How long do I need to work here before asking for hours reduction?

[windawake]

I just started a new job two months ago and I'm quite liking it. The problem is, I don't want to be working full-time, anywhere, ever. I like the work I'm doing and I like the company, and I would like everything so much more if I could take every Monday off. Obviously I'd be willing to take a 20% pay reduction for this ability. Right now I'm making $54k and saving around 50%.

Here's the question: how long do I need to work here before asking for a reduction in hours? I work for a small tech company, and I have no idea how it would be received. I've only worked here for 2 months so haven't had a lot of opportunity to prove how efficient I am. I assume I should work here for a fair amount longer before asking, but I just took yesterday off and it was glorious.

What do you guys think?

[Future Lazy]

Would it be possible for you to ask to work from home one day a week? Or, in other words, if you were working from home, would they monitor you to see what work was getting done, or would that be able to provide you the free time that you're looking for?

That being said, don't ask to work less, take a 20% pay cut, and then not actually work any less - being efficient is good, but it's possible your employer could see your efficiency and raise your workload above what you want to handle, even though it wouldn't be above what you can handle.

[Stellar]

I was actually curious what full time meant?  40 hours?  or 65 hours? :-) 

[Zamboni]

There's never a good time to ask.  What I would do is ask around casually among your co-workers to see if anyone else either has or wants alternative hours.  There are lots of options:  4 tens, "summer hours" (which is usually 4 nines and then a half day), work from home, etc.  If someone else has wrangled this issue already, then it will help you couch it that way when you bring it up with your boss.  Also, don't plan to ask just once . . . broach it with the "we don't need to decide this right away, but I just wanted to put it out there."  If you ask and expect an answer immediately, then the answer will most likely be no.  If you say this is something you'd like them to think about working towards, then better results might follow.

Also, think of other things you want and make a list.  Better cube?  Trips to some conferences?  Bring your dog in to work? Whatever, just make sure they are things that you would like.  It's always better to have a list so the other person can say no to a couple of things but yes to what you really want.  Not sure you should bring up a list of things after only 2 months, but one or two years in is a good time.

[Left]

ask for 4x10 hour days? that's what I work now and I get Fri-Sun off each week

[windawake]

My full-time is just about exactly 40 hours, thankfully. I can't do 4x10s because I have a dog at home who needs to be let out, plus I'm just not efficient anymore after like 7 hours, I'd be a mess at 10.

I do think an interim goal will be to work from home one day a week. Since it's now winter in Minnesota, I think this may be a good time to broach the subject especially since I can frame it around what to do in inclement weather.

[mak1277]

There's never a good time to ask.  What I would do is ask around casually among your co-workers to see if anyone else either has or wants alternative hours.

This is key. Presumably at a tech company there is more flexibility than a lot of places, but I'd certainly want to know if anyone else was working a reduced schedule before I asked.

As a manager, if I hire someone for a full time position I obviously feel like a full time employee is needed...if I thought a part time worker could do the job I'd have hired that in the first place.  I'm fairly "old school" though, so I don't suppose I speak for everyone out there. 

[Numbers Man]

Your company advertised to fill a 40 hour a week job and after two months you want to change what the job should be. A small company really can't afford to be short staffed since people are always covering for each other due to vacations, etc. If somebody asked this at my small company the company would be looking for a replacement.

[windawake]

My projects are completely self directed and would not need to be covered by others. I have a set number of projects I need to complete and my supervisor has already stated that I've far exceeded expectations when it comes to finishing them. I have no qualms that I could complete everything expected of me in 4 days/32 hours a week. Working beyond that capacity doesn't make a ton of sense at this company. I write content and am reliant upon the development, UX, and marketing teams to build out functionality.

[Tyler]

The short answer - you need to work long enough that you can afford to be let go (or walk) if they don't like the idea as much as you do. 

[Zette]

I would say at least a year to prove yourself.  Then talk about it after the annual review.  Unless there are already a lot of part-timer workers there, you're going to have trouble selling it without a "qualifying life event".  For instance, if you were expecting a child or taking care of a very ill parent, it would be more likely to be acceptable to management. 

