The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: EDSMedS on December 28, 2014, 02:58:51 PM
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Mustachians, advise please!
DW's brother, my Brother-in-Law (BIL), is a hardworking, ~35 yr old, employed, wealthy consumer working in international development. He laughs at Mustachianism b/c 1) he will work until the day he dies, 2) money = comfort, 3) being wealthy (which he is based on his ~$150K income and ~$120K expenses) means not thinking about money, and 4) what would he do if he didn't work?
The arguments I have used (below) have not convinced him that paying attention to expenses is powerful.
- Frugality means spending to your priorities, which requires that you know/develop your priorities, which leads to greater happiness, better relationships, and self-improvement
- Requirement for income = requirement for job = danger if a job is not available = taking a job you may not love
- Requirement for income = requirement for job = living according to someone else's priorities
- Post FIRE, you can do what you want, when you want
- Thinking about money AHEAD of the wave prevents worrying about money AFTER the wave
Who else has run into this situation? Any other strategies to try?
He spends most of his wealth on travel, restaurants, and high-end gadgetry, with sporadic purchases of books he doesn't read, entertainment, and gifts for friends and family. I must repeat: he does not want to think about money! It's not super imperative that he buys into FIRE or MMM b/c currently he has high income, high net worth, high earning potential, and high interest in work; however, I would like to plant a seed that may blossom to shade him from the scorching sun of debt, demoralizing work, and hyperconsumption. One example of why he may actually benefit from assistance: until I got him into some Vanguard ETFs, he had ALL his wealth sitting in a checking account! W...T...F?!
Thanks to all!
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Um... let him live his life how he wants? It's his job, his money, his life. Unless you're supporting his extravagant lifestyle, I'm not sure why you even care. He can obviously take care of himself. FIRE isn't for everyone.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great you have tried to educate him about frugality and mustachianism, but at this point I'd stop worrying about changing his mind. Maybe you've already planted the seed, and it just needs time to grow.
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I hate when people come here asking for help for OTHER people.
This guy is clearly getting what he wants from the monetary aspect of his life, let him be.
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Try not preaching frugality--he doesn't want to be frugal and he doesn't have to--but rather enlighten him on the pleasures of:
1) Taking advantage of opportunities for lowering his tax bill through IRA's etc.
2) Increasing his net worth through investing what he doesn't want to spend
It's possible that he just hasn't thought about those things & could use help focussing on them a little bit, and maybe one day he'll thank you for the nudge.
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Try not preaching frugality--he doesn't want to be frugal and he doesn't have to--but rather enlighten him on the pleasures of:
1) Taking advantage of opportunities for lowering his tax bill through IRA's etc.
2) Increasing his net worth through investing what he doesn't want to spend
It's possible that he just hasn't thought about those things & could use help focussing on them a little bit, and maybe one day he'll thank you for the nudge.
Thank you for the recommendations, specifically #1. He has already "earned" ~$4K from the investment recommendation he acted on 3 months ago. I certainly have not preached, but I answer questions when he asks them. Just like most folks first hearing about frugality, he laughs about the "hardship" it creates and the nonsense of "not working."
I hate when people come here asking for help for OTHER people.
This guy is clearly getting what he wants from the monetary aspect of his life, let him be.
Not super helpful. You could have just kept quiet or not been rude. Why would you not want to help spread the message that can provide happiness, health, and contentment?
I guess I failed to mention that he has been asking me questions about our chosen lifestyle.
Um... let him live his life how he wants? It's his job, his money, his life. Unless you're supporting his extravagant lifestyle, I'm not sure why you even care. He can obviously take care of himself. FIRE isn't for everyone.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great you have tried to educate him about frugality and mustachianism, but at this point I'd stop worrying about changing his mind. Maybe you've already planted the seed, and it just needs time to grow.
I'm trying to convince him b/c he is trying to convince me that I am wrong. I'm not going to be persuaded b/c I am happy. Maybe that's the same for him.
This forum was intended to be a type of debate work-up. I'd appreciate it if future posters try to assist vice argue. And if you think I should just not try to convince him, just say that instead of being rude.
Cheers!
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Ask him how he plans to exist if he is not capable of working until the day he dies.
My own brother had this "plan" until he found himself completely disabled after surgery didn't fix all his health problems. He now lives a very frugal life because he has no other choice.
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I would answer his questions simply if he asks them. If you want to retire early, tell him that and back off. Tell him about this website if he asks.
Not everyone wants to retire early. So long as he isn't awash in debt, he is doing fine.
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With your investing guidance he may start to get as excited about his net worth as he currently is about his pile of toys.
But if he doesn't want to save aggressively, you could also encourage him to think about disability insurance, long-term care insurance, all those boring safety nets.
