relationship - predicting/creating financial success

[scrubbyfish]

On my Journal, I've just posted a list of 16 finance-related characteristics I think would most serve a relationship financially.
It is here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/2014-goals-sole-provider-for-self-and-child/msg319438/#msg319438

Would love to get people's input -based on their bad or awesome experiences- on this list, or any additional ideas.

The list came out of personal reflection as I re-enter the dating world, this time interested only in a relationship that is a true, healthy, supportive partnership, in all aspects -including financial.

Interestingly, in developing this list, I had a sense that if a person is truly "on track" financially (not just wealthy), there is a pretty decent chance they've sorted out a lot of other issues, such as those related to dependency, shame, confidence, etc. Meaning, if a person has the qualities I've listed, they would probably make not only an awesome financial partner but also a wonderful partner in terms of overall communication, true intimacy, etc.


Edited to clarify that this list references only financial characteristics, because this is something I need to pay much more attention to in a person I already find attractive emotionally, conversationally, spiritually, sexually, etc.

[frompa]

While I agree that a relationship or marriage can interfere with your financial success, in my experience I have found that your financial success has much more to do with YOU than with the fictional "him" of your characteristics list.  And, I've known some very financially successful people, who got there through hard work and saving and smart investing, who were also miserable, mean-spirited, nasty people.

Relationship predicting.  Would that life were so simple. 

[mozar]

I know what you mean. I read 'data, a love story' which is really about a woman figuring out what she is looking for. I found the list on the journal a little vague. I made an 80 point list of specific things that I am looking for listed in order of what qualities would qualify someone for a first date. For example I would not even go on a date if someone is religious. I think frugal/ good with money is the minimum. You have to get along too.

[scrubbyfish]

While I agree that a relationship or marriage can interfere with your financial success, in my experience I have found that your financial success has much more to do with YOU than with the fictional "him" of your characteristics list.

Absolutely agree that what we ourselves do is the primary factor.

My experience (which resulted in my making a list of finance-related qualities to look for) says also, though, that who I partner with has at least equal impact. i.e., I have always been: a careful saver, paying all bills on time, following the laws, etc. However, when the government sent tax credits to a partner and he blew it on video games every month leaving us unable to pay our rent, this definitely affected me. When a partner insisted on "no discussion" before moving in together, and a total dismissal of the laws around cohabitation, this left me vulnerable to losing everything I was bringing in. No matter what I do for my credit rating, if a partner's is abysmal, a mortgage may well be denied to our family.

So, what you are saying is still true -my financial security has a lot to do with what I do, yes. But part of what I do is choosing one potential partner vs another. Too many of us are missing this step about recognizing how the other person's approaches also factor in. This is a part I have totally overlooked in relationship, and don't want to do again, so aiming for increased awareness on my part.

And, I've known some very financially successful people, who got there through hard work and saving and smart investing, who were also miserable, mean-spirited, nasty people.

Yes.

My own goal isn't to connect with someone who is merely (or even at all) wealthy, and regardless of personality, but I'm not in danger of being with someone miserable, mean-spirited, and nasty. Only someone with different financial priorities, so this "awareness list" was built on the financial aspect only. I would certainly also consider personality -but no longer at the expense of financial integrity.

[scrubbyfish]

I found the list on the journal a little vague.

Oh, interesting! I thought people might find it too specific!

For me it feels specific, because each point reflects the opposite scenario of circumstances I've experienced.

I think frugal/ good with money is the minimum. You have to get along too.

Totally. Yes, what I would seek in terms of a partner would go way beyond financial alignment. Honesty, shared laughter/humour, intelligent conversation, mutual care, open-heartedness, etc, are absolutely critical for me. I made this list to increase my awareness around one piece that I need to pay more attention to, i.e. not partnering with someone who is a "lovely, brilliant artist who makes me laugh" even if she is going to create financial catastrophe, know what I mean?

[socaso]

I think it is a very good thing to consider what you want in a partner and it's a healthy thing to be willing to throw some stuff out the window. At the end of the day it sounds like you want someone you can trust with finances and there are lots of ways that can be demonstrated. One thing I love about my husband is that we have very open communication about our finances. Even when we don't agree we talk.

[scrubbyfish]

...it sounds like you want someone you can trust with finances and there are lots of ways that can be demonstrated.

Yes! Very well reflected back! Thank you.

One thing I love about my husband is that we have very open communication about our finances. Even when we don't agree we talk.

