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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 02:08:14 PM

Title: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 02:08:14 PM
Income:
Me (37)- 87k Gross, 18K annual to TSP
Husband (47)- 65k Gross, defined benefit retirement and 5k annual to 403(b)

Monthly net income- 6700

Current expenses: $5300
Mortgage- $2256
   Principal and Interest - $1394
   Property Tax - $486
   Insurance - $65
    PMI – $311
Groceries- $500
Student loan- $330
Housekeeper- $260
Pharmacy- $230 (details below)
Commuting costs - $230
Utilities- $207
Restaurants- $260
Shopping- $165
Home Improvement and repair- $115
Alcohol and Bars - $100
Work related - $85
Internet- $80
Personal care- $105
Gifts and charity- $50
Cigarettes (DH)- $50
Movies and DVDs- $25
Cat- $20
Yoga- $20
Everything else including Cash and ATM- $200

2015 Hypothetical monthly surplus = $1400 (maps quite nicely to the cost of daycare for future kid)

Assets:  $461,000
Checking monthly cash flow- $10,000
Betterment- $11,000
Rollover IRA- $41,000
TSP-36,000 (reflects loan out; see liabilities)
Lending Club- $3000
House: $360,000 value; ~$54000 equity

Liabilities: $347,000
Mortgage at 3.25%- $306,000
TSP loan at 2.25%- $25,000 (for adoption; $13K tax credit once adoption is finalized)
Student loan at 4.5%- $16,000

I’m very new to this, so please tell me what I need to hear. I’ve been reading MMM for over a year, but it is just now that I’ve really decided that we need to go into austerity mode. We are preparing for the arrival of a baby this year.  As a fed, I have no paid maternity leave. My goal is more financial freedom, a stache of money that means I don’t have to worry a lot. I don’t want to quit my job, which is my dream job in a dream field that I am paid embarrassing amounts of money to do. My husband claims he would love to retire tomorrow. He hates his coworkers and his dysfunctional university environment.

My mental block is that we have some ridiculous spending habits that I will never get my husband to eliminate. I need your help and advice on the things I can control and maybe a bit of reality about what I can achieve with the husband I have. His non-negotiables include that enormous $230 “pharmacy” expense. This is what he spends monthly on his organic outdoor grown medicine. He really does need it and I prefer it to the other prescriptions that he would have to take in its absence. But, it is HARD to see that number and not just want to throw up my hands and exclaim that we will never be able to have the kind of savings cushion that I want.

Also, we have had a housekeeper since six months into our marriage. His need for order conflicted with my complete disregard for it. When we bought our house, we did a trial run without a housekeeper and it did not work. That $260 is there unless he becomes a SAHD.

My dream would be for us to live on my income alone and have him quit his job and stay home to take care of our kid(s). I don’t actually see this happening, however. Our current expenses are too high, even without the housekeeper and the medicine. Also, once he leaves the work force, it would be almost impossible for him to get back in if we needed him to.  So, I’m just left with a wishy-washy wish to save more money. That doesn’t feel hardcore enough to me. What should I focus on? Student loan? TSP loan? Eliminating PMI? Six month expenses stache? I want to be optimistic, but I think I’m using some of these larger budget numbers to convince myself there is nothing I can do.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: MBot on January 04, 2015, 02:22:45 PM

Commuting costs - $230
Utilities- $207
Internet- $80

Groceries- $500
Restaurants- $260
Shopping- $165
Home Improvement and repair- $115
Alcohol and Bars - $100
Work related - $85
Personal care- $105
Gifts and charity- $50
Movies and DVDs- $25
Cat- $20
Yoga- $20
Everything else including Cash and ATM- $200

 I want to be optimistic, but I think I’m using some of these larger budget numbers to convince myself there is nothing I can do.

You can change all of this stuff. There's $517 between commuting, utilities and Internet. That can be reduced.

The BIG one though, is that you still have $1057 of "variable spending" besides all your husband's stuff. That's insane. $200 in cash? $165 in shopping? $260 in restaurants, $500 on groceries and another $100 on alcohol? That's facepunch-worthy.

Put another way, 20% of your monthly expenses is down-the-drain stuff that you can drastically reduce or control. That's over a thousand dollars. A MONTH. You're eating and drinking most of that and you can never get it back. But you CAN control that spending and change it.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: LadyStache on January 04, 2015, 02:28:37 PM
If you have a housekeeper come in every week, experiment with having her come every other week and try to do a little more around the house yourself during the off week so your husband doesn't get stressed about the mess. If that works out well, you can further experiment with a once a month cleaning.

Work on groceries/eating out/alcohol and bars. You're spending 860 on these things every month. You should be able to cut that in half.

Call your internet provider and try to negotiate a lower rate, you're currently paying a lot.

And stop smoking!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 02:37:39 PM

Work on groceries/eating out/alcohol and bars. You're spending 860 on these things every month. You should be able to cut that in half.

Call your internet provider and try to negotiate a lower rate, you're currently paying a lot.

And stop smoking!

I'm in total agreement on the dining and groceries. We are definitely working on that. Those are real numbers from last year (except groceries which is an aspirational reduction from a real 600). I hope to reduce them by quite a bit this year.

I just renegotiated the internet last week. It took all my powers of persuasion to convince my DH that we didn't need cable. He won't give up the high speed internet as well.

And as you might have guessed, my husband is the one who smokes and it is super gross. But, it is not easy to get a 47 year old who has been smoking since they were 12 to quit. I've tried. I'm going to try to use the baby as leverage, but I'm not optimistic.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: swick on January 04, 2015, 02:40:31 PM
Yes, you are using them as an excuse, and yes there is a lot you can do about it.

As other posters have mentioned you are spending A TON on variable spending which could easily be cut down. This is low-hanging fruit that could lead to some big gains and motivation to tackle some of the other issues.

I have a sneaking suspicion though that the spending is replacing or compensating for other things in your life. Sounds like Hubby hates his job - is some of the spending stress related?

When you are evaluating purchases/services a really great way to look at it is by using Eric'as chart. It is simple but a great way to get to the "why" behind your spending decisions.
http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html (http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 02:44:26 PM


You can change all of this stuff. There's $517 between commuting, utilities and Internet. That can be reduced.

The BIG one though, is that you still have $1057 of "variable spending" besides all your husband's stuff. That's insane. $200 in cash? $165 in shopping? $260 in restaurants, $500 on groceries and another $100 on alcohol? That's facepunch-worthy.

Put another way, 20% of your monthly expenses is down-the-drain stuff that you can drastically reduce or control. That's over a thousand dollars. A MONTH. You're eating and drinking most of that and you can never get it back. But you CAN control that spending and change it.

Thanks for the facepunch. You are absolutely right about the food/ dining/ alcohol. I'm trying to do the grocery shopping this year and get it down to something reasonable. My DH cooks and is European so he goes to the grocery store literally every day. I need to pull my weight around the house more and lot of this would go down. Also, I quit drinking. So that might help!

The commuting has actually already been drastically reduced. I take the bus 4 days a week and my husband commutes by scooter. I think the actuals will be much lower this year. Utilities and internet are actually fixed. We did an energy audit this year and we're about as low as we can go. Internet is what it is. I cancelled cable and reduced that bill but I live in a very high cost of living area.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 02:54:27 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion though that the spending is replacing or compensating for other things in your life. Sounds like Hubby hates his job - is some of the spending stress related?

http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html (http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html)

Thanks for the link and the response. I will definitely check that out. I think you're quite insightful about the stress. Actually, though, the spending is not my husband's but mine. I can't blame him for the shopping or the cash/atm business. There is a lot of it that I can control if I put my mind to it. For instance, my actual spending on clothes last year was $4,600 and over $1000 on books. I've tried to pare that down this year. Shopping includes a $50 clothing budget and the rest is for target/costco stuff that my husband buys (mostly toiletry and household stuff). I've tried not to be too drastic on the idea that I don't want to set unrealistic goals.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 03:12:33 PM
I didn't want my original post to be too long in the interest of getting any replies so I left out some details. But since you've all been so nice in responding, let me add that I think that there is a vicious cycle of spending going on. I look at my husband's big  expenses (internet, cable, housekeeper, weed, cigarettes, alcohol, expensive home cooking etc.) and it makes me think I also "deserve" to spend at least equally on myself, hence the shopping and the going out to eat with friends. I guess I need to control what I can control and not worry about his expenses. This is actually an epiphany for me that comes from seeing your responses on my screen.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: LadyStache on January 04, 2015, 03:16:05 PM
My DH cooks and is European so he goes to the grocery store literally every day. I need to pull my weight around the house more and lot of this would go down.

Haha. My SO does most of the cooking and is also European. He would go to the grocery store every day (and sometimes more) if I didn't pre-emptively stock up on stuff. :D
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Metta on January 04, 2015, 03:16:36 PM
If you have a housekeeper come in every week, experiment with having her come every other week and try to do a little more around the house yourself during the off week so your husband doesn't get stressed about the mess. If that works out well, you can further experiment with a once a month cleaning.

Or negotiate for an area of the house that can be messy and hidden. That's what I did. Then I keep my messy area messy and work to avoid messing up my husband's neat freak areas. :)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 03:27:06 PM
If you have a housekeeper come in every week, experiment with having her come every other week and try to do a little more around the house yourself during the off week so your husband doesn't get stressed about the mess. If that works out well, you can further experiment with a once a month cleaning.

Or negotiate for an area of the house that can be messy and hidden. That's what I did. Then I keep my messy area messy and work to avoid messing up my husband's neat freak areas. :)

These are both good ideas, thank you. I think the first is more likely, since we live in 760 square feet (!) and there aren't many hidden places. I think I might preemptively start keeping things neat so the housekeeper has less to do and start pointing it out to him on the Tuesdays before she comes. I really do think two adults should be able to keep a 760 square foot house clean. I've actually started on this path by doing the 333 project in my closet to eliminate the pile of clothes that drives him nuts. I didn't get down to 33, but 50 isn't too bad right?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 03:30:01 PM
My DH cooks and is European so he goes to the grocery store literally every day. I need to pull my weight around the house more and lot of this would go down.