And hey, in return for all this help, let him pick up the check at those fancy restaurants, and enjoy it!
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Seems like the both of you are trying to convince each other that your chosen lifestyles are wrong. The false dichotomy of your situation is that one way is superior to another. Which if you haven't learned by now, will just cause you to live a very stressful life. Just think of all the pain and suffering that has been caused by one group of people imposing their views on another group.
If he's asking you questions about your lifestyle then answer him as honestly as possible. Being judgmental and condescending of others choices will just make them defensive and prevent any constructive conversation from occurring.
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Trying to convince people to adopt Mustachianism is exactly like trying to get them to convert to another religion. Few people respond positively to forceful preaching from missionaries who have seen the light.
It's great you tried, but if your BIL doesn't want to change, the best way is to live by example.
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Trying to convince people to adopt Mustachianism is exactly like trying to get them to convert to another religion. Few people respond positively to forceful preaching from missionaries who have seen the light.
It's great you tried, but if your BIL doesn't want to change, the best way is to live by example.
Sometimes you have to let things sink in. I had a housemate once who made for the most amazing debater. We would go around in circles about all sorts of philosophical questions, and I would walk away feeling like I'd banged my head against a brick wall. Ten years later, much to my amazement, he thanked me for the discussions we'd had and said he'd learned a lot and that I'd helped him think about a lot of things.
Answer questions gently, and feel free to pose them here.
The biggest thing regarding "self-control" is to help people see that it's not always bad.
For example, you could point out that people who have self-control eating and self-control exercising often are the healthiest. They indulge in the things the enjoy most, but only in moderation which requires self-control, and reap, statistically, the benefits of good health and good looks. To some, this might look like "hardship"--having to limit what they eat, but to them, this looks like "healthy living" and they feel great. Then tell him, you understand that how you live looks like hardship, but that it gets your finances into super-duper shape, allows your money to be invested where it works even while you're sleeping, and that you feel really good about it.
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Respectfully, I agree with the others who suggest you back off. This isn't a cult (MMM's email sign-up joke notwithstanding) and it isn't for everyone. Answer his questions but otherwise live and let live.
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Sounds like he's doing just fine if he doesn't have consumer debt or unbacked debt. If only a reasonable mortgage for the value of his home he's socking $30k/yr into a checking account losing at least 3% per year to inflation. A simple shift in savings direction to tax advantaged accounts and/or low fee index funds and he'd be fine given he's content to work "forever". I don't think this person needs a total paradigm shift, just to optimize the savings since he already spends significantly less than he earns assuming that $150k is net. Once he starts down the investment path and watches it grow, he may eventually be interested in reducing spending as I'm sure there's a few tens of thousands worth of frivolous stuff that adds little marginal value after his core interests or values.
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Being deliberate re: money today allows me to not worry/think about money in the future.
I have not been as enlightened, smart, or clever as many folks here re: money. But my parents did instill many frugal habits, one of which is saving for the future.
So I've been 'paying myself first' for a long time, set up to automatically happen from paychecks. If your BIL is self-employed, he can do the same thing from his bank accounts - autotransfer to whatever investments make sense to him. I have done this for years without ever really thinking about money.
So if he likes strategy, or planning, or investing, or optimizing, or automating parts of his life he doesn't want to think about - these can all lead to the same end of making sure his future self doesn't have to 'think' about money (because he has plenty).
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It's not so much about being Mustachian but being realistic of the work environment. You don't have to live a super frugal lifestyle but you can certainly live well without spending your entire paycheck. I've seen a lot of people making well over $150k annually that can't find comparable jobs once their positions get axed. That's why those old sayings of save for a rainy day make so much sense. Yeah, by being careful with your money and saving a lot of it you are in control. Good luck to the BIL.
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Trying to convince people to adopt Mustachianism is exactly like trying to get them to convert to another religion. Few people respond positively to forceful preaching from missionaries who have seen the light.
It's great you tried, but if your BIL doesn't want to change, the best way is to live by example.
+1
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If he already has a high net worth, and loves his high paying job, why should he cut back? Doesn't seem like any reason for him to do so.
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If he already has a high net worth, and loves his high paying job, why should he cut back? Doesn't seem like any reason for him to do so.
He works in an industry that compensates well due to demanding a lot, including living in dangerous locales, moving at a moment's notice, and interacting with seedy folk. He has expressed exhaustion more than once and laments not being able to develop/sustain a relationship.
To answer the most common question in the suggestions: I care b/c he is family, I have perceived certain discomfort with his position, he keeps asking, and it is fun to debate!
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If he already has a high net worth, and loves his high paying job, why should he cut back? Doesn't seem like any reason for him to do so.
He works in an industry that compensates well due to demanding a lot, including living in dangerous locales, moving at a moment's notice, and interacting with seedy folk. He has expressed exhaustion more than once and laments not being able to develop/sustain a relationship.
To answer the most common question in the suggestions: I care b/c he is family, I have perceived certain discomfort with his position, he keeps asking, and it is fun to debate!
Out of curiosity, have you pointed out his spending x25 approx FIRE number to him?
Does he have a fair amount of net worth, or nothing? He might be the kind of person that wakes up one day to realize they can retire anytime they want, similar to BraveNewLife...
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Out of curiosity, have you pointed out his spending x25 approx FIRE number to him?
Does he have a fair amount of net worth, or nothing? He might be the kind of person that wakes up one day to realize they can retire anytime they want, similar to BraveNewLife...
I don't know his exact net worth, but I am confident it is less than mine though he has worked for 6 more years, has an M.S., makes about the same as DW and I (according to our current jobs, NOT our past jobs where we made 50% less!), and is single. Due to his high expenses, I would imagine he is around 1.5X expenses.
He has repeated that he wouldn't know what to do if he retired. His dad is currently wrestling this issue since retiring three years ago. That is one normal condition of wage-slavery that makes me particularly sad.
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I hate when people come here asking for help for OTHER people.
This guy is clearly getting what he wants from the monetary aspect of his life, let him be.
I hate when people come here not giving a crap about unquestioned CONSUMPTION which is harming ALL people.
Are people seriously not considering the effects of people's conspicuous consumption? Yeah, there is a problem with buying a ton of new gadgets - those minerals had to come from somewhere, and if you know anything about sourcing of these things, you know that the picture is pretty. This is completely ignoring the manufacturing side of things, which is generally not pretty, either. It also ignores the massive amount of energy that has to be consumed throughout the entire extraction/production/transportation/usage process.
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Do you have a solution to enforce one person's beliefs on someone else in a free society?
It's worked out well for Russia, after all..
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Out of curiosity, have you pointed out his spending x25 approx FIRE number to him?
Does he have a fair amount of net worth, or nothing? He might be the kind of person that wakes up one day to realize they can retire anytime they want, similar to BraveNewLife...
I don't know his exact net worth, but I am confident it is less than mine though he has worked for 6 more years, has an M.S., makes about the same as DW and I (according to our current jobs, NOT our past jobs where we made 50% less!), and is single. Due to his high expenses, I would imagine he is around 1.5X expenses.
He has repeated that he wouldn't know what to do if he retired. His dad is currently wrestling this issue since retiring three years ago. That is one normal condition of wage-slavery that makes me particularly sad.
You might want to give it from the perspective of FU money instead. It's not that he has to retire, it's more the ability to walk away if you want to. Financial Independence - work because you can, not because you must.
I hate when people come here asking for help for OTHER people.
This guy is clearly getting what he wants from the monetary aspect of his life, let him be.
I hate when people come here not giving a crap about unquestioned CONSUMPTION which is harming ALL people.
Are people seriously not considering the effects of people's conspicuous consumption? Yeah, there is a problem with buying a ton of new gadgets - those minerals had to come from somewhere, and if you know anything about sourcing of these things, you know that the picture is pretty. This is completely ignoring the manufacturing side of things, which is generally not pretty, either. It also ignores the massive amount of energy that has to be consumed throughout the entire extraction/production/transportation/usage process.
I would argue that this depth of perspective comes after seeing the possibility of FIRE. If you can't see saving and paying yourself for doing nothing later, can you really emotionally confront and come to peace with blood diamonds?
I would also argue that even if you don't like how much beef/bacon/ice cream someone eats, or how many new cell phones/cars/laptops/bricks of cocaine somebody buys, it's still not any of your business if they don't want it to be. That's called boundaries. Buying less cell phones shipped in bricks of cocaine is leading by example.
Do you have a solution to enforce one person's beliefs on someone else in a free society?
It's worked out well for Russia, after all..
China, too!
http://www.npr.org/tags/128191588/hong-kong
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You're confusing income with wealth.
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If he already has a high net worth, and loves his high paying job, why should he cut back? Doesn't seem like any reason for him to do so.
He works in an industry that compensates well due to demanding a lot, including living in dangerous locales, moving at a moment's notice, and interacting with seedy folk. He has expressed exhaustion more than once and laments not being able to develop/sustain a relationship.
This is your opening. He's not interested in retirement, so don't talk about it now. Instead, focus on the FI part. If he cut back wasteful spending, he could take a job that (perhaps) paid less but gave him a big increase in quality of life. He doesn't even need to be completely FI--just cut back, and save some.
Does he have an idea of what he'd like to do (for work) if he didn't need this demanding job? It sounds like he can't envision a future that would be anything better than the present. Maybe that's thw tack to take--what would he like his life to be, and how can he get there.
