The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: RoryCK on October 07, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
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Hey there,
So finally I've amitted to myself that I want to quit med school. The only reason I'm doing it, is because my parents are forcing me. But it's literally sucking all the happiness out of my life.
It's not just the education, thought that's positively horrible aswell, it's the future you have as a physician. There's almost no life outside the world of medicine, female doctors have to struggle to have children and when they manage to have a baby, they have to jump to get back to work within a matter of weeks weeks. A female doctor said to me that she could never find the time to read to her children or help them with their homework.
As for the education; you hardly need to be smart; it's just memorising an endless list of facts. I've noticed that a doctor's favourite phrase is "We don't know exactly why or what the reason is ...." No, you wouldn't know the mechanism behind anything if all you do is memorise. It's hardly intelectually stimulating.
But my main problem is what do I do now (and I do like to point out that I live outside the US), I have my bachelor's degree, but I don't know whether that would be useful for anything.
Have any of you been in similar situation, or known someone who has gone through the same?
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What degree? Pre-med? Or something more general like biology?
Do you like medicine at all? Nursing? Pharmacology?
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Bachelor's degree in medicine unfortunately. That's how it works here; first you have the bachelor, then clinical rotations, then you're an MD and then your life stinks.
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Look into becoming a pharmaceutical rep. They make killer money, but you've got to be able to put on a sales face.
Don't go down a path that makes you unhappy, even if it means having a hard conversation with your parents. You deserve to do what makes you happy and fulfilled in life, and it sounds like medicine isn't the place.
Good luck!
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I don't know where you are or the system there. Here in the US, those with an MD can go in to research. Once you fight through the memorization, etc. you can go out and try to find the "why" if that is what interests you. Also in the US, options with a pre-med degree would include becoming a dentist and a pharmacist. I think both of those have more stable schedules than MD schedules, though I'm sure still a lot of memorization. Perhaps a medical profession that requires a different type of training like chiropractic, physical therapy, occupational therapy, vocational rehabilitation? None of those deal with a true "why" but they do offer more hands on interaction and hopefully noticeable improvement.
Another thing in the US: Some medical professionals get into "forensic" or "litigation" work- become a doctor that lawyers hire to evaluate people's claimed injuries or read their medical records and offer an opinion. Lucrative, flexible. But requires the MD for sure. Also, teaching pre-med at undergrad level?
If you really hate it, you shouldn't do it. But it might be worth it to talk to more doctors outside of your training program about their lives. Country doctors, part time doctors, specialists, "concierge" practice group doctors, etc. I know in the US the general idea is work all the time, but I think that isn't actually true and plenty of people find another way.
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I was in the same boat as you. While I quit and am pretty happy with my decision, I have friends who also quit and are desperately regretting their decision.
Here are my .02:
Don't rush into quitting. Talk to your Dean of Students (or whoever it is that's in charge of student welfare) and explain your situation. You sound like you *might* be at the start of your medical school career, so what you are feeling is totally normal and I assure you, at least 25% of your classmates are probably feeling the same way. If she is doing her job properly, she'll be an invaluable source of people to talk to and other programs/career options to consider.
In my situation, it took me about two years to quit. And even then, I didn't quit right away. Because I kept in touch with my dean and she knew that I was really having a difficult time in making a decision, she managed to convince the administration that I should be able to take a leave of absence "to figure things out." It probably helped that despite all my issues, I was doing fairly well academically, so please, please, please, whatever you do, make sure your grades are as top notch as possible, so that you can keep your options open. In my case, during that year, I worked two jobs and decided not to go back to medical school once I realized that I could keep myself financially afloat while I made more concrete plans for my future.
Also, StarryC is right - I am still good friends with a lot of my female medical school friends, and they're doing fine, quality of life-wise. I don't know how it works in other countries, but in the US, it's all about what specialty you go to and what practice you wind up settling down in. My radiology/dermatology/anesthesiology/private practice gal pals and I hang out for happy hour, do mommy/child play dates (I don't have kids, but I find them fun) all the time. Not so much with the ladies who went into surgery or work at university hospitals.