Haha. My SO does most of the cooking and is also European. He would go to the grocery store every day (and sometimes more) if I didn't pre-emptively stock up on stuff. :D

There have definitely been multiple trip days! I think it gives him comfort and I didn't really understand it until I went to Italy and saw how his mother shops at the various markets and gets most of her social interaction from the shopkeepers. It would be cute if it weren't so expensive :).
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on January 04, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
People are picking at the smaller expenses...but wait a minute...you said you're living in 750 square feet AND paying well over 2000 per month in mortgage AND spending 230 on commuting expenses. So now I'm confused. People usually sacrifice on 1 or 2, but not all three (i.e. small + big mortgage payment = central city small commute, or big mortgage payment + long commute = big house, etc). Can you refinance? How long is your mortgage at what rate?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 04:07:45 PM
People are picking at the smaller expenses...but wait a minute...you said you're living in 750 square feet AND paying well over 2000 per month in mortgage AND spending 230 on commuting expenses. So now I'm confused. People usually sacrifice on 1 or 2, but not all three (i.e. small + big mortgage payment = central city small commute, or big mortgage payment + long commute = big house, etc). Can you refinance? How long is your mortgage at what rate?

Great question. Two answers. First- I bundled all vehicle costs into the "commuting category". So, that is car insurance for two cars (!) and a scooter, the bus daily for me, gas (including husband's scooter commute, weekend trips, and vacation averaged) and bridge tolls and parking for the one day a week that I drive to work. Second- we live in the SF Bay area, so housing is expensive. I work in San Francisco and my husband works in Berkeley. We live closer to hubby's work and our house is perfect. We don't need anything bigger and there is literally nothing cheaper. It is nothing short of miracle that both my husband and I work in the same very competitive dream field and we both have jobs in the bay area. This is unheard of, so we feel very fortunate.

Our mortgage is an FHA 30 year fixed at 3.25%. We streamline refinanced in 2012 from a 4.5% rate and are stuck with that dreaded PMI until 2017. I called around recently about refinancing, but we likely wouldn't appraise at 20% equity and would be in a higher interest rate. I've thought about a 15 year mortgage, but I'm more inclined to put more toward the existing mortgage principal and free that monthly income up for any other priorities that arise, especially with impending baby. Does this seem like a good plan to you? I'm open to other suggestions and appreciate you taking an interest. It is our one big expense that keeps me from the dream of DH as SAHD. The rest is, as many have astutely pointed out, subject to belt tightening and could go away if one of us lost our job tomorrow.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Allie on January 04, 2015, 04:11:11 PM
With a baby, you are going to have much less time and need more things.  Having 1400 left over to cover daycare seems like it's perfect, but unless you have a stash of cloth diapers all ready to go, the baby costs are going to add to the number.  Diapers, formula, clothes, etc can be expensive if you let them.  This may be a good way to open the conversation with your husband.  He may not want to give up the weed and alcohol, but he may be willing to look at the target, grocery, and other spending. 

Have you considered setting up a defined budget together?  It may be a good eye opening exercise.  Price formula, diapers, health care for baby, and such and add them in to see how things shape up. 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: caliq on January 04, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Why do you have two cars in a major metro area if you commute on the bus and your husband commutes on a scooter?  I get the need for one car for trips or rainy days for your husband, etc. but two?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 04:22:37 PM
With a baby, you are going to have much less time and need more things.  Having 1400 left over to cover daycare seems like it's perfect, but unless you have a stash of cloth diapers all ready to go, the baby costs are going to add to the number.  Diapers, formula, clothes, etc can be expensive if you let them.  This may be a good way to open the conversation with your husband.  He may not want to give up the weed and alcohol, but he may be willing to look at the target, grocery, and other spending. 

Have you considered setting up a defined budget together?  It may be a good eye opening exercise.  Price formula, diapers, health care for baby, and such and add them in to see how things shape up. 

Yes, yes, yes! I think so much of this is related to my anxiety about FINALLY having a baby. That's a long story with a whole lot of sadness built in, so it can be difficult to get hubby off of his cloud and down to reality about what a baby will actually cost. I feel like such a downer pointing out that the baby won't just be the 30K that we are spending on adoption. I like the idea of a defined budget, but I just brought it up with him and he doesn't see the point until we actually have a take home baby in our arms. To quote him "let's worry about that when it happens". I see his point and realize I should be grateful that someone will be willing to give us their infant and trust that it will all work out, but I'm a planner. I think I can do some of this without him and maybe once the baby comes, he will come around...?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Dicey on January 04, 2015, 04:26:53 PM
And as you might have guessed, my husband is the one who smokes and it is super gross. But, it is not easy to get a 47 year old who has been smoking since they were 12 to quit. I've tried. I'm going to try to use the baby as leverage, but I'm not optimistic.

GAAAAAAKKKK! OMG! It is going to take a ton of will power not to reach out and sweetly offer a free facepunch for this! Please, please, do not even consider using the baby as leverage for ANYthing! No, NO, NO!

You are to be congratulated for finding such relatively affordable housing in the Bay Area. Don't prepay it at the expense of retirement/EF/college saving.

Questions: How long have you been together/married?
Will you be comfortable in your small space once baby comes along?
Babies are wonderful, messy, expensive creatures. Does DH buy into all of this?
If you can learn to be comfortable with controlling your own spending, do you think it will make enough of a difference or will DH just spend what you save?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 04:32:48 PM
Why do you have two cars in a major metro area if you commute on the bus and your husband commutes on a scooter?  I get the need for one car for trips or rainy days for your husband, etc. but two?

Another great question. We have one "good car" that I bought two years ago with cash ($4000) so that I can actually drive to work on the freeway and road trips (VW Passat). The other car is a 1991 Toyota Corrolla that DH bought years ago for 500 bucks. It is fuel efficient, will never die, and he uses is for all his errands. I floated the idea of selling the Passat, but he likes having it for vacations and my commute. I actually wouldn't mind taking the toyota on the freeway, but he has banned its use off of surface streets. It is a total beater and we couldn't sell it and he could no longer tell his story of buying a car for $500 bucks. I've thought about getting per mile insurance, since we've only put about 10,000 miles on the car since we bought it 8 years ago, but I've never really looked into it seriously. Does anybody do that? Is it worthwhile? We drive less than 10k a year with both cars combined and pay $50 a month for insurance.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 04:48:37 PM
And as you might have guessed, my husband is the one who smokes and it is super gross. But, it is not easy to get a 47 year old who has been smoking since they were 12 to quit. I've tried. I'm going to try to use the baby as leverage, but I'm not optimistic.

GAAAAAAKKKK! OMG! It is going to take a ton of will power not to reach out and sweetly offer a free facepunch for this! Please, please, do not even consider using the baby as leverage for ANYthing! No, NO, NO!

You are to be congratulated for finding such relatively affordable housing in the Bay Area. Don't prepay it at the expense of retirement/EF/college saving.

Questions: How long have you been together/married?
Will you be comfortable in your small space once baby comes along?
Babies are wonderful, messy, expensive creatures. Does DH buy into all of this?
If you can learn to be comfortable with controlling your own spending, do you think it will make enough of a difference or will DH just spend what you save?

Good point. I actually am not much of a nag about the smoking and "leverage" is the wrong word. I just think we might start to think differently about his nasty habit once we have a poor defenseless little creature around. He can be selfish with the smoking with just me, but with a baby? Maybe, maybe not. Good point, though. I'm not that person and certainly don't want to be.

We've been together for 9 years, married for 7.

We're happy with our living space and we don't really have a choice. He was raised in Italy and is used to way less space than American standards require. He grew up with a sibling in a much smaller space than we have currently and his family is quite wealthy. It's just a different expectation. I'm actually quite lucky on that front. I feel like I've been really hard on him here, but he really does have quite reasonably frugal ways when it comes to this big stuff.

We've been trying to have a baby for 5 years and he is super excited about the prospect. He is very nurturing, probably more so than me. He does have way less experience with babies than I do and I think he's in for some reality checks around how much work they are and how messy but isn't every new parent? You never actually know until you've lived it.

You're last question is spot-on... the big question I'm asking myself. He is not super-spendy. I think the existing expenses are the limit and they haven't really expanded as we've gotten raises etc. In fact, he has responded well to some budget constraints in the past. For example, our 2013 monthly grocery bill was about $900/ month (!). He managed to get that down to about $600 a month in 2014 even though I got a raise. So, he's not expansionist with his spending.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Allie on January 04, 2015, 04:54:18 PM
How soon is the baby coming?  caring for a baby shouldn't be done seat of your pants.  You will be sleep deprived and insanely busy.  Add baby stuff to your lists for a couple weeks before it arrives so you are all ready.  It will give your husband a taste of the expenses and ensure you aren't caught in a situation where you have to google "t shirt diaper" at 3am.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: ScienceSexSavings on January 04, 2015, 05:03:10 PM
I agree with most of what's come up so far, and I'm going to add some thoughts as a former pro housekeeper. First of all, if you're getting weekly service for that price you have one hell of a good rate, or your housekeeper does really short visits. I can't think of a single client I visited weekly that would be as low-maintenance as two adults, one of whom is very tidy. Even with the baby, I don't think you'll need service that often. A lot of baby-related mess can't be left for a housekeeper anyway, you have to deal with it pretty quickly. There's more garbage to go out and more laundry to do, but usually that wouldn't be left piled up for the housekeeper (at least not for me?). The biggest things we tackle in homes with children are the scattered clutter and the messy floors. Your husband will probably be tidying the clutter regularly, and I'm sure you guys can handle doing the floors 1x/week if it's an issue for him. So, I recommend service every other week.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 05:04:11 PM
How soon is the baby coming?  caring for a baby shouldn't be done seat of your pants.  You will be sleep deprived and insanely busy.  Add baby stuff to your lists for a couple weeks before it arrives so you are all ready.  It will give your husband a taste of the expenses and ensure you aren't caught in a situation where you have to google "t shirt diaper" at 3am.