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He has repeated that he wouldn't know what to do if he retired. His dad is currently wrestling this issue since retiring three years ago. That is one normal condition of wage-slavery that makes me particularly sad.
He sounds to me as though he has become institutionalised by work - he is in the exact same mental position as a prisoner serving a life sentence, or someone in a long-stay mental hospital. His best hope is that his attitude has not been thoroughly internalised yet but is a side-effect of all his energy, time and initiative being soaked up by his work.
Finding a life partner might help him a bit. Otherwise I suspect he is a lost cause.
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You're confusing income with wealth.
Yes. That income does not equal wealth. Wealth is money in the bank and assets. He just has a high income.
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I would argue that this depth of perspective comes after seeing the possibility of FIRE. If you can't see saving and paying yourself for doing nothing later, can you really emotionally confront and come to peace with blood diamonds?
I would also argue that even if you don't like how much beef/bacon/ice cream someone eats, or how many new cell phones/cars/laptops/bricks of cocaine somebody buys, it's still not any of your business if they don't want it to be. That's called boundaries. Buying less cell phones shipped in bricks of cocaine is leading by example.
Kayla, thanks for the response. Looks like we're probably on board with each other here. However, I think I started to come around on the environmental side far before I did on the financial side.
I will say that I am very much a proponent of "judge not, lest ye be judged." And yes, you can only change so much (or nothing if someone doesn't want to let you in). However, I will say that we probably need to take a harder look at "rights" when it comes to the commons. Does someone have the right to buy a bunch of crap and dump it upstream of a major city? I know I'm not going to fix the world here - one person's consumption isn't the problem. However, we're generally talking about people who are questioning those who spend less for financial, enviro, and philosophical reasons. If someone comes at me with judgements along those lines, I will kindly (or at least try to do so kindly) retort with judgements regarding the sourcing of the blood diamonds you mention, or the effects of particulate emissions from the tailpipe. You don't even have to "believe" in climate change - cars still spew a bunch of stuff that isn't good for humans!
Look I'm nowhere near an industry leader on this front - I travel on airplanes far too much. I definitely need to work on that (and I'm much better on that front). My biggest problems are with those who are willfully ignorant or purposefully obtuse in the face of these realities.
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He spends most of his wealth on travel, restaurants, and high-end gadgetry, with sporadic purchases of books he doesn't read, entertainment, and gifts for friends and family. I must repeat: he does not want to think about money! It's not super imperative that he buys into FIRE or MMM b/c currently he has high income, high net worth, high earning potential, and high interest in work; however, I would like to plant a seed that may blossom to shade him from the scorching sun of debt, demoralizing work, and hyperconsumption. One example of why he may actually benefit from assistance: until I got him into some Vanguard ETFs, he had ALL his wealth sitting in a checking account! W...T...F?!
Why waste your time and energy trying to convince him? Just use your time and energy to help yourself more. That time you spend thinking of how to out argue him could be better spend on trying to lower your own expenses or increase the size of your stash or improving your own life. If he goes on the offensive ask him why he feels he must judge you and what exact he has a problem with, try to brush aside his attacks with as little effort by you as possible. This arguing is not benefiting you.
Actions and real world results are 1000x more convincing that words in an argument. In 10 years, if he is laid off with little savings and can't find a job and you are retired and rich, this will itself settle who was more wise with no arguing required.
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You're confusing income with wealth.
+1
You can buy him a copy of The Millionaire Next Door, if he reads that you will not have to argue with him anymore. His decision will be his.
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You're confusing income with wealth.
+1
You can buy him a copy of The Millionaire Next Door, if he reads that you will not have to argue with him anymore. His decision will be his.
I'm glad others jumped on this. It was bothering me as well that the BIL is described as rich when he likely is anything but.
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You're confusing income with wealth.
+1
You can buy him a copy of The Millionaire Next Door, if he reads that you will not have to argue with him anymore. His decision will be his.
Great suggestion. It was one of the most useful books I've read. It helped me to understand the interactions between my parents and my in-laws which are on opposite sides of the spending spectrum. He might also be able to see himself in relation to you and to realize that you're not acting weirdly, but that there are many of "you" living out there inconspicuously.
Also, if he's not married yet, he's spending quite a lot for a single person unless he's got a great house. Sounds like he may be spending to reduce stress. Could he afford to live on less if he was less stressed?
And one more.... He's a guy, so fine. But for me, I wish I'd saved much more aggressively before I was married so that I'd have a house now while being a stay at home mom. My biggest advice would be to save aggressively now (while enjoying a little travel) because if he gets married and has kids, his costs will be higher and he might regret not having saved more.