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I did my first 2 year and then quit in my 3rd year, 2 months out a lot of my friends really urged me to reconsider and said it will get better. Took me almost 4 months to finally get back in and it did get better. I'm not a family medicine doctor and i absolutely love what i do. stable high income working 5 days a week about 32-40 hours a week. it's not easy work but i was a fish/reptile specialist in college at a pet shop and that was way harder. in my particular situation i'm glad i stuck it out.
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Dear mustachejd, I can assure I don't rush into anything, It took me even longer than it did you to get to this conclusion. But I have to take the signs seriously; I'm not happy in what I'm doing, I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and don't want my life to be like this. Really, something has to change; I can't be endlessly afraid of my parents' judgement.
But I'm curious as to what you ended up doing?
And it's not that I necessarily want to know the "why" behind everything, it's just that I feel like a robot, who's only good enough to acquire information and then apply it. Sometimes I feel like I have to check whether I still have the ability to think or if all me braincells have just died.
Overall I have these options for master degrees;
-I can go into biomedical sciences; the professors haven't denied me entrance, but they heavily advise against it; because of my bachelor in medicine I lack the knowledge in biological mechanisms behind disease, so that limits my job opportunities. And also people have difficulties funding fundemental research because of the poor economic status of most countries.
-I can go into pharmacy. Again lack of knowledge in mechanisms, plus I would have to study one year to erase all deficiencies before I'm even admitted to the programme.
-And my last option is going into epidemiology, which seems like the best option, because there are no deficiencies and there seems to be a rise in job opportunities in this field. There are however a few things that bother me; firstly the programme isn't as full and secondly the students are usually older.
So that basically is my situation.
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You're trying to make these important decisions about what you want to do with yourself through the haze of your depression. Naturally, it feels overwhelming. Why not ask for a leave of absence to give yourself time to think, take stock, and decide if you want to go into epidemiology or try something else?
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This is my first post, ever, after lurking for a long time. But I was in healthcare for 42 years before FI and ER, and I have to say that what I am Not hearing here is deafening. It's hard to define what caring is, but I'm not hearing that word here from anyone. It's an X factor--a slippery concept--but anyone who builds a successful career and is happy doing healthcare will tell you first and foremost that they're in the business because they want to help people...want to make a difference...love to take care of people...something along those lines. It comes before anything else, and if the poster is not saying that--and I'm not hearing it--there is no disgrace whatsoever in getting out of the field, no matter what parents or peers may say. Caregiving is not for everybody, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with not being a caregiver type. One of my brothers is a physician, and like most of them, lives and breathes medicine. It's a calling, a vocation--and if you don't want to do it, or just are not "feeling it" then for heaven's sake, find another field that you are passionate about. People who go into medicine, nursing, dentistry...whatever..."for the money" or because "it makes me very employable" never, repeat Never, build successful careers. They do themselves and their patients a disservice, in my opinion. And I don't mean anything derogatory or critical, not in the least. If it's not for you, be honest with yourself, get out, and find your true direction.
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I wonder if it's the med school or the depression that is making your decisions. I think the depression needs to be addressed first. Then the family issues. Then the career choice. What would you like to do if you had the option? What really gets you excited? Every job will have its downside. Here in the US, there are so many different paths to take with a medical degree. I do know of women that have been able to have a good work/family life, but I don't know how things are where you live. I am applying to PA school in the spring. I love this career path because it has the flexibility of specialty and schedule I want, while getting me into medicine which really excites me. Is there a career path in your country like that. PA's and NP's are able to see patients and prescribe, but it is a Masters program. PA's can change specialty simply by getting a new job. You are qualified to work in any specialty that the MD who oversees you is qualified to work in.