We're adopting, so we don't know when it comes. That is when someone gives birth and is unable to care for their infant and thinks we would be the perfect folks to raise it.  I've been planning for this for 5 years, but there is something psychological going on with DH that he won't count his eggs until they are hatched (pun intended). I'm with him on at least part of this. I will not buy stuff until relinquishment papers are signed.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 04, 2015, 05:12:20 PM
I agree with most of what's come up so far, and I'm going to add some thoughts as a former pro housekeeper. First of all, if you're getting weekly service for that price you have one hell of a good rate, or your housekeeper does really short visits. I can't think of a single client I visited weekly that would be as low-maintenance as two adults, one of whom is very tidy. Even with the baby, I don't think you'll need service that often. A lot of baby-related mess can't be left for a housekeeper anyway, you have to deal with it pretty quickly. There's more garbage to go out and more laundry to do, but usually that wouldn't be left piled up for the housekeeper (at least not for me?). The biggest things we tackle in homes with children are the scattered clutter and the messy floors. Your husband will probably be tidying the clutter regularly, and I'm sure you guys can handle doing the floors 1x/week if it's an issue for him. So, I recommend service every other week.

We've had the same housekeeper every week for 8 years (with a 6 mo hiatus) and she has never raised her rate, so we are getting a great deal. Twice monthly service would likely be almost as expensive because we would have to renegotiate our original rate. You're actually making me think we should give her a raise... eek. I'm  hoping that having someone home full time for a while after the baby will give us the break from the housekeeper that we need to establish a new regime in which his need for clean gets a bit more realistic. Also, I'm much more mature than I was when we first got married. I could probably pull my weight now... or think about the expense and do a lot it myself.  As I said before, I'm going to start preemptively cleaning.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: TerriM on January 04, 2015, 07:17:05 PM
I don't mind the organic medicine if he'll get rid of the cigarettes!!!!!   

You have a baby coming.  The cigs really need to go.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Mommyof2 on January 04, 2015, 07:55:10 PM
I am an adoptive mom- I don't see saving for this event in your budget.  FYI we were told around 30k, we spent closer to 70k by the time we were done.  I also don't see a savings account on your list with the cash in it, how are you planning on paying for the adoption?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
A lot since I checked before. Whatever timeline they gave you in homestudy triple it. The PMI popped out at me as being off the hook, but SF is the worst, and yeah, you're living cheap there. Bet you're bundling a bunch of your husbands smoking costs into his, well, smoking costs....hard to believe that habit costs $50 per month there,....I'm looking for low hanging fruit and am amazed at how little I find. Best I can say is take the time every day, consciously, to see where your money is going. Spend your dollars like they are pennies and everyone is precious...no point starting fights with your husband. Just put some money in a jar for this and that and be done with it. 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Faraday on January 04, 2015, 10:50:27 PM
Your PMI is huge. I'd try to ram enough money toward the mortgage to get that PMI gone.

Do away with some of the discretionary stuff and jack up yours and his 401k contributions. You might as well stop giving money to Uncle Sam and instead give it to your 401k. Get rid of that PMI and you can push that same $$ amount toward your 401k...
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: lifejoy on January 05, 2015, 08:26:34 AM
I have to point out the obvious: a smoker pays $50/week until they have to go to the hospital for goodness knows what. Then it's $$$. My husband works in a hospital and so many illnesses revolve around smoking. I see this as a major long term cost problem :(
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 08:38:25 AM
I am an adoptive mom- I don't see saving for this event in your budget.  FYI we were told around 30k, we spent closer to 70k by the time we were done.  I also don't see a savings account on your list with the cash in it, how are you planning on paying for the adoption?

Thanks for the advice. Congratulations on making it through the adoption process. I'm sure we have a lot to learn from you and other adoptive parents. The adoption fees are paid, the homestudy is done, and the remaining 15K we have for adoption isn't reflected above because I consider it spent. I have it socked away in a special account.  I know adoption is different everywhere, but I don't foresee  a way we could spend more than the remaining 15K on direct adoption costs. We have set birthmother expenses quite high even. Maybe you have some insights about that? I do want to be prepared.

A lot since I checked before. Whatever timeline they gave you in homestudy triple it. The PMI popped out at me as being off the hook, but SF is the worst, and yeah, you're living cheap there. Bet you're bundling a bunch of your husbands smoking costs into his, well, smoking costs....hard to believe that habit costs $50 per month there,....I'm looking for low hanging fruit and am amazed at how little I find. Best I can say is take the time every day, consciously, to see where your money is going. Spend your dollars like they are pennies and everyone is precious...no point starting fights with your husband. Just put some money in a jar for this and that and be done with it. 

Thanks for the encouragement. You are all so wonderful. The PMI is awful, but it doesn't go away even if I pay the principal down. I'm stuck with it for five years. I really hate it. Homestudy is done and we are "in circulation"! Whoo-hoo. It did all take much longer than we thought, but mostly it was us not moving as quickly as we should have.

Husband rolls his own cigarettes, which is why it is so 'cheap'.  He goes to different stores for his habits, so it is easy to categorize on Mint where the money goes.

I don't mind the organic medicine if he'll get rid of the cigarettes!!!!!   

You have a baby coming.  The cigs really need to go.

Agreed, but see above where I used the word "leverage" and was rightfully called out. It's a fine line to walk with another adult without being controlling and trying to change the person you married. He is smoking (everything) outside now and I'm hoping that will lead to quitting finally. This one is not really about the money. I'm already agreeing to raise a baby with a 47 year old and that is scary enough without the habit. My grandmother died of lung cancer and I took care of her for the last few months of her life. I can't imagine going through that again. He's convinced he's going to live into his 90s though, like all of his grandparents. I don't bring it up anymore. Maybe once we get matched with a birthmother...
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 08:46:34 AM

Do away with some of the discretionary stuff and jack up yours and his 401k contributions. You might as well stop giving money to Uncle Sam and instead give it to your 401k. Get rid of that PMI and you can push that same $$ amount toward your 401k...

My TSP (federal 401k) is maxed. I've thought about maxing his 403b and maybe I should. He has a very generous defined benefit retirement, so I just use that as a mental crutch and have been prioritizing our monthly cash flow instead. I think you have a point though. We should be paying ourselves first and we'll just have less of that monthly cushion to spend.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: bogart on January 05, 2015, 09:03:52 AM
I'm so sorry about the struggle you've had to navigate building your family -- congratulations on your plans to adopt. 

No real words of wisdom on the finances though I'll disagree 100% (or at least 97%) with the idea that, "... caring for a baby shouldn't be done seat of your pants.  You will be sleep deprived and insanely busy.  Add baby stuff to your lists for a couple weeks before it arrives so you are all ready."  Eh.  Babies don't require much, and you live in a major metro area in the era of Amazon.  You'll be fine, and a lot of the stuff babies "require" is very subjective.  I found a battery-powered crib-mounted mobile essential for a short (but important!) interval, as it made it possible for me to take a shower while baby stayed happy, but I certainly didn't need it the first week (and once I did feel strongly about having it, I ordered it online).

My DH was 55 when our son was born after years of infertility treatment (his second family, my first), and a smoker; he's since switched to e-cigarettes (and smokes them only rarely), FWIW.  I can point you toward what I've found to be a very supportive online community of moms (and a few dads) and aspiring parents navigating infertility/loss and/or adoption, if you'd like; PM me.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: greenmimama on January 05, 2015, 09:11:51 AM
I am an adoptive mom- I don't see saving for this event in your budget.  FYI we were told around 30k, we spent closer to 70k by the time we were done.  I also don't see a savings account on your list with the cash in it, how are you planning on paying for the adoption?

Yes saving for the adoption would be great, I am an adoptive mom also 3 times actually all domestic infant adoptions that never cost more than 10k, and my kids are 3, 5 and 8 so it wasn't 20+ years ago :) It can be done for a less amount but saving for it is always a great idea.

Congrats on your impending adoption, how far along in the process are you?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Imustacheyouaquestion on January 05, 2015, 09:14:47 AM
Re-read MMM's "Your Debt is an Emergency" post. Read it with your husband, and ask if he agrees that you two are in a debt emergency. If so, you can proceed with more aggressive savings ideas. As it is, he seems pretty accustomed to your normal expenses. And if he doesn't see a problem with not saving more, how are you going to ask him to change those habits?

The fact that you borrowed $25k for an adoption itself indicates that you aren't on good footing with regards to cash flow and expenses. If your hypothetical savings is $1400 per month, where has that surplus been going in 2014?

Facepunches for housecleaning  - as long as you are in debt, you shouldn't pay someone else to clean your house. Skip some restaurant nights and spend the extra hour or two cleaning up around the house.

I'm confused about the commute. 2 cars, 1 scooter, 1 bus pass. Your husband commutes locally on the scooter, uses the old car for errands, you take the bus 4 days/week and drive the other car once a week? Can you take the bus 5 days per week? Can your husband ride a bike (this would be added incentive to quit smoking!)? You can always rent a highway-safe car for road trips or occasional events. Paying insurance on 3 vehicles while you're in debt doesn't make sense.

Home Improvement and repair- Cut this down to necessary repairs at the moment. Improvements can come later.

Alcohol and Bars - time to cut this now. You're not going to have time with a kid anyhow.

Work related - $85 (?) what's this?

Gifts and charity- $50 - Your favorite charity should be you. Helping others comes once you've secured your own airmask.

Cigarettes (DH)- $50. Even smoking outside is a health risk for the baby (3rd hand smoke).

Movies and DVDs- $25. Netflix costs $8.99/month for streaming. You can reconsider an entertainment budget once you're in the black.

Everything else including Cash and ATM- $200. This is actually a lot of money that's unaccounted for, especially with all of the shopping/personal care/cigarettes/etc that's already in your budget. Try keeping a ledger for a month to see where this goes.

Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: morjax on January 05, 2015, 09:23:45 AM
I'm  hoping that having someone home full time for a while after the baby will give us the break from the housekeeper that we need to establish a new regime in which his need for clean gets a bit more realistic.

This is a *BIG* YMMV, but as a new parent, I don't feel like being home full time with a newborn was a break in the least for us. We were dead tired, and it was a gigantic adjustment that was more exhausting than any job I've had. To be fair, DW had persistent mastitis lasting beyond two months X(

Before I scare you too much, I'll also say that having a kid has been perhaps the most rewarding experience I've had so far. Exhausting, but rewarding. The Little one is now pushing two and things are much smoother, but the start was a rocky turbulent time for us.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Another Reader on January 05, 2015, 09:24:58 AM
I'm sorry to say this and it's going to sound mean, but I'm having trouble understanding how you made it through the home study.  Are you saying a real adoption agency would give a baby to someone that uses drugs as much as your husband does?  That's just insane.  Or did your husband lie to the social workers about his drug use? 

