Divorce Disaster, Anyone?

[N.]

@tortoro

Ouch.


I'd like to assume you've read the entire thread, but some of your commentary indicates this is not the case.

You are correct in that I chose to marry a man with children. This is not a highly unusual circumstance these days, as you rightfully point out. My initial post wasn't a, "whoa is me" thrash; it was an attempt to ask for eyes from a supportive community on a problem I'm trying to solve. A *financial* problem. I indicated our issues, openly communicated my own blind spots, and have been very grateful for the constructive feedback received thus far.

*Note: later in the thread, I did recognize my own anger whilst writing my initial post. I apologized and reiterated my appreciation for the support I had been receiving.

As this thread developed, the conversation naturally evolved to the subject of children; specifically, whether or not to pursue trying for one despite the current circumstances. My "just happened" comment pertained to my inability to have children myself - based on two health issues and the prohibitive cost to reproductive assistance. This is a circumstance neither my husband nor myself could foresee when we opted to join our lives together. Ergo, not a choice. You've blanketed the term, however, to my situation as the whole which is wholly inaccurate. Further, I wasn't asking for a prize. Suggesting so a bit aggressive and unnecessary.

By the way, there wasn't a family home or RRSPs. There were no assets to split upon the dissolution of their marriage. This money came from after-tax income earned during the subsequent ten years after their divorce. This is particularly significant given she never had full custody of the kids; she had joint custody, caring for the kids (at any time) for no time more than 50% of the time. This is not par for the course in a lot of circumstances.

Again, I don't believe you've read the entire thread, and certainly not thoroughly, otherwise you would understand that our choice for me to "stay home" is our best option for two reasons. One, given my work experience, education, and track record for profitable entrepreneurship, coupled with my lack of experience in the corporate realm, leads us to believe that I have a far better opportunity to create lasting income "staying home" (i.e. busting my ass to get money in the door the best way I know how). Two, my husband travels 50% of the time (at a minimum, and that figure is increasing) and without a parental figure in the home, daughter would be required to live full-time with her mother. This is not something she would prefer. While children over the age of 14 do have a legal right to choose their dwelling, it is also assumed they are choosing between parents (not a non-legal guardian step-parent and parent). Ex is legally within her rights to enforce the issue, against her daughter's wishes, and ask us to pony up for the cost of her mortgage and lifestyle.

You are correct, however, when you point out that we could pursue child support from the mother. As I also indicated earlier, ex has demonstrated a propensity for hiding money by working for her best friend as a contractor, all in the name of collecting the maximum CCTB possible and claiming "low-income" status whilst living in a $500,000 home and driving a $50,000 vehicle. True; we *could* fight, but for all the anguish and cost (money that we feel is better spent elsewhere), as well as the kids being old enough to understand the often sorrowful outcomes of mommy and daddy playing games in court, we have opted to let sleeping dogs lie. We can certainly care for the kids on our own, so while chasing for money is certainly our "choice", yes, we choose to put the emotional well-being of the kids first.

Thank you for outlining my options in regards to having a child. There's no need to outline the details again surrounding the likely impossibility (unless hubs and I are willing to put ourselves in possible financial peril) for the sake of my response, but I do appreciate you outlining my options.

@totoro, I'm going to thank you for your post. There are certainly times when I feel alone and isolated and probably feel sorry for myself for longer than I should. For this, I certainly deserve (and begrudgingly welcome) a kick in the ass. May I ask though, if you are going to take that route, that you read the length of the thread and kick a little more gently?

[Self-employed-swami]

I would just like to point out, that there is a program for EI special benefits for the self-employed.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/ei/sew/index.shtml

You have to sign up at least a year before you can claim, and you have to have sufficient self-employment income, and pay both the employer and employee premiums.

And, if you plan on continuing to be self-employed for the rest of your working career, you have to continue to pay the premiums.

[totoro]

Yes, it was a little harsh and things sometimes come across a bit more so in writing.  I don't know all your circumstances, only those you put in your post.

