Author Topic: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?  (Read 19305 times)

ReadySetMillionaire

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I'm 28 and have had only two cars in my life: a 2001 Nissan Maxima (which I drove from about 2004 to 2007) and a 2008 Ford Focus (2007 to present). I paid off the Focus three years ago which is obviously great. It has about 86,000 miles, but unfortunately is already requiring a little bit of money in repairs each year. I paid probably a total of $3,000 for repairs in the past two years. I'm 90% certain I'm going to have to get new breaks and other expensive parts within the next year or so.

I'm hoping my car lasts for another couple years, but I'm not sure I'm willing to pony up for another huge engine/parts repair any time soon.

Which brings me to wanting a Civic. Most people have always wanted a BMW or Mercedes...I've basically wanted a Civic since I was 16. Unfortunately my older brother worked at car dealerships for both of my previous car purchases and thus I ended up with a Nissan and Focus.

Now, why a 2016 model? Well, Honda basically completely re-did the Civic's exterior and interior this year (not that I pay any attention to cars on a year to year basis, but I just found out from this review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFYevVhC5sg) and it looks very, very sharp. The LX retails for about $19,000.

So, when would be the best time to buy this car? I don't really care about it being new--I'm willing to wait a couple years to get a used model. So is two years out okay? Three? How much longer do I have to wait?

Hell, am I nuts for even looking at cars when my car is currently (fingers crossed) running just fine?

mskyle

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2016, 07:47:52 AM »
In my experience, a two- or three-year-old small economy-ish car is not that much cheaper than a brand new one. Why? Because people who buy a Civic (even a new one) are relatively frugal people who don't trade in their car every two years. You can buy a two-year-old Lexus or Acura at a much bigger discount, because people who like to drive new luxury cars like to have a NEW luxury car.

That said, I'm sure some people are leasing Honda Fits; looks like the standard promotional lease is a three-year lease. So in three years those leases will be up; that might be a good time. But look at the price of a 2013 Civic today in your market, compared to what it cost new... that will give you a good idea of what the price of a 2016 will cost in three years.

Jack

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2016, 07:49:15 AM »
The best time to buy a 2016 Civic is about 10 years from now. (Note: I do a lot of maintenance myself and thus my preferences skew older than most.)

MudDuck

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2016, 07:53:16 AM »
2020-ish. Maybe 2018, if you're fancy.


jda1984

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2016, 08:08:17 AM »
I would say 4-5 years at least.  3 years is a minimum due to common lease terms.

Regarding the Focus, we had one (first model year, 2000) that ran well for a long time.  We sold it when we outgrew it (couldn't fit 3 car seats and kids stuff in it with two adults anymore!).  I did both the front and back brakes on it.  The rear brakes were a bit of a challenge reassembling, so if you're not super handy and it's the rear that needs work, I'd take it in.  If it's the front, it's pretty easy/quick.  You'll need a jack, a ratchet, and I think a star/torx bit to remove the calipers.  You'll also need a large clamp to depress the cylinder so the new pads will fit over the (new) rotors.  Just take it slow and open the brake fluid resevoir and you should be fine.

Rotors (for the 2000 anyway) were pretty cheap and not too thick so it might not be worth resurfacing them and just replacing them.  Pads vary in quality and cost, but you should be able to find a set of reasonable quality for ~$50, rotors are probably about $40-50 each.  I could do front brakes in about an hour.

I guess all this to say that you should be able to get another 5+ years out of that Focus for not a lot of money.  Our 2000 motor ran great (we sold it with about 150,000 on the clock) and the tranny was fine too.  Learn a few skills and know when you're likely to get over your head and you can make smarter decisions on how to maintain your vehicle.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2016, 08:25:30 AM »
Hell, am I nuts for even looking at cars when my car is currently (fingers crossed) running just fine?

Yes. Get a hobby that doesn't involve looking at cars and forget about it.

Seriously, it's just a car. It'll make you happy for a few weeks and then you'll be back to the routine and wanting something else. As someone who recently unloaded a fancypants German luxo barge, I certainly understand car lust. But, I've also learned the hard way that the desire for something is often extinguished upon possessing it.

Besides, you should be optimizing your life so that you no longer need a car anyway.

Parizade

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2016, 08:33:35 AM »
You haven't mentioned anywhere (unless I missed it) if buying a new car would require going into debt. Since you are lamenting the money spent on repairs I can't help but wonder where the money for a new car would come from? Are you carrying any other debt already?

If you don't have any debt, if your emergency savings fund is healthy, and you have cash on hand to buy a newer car, go for it. But if you have to trade your financial security for the newer car, run away. Run away fast.

Clean Shaven

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 08:40:49 AM »


In my experience, a two- or three-year-old small economy-ish car is not that much cheaper than a brand new one. Why? Because people who buy a Civic (even a new one) are relatively frugal people who don't trade in their car every two years. You can buy a two-year-old Lexus or Acura at a much bigger discount, because people who like to drive new luxury cars like to have a NEW luxury car.

That said, I'm sure some people are leasing Honda Fits; looks like the standard promotional lease is a three-year lease. So in three years those leases will be up; that might be a good time. But look at the price of a 2013 Civic today in your market, compared to what it cost new... that will give you a good idea of what the price of a 2016 will cost in three years.

X2.

If you have decided that the Focus needs replacement (i.e. not debating the merits of repairs right now ), have you considered a used Acura ILX? Might be cheaper than a new Civic, should be nicer.

neo von retorch

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2016, 08:42:13 AM »
I did the brake pads and rotors on my wife's Corolla for $120... they'll last her 60k miles. That doesn't seem like a big expense to me! That's one of the easier things you can do on a modern car. (On older cars/sometimes the rust makes getting those rotors off a pain but you can actually use a bolt to get it to break loose, so it's really not that bad!)