[Jellyfish]

What is the corporate culture of your employer in the area of flexible work arrangements?  Is it common for employees to ask for (and receive) these types of flexible schedules?  How large is your employer? 

I work for a major professional services firm that has a corporate culture that embraces flexibility.  More than half my team (myself included) is on some sort of flexible work arrangement, which is either work from home (all or part time), 4x10 with a day off, or a reduced schedule (and paycheck).  At my firm no one would think anything of a new employee asking for this, but the culture supports this and we are a huge firm and its easy to balance workloads accordingly.  However if you work for a small employer where most employees work 5 days/week in the office and there isn't a culture that supports widespread adoption of these arrangements, then its probably better to prove yourself through a longer track record before asking for something that is more the exception than the rule.

[Future Lazy]

My projects are completely self directed and would not need to be covered by others. I have a set number of projects I need to complete and my supervisor has already stated that I've far exceeded expectations when it comes to finishing them. I have no qualms that I could complete everything expected of me in 4 days/32 hours a week. Working beyond that capacity doesn't make a ton of sense at this company. I write content and am reliant upon the development, UX, and marketing teams to build out functionality.

This seems like a really solid argument by itself. Someone above said wait 1 year to prove yourself, but you'll know when you feel you've made that kind of impression. Saying you'll do the same amount of work for less pay as a trade for 8 hours of your week back in the free time bin is a pretty good deal for the company. That being said, it might be a good idea to wait for your review/pay raise season, and then instead of asking for a certain raise, ask for the shorter hours instead.

[Pangolin]

Ask at your next formal performance review, after feeling out the situation as others have suggested. If there is no review schedule, ask for one.

If your employer doesn't seem agreeable, consider asking for increased vacation days; if necessary negotiate the increased time off instead of a raise.

[frugalnacho]

Are they going to reduce your health care (along with other compensation perks that don't directly go to you in paycheck form) by 20% also?

[kudy]

I've considered similar scenarios for when I am closer to FI. I work in a similar office to yours (internet marketing/web development with 7 employees). Last year, one of my coworkers tested this idea. She asked to reduce to 32 hours/week. My boss was willing to try it out, but at a pretty steep cost:

• she switched from salary to hourly (with an equivalent hourly pay rate)
• she was no longer eligible for health insurance and revenue sharing
• unofficially, but it was noticeable, she was no longer considered a core part of the team, or a potential for management roles (should we ever get to that point)

She ended up leaving ~6 months after setting up the arrangement.

We have a few part time hourly employees, but they were hired under those terms.

[NoraLenderbee]

I'm a fast worker, too, and I've managed people who were fast workers and didn't need 40 hours to do their normal workload. I totally understand. That said--as a hiring manager, I would not be favorable toward this request after 2 months. I expect a new hire to ramp up their productivity after a couple of months, once they have learned the systems etc. I would start a new person with a lighter workload and then add more if they were doing well. A strong worker who took on a heavier workload would merit bigger bonuses and raises, promotions, etc., as well as more opportunities to work on projects that especially interested them.

I know people who have successfully negotiated for fewer hours with less pay, but all of them had proved themselves to be excellent workers for over a year (usually more) and had established their credibility and reputation. 

It's also not too cool to try to change the job requirements after such a short time. It could damage your relationship with your supervisor. Imagine if they said they really want you to work 48 hours (with pay). Wouldn't that feel a little like a bait and switch?

[Zamboni]

You do need to ask about benefits as frugalnacho noted. 

I once had a 4-day work week with full-time benefits including vacation, insurance, retirement match, but I negotiated the 4-day week before they hired me and they really wanted to hire me.  The upside was the 4-day week.  The downsides were two things: 
1) even though I was making 20% reduced pay, the boss really did expect an output rate that would have required 40+ hours/week (probably more like 50 or 60 would be needed.)   
2) One of the other employees resented it and would periodically make a snarky remark about it.  I think she wanted more time with her children and she could likely have gotten the same deal, but she did not want a reduction of her pay.  It sort of seemed like she disliked me from day one for getting "special treatment."  Jealousy!  Nobody else seemed to care, though, so you might luck out.