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Sorry to hear of what sounds like a horrible way to train physicians. While I had a bit of a love/hate relationship with medical school, our program focused very much on first understanding the fundamentals of biological systems on a cellular and molecular level, then understanding the physiology of organ systems and how they function together, then looking at what happens when things go awry in disease processes. It sounds like in your case, they are beginning with the latter without building the foundation... I can see why that would promote depression.
My two cents: It sounds like you have plenty of career options, but it would be hard to advise without knowing what part of the world you are in and what you enjoy. I personally wouldn't be able to stand pharmacy, but have friends who love it. That sounds like a memorization-heavy discipline... At least in training.
I have an MPH in epidemiology in addition to my MD, and I particularly find infectious disease epi to be amazingly interesting. Still some memorization, but much more application of principles, once you've learned the fundamentals. if you read/liked Freakonomics, basically those authors are trying to apply the same principles and techniques epidemiologists use to what the Freakonomics people call 'economic' questions. Also lots of opportunity for work in governments, NGOs, international opportunities, and working in areas that are socially relevant... Now I'm starting to talk myself into quitting clinical work and going back to my public health roots... :-) the biggest downside I personally see to epi work is that you are almost always part of some big political organization - govt, university, NGO - and I quickly get tired of bureaucracy and political stupidity.
[edited grammar/clarity]
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I don't know what country you're in, but here in the U.S. there are lots of part-time options available for physicians. I trained in Family Medicine. When I first was out of residency, I worked shifts in a busy urgent care center - about 30 hours a week at first, then gradually less as I had more children (I have 3) and my husband finished his residency. Eventually I was down to just two 12-hour shifts per month - enough to keep my hand in and my intellect stimulated, and provide some small income, but left me free to take care of kids and home too.
Now my kids are grown, I am divorced, and I have a small holistic private practice which is very rewarding.
There are lots of other part-time options for primary care doctors here - working locum tenens (filling in for doctors on vacation or sick leave), working with nursing homes or drug rehab centers, working for a health spa, etc etc.
I agree that you should be careful not to make a decision that is just a response to depression or fatigue. Is there something else that you love that you always wanted to do? Or are you just burnt out?
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What do you like to do? Talk to people? Read? Research? Analyze? Compute? Build? Create?
Answer that question, and then think about the jobs that would focus on that skill.
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Bachelor's degree in medicine unfortunately. That's how it works here; first you have the bachelor, then clinical rotations, then you're an MD and then your life stinks.
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of bedside manner I'd want to encounter as a patient.
I can't tell you whether clinical depression is the cause of your medical school feelings, or whether med school is causing the clinical depression, but if you're in medical school because your Mommy & Daddy think it's a good idea then you need to get out of there now.
You have a bachelor's degree, and that gains you entrée into a hiring manager's queue. Your university presumably has some sort of career assistance office or alumni center where you could find out more about what others before you have done with their bachelor's. At the very least you should use their self-assessment tools and their discovery software to figure out what you like doing. Don't define yourself as "a medical degree" or "sent here by my parents". Find out what you like to do and then figure out whether anyone will pay you for it. Maybe your true avocation lies in a business that has nothing to do with medicine but everything to do with having a college degree... any college degree.
I'd also suggest that you get on Linkedin and network with others who have a similar degree-- find out what they're doing and emulate that.
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Hi. There is some really good advice given so far and I just wanted to add another thought. I think you should consider taking a leave of absence from school to figure out what you really want to do with your life. There is nothing wrong with wanting to a pursue a career that is more compatible with family life. If it means getting a degree in another area then go for it. See if your university will let you do a post baccalaureate year to get into another program. After getting my bachelors degree in one area, I only had to take a year of post bacc classes before I was able to enroll into a Master's program. See if you could do the same. It would probably even take less time and cost less than getting your Doctorate. Just make sure you take the time to explore and research a career that makes you fulfilled and provides a balance for family life.