YUM.

I LOVE reading people on MMM who have this in their relationship. The very concept was not only foreign to me before coming to these forums, it was absolutely unknown to me > I simply did my best to care for my finances within other circumstances. When MMM himself talked about having financial alignment and communication with his wife, I was gobsmacked...and kind of wrote it off as a rarity, a dream, sheer luck, merely a bonus, etc. But since then, I have found others, like you, here and have come to understand that this is possible for anyone who sets it as one important aspect of their overall relationship. I have felt truly and utterly inspired by those of you who have this element in your relationship. It's so exciting to have learned this is possible! And I feel very lucky and grateful that I learned this before starting any new relationship.

(Also, totally agree about throwing some criteria out as needed/justified/indicated. I recently threw "height" out. Arbitrary, meaningless, and without impact, thus gone.)

[mozar]

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm saying I wouldn't even go out on a first date with this lovely brilliant artist who makes me laugh, unless they have somehow demonstrated an interest in frugality. There are many different ways to pick up on this. If someone mentions their ferrari on their profile, I don't care how funny they are.

[scrubbyfish]

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm saying I wouldn't even go out on a first date with this lovely brilliant artist who makes me laugh, unless they have somehow demonstrated an interest in frugality. There are many different ways to pick up on this. If someone mentions their ferrari on their profile, I don't care how funny they are.

Ah! Excellent! Got it, super helpful.

With my favourite date so far, I don't think I saw signs of frugality (or spendiness) in his profile, but on our first date I learned several things that pointed at relative frugality and other manifestations of possible financial responsibility/intelligence, and that helped me want a second date. (That he is a very conversational artist that makes me laugh, etc, were also present.)

Also, I have now ordered from the library the book you mentioned above. Hadn't heard about it before, and it looks delightful! Thanks.

[Zikoris]

I always keep a look out for "lack of interest in consuming", I guess you could say. When I first met my boyfriend, it was pretty apparent - he had very little possessions, didn't go to bars, didn't have a car, didn't have TV or any interest in any sort of shows or tv sports, sold video games as soon as he played them, and just overall didn't seem to buy stuff. The same would be pretty apparent for me.

Basically, I like to live a very low consumption, minimalist lifestyle, and need to be with someone who enjoys that and doesn't feel that's a sacrifice. It's not enough for someone to be willing to give up buying crap for my sake - they have to have no desire to buy it in the first place.

[scrubbyfish]

Ah, very helpful, Zikoris! Thanks!

So, now I can see that even without mention or photo of a Ferrari, there are still places a person reflects the more subtle degrees of financial care in an online profile. For example, several guys here present about their boat quite a bit. One site asks us all "what six things could you not live without?". Most people say their kids, air, family, etc, but there might be some giveaways in that section of a person's profile. And OKCupid gives the option of answering questions like: how many books do you own, do you have a TV in your bedroom, do you own a car. No one answer is entirely telling on its own, but looked at together, one might get hints about minimalism vs consumerism, etc.

Hmmm... This and Mozar's comments is resolving a major piece for me!! There are two fellows I liked enough to be willing to see again. One seemed so lovely, but has a big TV, is really into sports, wears some jewelry, and drives a big vehicle. I hated that all of this put me off a person who is intelligent, conversational, and very considerate. I didn't really know what to do with that, how to decline a second date based on such superficial reasons in me.

The other fellow I'm a bit gaga over. However, when I asked myself when I last felt this strongly about someone right off the bat, I realized it was when I met my son's father, which has been a sad story for us. So, suddenly I was quite afraid -not trusting my judgment, because I was too unaware with him yadda yadda. But now I realize... My son's father seemed financially sensible to me only because he had a few thousand dollars in savings (unheard of in my circle) and chose to live rent-free with his family. But what I didn't piece together until right now (!) is that he also had: several souped up and personalized/detailed vehicles; several very expensive hobbies; a taste for very fancy/showy clothing; an absolute assumption and belief that "all women" like these things in a guy. And so on. He left both my son and I with no support whatsoever. So, hours ago I had fear that I would make a similar mistake, but now I realize there was information about his financial priorities and beliefs, and that the fellow I went on a date with has so far presented opposite information. Wow. (Good work, MMM forum!)

[mozar]

It's all pretty tough to navigate and I'm still figuring it out. For example my ex had a high credit score, lived in a group house, cooked home cooked meals pretty often, didn't own a tv, had minimal student loans.
But... all this minimalism was so they could maintain their shopping habits. Shoes particularly. Turning points for me are when they said that they thought it was a good idea to hide a shopping addiction from children, and told me they thought it would be a good idea to go into debt to pay for the wedding, although we both make plenty of money. The best dating advice I have ever heard is that people tell you who they are, so listen!
For the guy who is into sports, tv, cars, these aren't superficial reasons, they are lifestyle choices. One can't be happy with someone who has a different lifestyle than you.
For OKC that is exactly what I do. It can be a little tricky because a lot of people will say what they think people want to hear for general questions like is "wealth important to you in a match," most say no as to not seem shallow. But there are many more direct questions that work. Like how many hours of tv do you watch a week or "are you concerned with your image and the way people perceive you?"

[scrubbyfish]

Wow, mozar, what a perfect account of what can give a false impression of financial care! I guess it's better that they were frugal in some areas in order to be able to buy shoes than it would have been to create massive debt over the habit. In a sense, it's kind of Mustachian, even, because they were saving in some areas in order to spend on priorities. Goes to show, though, that no presentation tells us everything. For example, probably some people using online dating would be put off by my lowish income... and would have no idea that I'm very good at saving and have a 'stache bigger than most people in my circles (though at the same time also far, far smaller than many people in Vancouver, BC).

Frugality is a tricky one for me. I would want someone balanced, wise, and conscious of her finances, but not extremely frugal. An ability to save, and to invest well, would be of more interest to me than extreme frugality.

Tough to navigate, indeed!

But the most important financial aspects for me are: honesty, integrity, communication, and savings to get one through at least six months. I think if those were present, I would feel sufficiently safe, comfortable, and happy with a person (in terms of finances).

The best dating advice I have ever heard is that people tell you who they are, so listen!

Love this! And whenever I look back, I find this to be absolutely true. i.e., "Listen/observe" vs "project my fantasies onto a person".

For the guy who is into sports, tv, cars, these aren't superficial reasons, they are lifestyle choices. One can't be happy with someone who has a different lifestyle than you.

Thank you! This absolutely helped me find the words to kindly express myself to him.

or "are you concerned with...the way people perceive you?"

Good one, yes! For that one, I'm aware of looking for people who answer with neither a resounding yes nor a resounding no, but rather something in the area of "a little bit/somewhat". This (in me) is not because I want someone who dresses fancy, but because I do want someone who cares about courtesy and social graces. I've dated people (and stumbled across people online) who are very opposed to conventional courtesies, and learned this is a strong value for me.

[iris lily]

It also helps if both of you value the same thing for what is worth spending big money on. If you are going to be frugal most of the time because you both like that lifestyle, that's great. But when one of you want to spend blow out money--does the partner agree?

When DH and I met, we both liked to travel out of the country, to Europe and Asia. So that's always something he's willing to spend money on when I've got a travel urge.

[CarDude]

Just chiming in...financial trust can definitely happen. My wife and I decided to merge finances after we got engaged, and it seemed perfectly normal to me. However, I know the idea of fully merging was odd to her since her parents had had a partial setup, wherein they had a joint account but also separate accounts for personal spending. My parents had a money pot approach, so that's what I saw as normal. Our approach has been very smooth together, even though we didn't (don't) have exactly the same level of spending. I'd say the most important thing to do is to find someone who wants to work as a team in every part of the relationship. It doesn't have to be perfect from the start (we're always improving), but the team part is big, as it's what lets you work out the details together.

[scrubbyfish]

It also helps if both of you values on what is worth spending big money on. If you are going to be frugal most of the time because you both like that lifestyle, that's great. But when one of you want to spend blow out money--does the partner agree?

Nice! Thank you, Iris Lily, for the excellent addition!

[scrubbyfish]

...financial trust can definitely happen. [...] I'd say the most important thing to do is to find someone who wants to work as a team in every part of the relationship. It doesn't have to be perfect from the start (we're always improving), but the team part is big, as it's what lets you work out the details together.

CarSafetyGuy, this is really great, too! One, to hear that "financial trust can happen". I found it helpful to hear even that phrase. But that "team" piece, wow, yeah > that very well sums up a major piece of what I dream of (and have never had). This single word has helped give me language for the conversation I will hopefully have one day with someone.

In other news, the dude I am gaga over just gave an indication of balance: suggesting a particular venue for a meal out, and noting that it's "not overly expensive". (I checked the menu online and it is definitely do-able for me.) So, there is consciousness there, at the very least.

[scrubbyfish]

I read 'data, a love story' which is really about a woman figuring out what she is looking for.

mozar: Just came back to say THANK YOU for mentioning this title. After you did, I ordered it from the library. It came in yesterday and I am splitting a gut over it. It is HILARIOUS! I really identify with the author in several ways, which is a bonus.

[DollarBill]

Lots of good tips here. I'm single (M-39) and I struggle with dating.
Things I have trouble with:
-Most single women I meet are in a relationship...even if they are unhappy and it's not going somewhere
-Dating is expensive for guys because of the expectations
-Don't care how much they make but would appreciate if they were frugal
-If they make good money...would appreciate someone who lives below their means
-A lot can't visualize "FIRE" or want to sacrifice for later life

I'm not trying to be an ass, just sharing my journey. I'm sure you can say the same about guys. We really need to figure out why we are attracted to the wrong people. I've taken a time out from dating to really find out what I want in a relationship.   

[YoungInvestor]

I know what you mean. I read 'data, a love story' which is really about a woman figuring out what she is looking for. I found the list on the journal a little vague. I made an 80 point list of specific things that I am looking for listed in order of what qualities would qualify someone for a first date. For example I would not even go on a date if someone is religious. I think frugal/ good with money is the minimum. You have to get along too.

Wouldn't it be shorter to just go on that date and figure out whether or not there should be a second one afterwards?

It seems like you are thinking too much about it. It's ok to be unsure and still go on a date (As long as you don't think it would put you in a dangerous situation). That's how you get to know someone, in my opinion. Not by checking 80 items off a list.

And anyway, I had some of my best dates with girls who just weren't a good fit for me and whom I never did anything with afterwards. You may be missing out on great fun even if these guys don't meet 11.25% of your list's items.

[scrubbyfish]

Hey DollarBill: Great to have you in the conversation! You don't sound like an ass :)

I think you are (anyone is) so wise to take a break and assess as needed. Some of my own breaks have intentionally lasted several years.

There was another thread about the matter of "expectations for guys to pay for dates" -a vigorous debate, indeed. I can't think of what the thread was called, but you might enjoy it. For sure there are various experiences and opinions, and mine is only one, but I'm solidly in the camp of:
(a) not believing there is an across-the-board expectation anymore, and
(b) believing that this belief may in fact be getting in some guys' ways.

One dear, male, frugal friend of mine complains that first dates (he'd go on several in a month) were costing him $200-$300/mo. I think that's absurd, and entirely unnecessary.

I'm female, 42, and I have zero expectation that a fellow support me long term or short term, including on a first date. I propose a date that is free or very cheap (and super short): a walk through a neat (and busy) part of town, urban geocaching, or a cup of tea, and I happily accept such proposals from guys. On the one hand, I think this "financial easygoingness" is part of what's gotten me involved with guys who try to live off me or steal (!) money from me. On the other, I remain confident I can now find someone who is both frugal and trustworthy.

I'm really liking the free online dating systems. (Contrary to popular insistence, not all women receive loads of emails -especially women who talk more about books and geek things than about sex- so my appreciation is not due to my being female.) I just like it because it tells me immediately who is actually single, which real life doesn't do. I recommend it on that count, as well as others.

[DollarBill]

One dear, male, frugal friend of mine complains that first dates (he'd go on several in a month) were costing him $200-$300/mo. I think that's absurd, and entirely unnecessary

This was my average too! Refuse to do it anymore.

I'm really liking the free online dating systems. (Contrary to popular insistence, not all women receive loads of emails -especially women who talk more about books and geek things than about sex- so my appreciation is not due to my being female.) I just like it because it tells me immediately who is actually single, which real life doesn't do. I recommend it on that count, as well as others.

Geeks are in style! I've always been a introvert jock...lol. I've changed plenty over the years. Maybe you should PM me :).

[mozar]

Scrubbyfish: your welcome! I think that book is hilarious too.

YoungInvestor: my system is a little more complicated than what I posted before. There are 80 or so qualities and they each have points. I need a certain number of points to go on a first date. A certain number of points to go on a second date. This keeps my honest as I tend to ignore my gut feelings.