[Jesus Christ]

I asked for this in the past whenever the company was slow thinking I could avoid layoff. My manager said this was against company protocol but appreciated the offer.

Can you get a fence and doggie door for your dog? 4-10hr shifts are the best schedule.

[MKinVA]

You said you have no idea how this would be received. I think you need to work there long enough to at least know that having the conversation with management is possible without being immediately let go, or put on the list to be laid off first. You might also be given more to do. If they are now paying you for 40 hours and you prove you can do it in 32 or less, you could be view as too expensive an employee. You think that it's a great deal for the boss, but they need to protect the big picture. That includes keeping the other workers motivated, etc. you want to know that you want be ostracized by other employees because your special.

Get to know the place and people a little better before you possible jeopardize a job you say you really like.

[Gray Matter]

Good advice, here.  This is a tricky one.  It definitely feels too early to be asking for this, but I also find the concept that work fits neatly into 40 hours to be ridiculous.  We all know (at least in the kind of work I do) that it can expand to fill the time available--the work is never done.  So whether I work 32 hours, or 40 hours, or 60 hours, there is always more work, so why can't we negotiate an amount of work with fair pay that is something other than the arbitrary 40?

I have successfully negotiated part-time work twice (as a professional, in a "career," and with direct reports both times).  The first time, when I considered doing it, I asked around and was told not to, that my career would be over.  But then I kept asking, and I found a woman who had done it for a year or two while her babies were little, and she was able to ramp her career back up, and get several promotions after coming back full time.  So I negotiated 75% time, but only after I was comfortable with the risk that my career might never advance again in that organization.

I believe that as long as I stayed 75% time, I would not get promoted, but that I could have come back and resumed my career path had I wanted to.  That said, I had worked for the organization for over a decade and had a strong reputation.  And the people in that organization were/are very supportive in general.

After only 4 months in my current organization, I have asked to go 80% starting January 1.  I shared my (personal/family) reasons for doing so and they have been very supportive, even said they want to do whatever they can to make it possible for me to continue to work there.  Again, I had to be willing to take the risk that it might reflect poorly on me in their eyes, and am at a point in my career/life/set of personal circumstances where I'm willing to take that risk.

So...like many have said, wait until you know the place better, and they know you better, but then don't be afraid of going after what you want, as long as you can live with any potential downsides.

[woodnut]

I think 2 months is too soon to ask.  As another poster mentioned it is never a good time to ask.  I recently went down to 4 days a week after 5 years with my current employer.  I am the technical lead of my group and have the most experience in my group so everyone comes to me when they need help.  Not saying I'm irreplacable, but fairly valuable to my boss.  The negotiations to reduce my hours had a slightly unexpected outcome.  My boss said I'd like to keep you happy, but can we do a 6 month trial.  I say OK, fair enough.  My manager talks to his director and he says fine but let's do a 3 month trial.  Then my director talks to the executive director.  He signs off on it, but tells my manager he needs to work out a plan for replacing me because he will not extend it.

My advice is to wait awhile and get to know your management better to anticipate how they might react.

[Gray Matter]

One thing I forgot to mention, that lhamo's and woodnut's posts reminded me about, is that I set it up on a trial bases, with the stipulation that if it wasn't working well for either of us, I would go back to full time.  I did that for several reasons:  one, to show them how committed I am to the job, and two, so I could back out of it if turned out to be more stressful than working full-time because of the work load or if I ended up working full time anyway for less pay.

I do think it's tricky to manage this, but I also think it's important that more of us try it, so we have more flexibility and options moving forward.

[windawake]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the input. I do think I should wait a fair amount of time before I ask for a different arrangement. I get along famously with my manager and when I was hired, I was informed that most of the management decisions would be directly up to him (he's an EVP and one of the founders of the company).

