in hot season runs typically 10% in the day to 30% at night but either can be higher or lower than those. I mostly forget it exists unless it gets to about 50% and I start feeling damp.
Lol. I'm amazed at how dry I feel on some sunny, dry day when the humidity might drop to 60%...

Humans are very adaptable, and moving air is much more comfortable than still air, especially at those low humidities. Maybe investigate how high you can make the temperature and still be comfortable if you get good airflow (and drink lots of water.) Sleeping is hard if it's too warm, though, so my suggestion would be to only keep your sleeping space conditioned.

Cranky

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Window fans are pretty cheap.

Radagast

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Window fans are pretty cheap.
Covered.

The window fans are not sufficient, because the inside still gets to approx ambient max -10F, which can be up to 95 . And that would put overnight low at 80-85. Too hot!

Possible solutions:
-Run AC in afternoon to keep house around 80, then open windows at night. Drawback: the attic radiates considerable heat all night so it will never get colder than maybe 78 in the morning. Too hot!
-Run AC in morning after windows are closed again. Drawback: the house will only be pleasant in the morning, mostly after we all left for work.
-Wake up in middle of night to close all windows so that AC can chill house while we sleep. Drawback: I am not waking up at 3am to close every window in the house.

Proposed solution: Run AC at 3am while windows are wide open (and potentially fans are still on) to cool house to just above ambient temperature while we are in the part of the sleep cycle where cold temps are most beneficial. Drawback: There aren't any?

Suggestions from forum:
-A whole house fan could prevent all that attic radiation. Drawback: it is too smoky to use a whole house fan (or window fans) half the hot season recently, and I don't want to spend a huge amount of money on something I use only 6 weeks per year.
-Attic or garage fan. Drawback: none really, just need to git'er done.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 05:54:21 PM by Radagast »

Radagast

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Humidity in hot season runs typically 10% in the day to 30% at night but either can be higher or lower than those. I mostly forget it exists unless it gets to about 50% and I start feeling damp.
Lol. I'm amazed at how dry I feel on some sunny, dry day when the humidity might drop to 60%...

Humans are very adaptable, and moving air is much more comfortable than still air, especially at those low humidities. Maybe investigate how high you can make the temperature and still be comfortable if you get good airflow (and drink lots of water.) Sleeping is hard if it's too warm, though, so my suggestion would be to only keep your sleeping space conditioned.
yeah a small swamp cooler might be the solution.

expatartist

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Whether in hot humid climates or dry ones, I swear by those old, super powerful ceiling fans. Currently running one now (vintage 60s) and it makes all the difference to the feel of a room. Powerful stand-up fans are a modular solution but a proper ceiling fan is fantastic.

AccidentialMustache

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Swamp cooler adds humidity, which at those low of values may be desirable, but may also make the air feel warmer (because you evaporate sweat slower).

You may want to consider if the proper solution is actually better air sealing and after that, insulation. Bonus: they're fully passive, no power consumption over time.

Note: if you air seal, you should be testing for radon. Less air changes per hour = higher radon concentrations. Radon mitigation is possible and (usually) inexpensive, compared to most house things (eg, roof, HVAC, windows, siding, etc).

Radagast

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Whether in hot humid climates or dry ones, I swear by those old, super powerful ceiling fans. Currently running one now (vintage 60s) and it makes all the difference to the feel of a room. Powerful stand-up fans are a modular solution but a proper ceiling fan is fantastic.
Like many new houses it seems ours was not designed for energy efficiency so it doesn't have those. We do have a two-story living room with a blockout where one could easily go though. I think it would be awesome if we had a huge fan with a 12-foot span, something like:https://bigassfans.com/essence/ just revolving right in the middle.

Radagast

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Swamp cooler adds humidity, which at those low of values may be desirable, but may also make the air feel warmer (because you evaporate sweat slower).

You may want to consider if the proper solution is actually better air sealing and after that, insulation. Bonus: they're fully passive, no power consumption over time.

Note: if you air seal, you should be testing for radon. Less air changes per hour = higher radon concentrations. Radon mitigation is possible and (usually) inexpensive, compared to most house things (eg, roof, HVAC, windows, siding, etc).
It's a new house (2017), and while the architectural design is dubious, it seems to have good quality construction including good air sealing. I agree that insulation would be beneficial, though I don't think it would be sufficient to solve the problem. I don't know when I will have time for that though.

Radagast

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Investigated the attic. There are 6 electrical outlets, 4 are available, plus a LED light and switch. Pretty fancy! Ventilation was better than expected because there is a continuous ridge vent which is not noticeable from outside. Unfortunately, it is fancy because there is a furnace up there. I knew that but never looked. The house has 3! furnaces, one in the crawl space, one in the garage, one in the attic. The furnace and massive insulated ducts plus intricate trusses make it very difficult to access the attic outside that small furnace maintenance platform. So any attic improvements are probably out.