For a first date there are about 5 qualities they have to have. Examples: some indicator of values around money that are similar to mine, wants marriage/kids, is not religious etc.
You see, you get to an age eventually (well not everyone) where you aren't just looking for "fun" but someone to build a life with. That requires compatibility.
Lots of people don't care about compatibility and that's their life, but I'm not wasting my time anymore on "fun."

I'm a fan of OKC in particular, great for blocking creeps.

[DollarBill]

Scrubbyfish: your welcome! I think that book is hilarious too.

YoungInvestor: my system is a little more complicated than what I posted before. There are 80 or so qualities and they each have points. I need a certain number of points to go on a first date. A certain number of points to go on a second date. This keeps my honest as I tend to ignore my gut feelings.

For a first date there are about 5 qualities they have to have. Examples: some indicator of values around money that are similar to mine, wants marriage/kids, is not religious etc.
You see, you get to an age eventually (well not everyone) where you aren't just looking for "fun" but someone to build a life with. That requires compatibility.
Lots of people don't care about compatibility and that's their life, but I'm not wasting my time anymore on "fun."

I'm a fan of OKC in particular, great for blocking creeps.

It kind of sucks getting older...I don't like knowing the things I do. Wish I could just rewind and be dumber. But I will never have a check list for dating. It's hard to find a partner!

[mozar]

I think getting older is great! And you don't know whats on my checklist, but not judging other people for the way they choose to live their life is one of them!
 
EDITED: DollarBill, you changed your comment! Hopefully its because you realized how mean you were being. I too can use the edit button!

[scrubbyfish]

...I will never have a check list for dating. It's hard to find a partner!

Hi DollarBill: My sense of what you're saying is that you want to keep a "wide net cast", to not inadvertently miss out on a great person. Am I understanding correctly?

In the account Data, A Love Story (which I finished already today, laughing hysterically and loudly at various points), the author starts with the "wide net" approach, has some awful experiences, and then figures out how to game the system to actually find someone she's compatible with, so that finding a partner is not hard, expensive, etc. It's really neat. She presents an approach similar to that which Mozar is using.

I don't have a written list or point system for first dates, but I definitely "filter" (in my head) for major aspects when reading their profile or initial emails: Does this person sound depressed? Defeated? Angry? Super involved with their ex? Are they polyamorous? Are sports their primary form of recreation? Nothing inherently wrong with any of these qualities, but I've been in relationships where these were strongly present, and I felt unhappy, which sucked for both of us. So now I actively seek things like happiness, monogamy, more interests in common, etc.

In my panic of being between Date 2 and Date 3 with the new fellow, I saw my counsellor today. She said something interesting. She said that because of my life experiences, I tend to have a very wide tolerance for, compassion for, and genuine interest in a very wide range of people and behaviours. She said this can lend itself very well to a profession such as counselling, but that I need to be very careful that I don't apply it in dating. This was quite striking for me. She's essentially saying, "Go ahead and cast a wide net in terms of clients, and even for friends, but not for a partner. Be very particular when assessing for match." I appreciate that differentiation. Even on this forum, there are a good number of people who have found or are finding that poor compatibility is far more heartbreaking and challenging than being single is (and that's certainly been my experience, too). So, I'm kinda hoping you hold out for an awesome match!

[DollarBill]

I think getting older is great! And you don't know whats on my checklist, but not judging other people for the way they choose to live their life is one of them!
 
EDITED: DollarBill, you changed your comment! Hopefully its because you realized how mean you were being. I too can use the edit button!

lol...I can't remember what I edited but I'm sure it was due to having a few drinks and blogging (these don't mix). I'm a bit tainted from my ex ;).

Hi DollarBill: My sense of what you're saying is that you want to keep a "wide net cast", to not inadvertently miss out on a great person. Am I understanding correctly?

I haven't casted any nets in a couple years. Yes, I try not to miss out on a great person but I have been known to make bad decisions. When I do date I don't rush things, seems like most in the US will go on a few dates then jump in the sack or it feels weird to go out on other dates. I'd rather keep things simple and fun but could land you in the "just friends" category.
 

[scrubbyfish]

...I have been known to make bad decisions. When I do date I don't rush things, seems like most in the US will go on a few dates then jump in the sack or it feels weird to go out on other dates. I'd rather keep things simple and fun but could land you in the "just friends" category.

Ditto all of the above for me! All very well said.

This is why I developed the finance-related list, and why I'm seeing a relationship counsellor between Dates 2 and 3, so I can this time watch for stuff, change my own patterns, etc. I'd far rather be single forever than repeat any of my worst patterns, including inadvertently choosing someone not awesome.

I, too, feel that societal pressure about early sex, and was sure to talk with my counsellor about that, about how I can allow myself the time I need to develop an actual relationship before having sex, but at the same time not feel bad about potentially "leading a person on" if I ultimately decline a romantic relationship. Counsellor was awesome about all of it. On third date, I will simply be bringing this topic up in person, saying where I'm at, what I'm doing, and asking him where he's at/how this lands for him.

[Thegoblinchief]

I married the only woman I ever dated, so I can't give very good advice, but I wish y'all the best and found the thread informative :)

[mozar]

+1 for staying single. I feel fortunate I will never be in a unhealthy for me relationship again. That said I just got a message from someone who meets all of my criteria off the bat. Even if it doesn't go anywhere, I'm glad they exist.

I have read research about how many dates one should go on, but I haven't tested it as I just got out of a long term relationship a few months ago and haven't been on any dates.

[lifejoy]

I just want to chime in to say that I thought my SO was very spendy I met him. Also, I was going through the loss of a family member + gained inheritance, so I was spending a lot (not my usual self). My point is, sometimes money habits can change. My SO is now totally on board with mustachianism, and my life has returned to frugality.

I guess, preferences are one thing, but ignorance is another. A lot of people that find MMM used to be mr. Mcspendypants, but it doesn't mean they will never change!


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[ambimammular]

My point is, sometimes money habits can change. My SO is now totally on board with mustachianism, and my life has returned to frugality.

I guess, preferences are one thing, but ignorance is another. A lot of people that find MMM used to be mr. Mcspendypants, but it doesn't mean they will never change!

How True!

I wouldn't want to dive into a relationship trying to change a person's financial priorities. But I think a good conversation is how mustachianism is spread. And in the course of finding out about each other your own frugal ideals should shine through, if you're being yourself.

[mozar]

I think that it comes down to values. I bet that libraryjoy's SO had the values she was looking for such as being open minded that allowed him to be open to being frugal. I wouldn't expect mustachianism right away but characteristics such as ability to see someone else's point of view are important, and can't be taken for granted.

There are also people who value spending money on consumption and this is important to them. For those of us who are recovering from emotional abuse, knowing what to look for isn't obvious to us. So sure they can start off spendy, but figuring out who might change is hard. I would rather avoid the whole guessing game and just pursue people who don't highly value mindless consumption.

[scrubbyfish]

...sometimes money habits can change.

For sure!

I wonder how age factors in to all this, too. i.e., I wonder if it is safer to assume that a 22 year old *might* change their spending over time and that a 45 year old is *less* likely to do a 180. What do you all think?

I'm betting there are often bigger changes (for good or bad) with: becoming a student, a new high income career, marriage, becoming a parent, divorce, child support payments, supporting an aging parent, etc. A lot of people my age (42+) have navigated all these life stages and might now be more "established" in their decisions about how they're going to live (though we certainly have several phenomenal exceptions on this forum!), and perhaps also feel less hopeful/optimistic or even less resilient as a result of experiencing so many wild cards, too.

[lifejoy]

...sometimes money habits can change.

For sure!

I wonder how age factors in to all this, too. i.e., I wonder if it is safer to assume that a 22 year old *might* change their spending over time and that a 45 year old is *less* likely to do a 180. What do you all think?

I'm betting there are often bigger changes (for good or bad) with: becoming a student, a new high income career, marriage, becoming a parent, divorce, child support payments, supporting an aging parent, etc. A lot of people my age (42+) have navigated all these life stages and might now be more "established" in their decisions about how they're going to live (though we certainly have several phenomenal exceptions on this forum!), and perhaps also feel less hopeful/optimistic or even less resilient as a result of experiencing so many wild cards, too.

Excellent point! Age would likely be a factor. I also agree with what Mozar was saying about a person's values. It makes a difference! My SO is a very open indeed and Also highly adaptable, and a fan of efficiency :)


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[scrubbyfish]

Captain Awkward has done several excellent posts recently re: financial conversations. Here's the latest. It happens to be an resounding match to the last situation in which I moved in with someone (three years ago), and only barely dodged the bullet the writer of this question is far more wisely skirting: http://captainawkward.com/2014/08/06/608-my-partner-wants-to-move-in-together-but-i-dont-feel-comfortable-combining-finances-with-him/#more-7161

[bdc]

My wife and I had proportionate balance sheets when we met -- mine was twice as big (twice as many assets and twice as much debt -- but also twice as much income).  I took it as a good sign of financial similarity/compatibility ... and it was: we maintain a 40%-50% savings rate without much focused effort.