Not trying to trash you and I did not realize you could not have children for any reasons other than not enough money to support them.  I did read the posts but must have missed the one where you spelled this out.  I can see that this is a far different scenario. 

However, if the cost of IVF (or other reproductive tech) is the only thing holding you back, what are these costs?  In Ontario much is covered: http://www.ivfcanada.com/services/fees/general_fee_schedule.cfm  You could reduce some expenses, work for a year or less, and save enough for this kind of treatment - if it is something you want to do.  Don't give up if this is what you really want.  IMO life is too short to not give these things a shot, even if they do not work in the end, if it is worth it to you and your husband.

If you are looking to solve some financial problems, you can keep in mind that MMM and his wife worked for seven years (I think that is right?) prior to retiring.  If you want to get there, you can and you have plenty of time, you just need a plan.  The fact that you have a 15 and 18 year old means that some of your expenses should go down within a few years as they become self-supporting.  You are also starting a business that might bring in some more funds.

I don't understand the past payments here; however, because of lack of context - which is fine.  I would say though that if he was paying her $25 000 a year in child and spousal support while they had joint custody for a period of ten years after their divorce his income would have had to have been extremely high and hers extremely low to be required by law. Each party would have an obligation to pay support to the other and become self-supporting.  This doesn't matter now though, water under the bridge.

You are incorrect in imo your statement "Ex is legally within her rights to enforce the issue, against her daughter's wishes, and ask us to pony up for the cost of her mortgage and lifestyle."  His ex is only legally entitled to child support per the guidelines if she is the full-time caregiver.  This is approximately $650 a month for the daughter if your husband makes $70,000 a year.  Out of these funds, his ex would be required to pay for food, shelter, allowance, clothing and necessities of life which you now pay for.   

I can understand not wanting to put the daughter in a position where she expresses her wishes, but courts tend to go with "status quo" ie. if she has been staying with you and doing well this will count for far more than you working.  The ex's erratic financial circs and power cut-offs and the daughters worries would be a huge issue to her claim imo. 

And yes, I'm a Canadian lawyer but, no, don't rely on my opinion in a blog, check it out for yourself further by bringing my response to another lawyer in your area as I can't possibly know all the circumstances of your situation - only those you have listed.

You are also incorrect imo that that if you work during the day and your husband travels 50% of the time your daughter would be required to live full-time with her mother.  The question will be "what is in the best interests of the daughter".  If she expresses a preference to stay with her dad, and you have been the primary for a period of time, the fact that you are working will not be determinative of the issue.   She is 15 and presumably attends school.  Children of this age can be left alone after school for a couple hours.  Many many Canadian families have two working parents.  Avoiding a battle about the issue might be worth it for a whole lot of other reasons, as I mentioned in my previous post.

The choice to stay at home is one that you have discussed and decided on with your husband.  That is something that seems reasonable if it is what you both want.  If you have a business plan that could work well in the circumstances that seems like a good idea.

As far as reducing expenses, see if your family is open to consignment/thrift shops.  You can get extremely high quality items for a fraction of retail.  I buy my suits via consignment and pay no more that $80 each for brand name. 

Finally, have you talked with your husband about whether he could work at something locally and receive a similar wage?  His wage might not be high enough to warrant the dry-cleaning costs and loss of having him in the home 50% or more of the time if there is something close by that would pay a similar amount.  If he was home regularly you could work more and he could spend more time with the daughter too. 

[totoro]

Okay, I found your post, sorry for missing that part.  I see it is $34 000 for 50:50.  You guys have discussed this.  It sounds like it might not be worth it for you both given your financial circumstances.   

I suppose that you could rethink you working now to save to pay for this given that your understanding of the law around child support might not be accurate.  Also, I did not realize that as a self-employed person you could be eligible for EI/Maternity - might be worth researching.

Maybe you just need a place to vent about things.  Which is fine and I wish you well.  But if you really really want to have a child, I have pointed out a way that could work.  There are probably others.

[N.]

Thank you for circling back around. I appreciate keeping the dialogue going, especially when there are tense feelings over contentious subjects. The facts aside, perhaps I needed a kick in the ass and will think seriously about the overall intention of your previous post.