In your shoes, I would stop and ask myself what kind of parent is he really going to be?  Based on what you have said, he's apparently a child himself.  I don't see him being much of a parent, no matter how "nurturing" you think his personality is. 

If you adopt, you will likely be the only parent.  The child will be exposed to and will likely pick up his bad behavior.  If the baby is coming from a home with drug or alcohol issues, your husband will compound the problem that already exists. 

In your shoes, I would not consider adopting until he starts acting like a responsible, non-addicted adult.  And if he does not get there, then either he or the adoption would have to go.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 09:43:47 AM
Re-read MMM's "Your Debt is an Emergency" post. Read it with your husband, and ask if he agrees that you two are in a debt emergency. If so, you can proceed with more aggressive savings ideas. As it is, he seems pretty accustomed to your normal expenses. And if he doesn't see a problem with not saving more, how are you going to ask him to change those habits?

The fact that you borrowed $25k for an adoption itself indicates that you aren't on good footing with regards to cash flow and expenses. If your hypothetical savings is $1400 per month, where has that surplus been going in 2014?

Facepunches for housecleaning  - as long as you are in debt, you shouldn't pay someone else to clean your house. Skip some restaurant nights and spend the extra hour or two cleaning up around the house.

I'm confused about the commute. 2 cars, 1 scooter, 1 bus pass. Your husband commutes locally on the scooter, uses the old car for errands, you take the bus 4 days/week and drive the other car once a week? Can you take the bus 5 days per week? Can your husband ride a bike (this would be added incentive to quit smoking!)? You can always rent a highway-safe car for road trips or occasional events. Paying insurance on 3 vehicles while you're in debt doesn't make sense.

Home Improvement and repair- Cut this down to necessary repairs at the moment. Improvements can come later.

Alcohol and Bars - time to cut this now. You're not going to have time with a kid anyhow.

Work related - $85 (?) what's this?

Gifts and charity- $50 - Your favorite charity should be you. Helping others comes once you've secured your own airmask.

Cigarettes (DH)- $50. Even smoking outside is a health risk for the baby (3rd hand smoke).

Movies and DVDs- $25. Netflix costs $8.99/month for streaming. You can reconsider an entertainment budget once you're in the black.

Everything else including Cash and ATM- $200. This is actually a lot of money that's unaccounted for, especially with all of the shopping/personal care/cigarettes/etc that's already in your budget. Try keeping a ledger for a month to see where this goes.



Everyone has been so nice so far. This is more like what I was expecting. So, thanks :-). It is going to be hard not to be defensive about a lot of this stuff and just make excuses, but you raise of ton of legitimate points.

Starting with savings and cash flow. This is my 2015 budget that eliminates a whole bunch of 2014 spending like cable, gym memberships, weekly massages and almost $1200 worth of other non necessary stuff (the amount clothes and books was shameful). 2014 was scary negative cash flow territory due to a whole lot of stress. We used to have about 25k worth of savings, which was wiped out by various attempts to have a baby. My husband was not willing to put any more cash into adoption; we actually could have swung it if we had wanted to.

I've made some edits on the original post to add more details to some of the stuff. The "work related", for instance, is professional memberships. They are non-negotiable as a professional and not paid by the federal government for obvious reasons.

On the car insurance- does anyone actually pay less than $50 a month for insurance? It doesn't seem like a huge expense to me, but maybe I'm crazy. I don't really see keeping the cars around as a big issue aside for the ridiculousness of having 3 vehicles. And to answer your questions- my bus only runs M-F and I work on Saturday. Italian husband would not be caught dead on a bike and his scooter gas runs about $6 a month, so I've got no qualms there. 

Agreed on the housecleaning facepunch, but that is really nonnegotiable. My husband does not think our debt is an emergency the way I do. He's not a mustachian and I'm trying not to use that as an excuse.

Home improvements and repair is really a savings category for repair and upkeep. We don't spend it every month, but it does get spent annually. Our house is actually in great shape, but we do maintain it to keep it that way.

I quit drinking so the alcohol and bars should go down substantially. He still drinks of course and we homebrew with friends... which is factored in there.

Question for you- do you think I should prioritize paying down the debt (TSP loan and student loan) before retirement? Or, it seems you are suggesting to find that money is this mass of excess?

And finally, the "everything else including cash and atm" should be familiar to most Mint users and is really just an artifact of the kind of spending that I see come up at the end of the month that totally baffles me. I just stick it in that category. I'm going to pay closer attention and ask my husband more questions this year. I hope to eliminate that category altogether, but there will always be weird one-offs. My legder is mint and I will use it. Thanks for the encouragement.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 09:49:44 AM
I'm sorry to say this and it's going to sound mean, but I'm having trouble understanding how you made it through the home study.  Are you saying a real adoption agency would give a baby to someone that uses drugs as much as your husband does?  That's just insane.  Or did your husband lie to the social workers about his drug use? 

In your shoes, I would stop and ask myself what kind of parent is he really going to be?  Based on what you have said, he's apparently a child himself.  I don't see him being much of a parent, no matter how "nurturing" you think his personality is. 

If you adopt, you will likely be the only parent.  The child will be exposed to and will likely pick up his bad behavior.  If the baby is coming from a home with drug or alcohol issues, your husband will compound the problem that already exists. 

In your shoes, I would not consider adopting until he starts acting like a responsible, non-addicted adult.  And if he does not get there, then either he or the adoption would have to go.

My husband has a prescription for a medication that is completely legal where we live. I think he will make an excellent parent and the social workers agree. We plan on being open about this with birthmothers as well. We certainly wouldn't want someone placing their child in a home where they were uncomfortable with our everyday lives. We don't expect it to be a huge issue.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 09:54:14 AM
I'm  hoping that having someone home full time for a while after the baby will give us the break from the housekeeper that we need to establish a new regime in which his need for clean gets a bit more realistic.

This is a *BIG* YMMV, but as a new parent, I don't feel like being home full time with a newborn was a break in the least for us. We were dead tired, and it was a gigantic adjustment that was more exhausting than any job I've had. To be fair, DW had persistent mastitis lasting beyond two months X(

Haha... not a "break" from work but a break from the housekeeper. Just meaning that we wouldn't have her come while we are home, not that we will suddenly have free time :-). I'm prepared that this will be rough. I know you are never fully prepared, but I think I have somewhat of an idea. Disclosure that I have a brother who has 8 children and I've seen a lot of parenting up close. I'm not expecting rainbows and unicorns... well maybe some rainbows.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on January 05, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Ditto on the mean...almost everyone becomes parents in less than perfect circumstances. You grow together in a process after the child comes. I personally find pot use less offensive than prescription drugs. On the plus side babies are far cheaper than being single in a big city, IMHO...a lot of drinking and outing expenses just go away. If you have money socked away for the adoption that does not get spent, hit your debt with it--student loan first and credit, etc...
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: scrubbyfish on January 05, 2015, 10:12:12 AM
...we live in 760 square feet (!) and there aren't many hidden places. I think I might preemptively start keeping things neat so the housekeeper has less to do and start pointing it out to him on the Tuesdays before she comes. I really do think two adults should be able to keep a 760 square foot house clean. I've actually started on this path by doing the 333 project in my closet to eliminate the pile of clothes that drives him nuts. I didn't get down to 33, but 50 isn't too bad right?

Yep. I'm naturally very messy, which surprises me, and I highly value order and cleanliness. So, I'm like your hubby and you rolled into one :)    I also live with my kid in about 450 sq feet. Key for me is to own as little as possible. If I don't have it, I can't make a mess with it. So, I've got extreme minimalism goin' on. And then, because I have extreme minimalism goin' on, I get to use a Roomba vacuum! That is, with so little in the way, this tool works phenomenally. (I only recommend a high quality one, though. Lower quality ones won't do the job, thus would be a waste of money.) I run her every couple of days while I'm out for a walk. So, all that's left is dishes and wiping countertops, which my kid and I take turns at. I have probably 12 items of clothing (not including socks and underwear).
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: DollarBill on January 05, 2015, 10:12:30 AM
You need a Housekeeper for 750 sqft??
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: rocksinmyhead on January 05, 2015, 10:28:01 AM
I'm sorry to say this and it's going to sound mean, but I'm having trouble understanding how you made it through the home study.  Are you saying a real adoption agency would give a baby to someone that uses drugs as much as your husband does?  That's just insane.  Or did your husband lie to the social workers about his drug use? 

In your shoes, I would stop and ask myself what kind of parent is he really going to be?  Based on what you have said, he's apparently a child himself.  I don't see him being much of a parent, no matter how "nurturing" you think his personality is. 

If you adopt, you will likely be the only parent.  The child will be exposed to and will likely pick up his bad behavior.  If the baby is coming from a home with drug or alcohol issues, your husband will compound the problem that already exists. 

In your shoes, I would not consider adopting until he starts acting like a responsible, non-addicted adult.  And if he does not get there, then either he or the adoption would have to go.

My husband has a prescription for a medication that is completely legal where we live. I think he will make an excellent parent and the social workers agree. We plan on being open about this with birthmothers as well. We certainly wouldn't want someone placing their child in a home where they were uncomfortable with our everyday lives. We don't expect it to be a huge issue.

OHHHHH. hahaha, I FINALLY put together the "organic outdoor grown pharmacy expense" with the fact that you mentioned weed once. I  kept thinking, "what kind of medicine is organic and outdoor grown? some kind of herbal remedy? I wonder if they could find it cheaper online?" even medicinal MJ is probably a million years away from being legalized in OK, so definitely not what came to my mind! :)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: scrubbyfish on January 05, 2015, 10:32:11 AM
Also, +1 to MBot's post. The vast majority of your budget lines are $0 in my life. Your life is different than mine, of course, but my first notice was how many lines of your budget are voluntary/non-essential/unnecessary. But, like you said, you're just starting at this stuff. I would use YNAB, a program that transforms how we see and use money, with tremendous effects achieved. It quickly brought my spending down from more than $3000/mo to about $1100/mo, with very little sense of "sacrifice".

Also, you said a housekeeper is non-negotiable to your hubby. It sounds more to me like a clean house is non-negotiable to your hubby. I think once you get your stuff pared down to the point that cleanliness is unavoidable, he might be very open to letting the housekeeper go. (Did he have one when he was single?)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Imustacheyouaquestion on January 05, 2015, 11:23:43 AM
[Everyone has been so nice so far. This is more like what I was expecting.

[\quote]

I'm not trying to be mean, but I can't think of any item my life that is "non-negotiable" with my SO. If he literally cannot live without all of these expenses (despite many creative solutions proposed on this forum), then I think financial freedom in your future is going to be hard to come by.

Quote
Question for you- do you think I should prioritize paying down the debt (TSP loan and student loan) before retirement? Or, it seems you are suggesting to find that money is this mass of excess?
[\quote]

You need to run some numbers with loan calculators to figure this one out. Unbury.us is a good start. I wouldn't drop your TSP down below the 5% match under any circumstance.

Quote
And finally, the "everything else including cash and atm" should be familiar to most Mint users and is really just an artifact of the kind of spending that I see come up at the end of the month that totally baffles me.
[\quote]

You can recategorize ATM transactions and/or add cash transactions manually (either via web or the Mint app). My point is $200/mo is not a small amount and maybe tracking it a bit more closely will help you identify an opportunity for savings!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 05, 2015, 09:44:32 PM
You need a Housekeeper for 750 sqft??

I agree that it is ridiculous. We had one for our 500 sqft apartment too. It's actually amazing how messy a space can get when you have 1200sqt worth of stuff in 750 sqft worth of space. I think minimalism might be part of my answer here.

Also, you said a housekeeper is non-negotiable to your hubby. It sounds more to me like a clean house is non-negotiable to your hubby. I think once you get your stuff pared down to the point that cleanliness is unavoidable, he might be very open to letting the housekeeper go. (Did he have one when he was single?)

THIS. What a  good way to reframe it, making the cleaning my responsibility. Nice call. He did not have a housekeeper when we didn't live together. He actually used to come to my apartment and clean it when we were still friends (before we even thought of dating). So he has always despised my slovenliness. He just had more tolerance for it when he didn't have to live in it. 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: scrubbyfish on January 05, 2015, 10:03:19 PM
He did not have a housekeeper when we didn't live together. He actually used to come to my apartment and clean it when we were still friends (before we even thought of dating). So he has always despised my slovenliness. He just had more tolerance for it when he didn't have to live in it.

Strawberry :)  Your honesty is going to get you very, very far in your journey to advance your finances. It's a joy to read you. You're going to do beautifully, I believe!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: rocksinmyhead on January 06, 2015, 07:06:14 AM
You need a Housekeeper for 750 sqft??

I agree that it is ridiculous. We had one for our 500 sqft apartment too. It's actually amazing how messy a space can get when you have 1200sqt worth of stuff in 750 sqft worth of space. I think minimalism might be part of my answer here.

Absolutely! I am trying to get there with us, too... getting rid of stuff so it is easier to stay tidy. I'm not naturally a super tidy person, and my bf is about the same, maybe a little messier, yet being in messy spaces makes me really anxious and crabby, so I want to be able to keep our home as tidy as possible with a minimum of effort, and I think that totally means getting rid of unnecessary crap!

He did not have a housekeeper when we didn't live together. He actually used to come to my apartment and clean it when we were still friends (before we even thought of dating). So he has always despised my slovenliness. He just had more tolerance for it when he didn't have to live in it.

Strawberry :)  Your honesty is going to get you very, very far in your journey to advance your finances. It's a joy to read you. You're going to do beautifully, I believe!

Agreed! Also I just want to say I love your comments, scrubbyfish... you are really good at getting to the heart of things but in the kindest way possible, which I think is a great skill :)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: scrubbyfish on January 06, 2015, 09:24:45 AM
Agreed! Also I just want to say I love your comments, scrubbyfish... you are really good at getting to the heart of things but in the kindest way possible, which I think is a great skill :)

Thank you, rocksinmyhead!!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: snshijuptr on January 06, 2015, 09:38:35 AM
As to the smoking, have him look into the effects of third-hand smoke. My daughter was born premature, and at 2 years old, my husband is still not allowed to hold her if he has a cigar. After reading up on third hand smoke, he gave up all smoking until our kids are 5 years old. Third hand smoke applies to all smoke (tobacco, weed, fires). They are all bad for developing lungs.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: frugaliknowit on January 06, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
Back of the envelope calculation (all, feel free to correct me...):

House value $360,000
80% LTV needed to kill PMI:  288,000
Shortage (306-288):  18,000
Annual PMI:  311 * 12 = 3732

Return on paying off PMI today:  3732/18,000= 21%

If you simply lay off the maid and apply the $260 per month toward the mortgage balance, you'll be at $288K in around 69 months (5 years/9months).  Add in some of the great savings others have suggested and you'll set your self on fire!!

Tough Hug:  Cleaning lady?  When you've got PMI and a student loan?  I don't think so!!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Elisabeth on January 06, 2015, 10:55:55 AM
Maybe I am off the mark, but -

My western european ex boyfriend seemed to believe the future was much rosier than it was, because of his view of what the government "should" and "would" provide when he stopped working. Any chance your husband has an overly optimistic view of government-provided retirement benefits in the US?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: DollarBill on January 06, 2015, 11:14:35 AM
Back of the envelope calculation (all, feel free to correct me...):

House value $360,000
80% LTV needed to kill PMI:  288,000
Shortage (306-288):  18,000
Annual PMI:  311 * 12 = 3732

Return on paying off PMI today:  3732/18,000= 21%

If you simply lay off the maid and apply the $260 per month toward the mortgage balance, you'll be at $288K in around 69 months (5 years/9months).  Add in some of the great savings others have suggested and you'll set your self on fire!!

Tough Hug:  Cleaning lady?  When you've got PMI and a student loan?  I don't think so!!

It would be less then that because your not counting for regular payments. But she did say it was done in 2017 because there was a 5 yr minimum for the PMI.

One way round it might be to pay down the loan to $288K then do a refi.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: TrMama on January 06, 2015, 12:06:18 PM
Lots of good advice so far.

Have you tried meal planning? It's a super easy way to both bring down grocery and restaurant costs while simplifying your life with a new human. We also live in a HCOL area (I think your condo is cheap ;-) and I spend $600/mo to feed 4 people.

When we had our first daughter, the restaurant and shopping expenses literally evaporated overnight. Who wants to go shopping (or be in a restaurant) with a little person who may begin screaming or puking at any moment?

As for the smoking, would it help you to be matched sooner if you were both non-smokers? I can't help but think that if I were a birth mother and had a big pool of similar sounding couples to choose from, that I'd be more inclined to choose a couple who didn't smoke. However, maybe my asthma and collection of family members with lung cancer and COPD make me more biased?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: mm1970 on January 06, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
You can train yourself to be less slovenly. I  used to be the messiest one between my husband and me.

Now I'd say I'm the neatest of the four of us, because disorder drives me batty.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: lifejoy on January 06, 2015, 12:55:21 PM
Minimalist sites that I like: zenhabits.net, theminimalists.com, becomingminimalist.com
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: PloddingInsight on January 06, 2015, 01:12:16 PM
Can you find another government job that you like, only in a different location?

If you are making $87k and living in 750 square feet, you should have no problem with your husband becoming a stay-at-home dad in an area with normal property values.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Paul der Krake on January 06, 2015, 01:26:18 PM
I agree that a house cleaner for 750 sqft is beyond ridiculous. I live in one and it takes me under 30 minutes to vacuum everywhere, dust, bleach the bathroom, reorganize the pantry, and drink my celebratory beer.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Pootie22 on January 06, 2015, 07:12:52 PM
You mentioned he already has his medical prescription and is still spending $230 a month.  Why not suggest to him to grow his own, it's perfectly legal once you have the prescription and it is EXTREMELY easy and would cost him next to nothing after buying a few supplies. If he already home brews some alcohol (which takes WAY more work) I think it would be easy to convince him to grow his own medicine.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Imustacheyouaquestion on January 06, 2015, 08:00:48 PM
Can you find another government job that you like, only in a different location?

If you are making $87k and living in 750 square feet, you should have no problem with your husband becoming a stay-at-home dad in an area with normal property values.

$87k is a high step GS-11 or a GS-12 in the SF Bay area. Fed salaries have a built in locality adjustment, so the same grade position in a lower cost of living area would likely pay low-mid 60s.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 06, 2015, 08:57:16 PM
Can you find another government job that you like, only in a different location?

If you are making $87k and living in 750 square feet, you should have no problem with your husband becoming a stay-at-home dad in an area with normal property values.

$87k is a high step GS-11 or a GS-12 in the SF Bay area. Fed salaries have a built in locality adjustment, so the same grade position in a lower cost of living area would likely pay low-mid 60s.

Yep and my job is super location dependent. I can tell you that I am one of the highest paid people I know in my field. Most folks who do our job do it out of love and sacrifice a lot to make it work. My husband's salary is on the high side of typical as well. Did I mention how fortunate we are? Also, I think we could leave much more cheaply here. Yes, the COL is high but we haven't been trying all that hard.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 06, 2015, 09:00:24 PM
You mentioned he already has his medical prescription and is still spending $230 a month.  Why not suggest to him to grow his own, it's perfectly legal once you have the prescription and it is EXTREMELY easy and would cost him next to nothing after buying a few supplies. If he already home brews some alcohol (which takes WAY more work) I think it would be easy to convince him to grow his own medicine.

Great idea and usually very satisfying for him as a hobby. He's been growing his own for about 3 years but this year he messed something up and it's not good I guess. I wouldn't know because I've never tried it, but he tells me it's no good. When he was successful at it, that expense was much smaller and completely eliminated in October-December. I'll keep encouraging his green thumb.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 06, 2015, 09:04:55 PM
Maybe I am off the mark, but -

My western european ex boyfriend seemed to believe the future was much rosier than it was, because of his view of what the government "should" and "would" provide when he stopped working. Any chance your husband has an overly optimistic view of government-provided retirement benefits in the US?

You're definitely on the mark here and he has a very generous defined benefit retirement to boot, so the European model actually works for him. AND, he has reason to expect inheritance so I think he just thinks everything will work out in the end. I'm more interested in FI sooner though.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on January 06, 2015, 09:07:23 PM

He did not have a housekeeper when we didn't live together. He actually used to come to my apartment and clean it when we were still friends (before we even thought of dating). So he has always despised my slovenliness. He just had more tolerance for it when he didn't have to live in it.

Strawberry :)  Your honesty is going to get you very, very far in your journey to advance your finances. It's a joy to read you. You're going to do beautifully, I believe!



Thank you so much! That means a lot to me and makes me want to succeed so I can come back here and tell you all about it.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: frugalfedmom on January 07, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
Most people seem to be focusing on the cleaning service or prescription drugs, but if those are non-negotiable, I would try to shave another few hundred off of your expenses from other stuff (groceries, cash, clothes, etc), and adding that to your $1400 "leftover" money, I would try to kill the $16k student loan or $18k mortgage shortage (or both!) to free up the extra ~$300 (each) you're spending on those. If you're aggressive enough, you may be able to pay off one of them in less than a year, maybe both in 1.5 yrs. I echo what a previous poster said about paying down your mortgage and refinancing so you cut out that PMI before 2017. Even if you get rid of one of these payments before the baby arrives, it'll probably put you in a much better spot stress-wise.

As a fellow fed with a staggering amount of studen loans myself, I've been trying to put every cent into my student loan...it's hard especially since like you, I'm pretty new to this, and my husband is still a student (working toward going into academia...and not super mustachian although he kind of has to be now because he's a student...I guess we're actually very similar!) but I will be so happy to see those monthly payments gone and I can add that to savings!

I do applaud you for maxing out your tsp and already owning your home (those are two things I haven't been able to do yet)! However, you mentioned your husband hates his job and you'd love to have him be a SAHD once the baby comes - have you considered the following?

My calculations might be off, but if you aggressively pay off your student loan ($330), get rid of your PMI ($311), get rid of your cleaning lady since if your hubby's home he can do the cleaning ($260), shave a bit more off your monthly expenses here and there (including your husband's commuting costs), that is a potential savings of over $1000/month so your monthly expenses would fall below $4300. If you do this and maybe cut your tsp contributions to less than the maximum, it may be possible for your husband to quit and stay home. You wouldn't even need to worry about daycare since he'd be home. I say this because I make a similar amount as you, and am putting 7% into my TSP and I take home about $4600/month (I'm also paying back a TSP loan). Obviously you wouldn't have a huge cushion in this situation, but your husband would be happier, your baby would be happy, and you'd probably be happier knowing your baby's in good hands and your house will be clean :) Also, whatever promotions you get after that could be funneled straight to your TSP to increase the retirement funds.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: TerriM on January 07, 2015, 01:43:53 PM
I'm sorry to say this and it's going to sound mean, but I'm having trouble understanding how you made it through the home study.  Are you saying a real adoption agency would give a baby to someone that uses drugs as much as your husband does?  That's just insane.  Or did your husband lie to the social workers about his drug use? 

In your shoes, I would stop and ask myself what kind of parent is he really going to be?  Based on what you have said, he's apparently a child himself.  I don't see him being much of a parent, no matter how "nurturing" you think his personality is. 

If you adopt, you will likely be the only parent.  The child will be exposed to and will likely pick up his bad behavior.  If the baby is coming from a home with drug or alcohol issues, your husband will compound the problem that already exists. 

In your shoes, I would not consider adopting until he starts acting like a responsible, non-addicted adult.  And if he does not get there, then either he or the adoption would have to go.

My husband has a prescription for a medication that is completely legal where we live. I think he will make an excellent parent and the social workers agree. We plan on being open about this with birthmothers as well. We certainly wouldn't want someone placing their child in a home where they were uncomfortable with our everyday lives. We don't expect it to be a huge issue.

OHHHHH. hahaha, I FINALLY put together the "organic outdoor grown pharmacy expense" with the fact that you mentioned weed once. I  kept thinking, "what kind of medicine is organic and outdoor grown? some kind of herbal remedy? I wonder if they could find it cheaper online?" even medicinal MJ is probably a million years away from being legalized in OK, so definitely not what came to my mind! :)

I didn't pick it up either.

Recommend he ditch the cigs if he's already smoking something else.  And if he doesn't need the weed, stop that too.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: LadyStache on January 07, 2015, 01:49:33 PM
As a fellow fed with a staggering amount of studen loans myself, I've been trying to put every cent into my student loan...it's hard especially since like you, I'm pretty new to this, and my husband is still a student (working toward going into academia...and not super mustachian although he kind of has to be now because he's a student...I guess we're actually very similar!) but I will be so happy to see those monthly payments gone and I can add that to savings!

I would consider paying only the min on the student loans since the balance gets forgiven after 10 years as a federal employee.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: frugalfedmom on January 07, 2015, 02:32:11 PM
Usually at 16k you end up paying it off way before you reach ten years. I plan to do this with my fed student loan of about $100k but my hubs has a large private loan we need to kill first.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: jbfishing on February 04, 2015, 08:02:08 AM
I think everybody has been too nice in their responses.  You've both developed expensive habits but roughly half of those will dissappear when your husband dies from a lifetime of smoking, and probably before the baby graduates high school.  Will you inherit his pension or some other benefit?  Frankly, from a financial and health standpoint you'd be better off.  There should be absolutely no excuse for smoking around the baby.  This should be non-negotiable.  You might even be one of the many parents of an asthmatic child and then you'll question whether the smoking caused it or contributed to it. 

Your husband sounds very selfish in spending, health effects on others (you),  and in lack of planning.  Your pressing forward to bring a baby into the situation makes you selfish also.  This is clearly not a surprise baby so why has there been so little advance planning? Especially by your husband?  Is this a sign that maybe he's not into having a baby as much as you are?  Raising a child is much easier when you're working together as a team.  It is time for your husband to show some action.

 Do wish you good luck and I hope your husband come around sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: CommonCents on February 04, 2015, 08:31:52 AM
As for the smoking, would it help you to be matched sooner if you were both non-smokers? I can't help but think that if I were a birth mother and had a big pool of similar sounding couples to choose from, that I'd be more inclined to choose a couple who didn't smoke. However, maybe my asthma and collection of family members with lung cancer and COPD make me more biased?

Yeah, I would think this too.  I'll also say - those that might not care might be smokers themselves.  Not to say those kids don't need parents, but just FYI so you are prepared for a baby with those medical issues.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Stash Engineer on February 04, 2015, 09:33:09 AM
There are a lot of good responses here, so I'll try not to repeat too many of them.  It sounds like you have made some good progress, but I think you still have lots of opportunity to improve.

-I know the housekeeping thing has been beaten to death but I feel like I need to add this for emphasis:  Cancel the housekeeping RIGHT NOW and clean your own 750 sq ft house.  I'm a naturally messy person and my wife is the clean one.  In an effort to keep the peace, I help her clean our 1800+ sq ft house every Sunday morning.  It only takes a couple hours tops to clean the whole house top to bottom.  We also have 2 kids (1 and 5 yrs) and kids are just plain messy.  You need to make this a priority.  Write it in your calender if you have to!  Two people (even one person) should be able to clean a 750 sq ft house in NO TIME!  Stop making excuses and do it!  The suggestion to get rid of excess 'stuff' in your life is a good one and will speed up your housekeeping too.

-Simplify your life as much as possible.  That infant, when it does come, is going to flip your world and your routine upside down.  The less clutter you have in your life and in your mind, the better.

-You still spend too much on groceries for 2 people - especially with the $ you spend on resturants.  I spend $520/month to feed a family of 4. 

-You spend $4600 on clothing and $1000 on books last year?  Holy #!$%!  You must have the biggest closet ever or very expensive tastes in clothing.  I bet you have clothes hanging in your closet that still have the tags on them.  Do you really need more clothes anytime soon?  Excessive spending in general needs to drop dramatically. 

-There's no reason you should have two cars.  From your posts, it sounds like there is an emotional attachment issue.  I used to be very guilty of getting emotionally attached to vehicles and being very irrational about keeping them and spending WAY more money on them than any normal person ever should.  Unless you can find a financial reason to keep both (highly doubtful), it's time to let one go. 

I'll echo what swick said about there being some underlying emotional/stress issues.  You and your hubby need to work out some compromises on a few topics and figure out some common financial goals to work towards.  Cutting costs is a tough enough by yourself, but when you are trying to make lifestyle changes that affect your spouse also, it is critical that you are both on board.  Maybe you are the one doing all the planning and tracking, but you don't want him to resent you for it.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: davef on February 04, 2015, 02:10:26 PM
I would focus your efforts on Shot term goals. Getting rid of your PMI would likely have a very good return on investment. Read the details of what you are locked into, make sure it is paid off by 2017. Figure out what extra monthly principle payment this will take and start making it ($1400) at a time for right now. When the baby arrives try to cut back other places before touching this.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on February 21, 2015, 11:24:40 PM
I agree with the PMI as lowish hanging fruit...after reading some of the more judgemental views can I mention the elephant in the room? Which is this: If Strawberry is adopting a baby, the baby might have been taken from it's biological parents for exactly those things that her husband is doing...the difference being that she's a Fed, they're earning a lot more, and in theory their living situation has been checked out as safer.
But I want to point out the moral hazard here..and how this should be acknowledged in order to move forward here....
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: surfhb on February 22, 2015, 12:12:15 AM
Pffsst!!!   I say you just cut out the cigarettes and keep enjoying your spending the way it is now.   

I say this because if he continues to smoke he will die a slow and horrible death.... That's just a fact.    Not to mention the toll it's taking on you currently and your future child. 

You guys make a decent living, have a good savings already.   Once he stops smoking and his lungs heal years from now, you can then start think of cutting cost and truly be badass.

This sounds awful but the odds of him being alive before your child graduates high school is somewhat slim If he continues to smoke weed and cigs.    It's time for him to grow up and you need to explain to him what you require in this relationship

Btw.... I used to smoke weed and cigs too :)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on February 22, 2015, 12:36:55 AM
Pffsst!!!   I say you just cut out the cigarettes and keep enjoying your spending the way it is now.   