So, my reaction to the list is: focus more on the data than the narrative. 

[scrubbyfish]

So, my reaction to the list is: focus more on the data than the narrative.

What does that mean, please, bdc?

[bdc]

So, my reaction to the list is: focus more on the data than the narrative.

What does that mean, please, bdc?

I just mean: look at what your prospective partner actually *does* rather than the feelings about money or how it is discussed.  How much is earned; how much is spent; how much is saved.  People have a lot of different ways of *talking* (or not talking) about money -- so it's easy to be misled (in either direction) by what someone says.  Looking at actual past behavior is a more solid foundation to predict the future.

[scrubbyfish]

Ah! Excellent, bdc. Thanks!

[tyler1215]

I find this interesting and haven't had a lot of experience at my young age (26). My mentality has always to build a relationship built on respect and communication. Prior to finding MMM, I thought I was ok being an engineer and would always be able to provide a comfortable lifestyle for my potential SO. The last time I tried online dating, I remember going out with high income girls but they lived high maintenance lifestyles. Looking back, that should have been red flags for me, and scary to think about twenty year olds acting like that.

After I grew up and became more frugal and financially savvy, it changed my relationships with certain people. I reconnected with an old friend that left her ex-husband with 2 kids and nothing. Now she makes decent money and is able to support herself and her boys on her own. A good thing since her ex owes $12k in back child support. Now that she has her act together, her ex has been getting pressure from his family to get back together with her. I just laughed when she told me this and crushed him when he asked her out. We always have a good laugh when she shares her recent online dating experiences. Since we reconnected and I shared with her that I debt free and saving/investing, she raised her expectations for men. She puts on her profile that guys need to have the act together and be debt free. She will share conversations with me about guys claiming high incomes but have new trucks, tats, jewelry, etc. she just laughs at them now. It amazes me how much guys emphasize their income and think it impresses (I did fall into that camp a few years ago).

In my recent experience, I only share that I'm debt free but leave the details out. I do know that that fact reinforces security. I strongly agree that relationships should be a team effort. I have my individual goals and even have team goals for FI. I would like to have the fine things in life and look forward to providing those things for my SO one day, but I want us to hit our FI goals first, then we can buy the nice stuff, with cash of course.

I leave with this quote from my dad: "marry an asset. Don't marry a debt. Your brother did this and he is literally paying for it."

[iris lily]

...I leave with this quote from my dad: "marry an asset. Don't marry a debt. Your brother did this and he is literally paying for it."

aw, that's a great quote from your dad. That's something that would have resonated in my family.

[scrubbyfish]

Really great contribution, tyler1215, thanks!

[iris lily]

...I just mean: look at what your prospective partner actually *does* rather than the feelings about money or how it is discussed.  How much is earned; how much is spent; how much is saved.  People have a lot of different ways of *talking* (or not talking) about money -- so it's easy to be misled (in either direction) by what someone says.  Looking at actual past behavior is a more solid foundation to predict the future.

Well, listening to someone's feelings about money is incredibly important, it goes along with the earlier advice "people tell you who they are, so listen." But sure, verification is equally important. If you've got a dude telling you "I've invested a lot of money, a LOT! Because I want to retire when I'm 40" and you find that the guy has only net assets of $25,000 when he's been pulling down a large salary for years, that's a situation where the facts don't fit the narrative. And if you've got a dude telling you "I was poor as a child, never want to be poor again, will work until I am dead i order to make sure I'm not poor" and yet the guy could retire on the $2.3 million he's got in the bank, well, that's another set of conflicting circumstances that need assessment.

I guess that I would asses a man's risk as financial partner in the same way I'd asses his risk as a partner at all to see if he wants to marry me: listen to his words, assess his actions (or the data.) BOTH are important.

[scrubbyfish]

More excellence. Thanks, iris lily!

I think this topic would feel moot to so many people on the forum, but for those of us who have experienced primarily dysfunction and have had no guidance/examples/orientation whatsoever in these kinds of things, these details are really helpful. I really appreciate people chiming in with all these perspectives!