  • Jack up car (brace it safely!)
  • Remove tire lug nuts
  • Remove 4 bolts per tire to release calipers
  • Remove pads and if replacing rotors, remove those
  • Put everything back together!

Seriously you can do it.

v8rx7guy

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2016, 08:52:45 AM »
I'm 28 and have had only two cars in my life: a 2001 Nissan Maxima (which I drove from about 2004 to 2007) and a 2008 Ford Focus (2007 to present). I paid off the Focus three years ago which is obviously great. It has about 86,000 miles, but unfortunately is already requiring a little bit of money in repairs each year. I paid probably a total of $3,000 for repairs in the past two years. I'm 90% certain I'm going to have to get new breaks and other expensive parts within the next year or so.

I'm hoping my car lasts for another couple years, but I'm not sure I'm willing to pony up for another huge engine/parts repair any time soon.

Which brings me to wanting a Civic. Most people have always wanted a BMW or Mercedes...I've basically wanted a Civic since I was 16. Unfortunately my older brother worked at car dealerships for both of my previous car purchases and thus I ended up with a Nissan and Focus.

Now, why a 2016 model? Well, Honda basically completely re-did the Civic's exterior and interior this year (not that I pay any attention to cars on a year to year basis, but I just found out from this review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFYevVhC5sg) and it looks very, very sharp. The LX retails for about $19,000.

So, when would be the best time to buy this car? I don't really care about it being new--I'm willing to wait a couple years to get a used model. So is two years out okay? Three? How much longer do I have to wait?

Hell, am I nuts for even looking at cars when my car is currently (fingers crossed) running just fine?

As a car enthusiast, I can appreciate this.  However, I would wait 2-3 years.  The car will be significantly cheaper, and the first year of any new model seems to always have some "issue" that is corrected the 2nd year.  Seems like 1st year models are often undesirable for sporty cars for this reason.  Wait it out and let someone else take the brunt of the deprecciation.  Save up the cash in the meantime!

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2016, 08:55:45 AM »
You haven't mentioned anywhere (unless I missed it) if buying a new car would require going into debt. Since you are lamenting the money spent on repairs I can't help but wonder where the money for a new car would come from? Are you carrying any other debt already?

If you don't have any debt, if your emergency savings fund is healthy, and you have cash on hand to buy a newer car, go for it. But if you have to trade your financial security for the newer car, run away. Run away fast.

I do have student loan debt, but I'm managing that just fine.

I have a a high enough credit score that I think I'd get 0% financing (or close), which is basically free money. I'd intend to keep the car for at least ten years, so I think it would be good value for my money.

neo von retorch

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 09:00:13 AM »
Sometimes I do have a contrarian view from MMM (and most forum members) when it comes to cars.

If you buy a really good (even new) car and hold onto it for a very long time, it does not have to significantly impact your FIRE. Obviously leasing a car or buying a new car ("upgrading") every 3-5 years is different. I once purchased a 2007 Honda Fit ($15.7k) brand new. Should have kept that thing forever, but I was less wise, and I sold it after 4 years for $11k. So it costs me about $5k or $1125/year in depreciation. It does not have to be a huge expense - done right it's a very, very distance third behind housing and food. I'm sure I'll get gang-face-punched for suggesting that it might not be the most awful decision of your life.

But... you better not have any non-mortgage debt... and you better fully understand how this will affect your FIRE date. And you better not pay for oil changes and maintenance! You'll love to work on the car you've wanted since you were 16. Learn to do it from the beginning, do it right, and know your car is being maintained as best as it can be!

dycker1978

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 09:03:05 AM »
You haven't mentioned anywhere (unless I missed it) if buying a new car would require going into debt. Since you are lamenting the money spent on repairs I can't help but wonder where the money for a new car would come from? Are you carrying any other debt already?

If you don't have any debt, if your emergency savings fund is healthy, and you have cash on hand to buy a newer car, go for it. But if you have to trade your financial security for the newer car, run away. Run away fast.

I do have student loan debt, but I'm managing that just fine.

I have a a high enough credit score that I think I'd get 0% financing (or close), which is basically free money. I'd intend to keep the car for at least ten years, so I think it would be good value for my money.

I just did a quick calculation at 1.9%.  That would cost you about $350 a month for 5 years.  I think this is a BAD idea.  I second the wait two or three years at least, save up the cash and let someone else pay for the bulk of the depreciation.

neo von retorch

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 09:06:05 AM »
Oh yeah, also calculate the 5 and 10 year total cost in insurance increases! Insurance can be a big one. Especially if you can have a 5 year old car and just go without collision, compared to a brand new car with 5 years of loan time where you HAVE to have collision.

I have amazing credit and somehow my insurance is super cheap even when I have collision, so it wasn't a huge problem with the Fit (or the 350Z I drive on the side now...)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 09:27:35 AM by neogodless »

Gone Fishing

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 09:20:12 AM »
I did the brake pads and rotors on my wife's Corolla for $120... they'll last her 60k miles. That doesn't seem like a big expense to me! That's one of the easier things you can do on a modern car. (On older cars/sometimes the rust makes getting those rotors off a pain but you can actually use a bolt to get it to break loose, so it's really not that bad!)

  • Jack up car (brace it safely!)
  • Remove tire lug nuts
  • Remove 4 bolts per tire to release calipers
  • Remove pads and if replacing rotors, remove those
  • Put everything back together!