There is an aspect of your posts, however, (and most of those here in this thread) that I find refreshing; I'm a 'realist' (er, I think most people refer to that as being a pessimist) and I tend to plan for the worst while hoping for the best. There are times that this approach does not serve me, and it is helpful to hear from those who are optimistic and compassionate encouraging me when I am feeling down. So thank you (and others here reading) for that.

I was categorized as a non-funded IVF patient. "If you do not have bilaterally blocked fallopian tubes, none of your costs are covered under OHIP; therefore, you are required to pay all costs out-of-pocket."  :(  Given the (other) health issues I mentioned, mathematically our chances were very slim.

As an aside, my sister was also in the position of having to rely on IVF. She and her husband are still childless after three very difficult, painful, and heart-breaking rounds. She also suffered medical complications as a result of the fertility drugs, and ended up being forced into a full hysterectomy as a result of the IVF failure. Because of this, I tend to allow this situation to colour my desire to push forward, however much we wish for a biological child. Sometimes I feel as though I'm in a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't position, even if that doesn't/wouldn't end up being my ultimate reality.

You're right about the payments. I didn't correct your assumption at the time but his income was far in excess of $70,000 hence the rather large payments. But no matter; what's done is done and what's paid is paid. Our focus now is on being present and focused (despite his travel) and raising healthy, well-balanced kids. At the risk of making biological (and adoptive - hi Dee18!) parents cringe, I'm involved as I am because the kids have put me in a position to do so. (Mom prefers being the 'friend' parent when what they were asking for was a 'parent'-parent). I am their first contact at school, the first call made when they're sick or there's a school issue, the one who schedules and runs them back and forth to haircuts, dental, medical and eye appointments, signs their homework, and the one who they confide in when they're having friend/boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever issues. Who would turn their back on that? Heart-breaking? Yes. Lucky? No question. I've embraced it as the privilege it is.

Agreed about the legalities (aside from a previous separation agreement outlining the exorbitant payment schedule). There are line items in that agreement that make this more complicated than this forum warrants, but going to court is a fear that we're proactively trying to manage. Even at 15 and her living choice having been made clear, their relationship (in our eyes and those of a counselor) is not in the least bit healthy. Mom guilt-trips and manipulates and daughter (while understanding the dynamic at play) is still not yet old enough to push back the way she would prefer. Again, with them being late teenagers, the costs of litigation are so much more heavy than mere finances. Sometimes it's easier to just support the best way you can and pray for the passing (but not too much!) of time.

Finally, I think your very last post is correct. Perhaps I inadvertently wished for a rant session. I got that, much more, and have been left feeling challenged and supported. I'm feeling pretty damned grateful for that.



Footnote: I offer my apologies to others reading this post. My original intent was to focus on my financial landscape, and I'm aware that the 'to-have-or-not-to-have' discussion has all but taken over. I offer that it was a natural evolution, and hope I still have the patience of those who wished for this to remain a purely financial forum.

[bogart]

Hi, Nathalie,

I've mostly opted to stay out of this post but since, as you note, it's become a "to have or not to have" (or really, from my perspective as someone who's BTDT, "to try or not to try") I guess I'll chime in on that aspect.

The divorce was friendlier, the kids older, and the financial impact less, but I've walked in shoes similar to yours.  My husband had had a vasectomy during his prior marriage, so I jumped into infertility somewhat knowingly, in spite of wanting kids.  I say somewhat because I still didn't really understand what I was getting myself into -- I don't think one can until one is in the thick of things.  I made choices different from those you have made (to date); despite (also) being a poor candidate for treatment, I did numerous IVF cycles and we also embarked toward domestic adoption, though we put that on hold and subsequently stopped pursuing it when I got pregnant after IVF #4.  I've got 2 (grown) stepkids, 1 son, and tried IVF again 3 times after he was born but didn't succeed in getting pregnant, at which point I decided to stop trying (it was very much me, and not my DH, who was the force behind wanting more children).  That was my life from the age of 32 (vasectomy reversal; it did not work) through, oh gee whiz -- 40?  41?  The post-son cycles were much less emotionally intense for me; DS was born when I was 38, so really probably just 5 or 6 years of my life consumed.