I don't know of anyone at my organization who has a flexible work schedule or regular work-from-home days. I think this would be a new thing, but since this is a start-up environment I think they might be more amenable to this suggestion than a larger organization.

I get concerned about how to frame this request, when the time comes. I'm 26 and single. I have few responsibilities besides feeding myself and my dog. But still, I find 40 hours a week to be soul crushing. I obviously don't want to tell a manager that, but I also don't have a "legitimate" personal reason for working less like a sick parent or children to care for. I suppose I don't really need to justify with a reason, but I feel like it may be frowned upon (by others, not necessarily my boss) if me, a young, educated, and healthy person, was seen to not value working my ass off.

[frugalnacho]

Just tell them it's really cutting into your video game time.

[FarmerPete]

My last employer let me work 9/9/9/9/8 and 9/9/9/9/0 every paycheck.  It was glorious.  At first, I thought the 9 hour days would kill me, but really, my body adjusted and it became no big deal.  For my sanity, having that day off was HUGE.  I could do so many things.  I didn't have to fight lines at stores on the weekends.  I could work on projects at home.  It really was a win/win.  With my current job, when I started, they wouldn't let me do that because I wasn't technically salaried.  Now that I am, I could go to that schedule, but they wouldn't let me work from home one day a week.  So either I do 1 day a week work from home or an adjusted work schedule like the above, 4 tens, or 9/9/9/9/4.  I've chosen to do the work from home route.

If my department ever gets their act together, the new work from home policy allows working from home 3 days a week or 2 days WITH an adjusted work schedule.  I really want to do 4 tens with two of those working from home.  With saving 40 minutes a day in driving time when I work from home, those extra hours of working will be no big deal.

[plainjane]

since this is a start-up environment I think they might be more amenable to this suggestion than a larger organization.

I get concerned about how to frame this request, when the time comes. I'm 26 and single. I have few responsibilities besides feeding myself and my dog. But still, I find 40 hours a week to be soul crushing.

It will be really hard when it is a tech startup.  While they might be open to work from home arrangements, tech startups are not known for work-life balance.  As others have said, one option to float by them is to shift from salary to contract.  If you are focused on creating content, you could price it piecemeal.  Another option is to work from home 1-2 days per week, and get all your things done within 4 days.  Then mentally shift to being on-call during the other day.  If you did the second, be very careful about how you describe this arrangement to others.

[bigalsmith101]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the input. I do think I should wait a fair amount of time before I ask for a different arrangement. I get along famously with my manager and when I was hired, I was informed that most of the management decisions would be directly up to him (he's an EVP and one of the founders of the company).

I don't know of anyone at my organization who has a flexible work schedule or regular work-from-home days. I think this would be a new thing, but since this is a start-up environment I think they might be more amenable to this suggestion than a larger organization.

I get concerned about how to frame this request, when the time comes. I'm 26 and single. I have few responsibilities besides feeding myself and my dog. But still, I find 40 hours a week to be soul crushing. I obviously don't want to tell a manager that, but I also don't have a "legitimate" personal reason for working less like a sick parent or children to care for. I suppose I don't really need to justify with a reason, but I feel like it may be frowned upon (by others, not necessarily my boss) if me, a young, educated, and healthy person, was seen to not value working my ass off.

What I'm reading is a lack of communication between yourself and your famously compatible manager. I've personally done exactly what you're hoping to do in the near future, and I hardly waited as long as you have.

In my situation, I was initially working over 40hrs a week, to "catch up" on the backed up work load. However a month later, I was simply not happy. Sure, I was making money, and to most other people that is the highly desired result of the effort. However, money doesn't make me happy. FREEDOM makes me happy. Thus within 2 months I asked to work 4 x 10hr days. That was allowed, and two months later, I asked for 4 x 8hr days. That was allowed. THEN, I asked for 3 x 10hr days. I worked hard during that time, allowing my production to stay high, while my hours dropped. 4 days off every week!? F*CK YEA!