Seriously you can do it.

+1

Even easier and cheaper if your rotors are okay.  I think I paid around $25 for pads last time.  Watch YouTube.

frugaliknowit

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2016, 09:39:19 AM »
Fagetaboudit!  Run the Focus to the ground.

boarder42

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2016, 09:44:32 AM »
dude you dont need a 2016 car.  and if you havent noticed you cant afford it since you're taking out a 5 year loan on it.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2016, 09:50:42 AM »
1)  You're at a time in the car's life when a lot of repairs/maintenance coincide.  Lots of people want to get rid of cars around 100k miles.  The truth is, once you get past this hump, the car will require very little maintenance for the next several years.
2)  It sounds like you don't have a whole lot of experience doing your own maintenance.  The payback for doing your own maintenance is incredible, and only increases as you get more experienced.  I highly recommend learning to do your own maintenance work.

Eric

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2016, 10:22:52 AM »

I do have student loan debt, but I'm managing that just fine.

I have a a high enough credit score that I think I'd get 0% financing (or close), which is basically free money. I'd intend to keep the car for at least ten years, so I think it would be good value for my money.

Just go ahead and get it over with.  Change your name to ReadySetComsumerSucka and join the rest of the new car buying crowd.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2016, 12:26:54 PM »
The best time to buy a 2016 Civic is about 10 years from now. (Note: I do a lot of maintenance myself and thus my preferences skew older than most.)

+1.  Buy a 2016 in 8 to 10 years when it costs 6 or 7k and will still look awesome and be very low maintenance for another 10 years.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2016, 12:36:10 PM »
The best time to buy a 2016 Civic is about 10 years from now. (Note: I do a lot of maintenance myself and thus my preferences skew older than most.)

+1.  Buy a 2016 in 8 to 10 years when it costs 6 or 7k and will still look awesome and be very low maintenance for another 10 years.

Ten whole years? Sigh. I plan to probably wait a while, but I'd say 5-6 years tops before my car starts becoming cost-prohibitive.

Oh yeah, also calculate the 5 and 10 year total cost in insurance increases! Insurance can be a big one. Especially if you can have a 5 year old car and just go without collision, compared to a brand new car with 5 years of loan time where you HAVE to have collision.

I have amazing credit and somehow my insurance is super cheap even when I have collision, so it wasn't a huge problem with the Fit (or the 350Z I drive on the side now...)

Good point about insurance. I only pay $65/month now and that's a lot cheaper than my girlfriend's Rav 4.

dude you dont need a 2016 car.  and if you havent noticed you cant afford it since you're taking out a 5 year loan on it.

I could go on about this, but I think this is a huge fallacy on this forum. The hyper debt-aversion ignores common sense math (even if I had the money to pay it in cash, it's mathematically better to finance it).

Just go ahead and get it over with.  Change your name to ReadySetComsumerSucka and join the rest of the new car buying crowd.

Figured it wouldn't take long for a personal attack that didn't answer the question. Heaven forbid I've driven older cars my whole life and--GASP--I'm looking at a car that will cost $14,000 after trade-in.

JimLahey

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2016, 12:47:44 PM »
The 2016 Civic will also need new breaks at some point. $3000 over two years isn't that  terrible. That's $125/month. That's less than what the payment on the new Civic would probably be. Watch a YouTube video on changing your breaks and do it yourself or shop around. New breaks should be factored into your budget for car expenses, it's not an unforeseen expense. I drive an 06' Taurus with around 115K miles. I look at new cars all the time online, for down the road when mine dies.

Vanguards and Lentils

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 12:53:44 PM »
As someone with no car-buying experience at all, it strikes me as a bad idea to buy ANY car new, and more so if you have fixated on one specific model because it's your "dream" car. I don't like to have that kind of inflexibility when I'm making any kind of purchase.

Also, I wouldn't focus on the seemingly smaller(?) number $14000, because your current car is an asset. The real number is whatever obscene amount you'd end up paying.

OvertheRainbow

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 12:54:08 PM »
I am not totally against buying brand new if you can buy it outright and you plan to keep it until it dies on the side of the road.

Since that doesn't seem to be the case here, I would wait at least three years before buying one. I have an Accord that is 6.5years old and has over 111k miles on it and it runs really well.

neo von retorch

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 12:54:25 PM »
Brakes.

Ok, anyway, don't ever think of the price of something "after trade-in!" (Gee I sold a $400k house, this $600k house is only $200k after trade-in. I sold a $25k pick-up truck. This brand new car is FREE! Selling your old car regains you the value of that car. From there... your options are used car vs new car. Think about those prices more carefully. Ignore trade-in "cost." (In my opinion.)

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 12:57:15 PM »
The 2016 Civic will also need new breaks at some point. $3000 over two years isn't that  terrible. That's $125/month. That's less than what the payment on the new Civic would probably be. Watch a YouTube video on changing your breaks and do it yourself or shop around. New breaks should be factored into your budget for car expenses, it's not an unforeseen expense. I drive an 06' Taurus with around 115K miles. I look at new cars all the time online, for down the road when mine dies.

That's basically what I'm doing as well. My repairs weren't your average "replace the belt" or simple stuff like that. My car has significant problems while it's in idle, and those cause the engine to almost fight itself. For instance, when I'm sitting at a red light, my car rattles and rattles, the engine goes between 300 and 700 RPMs, etc. Last year it flat out stalled and died in the middle of the busiest four lane street in town and I had to push it into a gas station.

Like I said, I've paid $3,000 over the last two years to get that fixed. And every time it gets fixed, the problem reappears within nine months or so. It's an ongoing problem that is driving me insane.

Add that to the repairs I'm going to have to make at 100k miles, as well as new brakes and all that, and I'm looking at putting maybe $5-6k into a car that isn't even worth that much.

Now, as to your suggestion about changing brakes, call me crazy, but I'm a little hesitant to do something that serious on my own just after watching some YouTube videos.

Again, though, like you, I'm just looking right now.

neo von retorch

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 01:13:33 PM »
Are brakes important? Even serious? Sure. But the work isn't that serious. I'd watch a YouTube video before deciding, too. For the most part, you are removing bolts and putting them back. You also want to use brake cleaner where needed, and ample brake grease on the backs of the pads which reduces vibrations/squealing and can reduce brake dust. About the only "wiggle" room is replacing the little clamped in squealers. If you somehow really mess that up, you'll grind through the whole new set of brake pads (after 60k miles of driving) without being alerted and dig into your rotors. But since you're replacing these things yourself, you'll spend $40/rotor instead of $150 at a dealer garage. You don't have to unplug/touch brake lines or fluids at all, in most cases. So you aren't going to be "suddenly without brakes" next time you drive. Remember, mechanics are humans, too! They learned. Yes, they have more experience, more variety of experience, but they are not superhuman.

As for the engine stuff, I was surprised to find (on a Fit forum) the answers to all my problems. I had some severe hesitation during idle and while trying to press the gas any more than a little. The forum users said "ignition coils." It was a little scary to spend $50 x 4 for these, but it worked like a charm. Smooth once more, and gas mileage restored! A garage will often try several things, being just as human as you (but needing to make money), like "unnecessary" fuel system cleanses. Doing it myself, I got brand new parts that will last me a good 80k+ so even if it wasn't right, I still feel good about. (It being right feels extra good!)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:35:11 PM by neogodless »

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 01:29:09 PM »
Now, as to your suggestion about changing brakes, call me crazy, but I'm a little hesitant to do something that serious on my own just after watching some YouTube videos.

Calling you crazy for thinking that would be insulting you. I think that's a fairly normal response.

What would be not insulting you is to encourage you that it's really not that hard and if you ask a few questions on here many people will help you.

Check out this thread -

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/first-oil-change-complete!/


I promise, you can do your brakes yourself. It's pretty easy.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 01:48:17 PM »
Just go ahead and get it over with.  Change your name to ReadySetComsumerSucka and join the rest of the new car buying crowd.

Figured it wouldn't take long for a personal attack that didn't answer the question. Heaven forbid I've driven older cars my whole life and--GASP--I'm looking at a car that will cost $14,000 after trade-in.

Erik is kindly delivering a face-punch, something that we all need from time to time. Keep in mind you are asking this question on an MMM forum, the place where cars are little more than black holes that you pour money into to make yourself soft, lazy, and fat.

I'm really surprised more people haven't responded in a similar fashion given that you're enthralled with a shiny (fairly) new consumerist thing that you will take on debt to acquire it when you already have existing debt with a student loan.

Your current car is fine and will be for some time. If you're still enthralled with the 2016 Civic in five years and you've paid off your student loans, then it will be a decent buy.

Tetsuya Hondo

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 01:54:28 PM »
I'm looking at a car that will cost $14,000 after trade-in.

And one more thing while I've got my soapbox out. You're engaging in magical thinking here. If you're buying new, you will pay more than you expect with taxes, administrative fees, licensing, options, dealer dog grooming fees, filing fees, etc. And whatever you think you'll get for your trade-in, cut it in half and deduct a grand.

(I'm only picking on you because you sound like me at your age. I had to have the new VW and I told myself I would keep it for years. Then I had to have the new Acura. Then the new Audi. I wish someone would have given me the face punch back then. It took me a while to realize that cars are appliances and there are much, much better things to spend money on.)

Tester

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 01:55:57 PM »
My car has significant problems while it's in idle, and those cause the engine to almost fight itself. For instance, when I'm sitting at a red light, my car rattles and rattles, the engine goes between 300 and 700 RPMs, etc. Last year it flat out stalled and died in the middle of the busiest four lane street in town and I had to push it into a gas station.

Like I said, I've paid $3,000 over the last two years to get that fixed. And every time it gets fixed, the problem reappears within nine months or so. It's an ongoing problem that is driving me insane.

For me what you say means the car is broken.
How does this work - you spend 3,000 USD to "fix" something but in 9 months the problem is back?
That means you either did not fix the root cause or here is something which causes it to come back.
Did you get a detailed explanation of what is happening and what is causing the problem?

I was present when the owner of the repair shop I was using explained a customer why the car broke, why the owner driving it after the engine light went on made the problem worse, why this is happening (the manufacturer trying to solve one problem chose a solution which led to this other type of issue- oil pump drive changed from noisy chain to silent but problematic "hex stick in a hole") and that the proposed solution is to go back to the previous manufacturer solution - which meant more noise from the engine but guaranteed no more problems with the oil pump stopping working.
If I spend 3,000 USD on a "fix" and the problem comes back after 9 months I expect at least the second time to really understand what and why is happening to be able to take an informed decision.
After you get that information you can better decide if you need another car now or if you can really fix yours for a long time.

boarder42

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 02:37:15 PM »
The 2016 Civic will also need new breaks at some point. $3000 over two years isn't that  terrible. That's $125/month. That's less than what the payment on the new Civic would probably be. Watch a YouTube video on changing your breaks and do it yourself or shop around. New breaks should be factored into your budget for car expenses, it's not an unforeseen expense. I drive an 06' Taurus with around 115K miles. I look at new cars all the time online, for down the road when mine dies.

That's basically what I'm doing as well. My repairs weren't your average "replace the belt" or simple stuff like that. My car has significant problems while it's in idle, and those cause the engine to almost fight itself. For instance, when I'm sitting at a red light, my car rattles and rattles, the engine goes between 300 and 700 RPMs, etc. Last year it flat out stalled and died in the middle of the busiest four lane street in town and I had to push it into a gas station.

Like I said, I've paid $3,000 over the last two years to get that fixed. And every time it gets fixed, the problem reappears within nine months or so. It's an ongoing problem that is driving me insane.

Add that to the repairs I'm going to have to make at 100k miles, as well as new brakes and all that, and I'm looking at putting maybe $5-6k into a car that isn't even worth that much.

Now, as to your suggestion about changing brakes, call me crazy, but I'm a little hesitant to do something that serious on my own just after watching some YouTube videos.

Again, though, like you, I'm just looking right now.

the stalling and rattling is an easy fix.  its a valve that can be replaced easily ford started using them in 2009 i just replaced the one on my wifes car it was 30 bucks from amazon and 15 minutes of my time.  You're not even trying to fix your car.  you're making excuses b/c you want a new one.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 02:53:29 PM »
Just go ahead and get it over with.  Change your name to ReadySetComsumerSucka and join the rest of the new car buying crowd.

Figured it wouldn't take long for a personal attack that didn't answer the question. Heaven forbid I've driven older cars my whole life and--GASP--I'm looking at a car that will cost $14,000 after trade-in.

I thought it answered the question perfectly.  Did you just expect everyone to say "Yeah RSM, you totally deserve this new car because you work so hard and you're only somewhat in debt"?

If you think that spending an additional $14k on a depreciating asset while you're already in debt is no big deal, then you may want to re-think what you're doing hanging around on an early retirement forum.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings as well.  Sometimes, as they say, the truth hurts.


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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 03:01:08 PM »
You already drive a 2008?  And it only has 86,000 miles on it?  Great news, by the time you'll be ready for a 2016 Civic, they'll be 8-10 years old!  Shouldn't be too expensive at that point at all.  And a Honda should last you a long time (statistically longer life expectancy than the Ford).  You'll probably be able to only worry about replacing that 2016 Civic around 2034-2036 after driving it for ten years.

I'm probably going to be replacing my '99 (~177k miles) soon due to slow-but-hilariously-exponential-decline-of-everything-except-the-radio, and it'll likely be with a '05~'08 car with around 80~120k miles on it if I get lucky.  You're already on the other side of my "upgrade."  Luckily our other car ('92 with 193k miles) should survive another year or two.

Good point about insurance. I only pay $65/month now and that's a lot cheaper than my girlfriend's Rav 4.
I don't know where you are geographically (has a lot to do with insurance costs), but I pay very slightly more than that ($72/mo I believe) for two cars and two drivers, and we're only 24 and 23.  Your cost of insurance might already be relatively low, but that would blow up substantially with a new car (and you go the finance route, you'll have to get full coverage, which adds on a lot.  I have a 27 year old friend paying over $100/mo for full coverage on a 2011 Kia!).

Quote
dude you dont need a 2016 car.  and if you havent noticed you cant afford it since you're taking out a 5 year loan on it.

I could go on about this, but I think this is a huge fallacy on this forum. The hyper debt-aversion ignores common sense math (even if I had the money to pay it in cash, it's mathematically better to finance it).
But you don't have the money to pay in cash.  That means it would represent a financial risk and opportunity cost.  The risk means you don't have the net worth to support the car possibly blowing up into a million pieces, which means you need to buy additional insurance to cover that, which makes it more expensive.

Even if you could pay in cash, from the sounds of things, your net worth (liquid net worth at a minimum) is pretty low, so tying up that much of your cash in a depreciating asset that doesn't make a significant upgrade to your life (you already have a car!) doesn't sound like a very good deal at all.

Yes, some people around here I'd argue are debt-adverse to a fault.  Debt can be a great tool to help you get ahead in life.  You financed a degree of some sort.  Likely that will prove long-term to have been worth it: very positive return on investment if done right.  Sometimes going into debt makes sense to start a business; the potential upside can be very high if you know what you're doing.  Real estate investors use debt all the time.  Financing a house to live in can also be productive.

But all of those things can go very south if you leverage the wrong opportunity with debt.  Your degree might not get you where you think it will pay-wise, your business might tank a year in, your real estate investments might go bad and lose six-figures overnight, your house might turn out to be on a sinkhole infested with mutant fruit-worshiping baboons.  The potential upside has to be valuable enough (and likely enough) to be worth that risk!

Using "debt isn't always bad" (which I do agree with) to justify financing a new car without a damn good reason is fallacious.  A car rental company or a taxi company probably buys new cars with debt every day.  But that's a calculated investment that uses leverage intelligently to accelerate business growth and wealth creation.  You're not doing that.

Quote
Just go ahead and get it over with.  Change your name to ReadySetComsumerSucka and join the rest of the new car buying crowd.

Figured it wouldn't take long for a personal attack that didn't answer the question. Heaven forbid I've driven older cars my whole life and--GASP--I'm looking at a car that will cost $14,000 after trade-in.
I'm 28 and have had only two cars in my life: a 2001 Nissan Maxima (which I drove from about 2004 to 2007) and a 2008 Ford Focus (2007 to present).
This does not compute.  You've driven a three year old car until it was six years old, and a brand new car until it's eight years old (so far).  Where are the "older cars" in this story?

OP, I really hope you don't think we're ganging up on you and attacking you.  We're trying to help you.  Cars are an area where it's really easy to talk yourself in making irrational decisions that end up costing you thousands.  And every car decision cascades through more decisions the rest of your life, for better or worse.  Foolishly buying more car than you need is far more boat-anchor-on-finances life-damaging than say, buying a new $2 bottle of ketchup every day instead of refrigerating the first one after opening.  But you'd probably call that being fiscally irresponsible.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 03:03:37 PM by ketchup »

boarder42

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 05:35:01 PM »
I'm one of the least debt averse people on this forum I argue keeping car loans and mortgages when banks are giving away money. BUT and its a BIG BUT

1. The purchase has to make sense. This doesn't. Buying a new car rarely does
2. When we're talking cars you should be able to pay cash for it and opt for the loan due to leaving your money in the market to not claim capital gains and rates are low
3. You have student loans the car you currently own is too new for you.
4.  You don't understand what this forum is about if your answer to a car issue that's very simple to fix is to buy a brand new car.

I bet you have a check engine light that comes on based on what you've said your issues are.

Go to O'Reillys they'll put a computer on it for free. Then take the codes to Google then watch YouTube then fix your problem

Then sell your car and but something cheaper older and more reliable and pay off your loans

Retire-Canada

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 06:26:05 PM »
It has about 86,000 miles, but unfortunately is already requiring a little bit of money in repairs each year. I paid probably a total of $3,000 for repairs in the past two years. I'm 90% certain I'm going to have to get new breaks and other expensive parts within the next year or so.

Hell, am I nuts for even looking at cars when my car is currently (fingers crossed) running just fine?
[/quote]

1. yes you are nuts
2. 86K miles is low mileage still
3. when brakes need fixing then fix them...that's not some outrageous or unusual vehicle expense.

Save your money and invest it. You have better things to do with it then get a new car when you have a fine 7yr old car.

When the current car is 10-11yrs old start saving for your next car so you can pay cash for it. I promise you the 2025 Civic will be even more bad ass then the 2016 one. ;)

tobitonic

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 06:37:16 PM »
If you're wanting to sell your current ride at 86k, there's no way you're going to hold on to the Civic for 10 years, no matter how much you currently think it's your dream car.

I agree with lots of folks in that you'd be better off learning to DIY and driving what you have until it costs more to maintain than it's worth.

And yes, every car will need new brakes eventually. Even if you don't DIY them, they're still much cheaper than switching vehicles.

tobitonic

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 06:42:31 PM »
dude you dont need a 2016 car.  and if you havent noticed you cant afford it since you're taking out a 5 year loan on it.

I could go on about this, but I think this is a huge fallacy on this forum. The hyper debt-aversion ignores common sense math (even if I had the money to pay it in cash, it's mathematically better to finance it).

It's also mathematically better to pay off your student loans unless you've got an equivalent amount of money generating interest at a higher rate than your loans.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2016, 06:52:01 PM »
I'm not impressed with Ford quality, and your Focus might not be one of the better examples of a mediocre at best car.  However, you really are not in a position where it makes sense to buy a new car.  In your shoes, I would tough it out while getting everything else paid off. 

FYI, Hondas are not as reliable as they once were.  Build quality has deteriorated significantly.  It's also a bad time to buy a new car of any kind, because most incentives have been cut way back.  You never see loss leaders from Toyota or Honda dealers now, because they are selling everything the manufactures produce at a rapid pace.  To do this, they are pushing a lot of inventory out to sub-prime borrowers.  Also pushing leasing.  Fortunately, the market is cyclical, and when demand drops, incentives will return.  There will be a lot of excess used inventory as well, and the market will favor buyers.

I would grit my teeth, keep the car in safe operating condition, and think about buying when the car market and your financial position are more favorable.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2016, 06:58:55 PM »
To answer you question, in 2015, September was a great month to buy a Honda Civic, Mazda 3, or Hyundai Elantra. All three were about 3k below msrp. So 16-17k for the models not overloaded with extra options.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2016, 07:24:50 PM »
Looks great, but 27K for the touring, thats close to entry luxury level pricing.  Might even be able to get a new Tesla for that after incentives. 

Guava

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2016, 07:48:14 PM »
The 2016 Civic will also need new breaks at some point. $3000 over two years isn't that  terrible. That's $125/month. That's less than what the payment on the new Civic would probably be. Watch a YouTube video on changing your breaks and do it yourself or shop around. New breaks should be factored into your budget for car expenses, it's not an unforeseen expense. I drive an 06' Taurus with around 115K miles. I look at new cars all the time online, for down the road when mine dies.

That's basically what I'm doing as well. My repairs weren't your average "replace the belt" or simple stuff like that. My car has significant problems while it's in idle, and those cause the engine to almost fight itself. For instance, when I'm sitting at a red light, my car rattles and rattles, the engine goes between 300 and 700 RPMs, etc. Last year it flat out stalled and died in the middle of the busiest four lane street in town and I had to push it into a gas station.

Like I said, I've paid $3,000 over the last two years to get that fixed. And every time it gets fixed, the problem reappears within nine months or so. It's an ongoing problem that is driving me insane.

Add that to the repairs I'm going to have to make at 100k miles, as well as new brakes and all that, and I'm looking at putting maybe $5-6k into a car that isn't even worth that much.