I don't know what you should do.  I think I understand what you mean about stepkids and adoption, not that I think the two things are inherently or exactly "the same," but that you personally don't feel that becoming a mom through adoption would add to your existing experiences of being a stepmom.  I have no problem with that; infertility isn't a condition that necessarily indicates someone will be a good adoptive parent or should become one, any more than fertility is an indicator that someone shouldn't adopt.  I personally had somewhat similar (though not identical) feelings, and similar reactions also to the thought of donor egg IVF, which was what was recommended to me as by far the medically best means for me personally to have a child (I'm a "high FSHer," which may mean something to you though it likely won't to most on this board -- not a good candidate for IVF with my own eggs) -- I felt like I was already raising kids who had a different genetic mother and preferred to hope I'd be able to have a child genetically related to me.  It's not something I would dream of trying to defend on principle or in the abstract, and I know many women who did pursue either or both of donor egg and adoption very gladly, but neither felt quite right to me for me and in the end (though I'd have chosen either over not getting to mother a child from infancy, I believe) I didn't get to a point where I needed to move past that (and of course moving "past" it to a point where I decided to not have any more children than my stepkids would have been an equally valid alternative, just as it is for you).   

In the end I can neither say that I made "the right choices" nor that I didn't (certainly waiting to start treatment, which I did, was in retrospect a mistake, but not one I was aware of at the time I made it).  I'm happy with how things turned out, but I know they didn't have to turn out the way they did (I got lucky).  I can tell you that the one question that worked for me consistently throughout the whole process to guide my decision-making was, "If I try this and it doesn't work, will I regret having tried it?"  But I'll also note that although I tried plenty of things that didn't work (5 fresh IVF cycles plus a number that got canceled, 3 FETs, acupuncture, dietary changes ...), none of them failed dramatically (my experience of "that didn't work" was limited to not getting pregnant rather than involving miscarriages or serious health complications), and that may shape my understanding of just how bad "doesn't work" is (or isn't). 

You may already be connected to such resources, but if you want to have this discussion in the context of a supportive community of infertiles who have a wide ranges of experiences and responses to the decisions they've faced, I can point you to relevant online resources.  Please PM me if you'd like me to send them.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister's experiences and loss.

[.22guy]

Go ahead and have a baby, if that's what you want.  If it's really what you want, then you will regret it if you don't.  After a certain age, it won't be an option any longer.

My (now ex) wife and I decided that there would never be a great time to have a baby, so we had two boys.  Despite all the ugliness and bitterness of the divorce and only seeing them 50% of the time,  I owe her for giving me two cute, smart, wonderful boys.

[N.]

@.22guy - Er, *sniff* thank you *sniff* no, good here, really *sniff, sniff*

@bogart - PM coming. Thanks.


Actually, that goes for everyone. Thank you - challenges, kicks-in-the-pants, virtual hugs, encouraging words, alternative viewpoints, words of wisdom. All of it. I'm grateful.

*eye pat* *sniff*

[N.]

@lhamo - Thank you. Well, with apologies, I'll refrain from being more specific about the business. I have a searchable online presence and significant press and media coverage. I'm afraid I'd negate the benefits of an anonymous forum (which I'm loving) if I divulged.

That last paragraph makes me sound like a complete and utter arse.

Erm. Yeah.

As for being home for a teen, you're correct; it does seem a bit silly. Being home is as much about my business as it is for allowing daughter to live here without custodial consequences. Hubs travels for four and five-day stretches, for (generally) three weeks of every four. While being in our home could be considered the "status quo" (and she is happy and well-adjusted), ex is still within her rights to contest the arrangement since for all intents and purposes, dad is never here to offer primary care and I'm not technically a legal guardian.

Anyway.

Working on the biz. I need to stop complaining. Like, seriously.

No complaining.

I just need to stop it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw