Author Topic: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind  (Read 7168 times)

dfree86

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Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« on: July 26, 2014, 05:46:37 PM »
Hey Guys,

I'm new to the mustache crowd so I apologize if I gum up any of the protocols here. I think I've read enough of the site to know what it's all about and I'm really excited about making the shift toward more Mustachian principles. I'm gonna lay out my situation as best I can and then ask my questions at the end.

My wife and I just got married two months ago. We're 28 years old, have been together for a long time and we just returned from our honeymoon a few weeks ago. Now that we're back and settling in, we're like to adjust our finances to more Mustachian-style principles for the long haul. We live in New York City (Brooklyn) in a 2-BR apartment - more on that later.

Income: I'm a teacher at a private school here in the city. Between my salary and extra tutoring my annual salary is about $65,000 - $67,000 (gross). My wife work a fashion brand doing marketing and she makes about the same, right around $67,000.

TOTAL Annual Income: $120,000-$130,000 (gross)

Current expenses: Our apartment is in a 4-floor brownstone that my wife's father actually owns. As a result, she has no rent obligations but I pay $783/month in rent directly to her father, who is technically our landlord. That's a pittance compared to what the going rate is in the area, so we save money. Here are our other joint monthly expenses:

Rent: $783/month
Car insurance: $118.84/month
Renter's insurance: $53.17/month
Health insurance: $315/month
Monthly (Unlimited) Metro cards: $224 (2x $112)
Dental Insurance: $10/month
Digital Cable TV: $154/month
Electric: $60/month in winter, $100/month in summer
Gas: $20/month
Gym classes (my wife's): approx. $300/month
Netflix: $8/month
Charitable Donation: $22/month
Student Loans (mine only, my wife has none): $430/month

TOTAL Monthly Expenses: $2598.01


*NOTE: I've listed all of our joint expenses even though we're still at the point of paying certain things out of our personal checking accounts (Gym for her, Loans for me) rather than our joint checking account. We'll get to that later.

Assets:

USAA Checking Account (Mine): $14,483.35
Citibank Checking Account (Hers): $4,243.51
USAA Joint Checking Account (Ours): $30,000.00

USAA Savings Account (Mine, .20% APY): $20,049.51
Credit Union Savings Account (Hers, 1.1% APY): $12,464.65

TIAA-CREF 401k (Mine, I contribute 5% and my employee matches 10% for a total of 15%): $28,900.30
T. ROWE PRice 401k (hers, but she's not contributing at the moment. The matching is very small: 2-3% ): $3293.37

TOTAL Assets: $113,434.69

AVAILABLE Assets: (not in 401k): $81,241.02


Liabilities:

STUDENT LOANS
Unsubsidized Principal
$4,943.17 @ 2.080%
$19,585.29 @ 6.550%

Subsidized Principal
$7,200.61 @ 6.550%

CREDIT CARDS
No unpaid bills. I've been charging and paying off my CC bill in full every month since I was 19. My wife's the same, though she doesn't user her CC very often.

TOTAL Liabilities: $31,871.56

Specific Question(s):

1) Obviously, there's a bunch of adjusting that needs to go in with the above before we get really mustachey. I'm going to sell my car (which I never use, should get about $3000 for it). We're also going to cancel Cable and just keep Netflix. The big red flag is the student loans debt which I have been, until now, stupidly paying down with only minimum payments. That's the first thing to address of course. Now, I COULD pay it off in full by dipping into both our Joint Checking $ and my personal savings. But is that the most advisable thing? Or would it make more sense to pay off some of it and use some of that extra Savings/Checking money to invest in Vanguard, Roth IRA, etc? How do the interest % balance out? Obviously I want to get the "hair-on-fire" debt payed off ASAP but I'm wondering what the most sensible way to do it is.

2) We have quite a special NYC circumstance with the extremely low rent payment. In addition to that, my parents-in-law have made available to us the option of moving out of our apartment (in their building) and pocketing the full total of the rent money that would come from the tenant living here. Believe it or not, that's $3000/month. So we could move out to another apartment that has rent up to $3000 (but hopefully) less, live rent-free, and then pocket the difference. This feels like a no-brainer! But here's the kicker: We're also trying to get a little bit of independence from her parents who are generally pretty overbearing and might use something like this as leverage over our heads. How much is a dependency connection like that worth when the parents are very overbearing? Is it $3000/month?

3) Given my financial portrait above - what makes the most sense from an Investment standpoint? All I have at the moment is the 401ks. Mine is awesome with a 10% match for my 5% contribution, but my wife's is a pittance. I've been reading the MMM stuff on Vanguard funds and other things, but I was hoping to get some input about my specific situation here. What kind of investment profile what you suggest apart from the 401ks I'm already doing.

4) My wife's gym classes are our other major monthly expense ($300/month). At the agreement of getting her to be more Mustachian in other ways, I might have to concede these or at least a portion of them for now. It's NYC and the classes have more value to her (mental, spiritual) than just the health benefits. I know that's Anti-Mustache, but I think it's our version of his luxurious house! Thoughts?

5) My last question is about what kind of Accounts breakdown you guys would advise. I have USAA through my family and have always used and enjoyed it. But what you advise for the breakdown of accounts between the two of us? It's really important to my wife to have an account of her own that she can spend on what she likes without feeling like she's taking from our joint fund. (She works in fashion and is by no means crazy about it, but she does buy things here and there). What would you advise and with which companies? Should we aim for some cash-back cards? And does it matter if we're both on USAA or split between Citi and USAA?

Thank you SO much for reading this far. Let me know if anything else major jumps out at your from the above! I'll keep an eye on this and post back as quickly as I can.

- Dave






surfhb

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 07:27:24 PM »
1.   I would pay off all debt right now if you have the savings to do so

2.   What kind of leverage would your in laws use?    Are they just plain annoying or do they demand certain things you aren't comfortable with  ?   If you can put up with them then I say take full advantage of what they are offering.    I think you should sit down with them at a nice restaurant and explain what your goals are here :)

3.  You both should be putting 17.5k into both 401ks and $5500 each into ROTH IRAs.    HSA and college funds for children as well.   I'll let others add more info

4.  I get the workout fees because I pay $170 a month for Lagree Pilates classes.   It's wonderful and keeps me sane.   I did the liberty of searching for a Lagree place near you to save you money but they are classes are $320 a month.  Jeez!!


Your in a great place and could both stop working by your 40th birthday if you keep spending down and only buy things that truly make you happy

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 07:32:40 PM by surfhb »

skarn

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 09:14:58 PM »
I wouldn't advise being in a situation where other people have financial leverage over you, even (especially?) if it's your in-laws. And it doesn't sound like you're in urgent need of cash either. If you are fine with the status quo ($783 rent/month) it sounds like a very good deal until you save enough to get your own place.

MDM

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 09:36:12 PM »
Some slight variations on previous suggestions:

  - Pay off the 6.55% loans ASAP.  Make only minimum payments on the 2.08% loan.
  - Yes, do max allowable on 401k/IRA/HSA/etc.
      - Choice of traditional vs. Roth is less clear.
      - One defensible approach: use traditional until your taxable (not gross, not net: taxable) income drops to the 15% bracket, then use Roth.

If you enter into some new arrangement with the in-laws, do it in writing.  You have a good situation now.  It could perhaps be even better.  But I'd still suggest you and your wife say something like "thanks Mom & Dad, we really appreciate your offer.  Do you mind if we sign a contract so we all know what we are agreeing to?"  If they do mind, then avoid it.

"His & Hers" vs. "Ours" finances is another "whatever works best for you" subject.  Do understand, however, that whatever either one of you spends individually does take from what you can do jointly.  You might agree on some nominal amount ($200/mo. ?) that each of you can spend individually, and anything above that becomes a joint decision.

dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 09:51:44 AM »
Thanks for all the replies so far, guys. Very helpful. Any thoughts on how we should consolidate our bank accounts, cash rewards cards, etc?

surfhb

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 11:35:45 AM »
Personally I think it's more productive to have a joint account so you both sit down once a month to pay bills and go over your general financial health.   You're married so I really think it simplifies things.  Also have separate accounts for your monthly spending and side hustles.

Couple of other points.   Stop using credit cards unless it's assured you pay them off monthly and are only used for spend tracking.     Bottom line is that you should never have CC debt. Ever!

I also think you should pay a one time fee to a tax professional whom you can sit down with and explain your situation and goals. 

Have you read the boglehead wiki?  It goes over passive index investing.   Read books from the suggested reading page and get educated.    Boglehead investment philosophy can be found here:

http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Video:Bogleheads®_investment_philosophy



dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 12:36:11 PM »
Yeah, we use CC's but never have any debt or insurance on them. Paid off in full every month.

I also had another question, this time on the insurance front. Before we got married, my wife was on a Mustachian-style high-deductible, high co-pay health insurance plan through her parents. Something about this was going to allow her to be on that plan until she was 29. When we got married, she switched to the plan that we get through my school. As mentioned above, this is $315/month for the two of us. We have tiered Rxs costs at $7/$30/$50 depending on the type. Our co-pays are $20/Primary and $25/Specialist. It's United Healthcare Oxford and the Network is very big and we can always find Doctors we need.

The $315 is for the family plan and, as we don't have children yet, it's much more than the $30 I was paying by myself. But when we have kids, that rate won't go up at all.

My question is: is it worth my doing research on the open market to see if I can find a better price for us? Should we switch back to a more Mustachian high-deductible, only catastrophic injury style plan? Or are we unlikely to find a better deal for the two of us, living in NYC as quite healthy people who haven't had any major health issues (knock on wood!). Thanks!

MayDay

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 12:51:54 PM »
If she is healthy as a horse, maybe consider an ACA high deductive plan.

But even paying the full family price, your work plan is cheap cheap cheap. If she ever has to go to the doctor, or there is any chance of a surprise pregnancy, I would stick with it.

dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2014, 07:28:37 PM »
Any other input? This has been super helpful so far. I'm still wondering about the best mix of accounts of to use, including switching to cash rewards cards and what not. What's the going opinion on USAA as a  bank? Good? Mediocre?

Also, I managed to dig up the info on my wife's 401k and stock options. She's not currently contributing but is about to. Can you guys help me make sense of her options here and let me know what you'd advise setting up? See the attached photo. Thanks!

MDM

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 10:13:17 PM »
Also, I managed to dig up the info on my wife's 401k and stock options. She's not currently contributing but is about to. Can you guys help me make sense of her options here and let me know what you'd advise setting up? See the attached photo. Thanks!
Here are some thoughts.  Not sure what does and doesn't make sense to you already...?

GapShare 401k Plan: Contribute the maximum 30%/mo.  When you hit the IRS max for the year (currently $17,500) the payroll department should simply stop taking the 401k money out.  Check this, but that is the usual procedure.

ESPP: Buy the full 15%.  Then it is up to you whether to sell it immediately (in which case you have made 15% * 15% = 2.25% of annual salary), or hold it (in which case it may do better than the market or it may do worse).

DCP: I'm guessing she's not yet eligible...?

dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 06:26:36 AM »
Also, I managed to dig up the info on my wife's 401k and stock options. She's not currently contributing but is about to. Can you guys help me make sense of her options here and let me know what you'd advise setting up? See the attached photo. Thanks!
Here are some thoughts.  Not sure what does and doesn't make sense to you already...?

GapShare 401k Plan: Contribute the maximum 30%/mo.  When you hit the IRS max for the year (currently $17,500) the payroll department should simply stop taking the 401k money out.  Check this, but that is the usual procedure.

ESPP: Buy the full 15%.  Then it is up to you whether to sell it immediately (in which case you have made 15% * 15% = 2.25% of annual salary), or hold it (in which case it may do better than the market or it may do worse).

DCP: I'm guessing she's not yet eligible...?

Yeah you're right about her not being eligible. How does the ESPP work? It's not an option I've read about before. If we're unable to contribute the full % to both accounts (401k and ESPP) which one should we prioritize? Also, am I reading correctly that (for 401k) that her company matches 4% as long as she's putting in at least 1%? And the amount they contribute never goes up?

Thanks!

MDM

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 08:26:04 AM »
How does the ESPP work? It's not an option I've read about before. If we're unable to contribute the full % to both accounts (401k and ESPP) which one should we prioritize? Also, am I reading correctly that (for 401k) that her company matches 4% as long as she's putting in at least 1%? And the amount they contribute never goes up?
Must be the season for ESPPs - see this thread for a relevant discussion.

401k and ESPP are apples and oranges.  The 401k is a long term tax-deferred investment option.  ESPPs can be a way to make a long term taxable investment in an individual stock, but you can also use it for "quick cash": buy the stock offered through the ESPP, then sell it as soon as you can.  You make approximately (depending on the exact price fluctuations over a few days) 15% on the ESPP purchase and sale, and if you use 15% of annual salary that is the same as getting a 2.25% raise for the year.  If you have to make a choice, the 401k seems better - but you should have a cash "emergency fund" anyway and that could be used to fund the ESPP purchase.  There is a very slight risk that the stock price falls more than 15% in the days between purchase and sale, but the far greater likelihood is that you will replenish your e-fund with an extra 8-10% (your after-tax return on the 15% profit) within a week or so.

The "dollar for dollar company match" implies that the company will match whatever percentage she contributes, up to 4%.  If she puts in 2.83% the company will put in 2.83%, etc.  When she gets above 4% the entire amount is still deducted pre-tax and is thus good for you - it's just that the company match stops at 4%.

dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 09:33:41 AM »
Thanks, MDM! My only remaining question from my original post is about what banks to work with, which cards to use, etc. As I mentioned - I've always been on USAA and my wife has Citibank. Neither of these has any particularly great cash rewards or points, just the standard stuff.

How and with which banks/cards have you guys been successful with managing individual and joint expense? I know, at the minimum, that we'll need to have:

1) A personal checking account for each of us ("Fun money" and stuff we want to buy)
2) A joint checking account (For bills and joint expenses)
3) At least one Savings account (emergency fund and/or saving up for a down payment on a house/apt; maybe ING DirectOrange Savings?)

Then it's a question of what to do with the invested money, balanced between:

4) 401k's (details below)
5) Roth IRA (don't have one of these yet)
6) Vanguard and/or other funds that we're investing in with a view to MMM style mental retirement in 7-10 years.

I should mention that we still have lots of potential parental support. If something catastrophic were to happen we could turn to our parents for help, though we haven't done that in years.

If y'all have specific suggestions for any of the above that have worked really well for you (and might for us, given our situation and income) - let me know! We'll also need to figure out what % of out monthly checks to contribute to all of these things but that I can do once we've got everything set up.

This community has already proven to be so damn supportive. Thanks!

Chranstronaut

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2014, 09:58:05 AM »
The $315 is for the family plan and, as we don't have children yet, it's much more than the $30 I was paying by myself. But when we have kids, that rate won't go up at all.

My question is: is it worth my doing research on the open market to see if I can find a better price for us?

I would say it's always worth it to do a little research.  If you can access an online exchange, you'll probably have a good idea of the price range for your situation and area in less than 30 minutes.  If it looks like you can get a better deal, then keep going and spend a few more hours finding the best plan.

Consider the math on this: if you can save $50 a month by finding a better policy in 5 hours of your free time, in one year you will have paid yourself $120 an hour to do the research.  That sounds REALLY good to me.

$50 x 12 months = $600 a year savings
$600/5 hours = $120 an hour "paid" wage to you for your efforts

I didn't see you mention your guys' timeline plans for a family (and it's none of my business).  Consider your time frame openly with your wife, and if it's not on the near horizon, maybe it doesn't make sense to be on a family plan for a few years.  I personally don't budget medically for "accidental pregnancy" outside of my general emergency fund, and wouldn't want to pay higher premiums for years in the hope that it won't "go up in the future."  Maybe your wife's gym classes are insurance enough.

dfree86

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 02:31:30 PM »
Thanks for the input about the Health Plans. I thinks $315/month, even for two people, is going to be hard to beat in NYC. But I'll look into it.

Anyone have thoughts about the accounts setup and allocation I ask about in the post above? Thanks!


MDM

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 04:19:43 PM »
My only remaining question from my original post is about what banks to work with, which cards to use, etc. As I mentioned - I've always been on USAA and my wife has Citibank. Neither of these has any particularly great cash rewards or points, just the standard stuff.

How and with which banks/cards have you guys been successful with managing individual and joint expense? I know, at the minimum, that we'll need to have:

1) A personal checking account for each of us ("Fun money" and stuff we want to buy)
2) A joint checking account (For bills and joint expenses)
3) At least one Savings account (emergency fund and/or saving up for a down payment on a house/apt; maybe ING DirectOrange Savings?)

Then it's a question of what to do with the invested money, balanced between:

4) 401k's (details below)
5) Roth IRA (don't have one of these yet)
6) Vanguard and/or other funds that we're investing in with a view to MMM style mental retirement in 7-10 years.

I should mention that we still have lots of potential parental support. If something catastrophic were to happen we could turn to our parents for help, though we haven't done that in years.

If y'all have specific suggestions for any of the above that have worked really well for you (and might for us, given our situation and income) - let me know! We'll also need to figure out what % of out monthly checks to contribute to all of these things but that I can do once we've got everything set up.

This community has already proven to be so damn supportive. Thanks!

No experience with USAA.

See http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/credit-cards/ for some credit card options.  Or check with a local credit union - ours had a good package once upon a time but recently others (e.g. Chase) have better.

Regarding the numbered options:
1) We don't have these.  Any big expenses are joint decisions, and cash is sufficient for little personal stuff.
2) We have this: credit union joint checking account
3) We have this: credit union joint savings account with up to 6 automated transfers to checking each month (e.g., overdraft protection).  That seemed sufficient when savings account interest rates were respectable.  In today's world, we also have on online savings account w/ GE Capital (there are others available, e.g. Ally, as well) paying 0.9%.
4) Had it and max'ed it while working - worked well and highly recommend.   
5) Never did open one (should have at least sold some ESPP shares and done this, but didn't) due to putting as much as possible in 401k, ESPP, and, later in career, some deferred compensation.  But things have turned out ok...so far, anyway...so I still believe in putting "as much as practical" into pre-tax savings - at least after one reaches the 25% marginal federal rate.
6) Good thing to do with any nonessential money left after maximizing #4 & #5.

surfhb

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Re: Reader Case Study - In A New York State of Mind
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 04:22:05 PM »
Just have a checking and savings jointly and individually.....Pretty basic really.    I wouldn't concern myself with reward and points....it's so inconsequential for what your goals are

Again....populate your 401k and ROTH.   

You really need to read up on investing and start getting educated though.....read the boglehead wiki to start things off
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 04:24:48 PM by surfhb »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!