I too was 26 at the time and also had VERY few responsibilities. I did not have the NEED to work those hours, nor the desire, and I told my boss that explicitly. He was impressed with my capacity to survive AND save money while earning much less than the average person at the company.

Your worry that you may be frowned upon by others, (though not by the person that matters) is something that many mustachians deal with all the time. We live lifestyles often times quite different than our peers, taking us outside the norm of their realities. How dare you be different!!!

In your situation, I would do the obvious and weigh the pros versus the cons. What's the worst thing that could happen? Can you withstand that consequence? What's the best thing that could happen, and how much would that change your life for the better.

If I were you, with your very low level of fiscal responsibility and proven capacity, I would ask the manager in charge to meet with you at his earliest convenience.

[dragoncar]

Really interested in this, as I'm trying to achieve something like this myself (with a few more years under my belt).  For me, the problem is that my job is somewhat of an "always available" job.  So I can't just take off every Thursday and Friday, for example.  But It would be a huge win to say "oh, there's nothing urgent going on tomorrow, so I'm not coming in" and get paid proportionately less. 

On the other hand, I would likely destroy my chances for career advancement, and job security would go down (first fired in an economic downturn).  But I'm pretty far along to FIRE.  So any career advancement would only hasten my savings for a couple years. 

If I can get a sustainable high-paying part-time gig going, I think I could tolerate it indefinitely.  Seems like it's worth a shot, but I've now got to negotiate an hourly rate, benefits, title, etc.  Will report on developments in case they are helpful to anyone else around here (shooting to transition in Jan)

Just tell them it's really cutting into your video game time.

Yes!  I'm glad someone is around to pick up the slack when I take a day off from MMM

[Goldielocks]

There's never a good time to ask.  What I would do is ask around casually among your co-workers to see if anyone else either has or wants alternative hours.

This is key. Presumably at a tech company there is more flexibility than a lot of places, but I'd certainly want to know if anyone else was working a reduced schedule before I asked.

As a manager, if I hire someone for a full time position I obviously feel like a full time employee is needed...if I thought a part time worker could do the job I'd have hired that in the first place.  I'm fairly "old school" though, so I don't suppose I speak for everyone out there.

This.

The only time to ask is if
A.  It is obvious the company does not need you for full time and would benefit by saving time.  Maybe the only way they thought they could get a good person was full time?
B. You are otherwise needing and ready to quit...or be released.

My DH was able to change hours, but he was already part time, and sought better hours for thecompany's needs first.

[h2ogal]

I'm currently working full time, but in years past I've worked 3-4 days a week.   When my 3 children were young I was very up front at interviews and said I was only interested in part-time work.

Here is my advice: 
1. Wait until you have been there at least a year or 2 and have received your annual feedback/performance review.  Don't ask until know you are a valued employee.
2. Ask around and see if there is already a policy or past practice of part-time work. 
3. Look around for other part-time gigs outside your organization as a 'fall-back' if needed.  Talk to staffing agencies about contract gigs with part time hours.
4. Use your professional network to find companies in your area that have flexible work-hour policies.
5. Be flexible in your 'ask'.  Tell them that if the work load gets heavy periodically, you are willing to come back to full time if needed until things level out. 

I agree that it helps to have a good reason for the ask.  This doesn't have to be children. 

[AgileTurtle]

I know a guy to do this exact thing. The company told him they would not give him benefits if he worked less than 40 hours. They would consider him part time and pay him the same hourly rate with no benefits. Not sure how legal that is but that is what they did.

The story goes bad from there. But they did it for him. They were not happy. Basically he did a bad job of explaining his master plan and they thought he was just lazy. Then started treating him like he was too lazy to work a full week. In reality he was kind of lazy and not a good enough employee to change peoples mines.

[AlmostM]

I made this transition in 2013, but have since been suckered back in to full-time work.  (Hopefully go back to part time in a few weeks when my current project is over)

I started working for my company in May 2011.  The first year was really easy, a short commute (which I could bike or take the bus) and only 30-35 hours a week billable to a client, so enough time for internal meets and form filling out.  I was really exceeding 40 hours a week.