I say this because if he continues to smoke he will die a slow and horrible death.... That's just a fact.    Not to mention the toll it's taking on you currently and your future child. 

You guys make a decent living, have a good savings already.   Once he stops smoking and his lungs heal years from now, you can then start think of cutting cost and truly be badass.

This sounds awful but the odds of him being alive before your child graduates high school is somewhat slim If he continues to smoke weed and cigs.    It's time for him to grow up and you need to explain to him what you require in this relationship

Btw.... I used to smoke weed and cigs too :)

That's a little harsh...assuming hubby is in his 30's, that means he's dead by his early 50's. My aunt was a chain smoker and certainly cut 20-30 years off her life, but still made it to her late 60's...not that I'm encouraging smoking but why get all preachy cause a kid is involved?
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Argyle on February 22, 2015, 12:50:04 AM
You ask if anyone pays less than $50 a month for car insurance -- I pay $21 a month.  Old car (but not as old as 1991), minimal insurance, drive it less than 3000 miles per year.  But the biggest difference is that I only have one car.  Two cars doubles not only the insurance, but the taxes, the oil changes, the new tires when they're needed, the little mechanical things that go wrong...  Getting rid of one of your cars is low-hanging fruit there.

However, I do notice that with most of the suggestions here, you give lengthy reasons why you can't change that aspect.  I know many of those things feel unchangeable.  That's why you don't have more savings and more cushion.  Moving into a new realm of financial security means changing a number of the things that we may have originally regarded as non-negotiable.    The question is: which do you want more?  To hang on to those habits, or to have a good financial cushion?  The choice is up to you.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: surfhb on February 22, 2015, 12:55:42 AM
She indicated he is 47 and has been smoking for 35 years. 

I'm just laying out the facts for her to consider....but preachy is a better term :)

Btw..... When will there be time to smoke if he's a SAHD?    Is he going to put the kid in a carrier on the outside porch?     Really your only issue is the smoking.    The rest is just typical middle class spending....stuff people spend money on and retire comfortably in their 60s.    He won't see retirement if he continues. 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: KD on February 22, 2015, 08:17:10 AM
Good on you for being here and taking it on the chin as the face punches have come.  I'd have to answer YES to your titular question, you are using spouse's untouchables as an excuse, and as you've already nicely admitted you responded in tit-for-tat type overreaction spending in retaliation.  Luckily you had the $s.  And even luckier is you've seen the error of your ways and are trying to make a correction.  GREAT JOB so far.

I'll touch on two things as everyone else has already given you good advice if you'll get out your HARD LOOK glasses and put some numbers on paper for you and your husband to go over. 

1)The age difference - those not in one of these marriages may not consider that PERHAPS you are acquiescing way too easily based on his more advanced age & supposed maturity.  I fell into that trap myself in a May/December-ish type marriage - ours is a 13 year difference.  I deferred my opinions to his 'more mature' viewpoint a few more times than was fiscally responsible.  Money is emotional and in marriage we often don't want to rock the boat.  Figure out HOW to bring him forward in a way that works for him AND YOU.  If that means he needs to see the numbers written down, do it.  Give him 3 differing budget scenarios to look at and go over with you.  Your need to plan is important to you.  Just as his to drink/drug/smoke is to him.  Into every life a little rain must fall. 

I would come at it from the angle of his getting to Retire WAYYYYYYYY Earlier if he'd make some sacrifices now.  It appears that you are in more need of the security of Financial Independence?  ...as it appears you want to continue in the workforce to full retirement age?  Define your own mission.  Draft a proposed one for him, let him correct you on points you are mistaken on.  Perhaps he is relying on that inheritance money?  If he came from a wealthy family perhaps he needs a re-adjustment of his money habits?  Here you may point out that an inheritance is a possibility, not a certainty, and that you need to plan for a fall-back position as if it never came through.  Combine the 2 mission statements into a family one.  Written, that you can both agree to and revisit at ongoing family financial meetings. 

2)Smoking - my Hubs used to smoke.  He used 'Ondamed' to quit.  It sounds all hocus-pocusy to ME, however, it worked for him at a relative minimal cost and he'd smoked about 40 years.  He did have to go back in for multiple treatments (maybe two or three altogether) but it did work.  He just passed his 5 year no-smoking anniversary.  Do a google on it - worth traveling for if not in your area.  Mine smoked outside after giving me bronchitis several years running. 

Good luck and let us hear how it goes! 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: green daisy on February 22, 2015, 09:19:39 AM
Is your husband at all interested in quitting smoking?  My husband quit when our daughter was an infant after having smoked since he was 15.  He used Chantix, which was brand new on the market at the time.  It worked really well and he has now been a non-smoker for 10 years.  He had tried a few other methods previously and failed.  But in his case, he had a strong desire to quit. 

I don't have any experience with smoking weed, but with regards to him being a SAHD, wouldn't that affect his ability to competently care for a child? 
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: mm1970 on February 22, 2015, 05:19:19 PM
Pffsst!!!   I say you just cut out the cigarettes and keep enjoying your spending the way it is now.   

I say this because if he continues to smoke he will die a slow and horrible death.... That's just a fact.    Not to mention the toll it's taking on you currently and your future child. 

You guys make a decent living, have a good savings already.   Once he stops smoking and his lungs heal years from now, you can then start think of cutting cost and truly be badass.

This sounds awful but the odds of him being alive before your child graduates high school is somewhat slim If he continues to smoke weed and cigs.    It's time for him to grow up and you need to explain to him what you require in this relationship

Btw.... I used to smoke weed and cigs too :)
My dad smoked as long as I knew him.  Lived to be (almost) 82 and died of an aneurysm.  Pretty quick and out, only a few hours before he was gone.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: wtjbatman on February 22, 2015, 05:50:11 PM
Maybe he has quit smoking cigs and weed within the last month and a half since she's posted.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Rosbif on February 23, 2015, 01:56:33 AM
The only bit I caught from this whole thread was that an ITALIAN doesn't want to be seen on a BICYCLE. A FUCKING ITALIAN?? The country of Bartali, Coppi, Gimondi, Moser and Cipollini? He should be ashamed...

But more seriously, you are clearly headed in the right direction, and you're getting loads of good advice (especially about not smoking). My contribution is on the housekeeper. If a housekeeper is the only way to ensure peace reigns at home, then fine. I'm happy working another two years to ensure that every one of the many years between now and then is a peaceful one!

(we have a weekly cleaner for 700sqft)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Strawberry on June 28, 2015, 11:03:40 AM
I think everybody has been too nice in their responses.  You've both developed expensive habits but roughly half of those will dissappear when your husband dies from a lifetime of smoking, and probably before the baby graduates high school.  Will you inherit his pension or some other benefit?  Frankly, from a financial and health standpoint you'd be better off.  There should be absolutely no excuse for smoking around the baby.  This should be non-negotiable.  You might even be one of the many parents of an asthmatic child and then you'll question whether the smoking caused it or contributed to it. 

Your husband sounds very selfish in spending, health effects on others (you),  and in lack of planning.  Your pressing forward to bring a baby into the situation makes you selfish also.  This is clearly not a surprise baby so why has there been so little advance planning? Especially by your husband?  Is this a sign that maybe he's not into having a baby as much as you are?  Raising a child is much easier when you're working together as a team.  It is time for your husband to show some action.

 Do wish you good luck and I hope your husband come around sooner rather than later.

Back with an update and since you're one of the most straightforward about the smoking, I've quoted you. My husband has no plans to smoke around the baby, but I've convinced him that even the smoke on his clothes is harmful. He has never smoked in the house (gross!) and I find it odd that people assume that he does. Do people really do that? Anyway, I think he's really trying to quit these days and has cut down substantially.

Update 1 - We got rid of the housekeeper at my insistence and the house is MUCH cleaner these days. I've apparently changed in the last 6 years and am able to pitch in when I know I have to. He's happy and seems more willing to go all in for this FI thing since I've stepped up.

Update 2-  I'm pregnant for keeps this time, so the adoption will come AFTER bio baby. For those of you concerned about children being taken from drug-using homes and being placed in ours, we were not planning to foster adopt. It would be domestic infant adoption and we would obvoiusly tell the birth mother about what goes on in our house, since she would have a long-term relationship with us. There would be no way to hide the weed habit, nor any desire to do so. He's not ashamed and neither am I.

Update 3- We have consitently gotten our groceries below $500/ month since I've taken over grocery shopping.

I appreciate everyone's advice a lot. Some folks are judgemental, sure, but I tend to agree with a lot of it. My husband should really quit smoking, but (I may have mentioned this before) his family is super long-lived and its hard to convince him he's going to die early. Both his grandfathers (and one grandmother) smoked their entire lives and lived well into their 90s. I watched my gandmother die of lung cancer at 69 and I can't imagine going through the same with my husband. I hope he's right about this and I'm wrong. In the event that I'm not, of course I get his pension and his life insurance and his inheritence, which I would give zero shits about at that point. I love him way way more than I desire financial independence.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: arebelspy on June 28, 2015, 01:45:21 PM
As to the smoking, have him look into the effects of third-hand smoke. My daughter was born premature, and at 2 years old, my husband is still not allowed to hold her if he has a cigar. After reading up on third hand smoke, he gave up all smoking until our kids are 5 years old. Third hand smoke applies to all smoke (tobacco, weed, fires). They are all bad for developing lungs.

Sorry, can't let FUD stand without commenting, cause that's how ignorance spreads. Medical research is dubious that second hand smoke is even damaging.  "Third hand smoke" is definitely *.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: little_brown_dog on June 28, 2015, 02:04:19 PM
good for you with the changes and congrats on the pregnancy!

you are moving in the right direction with the food expenses. for groceries, as a couple also living in an expensive area, we spend about $325-$350 a month, even now with me being major preggo and eating more than usual.  This budget allows us to include organic fruit and veggies, almond milk, cereal, cheese, yogurt and other expensive foods. I'd say >50% of the food we buy is organic and/or humane certified which is important to us. Honestly, the biggest keys to our success in keeping our costs relatively low and still buying organic, whole foods is eating vegetarian and meal planning. If you are meat eaters but aren't attached to a meat-heavy diet, try limiting meat dishes to a couple nights a week for savings (it shocks me how much even cheap meat costs, let alone high quality meat from responsible farms). Try writing out all the meals you want to make Sun-Sat. Only plan meals that use ingredients you currently have, or require you to buy the fewest ingredients, and stick to that ingredient list (it's easy to blow $25+ on random snack items). Eye recipes critically - if the recipe calls for 3 types of spices/herbs and you already have 2 of the 3 on hand, do you really need to buy that last spice? Probably not. Don't be afraid to substitute similar ingredients - if a recipe calls for summer squash but you have a zucchini on hand (or if zucc is cheaper at the store), use that instead.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: scrubbyfish on June 28, 2015, 03:24:18 PM
I love when people update! I think that's very respectful of the people who put time and thought into responding to an OP, as well as encouraging for readers in general. So, thanks for doing so, and I was delighted with the contents!