Also, looked at the utility bill. The cost to "blast" (by my standards) the AC last year was ~$200 total. That includes running fans, more work for the fridge and freezer in the warm weather, the use by the tenants who I have no control over and whose part of the house catches strong sun, the 4-6 weeks I sealed the house and relied on AC alone because of smoke. It's really looking like only $100-$150 annually in savings are possible, not enough to justify a large expenditure.

So we are looking at a security door for the garage to let hot air out https://www.homedepot.com/p/Unique-Home-Designs-36-in-x-80-in-Su-Casa-White-Surface-Mount-Outswing-Steel-Security-Door-with-Expanded-Metal-Screen-5SH202WHITE36/202098333
2x garage door insulating kits to reduce heat absorbed by the southwestern facing door, and help with winter as well https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-Garage-Door-Fiberglass-Insulation-Kit-22-in-x-54-in-8-Panels-GD01/202257272
(^the above will also help maintain the batteries of any future EV or PHEV for both hot and cold)
A swamp cooler to see how we like those https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hessaire-2-100-CFM-3-Speed-Portable-Evaporative-Cooler-Swamp-Cooler-for-700-sq-ft-MC26A/307393487
And maybe some fertilizer and an extra drip outlet for the deciduous tree which shades the in-law suite and would be better if it had an extra 10ft diameter and 10ft height.

Beyond that changes in our behavior, like camping in the yard, on the balcony, or in the living room which is the easiest part of the house to keep cool (NE corner bottom floor). We have agreed to try that this month.

Radagast

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Update. What I actually did so far:
Bought (1) 10" box fan and (1) 20" box fan to supplement existing 20" fan. I used to have two box fans but I haven't seen the other in a couple years and no idea why. The new 20" Lasko fan is quieter than the older Lasko, which is good. I also bought and installed a garage door insulation kit which has been marginally useful, but it is 75% for the winter so whatever.

Behaviour change: been more diligent to use box fans. A year or two ago I observed my neighbors leaving their garage doors open a few inches on the bottom in the summer, and deduced that it was to cool it off. Have been doing that instead of an expensive garage attic fan. Will likely start to camp outside on the deck next weekend.

Continued struggle: it is really hard to make a combination passive/AC cooling solution work. I want to and can use air only for 80% of cooling, but it is really hard to work in that 20% air conditioning. It seems both too cold inside, and like I am wasting a lot of energy, if I have it come on with the fans running in the early morning. Even if it is set to several or even 10 degrees warmer than the outside air. The attic still seems the main problem, I temperature gunned my ceiling today and it was 94, while the house air temperature was 84. I am still thinking about a swamp cooler, I bet all the dense cool air could really bust some thermal inertia.

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Your original question is an interesting one. Heat is always trying to move in a direction that equalizes temperature. If the inside of your house is warmer than the outside, heat will naturally leak out. If the inside of your house is cooler than the outside, heat will naturally leak in. Opening windows or doors will accelerate this process. Meanwhile your air conditioner is actively pumping heat out. All my life I've been told that it's bad to open the windows/doors when the air conditioner is on, but I think that advice assumes that it's actually warmer outside than inside, such that opening the windows amplifies the natural heat transfer in, which works against what the AC is trying to do.

But if it's colder outside, that means the natural heat transfer is going outward, and opening the windows just helps the natural heat transfer go faster, so then maybe opening the windows while running the AC would result in faster cooling than doing either thing alone. Something feels very wrong about doing this, but the more I think about it the more it seems like a valid tactic if just opening the windows isn't good enough on its own.

The attic is a wild card. The sun beats down on the roof throughout the day, this energy is absorbed by the roof as heat into the attic, and so the attic gets really hot. The thermal mass of the attic is radiating heat in all directions throughout the night as a result. Seems like a fan in the attic to exchange the attic air with outside air would help minimize the differential in temperature between the attic and the outside. Insulation between the attic and the rest of your house would also help, as would putting light-colored material on the roof to absorb less of the sun's energy in the first place. But as you point out you're only spending some $200/year on the air conditioning, so there's only so much capital expense that makes sense here from a financial perspective. You'll improve comfort with improvements to the attic, but saving money is dubious.

Remember also curtains/blinds. These should be closed during the day as much as possible to minimize heat transfer into the house through the windows. We live in a milder climate than you, but our general playbook during summer in a house with no air conditioning (except in one bedroom) is this:
1) Open windows in the evening as outdoor temperature falls below indoor temperature, close windows in morning as outdoor temperature rises to match indoor temperature.
2) Run fans when the windows are open, to speed air exchange and thereby accelerate heat transfer.
3) Close curtains/blinds when the sun is up, especially on the direction of the house that is getting the most sun.
4) Minimize cooking on especially hot days.

Combine all this with air conditioning usage during the hottest part of the day and you should be on the right track.