My second year with the company I got put on a different project from hell.  I was working with people in Europe and California (in in central time zone) so my work day was stretched from 6am till 8pm.  I wasn't enjoying the new client and I was bored/only babysitting the distributed team not being productive myself.  I had told my boss the project was horrible and I wasn't happy, but there had already been too much turn-over and the customer was using that as leverage to say the deals were our fault (when really it was because they couldn't make decisions, and only slightly our fault).

I thought about quitting, and got a new job offer.  When I went to resign, my company asked me to stay.  They asked what work I would be willing to do, even in other departments.  I thought about starting over at a new company and 1) moving 2) going through the prove yourself period and 3) how I could make my current company feel better to work for.

In April 2013 I got my company to agree to a 32% hourly wage increase, let them drop me from company health insurance and drop parts of my non-compete Clause.  The new arrangement is that I'll work ~24 hours a week! doing mainly curriculum writing and internal training.  I do only short client projects 2-3 weeks max, rather than 1 year or 6 month projects that require a ton of travel. 

The reasons I think this worked:
I knew my billable rate (value to my company)
The company is small and perpetually short staffed
The learning curve is steep (one or two projects makes you an expert)
I had been consistently contributing to areas outside my core job (out of boredom I started business blogging for my company, training on analysis methods etc)
I had a real external job offer at a much higher salary

Other upsides-
I get paid 1.5x when I do occasionally work more than 40 hours
I still get paid 8 hours for holiday
I still accrue vacation (only 60% of full time)
I enjoy the work I'm doing and keep it interesting by having much more variety

Last note, I had the non-compete removed in case I wanted to pursue independent consulting.  For instance, if the slight pay cut had hampered me I could earn it back elsewhere.  Also, insurance in MN is the cheapest in the nation.  Sourcing it yourself is no big deal, just factor that cost in before you negotiate your hourly rate.

[zinnie]

There's never a good time to ask.  What I would do is ask around casually among your co-workers to see if anyone else either has or wants alternative hours.

This is key. Presumably at a tech company there is more flexibility than a lot of places, but I'd certainly want to know if anyone else was working a reduced schedule before I asked.

As a manager, if I hire someone for a full time position I obviously feel like a full time employee is needed...if I thought a part time worker could do the job I'd have hired that in the first place.  I'm fairly "old school" though, so I don't suppose I speak for everyone out there.

This.

The only time to ask is if
A.  It is obvious the company does not need you for full time and would benefit by saving time.  Maybe the only way they thought they could get a good person was full time?
B. You are otherwise needing and ready to quit...or be released.

My DH was able to change hours, but he was already part time, and sought better hours for the company's needs first.

I agree with the above. They hired you as a full-time employee. Bringing up after only two months that you only need/want to work 32 hours with the attitude that 40 is "soul-crushing" probably just puts you on the short list for the next round of layoffs.

If one of my employees came to me with what you just put here it would really color how I viewed that person in the future. I would assume they are not enthusiastic about the work, I'd absolutely pass over them for promotions or extra responsibility, and frankly I'd assume they have a bad work ethic. After only a couple of months at a company, is that really how you want them to see you?

Sure, I'd love to work less hours as well--but my job as a manger is to make sure the work gets done and to make sure I have the people to do it. If one of my employees could accomplish the tasks they had been given in 32 hours a week I would expect them to come to me and ask what else they can take on/ how they can help out others who are more busy.

In my opinion, the only appropriate time to bring up something like this is during an interview, or when it is clear that the company would benefit by reducing hours of some employees (for example they are taking volunteers for part-time, or moving some workers to contract positions).

If you want to work less there are plenty of part-time or contract jobs out there. But trying to change your current job to something else that suits you better with such a short time under your belt is rather presumptuous IMO. I don't see what would stop them from replacing you with someone who can't wait to work the full 40 hours.