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You might want to give it from the perspective of FU money instead. It's not that he has to retire, it's more the ability to walk away if you want to. Financial Independence - work because you can, not because you must.
Bingo! Focus on the FI rather than the RE. I want to RE so I can focus on the things *I* want to do, whether it's learning to fly a plane, building furniture, restoring an old car, or continuing to work. It's the freedom you need to sell, not the idleness.
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I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!
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I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!
That is a very sad, selfish, and cynical view of the world that I fear is fairly common in these forums. This is not a zero-sum game and without drastically reduced consumption, no one will be happy.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/)
It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
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I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!
That is a very sad, selfish, and cynical view of the world that I fear is fairly common in these forums. This is not a zero-sum game and without drastically reduced consumption, no one will be happy.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/)
It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
Wow
Preach it, Brotha. Frugality is about what is good for everyone, and about having what you want without having everything ever buy all the stuff be jealous of my stuff have you seen all my stuff?!
Cutting back just to pad your wallet is stingy at best. Encouraging others to lay themselves and the world to waste for your financial benefit is plain disgusting.
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Sorry, I suspect others may have said this better, but my gut response is MYOB.
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It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
You're getting a little high and mighty there, buddy. No wonder your BIL isn't listening to you, if that's how you talk to him.
Most of us say it's noble and great and very positive of you to try and educate your brother about mustachian ideals. But you're coming across as unreasonable and pushy ("My way is superior and the only way to live, so DO IT"). You've presented your arguments, buy him a book or two, then back off and let him choose how he lives his life.
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I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!
That is a very sad, selfish, and cynical view of the world that I fear is fairly common in these forums. This is not a zero-sum game and without drastically reduced consumption, no one will be happy.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/)
It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
This sounds like something hardcore religious people would say..
Whatever. Keep going with that idyllic, Utopian dream where everyone is nice and helpful, and watch the world and other people be selfish dicks in return. Nobody wants' to be "converted" to anything. I don't understand this human need to try to spread you're beliefs on others, whatever it may be. I was bit like that when I was younger, but then realized it's pointless and annoying.
No I'm not doing this to be rich; I do it so I don't have to be dependent on or deal with annoying people, especially those who want to meddle in my life..
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I know a lot of people are saying to focus on the FI bit, but would he be interested in that? There are LOTS of reasons to different mustachian things. I'd find out what get's him going and echo what others say about not hitting ER or other points that he doesn't care about.
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Hell he is saving 30k a year which is alot more than I am saving while being a MMM reader. Good for him.
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Hell he is saving 30k a year which is alot more than I am saving while being a MMM reader. Good for him.
Yeah but he's not actively working to make the world a better place, therefore, his lifestyle is invalid.
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It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
You're getting a little high and mighty there, buddy. No wonder your BIL isn't listening to you, if that's how you talk to him.
Most of us say it's noble and great and very positive of you to try and educate your brother about mustachian ideals. But you're coming across as unreasonable and pushy ("My way is superior and the only way to live, so DO IT"). You've presented your arguments, buy him a book or two, then back off and let him choose how he lives his life.
Both BIL and I enjoy debate. I am not "unreasonable and pushy" considering he is initiating conversation, not to mention that my professional performance evaluations often remark on my ability to bring opposing viewpoints to a peaceful collaboration and my friends tell me I am often too accommodating to the viewpoints of others. I am simply trying to sharpen my arguments to ensure that I am presenting the bright side as competently as possible.
I'd appreciate a little less "shutup and color" and a few more constructive suggestions of how to focus our inevitable discussion, such as...
I know a lot of people are saying to focus on the FI bit, but would he be interested in that? There are LOTS of reasons to different mustachian things. I'd find out what get's him going and echo what others say about not hitting ER or other points that he doesn't care about.
I think FI is far more compelling to him than ER. For instance, he is considering a job change out of his organization but within the same industry. With that bit of insecurity, there is some palpable appeal to FI.
Thank you for echoing this constructive thought!
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Substitute "vegan" for "mustachianism" and I'm the BIL to some of my friends.
Everyone has their own idea of what's the right life to live. There are plenty of other people who would tsk at your lifestyle choices and mine, OP.
Lead by example if you choose, but it's really, really annoying to have someone down your throat about a belief you don't share. And you aren't likely to get very far.
Truthfully, it sounds like a penis-size contest. Mine is better than yours because...
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Lead by example if you choose, but it's really, really annoying to have someone down your throat about a belief you don't share. And you aren't likely to get very far.
Multiple posts above by EDSmedS emphasize that he isn't telling BIL how to live his life, BIL is asking why OP is acting poor (or whatever) and likes to talk about how he acts rich (or whatever), where OP wants to explain that acting poor leads to actual wealthiness with the hope that BIL will be able to see around his big fat leaky BILlfold (hahaha) long enough to see some of the light.