Now, as to your suggestion about changing brakes, call me crazy, but I'm a little hesitant to do something that serious on my own just after watching some YouTube videos.

Again, though, like you, I'm just looking right now.

the stalling and rattling is an easy fix.  its a valve that can be replaced easily ford started using them in 2009 i just replaced the one on my wifes car it was 30 bucks from amazon and 15 minutes of my time.  You're not even trying to fix your car.  you're making excuses b/c you want a new one.

Boarder42, what valve is this? My 2008 focus also rattles and vibrates terribly when idling.

With This Herring

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2016, 03:50:54 PM »
*snip*

I have a a high enough credit score that I think I'd get 0% financing (or close), which is basically free money. I'd intend to keep the car for at least ten years, so I think it would be good value for my money.

I'm going to let you in on a secret of accountants and car finance companies:

There is no such thing as a zero interest rate on a consumer loan*.  Any organization offering a 0% loan on purchase to a consumer or another business has built into the purchase price the interest rate it needs to make financing a financially sound option.  TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  You will not get something for nothing.  If CarCo has a cost for a car of $500 and wants to sell it for $600, Carco will advertise "$650 car at 0% APR for five years if you have good credit!  What a baaargaaain!"  Carco gets that $50 over its desired car price as interest on the five-year note for buyers with good credit.  Bad credit buyers will pay that $50 plus whatever the stated rate is for bad credit and will think they are getting a decent rate.  Cash buyers will find it easier to bargain away that $50 once they mention they are paying cash.

This is such a big deal that there is a rule for US accounting (GAAP) that says, for any big-stuff-buying loans that are recorded on your books, you can't say in your financials that the loan is at zero percent.  You have to figure out, based on a variety of factors, what the adjusted price of the item purchased/sold must be to get a reasonable interest rate.

*Possibly this might change if the US enters a time of deflation, but I think it unlikely.

tl;dr: 0% interest is a lie, and it is not really free money.

Good point about insurance. I only pay $65/month now and that's a lot cheaper than my girlfriend's Rav 4.

If you are currently paying monthly (instead of just giving us the per-month cost) you should see if your insurer offers a discount for paying the entire policy amount in full at the six-month renewal.  I believe my discount is around $40.

boarder42

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2016, 04:01:38 PM »
The 2016 Civic will also need new breaks at some point. $3000 over two years isn't that  terrible. That's $125/month. That's less than what the payment on the new Civic would probably be. Watch a YouTube video on changing your breaks and do it yourself or shop around. New breaks should be factored into your budget for car expenses, it's not an unforeseen expense. I drive an 06' Taurus with around 115K miles. I look at new cars all the time online, for down the road when mine dies.

That's basically what I'm doing as well. My repairs weren't your average "replace the belt" or simple stuff like that. My car has significant problems while it's in idle, and those cause the engine to almost fight itself. For instance, when I'm sitting at a red light, my car rattles and rattles, the engine goes between 300 and 700 RPMs, etc. Last year it flat out stalled and died in the middle of the busiest four lane street in town and I had to push it into a gas station.

Like I said, I've paid $3,000 over the last two years to get that fixed. And every time it gets fixed, the problem reappears within nine months or so. It's an ongoing problem that is driving me insane.

Add that to the repairs I'm going to have to make at 100k miles, as well as new brakes and all that, and I'm looking at putting maybe $5-6k into a car that isn't even worth that much.

Now, as to your suggestion about changing brakes, call me crazy, but I'm a little hesitant to do something that serious on my own just after watching some YouTube videos.

Again, though, like you, I'm just looking right now.

the stalling and rattling is an easy fix.  its a valve that can be replaced easily ford started using them in 2009 i just replaced the one on my wifes car it was 30 bucks from amazon and 15 minutes of my time.  You're not even trying to fix your car.  you're making excuses b/c you want a new one.

Boarder42, what valve is this? My 2008 focus also rattles and vibrates terribly when idling.

Ford didn't start using them til 2009. But its this valve.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00GHT8UNC/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's a purge valve and its actually really simple to diagnose. You disconnect the power and the tube connected to it and start the car. If you feel it sucking air when you put your finger over it, it is bad.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2016, 07:37:57 AM »
*snip*

I have a a high enough credit score that I think I'd get 0% financing (or close), which is basically free money. I'd intend to keep the car for at least ten years, so I think it would be good value for my money.

I'm going to let you in on a secret of accountants and car finance companies:

There is no such thing as a zero interest rate on a consumer loan*.  Any organization offering a 0% loan on purchase to a consumer or another business has built into the purchase price the interest rate it needs to make financing a financially sound option.  TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  You will not get something for nothing.  If CarCo has a cost for a car of $500 and wants to sell it for $600, Carco will advertise "$650 car at 0% APR for five years if you have good credit!  What a baaargaaain!"  Carco gets that $50 over its desired car price as interest on the five-year note for buyers with good credit.  Bad credit buyers will pay that $50 plus whatever the stated rate is for bad credit and will think they are getting a decent rate.  Cash buyers will find it easier to bargain away that $50 once they mention they are paying cash.

This is such a big deal that there is a rule for US accounting (GAAP) that says, for any big-stuff-buying loans that are recorded on your books, you can't say in your financials that the loan is at zero percent.  You have to figure out, based on a variety of factors, what the adjusted price of the item purchased/sold must be to get a reasonable interest rate.

*Possibly this might change if the US enters a time of deflation, but I think it unlikely.

tl;dr: 0% interest is a lie, and it is not really free money.

Good point about insurance. I only pay $65/month now and that's a lot cheaper than my girlfriend's Rav 4.