Great work on resolving the housekeeping matter without keeping a housekeeper. An excellent point you made in there about how we change, so it's worth regularly checking in on our "necessities" (and even wants).
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: johnny847 on June 28, 2015, 05:09:22 PM
As to the smoking, have him look into the effects of third-hand smoke. My daughter was born premature, and at 2 years old, my husband is still not allowed to hold her if he has a cigar. After reading up on third hand smoke, he gave up all smoking until our kids are 5 years old. Third hand smoke applies to all smoke (tobacco, weed, fires). They are all bad for developing lungs.

Sorry, can't let FUD stand without commenting, cause that's how ignorance spreads. Medical research is dubious that second hand smoke is even damaging.  "Third hand smoke" is definitely *.
Yup. The research I've seen is that detrimental effects of second hand smoke have only been shown in indoor environments or standing right next to a smoker outside over a period of years (close to at least a decade)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Mr Dumpster Stache on June 28, 2015, 07:03:32 PM
Quote
Update 2-  I'm pregnant for keeps this time,

Congratulations! Babies are awesome. :)
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: JetsettingWelfareMom on September 17, 2015, 05:08:55 PM
I think everybody has been too nice in their responses.  You've both developed expensive habits but roughly half of those will dissappear when your husband dies from a lifetime of smoking, and probably before the baby graduates high school.  Will you inherit his pension or some other benefit?  Frankly, from a financial and health standpoint you'd be better off.  There should be absolutely no excuse for smoking around the baby.  This should be non-negotiable.  You might even be one of the many parents of an asthmatic child and then you'll question whether the smoking caused it or contributed to it. 

Your husband sounds very selfish in spending, health effects on others (you),  and in lack of planning.  Your pressing forward to bring a baby into the situation makes you selfish also.  This is clearly not a surprise baby so why has there been so little advance planning? Especially by your husband?  Is this a sign that maybe he's not into having a baby as much as you are?  Raising a child is much easier when you're working together as a team.  It is time for your husband to show some action.

 Do wish you good luck and I hope your husband come around sooner rather than later.

Back with an update and since you're one of the most straightforward about the smoking, I've quoted you. My husband has no plans to smoke around the baby, but I've convinced him that even the smoke on his clothes is harmful. He has never smoked in the house (gross!) and I find it odd that people assume that he does. Do people really do that? Anyway, I think he's really trying to quit these days and has cut down substantially.

Update 1 - We got rid of the housekeeper at my insistence and the house is MUCH cleaner these days. I've apparently changed in the last 6 years and am able to pitch in when I know I have to. He's happy and seems more willing to go all in for this FI thing since I've stepped up.

Update 2-  I'm pregnant for keeps this time, so the adoption will come AFTER bio baby. For those of you concerned about children being taken from drug-using homes and being placed in ours, we were not planning to foster adopt. It would be domestic infant adoption and we would obvoiusly tell the birth mother about what goes on in our house, since she would have a long-term relationship with us. There would be no way to hide the weed habit, nor any desire to do so. He's not ashamed and neither am I.

Update 3- We have consitently gotten our groceries below $500/ month since I've taken over grocery shopping.

I appreciate everyone's advice a lot. Some folks are judgemental, sure, but I tend to agree with a lot of it. My husband should really quit smoking, but (I may have mentioned this before) his family is super long-lived and its hard to convince him he's going to die early. Both his grandfathers (and one grandmother) smoked their entire lives and lived well into their 90s. I watched my gandmother die of lung cancer at 69 and I can't imagine going through the same with my husband. I hope he's right about this and I'm wrong. In the event that I'm not, of course I get his pension and his life insurance and his inheritence, which I would give zero shits about at that point. I love him way way more than I desire financial independence.

Congrats on the pregnancy! Thanks for the updates even if I'm slow responding I always like to see how things are when I take the time to put my two cents in. :-P We know smoking is bad but I think it's really overly vilified in the USA...people in European countries smoke more yet have better health overall. I think stressful environments, prescription drugs and fast food are bad for babies too but folks here are oddly more silent on those things.
I'm really happy that you want open communication with the birth mother if and when you do adopt--it's something I always wanted to look into. I've sometimes considered being a foster parent but the more I read about it, the more the slow grinding wheels of bureaucracy turned me off. It sounded a lot like my husband's visa where a lot of big promises on how quick and easy it was going to be would turn into a seething hornet's nest. So my comment about your husband's smoking marijuana wasn't an indictment of his habit so much as it was an observation of how ass backwards things in the USA can be sometimes...I think it's better than any of the alternatives for pain but glad you stand by him...
A child will change your habits and your budget in profound ways. Enjoy the journey!
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: eliza on September 17, 2015, 09:15:52 PM
I'm sorry to say this and it's going to sound mean, but I'm having trouble understanding how you made it through the home study.  Are you saying a real adoption agency would give a baby to someone that uses drugs as much as your husband does?  That's just insane.  Or did your husband lie to the social workers about his drug use? 

In your shoes, I would stop and ask myself what kind of parent is he really going to be?  Based on what you have said, he's apparently a child himself.  I don't see him being much of a parent, no matter how "nurturing" you think his personality is. 

If you adopt, you will likely be the only parent.  The child will be exposed to and will likely pick up his bad behavior.  If the baby is coming from a home with drug or alcohol issues, your husband will compound the problem that already exists. 

In your shoes, I would not consider adopting until he starts acting like a responsible, non-addicted adult.  And if he does not get there, then either he or the adoption would have to go.

My husband has a prescription for a medication that is completely legal where we live. I think he will make an excellent parent and the social workers agree. We plan on being open about this with birthmothers as well. We certainly wouldn't want someone placing their child in a home where they were uncomfortable with our everyday lives. We don't expect it to be a huge issue.

I want to both reassure you and offer a word of caution.

I don't think that smoking (weed or cigarettes) makes your husband a bad father.  My own father was known to smoke a bit of both as a child and I like to think he didn't screw me up too much.

But, a word of warning, although medicinal marijuana may be legal under state law (I'm unfamiliar with CA law in specific, but am assuming that he is complying with all state rules), it remains illegal under federal law.   The DOJ has chosen not to pursue prosecution in most cases where a grower, distributor, or purchaser is operating in compliance with a state law (Cole Memorandum), but that is policy not law and could change based on the political climate.  And, as a federal employee, you are prohibited from indulging (it sounds like you don't, anyways) as a condition of employment.   

My personal opinion is that the risk is low for a purchaser or for someone growing for personal use only, but it is still a risk and it would be smart to consider back-up plans in the event something goes wrong.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: eliza on September 17, 2015, 09:27:43 PM
Back with an update and since you're one of the most straightforward about the smoking, I've quoted you. My husband has no plans to smoke around the baby, but I've convinced him that even the smoke on his clothes is harmful. He has never smoked in the house (gross!) and I find it odd that people assume that he does. Do people really do that? Anyway, I think he's really trying to quit these days and has cut down substantially.

Update 1 - We got rid of the housekeeper at my insistence and the house is MUCH cleaner these days. I've apparently changed in the last 6 years and am able to pitch in when I know I have to. He's happy and seems more willing to go all in for this FI thing since I've stepped up.

Update 2-  I'm pregnant for keeps this time, so the adoption will come AFTER bio baby. For those of you concerned about children being taken from drug-using homes and being placed in ours, we were not planning to foster adopt. It would be domestic infant adoption and we would obvoiusly tell the birth mother about what goes on in our house, since she would have a long-term relationship with us. There would be no way to hide the weed habit, nor any desire to do so. He's not ashamed and neither am I.

Update 3- We have consitently gotten our groceries below $500/ month since I've taken over grocery shopping.

I appreciate everyone's advice a lot. Some folks are judgemental, sure, but I tend to agree with a lot of it. My husband should really quit smoking, but (I may have mentioned this before) his family is super long-lived and its hard to convince him he's going to die early. Both his grandfathers (and one grandmother) smoked their entire lives and lived well into their 90s. I watched my gandmother die of lung cancer at 69 and I can't imagine going through the same with my husband. I hope he's right about this and I'm wrong. In the event that I'm not, of course I get his pension and his life insurance and his inheritence, which I would give zero shits about at that point. I love him way way more than I desire financial independence.

UGH.  This is why I should read all the way until the end of the thread instead of most of the way before replying.

1) Congratulations on your pregnancy.  I wish you and baby a healthy pregnancy and delivery.
2) Good job on getting some of your spending under control.
3) If you have the time and inclination, I encourage you to post an updated budget and financial snapshot.  Now that a baby is imminent, there might be more helpful suggestions folks on the forum can make as you continue to optimize your financial situation.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: MrsPete on September 18, 2015, 07:57:49 AM
In short, yes, I hear lots of excuses.  You seem willing to consider them for what they are, and that'll help you get rid of these problem spots. 
When you are evaluating purchases/services a really great way to look at it is by using Eric'as chart. It is simple but a great way to get to the "why" behind your spending decisions.
http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html (http://www.nwedible.com/2012/10/mini-money-challenge-occupy-your-brainwhat-you-want-isnt-really-what-you-want.html)
That's a nice chart!  Could be useful with teens in helping them to think through the motivation behind their wants.
Title: Re: Reader Case Study – Am I using spouse's untouchables as an excuse?
Post by: Bracken_Joy on September 18, 2015, 12:02:08 PM
What an awesome update! You're making great changes. And congratulations on the pregnancy! How very exciting.