Pretty rude to keep accusing OP of being a pushy buttface when he's repeatedly stated that BIL initiates the money/savings conversation.
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Unless he is asking for your help, it is none of your business. It is also not up to you to invalidate his lifestyle. The only way it could become partly your concern is if his spendy ways are about to put him and his family on the streets with no possessions.
Discussions are great it is fun to debate and hear other viewpoints but don't try to enlist other people to help you change someone who didn't ask for help.
My mantra "Not my circus. Not my monkey"
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Lead by example if you choose, but it's really, really annoying to have someone down your throat about a belief you don't share. And you aren't likely to get very far.
Multiple posts above by EDSmedS emphasize that he isn't telling BIL how to live his life, BIL is asking why OP is acting poor (or whatever) and likes to talk about how he acts rich (or whatever), where OP wants to explain that acting poor leads to actual wealthiness with the hope that BIL will be able to see around his big fat leaky BILlfold (hahaha) long enough to see some of the light.
Pretty rude to keep accusing OP of being a pushy buttface when he's repeatedly stated that BIL initiates the money/savings conversation.
+2
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+3. This seems to be how it happens most of the time. People question the old car, the lunch pale, or something else. This is basic status quo bias in my opinion. If you challenge the status quo, you are questioned. However, you cannot question the questioner. Since it is entrenched, conventional wisdom, questioning it is viewed as mean, weird, or crazy. People do not want to be introspective about their lifestyle choices or philosophies.
Just try to convince anyone to vote for a candidate who isn't GOP or Dem and you'll see what I mean. People often can't see beyond the normal line of thought. For example, why would you ever vote for Nancy Pelosi if you live in San Francisco? She does not represent her constituency's values and there are often others who do so way better (a recent GOP candidate, many 3rd party types). She's going to win regardless, so why not send her a protest vote? This goes for any super-entrenched politician - I'm not only picking on Pelosi. Flip the script and use a Senator from AL if you'd like.
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Ok I'm in the "live and let live" camp. IF BIL is not accepting of the Gospel not much you can do.
For entertainment I act poor.. anybody who knows me knows this is not the truth (I retired after all), but they can't quite figure it out, so I think they assume I'm cheap and I play this up the waazoo.
Its a game, but you know one or two of my friends I know are saying to themselves.. Hang on, this guy has something here.
Liek when they compare expensve phones and I pull out my flip phone and say "$5 a month!!!.... Quickly followed by.. "Yes its the low use, I have no friends" plan!
All great fun.
Frank
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When an appropriate time arrives, tell him WHY you're doing this, share some of your GOALS for your retirement years, and explain how EASY it is . . . with a little planning. Tell him that you'd love to sit on a beach with him in Mexico for a month in off-season, both knowing that you're not rushing back to work next Monday. Tell him you'd like the free time for the two of you to learn to brew beer together. Tell him how much you crave the idea that if you were to lose your job in the next recession, it'd all be fine. Tell him your projected quit date.
Do this ONCE.
Then never mention it again.
Unless he asks, which he probably won't.
He's an adult and has every right to make his own choices.
Though we here on this board buy into your train of thought, we don't have a corner on "being right".
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Lead by example if you choose, but it's really, really annoying to have someone down your throat about a belief you don't share. And you aren't likely to get very far.
Multiple posts above by EDSmedS emphasize that he isn't telling BIL how to live his life, BIL is asking why OP is acting poor (or whatever) and likes to talk about how he acts rich (or whatever), where OP wants to explain that acting poor leads to actual wealthiness with the hope that BIL will be able to see around his big fat leaky BILlfold (hahaha) long enough to see some of the light.
Pretty rude to keep accusing OP of being a pushy buttface when he's repeatedly stated that BIL initiates the money/savings conversation.
+2
+3. This seems to be how it happens most of the time. People question the old car, the lunch pale, or something else. This is basic status quo bias in my opinion. If you challenge the status quo, you are questioned. However, you cannot question the questioner. Since it is entrenched, conventional wisdom, questioning it is viewed as mean, weird, or crazy. People do not want to be introspective about their lifestyle choices or philosophies.
KaylaEM, NoraLenderBee, and NICE!, thank you for reading the whole thread, lol! I'll add another to the volley:
BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.
I'm not spam emailing him to tell him that he is a hyperconsuming sheep, lol. I don't judge his choices. I don't even bring it up. Guess you can't stop people from rushing to judgment, even people that are on a blog-site that asks you to slow down your decision-making process. To those that keep telling me not to "preach," I wonder, do you feel like it is an effective strategy to preach at someone telling them to not preach?