If you are currently paying monthly (instead of just giving us the per-month cost) you should see if your insurer offers a discount for paying the entire policy amount in full at the six-month renewal.  I believe my discount is around $40.

Ah, so car dealers use the same thing that Quicken Loans does when it advertises "No PMI!!!" Makes sense. Got it.

Anyway, I've had time to think about it over the weekend and concluded that I'm not going to buy a new car any time soon. I think I'm going to put a certain amount of money in a savings account per month so that when the time comes, I can pay for a new car in cash.

In that regard, I'm still leaning toward buying a 2016 Civic. I max my 401k ($18,000), live in an 1100 square foot home in LCOL area (NE Ohio), spend less than $40/week on groceries, haven't had a car payment in four years, use the local park rather than have a gym membership, don't splurge money on expensive trips or big purchases (with few exceptions), etc.

I could be doing better (cut cable, reduce cell phone plan, bike to work maybe), but I'm doing a lot of BIG things right and feel okay buying a nice car, but only when I need one.

For those that think this might bleed over into more luxury autos when I'm older, I'd say probably not. My parents always drove Mercedes and super nice cars and are now each going to have to work until they're 70. I saw that first hand and won't make that mistake.

But a Civic? Which I'll keep and take care of for 10, hopefully 15 or 20 years? I still think it's worth it.

boarder42

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2016, 07:48:26 AM »
why even make this post then?  Did you want confirmation from a FIRE forum that buying a new car made sense.  Its not gonna happen here.

I own a boat pretty unMustachian.  But i dont post on here expecting people to support my decision.  I do everything as frugally as i can with the boat but its still a boat. 

If you think getting the assurance of internet strangers will help you make a care purchase then you knew the answer before you posted this.  and why 2016 did they change the body in 2016.  if so in 4 years get a 2016 - still newer than i would buy but you have to mold this lifestyle into your own. 

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2016, 07:59:08 AM »
I think your plan is sensible and the spending "education" from your parents is priceless.  The philosophy here is to spend consciously and reasonably on things that increase your happiness, not to avoid all spending.  You also have a family, and in your shoes large spending decisions are things I would discuss with the spouse before making the decisions.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2016, 08:11:35 AM »
why even make this post then?  Did you want confirmation from a FIRE forum that buying a new car made sense.  Its not gonna happen here.

I own a boat pretty unMustachian.  But i dont post on here expecting people to support my decision.  I do everything as frugally as i can with the boat but its still a boat. 

If you think getting the assurance of internet strangers will help you make a care purchase then you knew the answer before you posted this.  and why 2016 did they change the body in 2016.  if so in 4 years get a 2016 - still newer than i would buy but you have to mold this lifestyle into your own.

I think you need to save a little less and spend a little more on beer. Life is short. Calm down.

And to answer your question, I was looking for alternative views of looking at this purchase. I start threads on here and then let my GF read the entire thread and then we discuss all the points that were made. Off the top of my head, I've found out that the problem with my Focus is systemic (another Focus owner has the same problem), that I can repair the brakes and other parts on my own, that 0% financing is a myth, that Civics are very reliable and will last a long time if I follow the maintenance schedule, that paying cash truly is more optimal than a loan for various reasons, that my car might have another 65k miles on it, etc. Most importantly, this thread has drilled into my head that I need to keep my current car for as long as possible.

So I've learned a lot. I've also weighed the opinions of others and, despite the objections, still believe that I'm eventually going to buy a 2016 Civic when my car dies out. That might be a year from now, it might be five years from now. Couldn't tell you. Don't really care for now. But I still think it will be a sound purchase when the time comes.

Sorry if that gets you worked up.

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2016, 11:02:52 AM »
I think you need to save a little less and spend a little more on beer. Life is short. Calm down.

It doesn't matter if "life is short;" the issue is that a new car purchase is pretty much never on the "efficient frontier of happiness." In other words, instead of paying 100% of the price of a new car for 100% of the happiness provided by a new car, it makes much more sense to get (e.g.) a 3-year-old car for 75% of the price and 90% of the happiness.

The point is not to deprive yourself of the happiness of driving a nice car because of some kind of hair-shirt Puritan moralistic nonsense; the point is to maximize overall happiness -- considering not just driving, but everything else too -- by allocating your money efficiently. The dollars representing the price differential between the new and used Civics would provide more happiness being allocated somewhere else.

(Note: I used a 3-year-old vehicle in the above example, but IMO that's still too new. But my car is old enough for "hobby/antique" plates, so what do I know?)

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Re: Really, Really Want a 2016 Honda Civic...When's the Best Time to Buy?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2016, 02:14:56 PM »


In my experience, a two- or three-year-old small economy-ish car is not that much cheaper than a brand new one. Why? Because people who buy a Civic (even a new one) are relatively frugal people who don't trade in their car every two years. You can buy a two-year-old Lexus or Acura at a much bigger discount, because people who like to drive new luxury cars like to have a NEW luxury car.

That said, I'm sure some people are leasing Honda Fits; looks like the standard promotional lease is a three-year lease. So in three years those leases will be up; that might be a good time. But look at the price of a 2013 Civic today in your market, compared to what it cost new... that will give you a good idea of what the price of a 2016 will cost in three years.

X2.

If you have decided that the Focus needs replacement (i.e. not debating the merits of repairs right now ), have you considered a used Acura ILX? Might be cheaper than a new Civic, should be nicer.

Yeah, I keep thinking that we have a SWEET new Civic we bought when our last car was totaled.  But I guess it's a 2009.  Not that new!