So far the best suggestions have been 1) focus on FI/FU, 2) highlight the value that I receive from MMM, 3) discuss tax advantages available through thoughtful investment, 4) ask about contingency plans if the jobs stop, 5) let the discussion sink in, 6) describe the value of strategy and automation, 7) discuss the possibility of increased quality of life with greater FI, 8) get him a SO, lol, 9) get him MND.
Thanks to everyone that has come here with the aim of being constructive.
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You can modify previous posts, and I think that would be a wise idea for you to put some of what you just wrote into your original post.
Some people just read the first post and then throw their two cents in and move on while others stay for the conversation. I've done that if a topic has a lot of posts or pages and don't want to lose my thought before reading everything else. With some topics I'm curious about what others have to say and other times I'm not.
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BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.
Thanks to everyone that has come here with the aim of being constructive.
Well, EDSmedS, I did come here with the aim of being constructive, but clearly I was not. When my old boss used to ask if I'd read something, I'd ask, "Did I read it or did I memorize it?" I read the OP and skimmed the follow-ups. I didn't get that BIL was ASKING for help and clearly I'm not the only one. If you had asked what is in bold above in the original post, perhaps there would have been fewer comments that have been deemed "rude". Also, babysnowbird's advice about modifying your previous posts is spot on.
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It's good that your BIL wants to have healthy debates with you.
He may be trying to justify in his head his own spending.
Maybe he thinks that being frugal is a sign of weakness and failure?
For me, I love being frugal.
I could certainly be more frugal, and it comes and goes, but in general it's a good balance.
It brings out a creative side, on how I do things, or prepare meals.
On another 'investment' forum, I'm quite open about my frugal ways.
One person said something weird..which I will paraphrase
"I can't stand being around frugal people...no offence"
and in a thread they start...they ask how they can reduce their costs !!
With your BIL, you may need to give examples of how being frugal has enriched your lives.
It has given you choices you never imagined possible (ER / FI)
Sometimes I will make jokes of my frugality.As an example (true one)
"My husband and I spend $50 week average on groceries. I know that is a lot, but we are happy with amount"
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Sounds like BIL has much that is great in his life: travel, helping others in need, plenty of income for his wants. I wonder if his job also provides an adrenaline rush because of its challenges. I had a job like that until my mid 30s. It was hard to leave because it was so exciting. It was also exhausting. Only after I left did I realize how bizarre it was that my job was so much of my life.
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KaylaEM, NoraLenderBee, and NICE!, thank you for reading the whole thread, lol! I'll add another to the volley:
BIL IS ASKING ME ABOUT MY CHOICES AND WE ARE INTENTIONALLY DEBATING.
I'm not spam emailing him to tell him that he is a hyperconsuming sheep, lol. I don't judge his choices. I don't even bring it up. Guess you can't stop people from rushing to judgment, even people that are on a blog-site that asks you to slow down your decision-making process. To those that keep telling me not to "preach," I wonder, do you feel like it is an effective strategy to preach at someone telling them to not preach?
So this is exactly what I ran into in the Charity thread. Tons of people posting & PMing to say they were reconsidering their views, with about 3 people calling me an asshole. Was I perfect? Nope. Can you please everyone? Nope. Is calling someone an asshole effective? Nope.
Same deal here. I will say that the post about people skimming is definitely true. If someone doesn't like what the OP says, I think they will often jump right in without reading follow-up discussion.
As for what you should do, I'd say #1-7 are all good ideas.
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You aren't going to convince everybody, especially if they don't want to be convinced. Enjoy your frugal life and if he ever comes to you for advice, give it to him. Otherwise, stop worrying about it.
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BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).
OP defends mustachianism.
There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.
Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything? Live and let live.
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BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).
OP defends mustachianism.
There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.
Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything? Live and let live.
Aaand they're off!
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I don't really understand the mindset to "live and let live". Do parents do that? Does government do that? Do you necessarily have to be in a governmental or parental position to try to influence other's lives when you know it's for the better? People are straight up ignorant and clueless when it comes right down to it. I'd love for someone to give me great advice all the time! Even if he DIDN'T initiate these conversations, it doesn't hurt to try to help him.
Now, continuously arguing with him over it would be another story. Pointing him in the right direction sounds harmless though.
It's difficult to know from which angle to attack the situation without knowing how much he actually saves, or if he's in debt at all, neither of which have been answered, though some in this thread have assumed he saves $30k a year (no proof).
For some of your reasons so far...
- Frugality means spending to your priorities, which requires that you know/develop your priorities, which leads to greater happiness, better relationships, and self-improvement.
Frugality is more about efficiency than balancing priorities. One's priority could be travel. You could spend $2k or $200k on travel in a year. That definition doesn't explain frugality. He doesn't want to be "frugal", so you'll never appeal to him in this way.
- Post FIRE, you can do what you want, when you want
Yes, but he can do what he wants when he wants it right now more or less. He wants to keep his income so he wants to work. His end game at the moment is not retiring.
- Thinking about money AHEAD of the wave prevents worrying about money AFTER the wave
I would start here...
We all know it's not about income, it's about savings rate. It's easier to save with a higher income of course.
I think the best way to get through is to inform him that he isn't going to want to work forever. At some point, he's going to want a change in his life or possibly quit. He's already in a stressful situation, so this could happen sooner than later. Building FU money is what he needs, not a speech on FIRE.
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MMM is a program of attraction, not conversion. Shine your own light.
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I don't really understand the mindset to "live and let live". Do parents do that? Does government do that? Do you necessarily have to be in a governmental or parental position to try to influence other's lives when you know it's for the better? People are straight up ignorant and clueless when it comes right down to it. I'd love for someone to give me great advice all the time! Even if he DIDN'T initiate these conversations, it doesn't hurt to try to help him.
Now, continuously arguing with him over it would be another story. Pointing him in the right direction sounds harmless though.
It's difficult to know from which angle to attack the situation without knowing how much he actually saves, or if he's in debt at all, neither of which have been answered, though some in this thread have assumed he saves $30k a year (no proof).
For some of your reasons so far...
- Frugality means spending to your priorities, which requires that you know/develop your priorities, which leads to greater happiness, better relationships, and self-improvement.
Frugality is more about efficiency than balancing priorities. One's priority could be travel. You could spend $2k or $200k on travel in a year. That definition doesn't explain frugality. He doesn't want to be "frugal", so you'll never appeal to him in this way.
- Post FIRE, you can do what you want, when you want
Yes, but he can do what he wants when he wants it right now more or less. He wants to keep his income so he wants to work. His end game at the moment is not retiring.
- Thinking about money AHEAD of the wave prevents worrying about money AFTER the wave
I would start here...
We all know it's not about income, it's about savings rate. It's easier to save with a higher income of course.
I think the best way to get through is to inform him that he isn't going to want to work forever. At some point, he's going to want a change in his life or possibly quit. He's already in a stressful situation, so this could happen sooner than later. Building FU money is what he needs, not a speech on FIRE.
Live and let live is based on the context here: Grown adults making decisions for their own lives. In this case neither one is breaking any laws or anything like that.
I really don't get how people aren't understanding that the BIL obviously doesn't care enough to change his behaviour. And that is his prerogative.
BIL scoffs at mustachianism (from the first post).
OP defends mustachianism.
There is a deadlock, stalemate, or whatever you'd like to call it.
Why is there a need to convince anyone of anything? Live and let live.
Aaand they're off!
Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were the one I had to ask permission of before posting on a thread. Thanks for the clarification on that. <eyeroll>
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UPDATE
On our advice, he started budgeting and invested a good portion of his NW (which has grown ~30% since). About 2 years later he decided that the job was draining him and he met a lady, moved to several different countries, and is now married with 2 kids. He didn't work for a bit when the first was born (though his wife continued to work after maternity leave) and now works as a consultant making less.
We now have semi-annual discussions about their budget and short-and-long-term goals.
Also, on his advice, we started spending a little bit more. Things like fresh flowers and fancy beer became quite a staple in our life and have certainly not been unhelpful during our journey to early retirement.
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Thanks for the update, EDS. It's fun when people update old threads (and this one was very old).
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Cool update! I love that he actually followed the joke advice to get married and have kids!
Looking back, what do you think were the ideas that led him to change his mindset away from "work hard, earn a lot, spend a bit less than that, don't think about money"?
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This is great news. I got a call from my brother yesterday joking about me being his "financial advisor".... we almost never talk about money so it was surprising to me! But we covered current interest rates on savings and money market accounts, CDs, 529s, and most importantly, the freedom that comes from having $$ in the bank in case things go wrong or you simply need to get out of a situation.
Glad your BIL is in a better place! And nice work on being available for his questions when he was ready.
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I'm also totally confused why you care?? If anything all the money he's spending is increasing the value of your (and my) investments! You should encourage him to spend more! And maybe you can get some used gadgets? In fact the fewer other frugal people there are the better off everyone here is, so stop encouraging less spending!
That is a very sad, selfish, and cynical view of the world that I fear is fairly common in these forums. This is not a zero-sum game and without drastically reduced consumption, no one will be happy.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/)
It is hard to read a lot of these responses that seem to say that we shouldn't recruit those around us to MMM style consumption strategies. Doesn't the joy you receive from MMM make you want to spread it around? Are you all here just to get rich? That's a shame...
No one is saying don't preach it. People are saying it don't shove it down someone's throat.
Wow, sorry, i didn't realize how old this thread was!