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I can't put in much, no med school experience but could you take a year off then go volunteer somewhere (I see listings online in Africa that wants med students to come help out). Would give you a sense of what it's like as a doctor in a different area than med school would. Might help inspire you or help you decide you don't want to do it
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I was also diagnosed with clinical depression during my years in medical school - which is another reason why you should consider taking a leave of absence. It is much more difficult to make good decisions when you are not well.
And no, you can't be endlessly afraid of your parents' judgment. To be honest, I was nervous when I broke the news to my parents that I was going to leave medical school for a bit. In fact, I was so afraid, that I enlisted the aid of my Dean of Students, in case they had any questions regarding my ability to return to school. As it happened, I just didn't know at the time how amazing my parents are - they were fully emotionally supportive. Financially, not so much - I grew up with Mustachian parents, you see :). Fortunately, I was able to parlay my part time job of teaching during medical school into a full time position during my "sabbatical."
Re. your question of what I ended up doing: To make an incredibly long story short, I wound up trying many different careers (four? five?) before I became a happily practicing attorney. I began as an intellectual property lawyer; with my medical background, getting into a patent law practice was easy. (After medical school, law school was a total breeze.) I made pretty good money, and since I was single and child-free, I squirreled away most of it. When the financial crisis hit and my law firm dissolved, I was one of the few people who was quite excited to be out of a job and decided to try something completely different. So now I work as a government attorney and I love it. While I make less than a third of my original salary, the hours are great, my colleagues are fun (and actually pretty Mustachian!), and most importantly, my office is extremely family-friendly.
One word of advice: If you decide to seek more education, do your best not to take any loans. I'm assuming your undergraduate grades were quite good if you were able to get into medical school; you should be able to get into decent programs with sizable financial aid packages. If I could name the one reason why I've been able to happily bounce from career to career, it is because I carried $0 debt. The best decision in my life was when I chose a highly ranked state school (full scholarship plus stipend) over Harvard (their "financial assistance" barely covered books). Don't give into the name branding of schools.
You're going to be fine. You are clearly intelligent and you are young. Get some help, take some time off, regroup. Things will work themselves out as long as you're proactive about your approach.
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Hey Lizzzi and Nords, you're right; I probably don't possess the personality and/or bedside manner to become a good doctor. And I've spent a longtime supressing and subsequently being angry and frustated with myself for not being that sort of person. Because I am very idealistic and I do consider being a doctor an honourable and noble profession. But at the end of the day I can't find it within myself to consider the sacrifices I make on my personal life as a necessary part of my job, I find it too painful. And hating myself won't change that fact.
I do however like helping people, just not in a doctor kind of way.
By the way I'm in Europe, so does epidemiology still sound like good idea? If anyone else wants to share their experience with epidemiology, please do, I would love to know more. And Hamster it's funny that you should mention bureaucracy, because bureaucracy is pretty much the backbone of the control freak country I live in and it's driving everyone insane, so it wouldn't really matter for the profession I end up doing.
And mustachejd, I considered going into law aswell, I even ended up taking a couple of classes on private and international law. And though it was very interesting, I decided against it. Because I really want to be able to work abroad.
And I'm glad you have such amazing parents, really you can't be thankful enough. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing. When I started to take the classes in law, they threatened to no longer financially support me and cut me off from the family. So yeah, they won't win any "Parents of the Year"award from me anytime soon.
And I know the thing that interests me most; literature. But we all know what the prospect for that looks like......
By the way; I find it extremely worrying that so many med school students are diagnosed with depression and it's dealt with so casually.
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I'll echo some of the comments already posted.
Almost everyone I know in medicine has at some point wanted to quit. It's tough and it can be very discouraging at times. But... medicine is very diverse and most people find something that fits with their strengths, goals, lifestyle, etc. You can have a life as a physician and you can have a family as a woman. You might give up income and a high-flying career to do that, but you can do it especially in areas like family medicine, pediatrics, some internal medicine subspecialties (eg. endocrinology, respirology), derm, etc.
It's true that clerkship and residency are tough with long nights of call, but that doesn't last forever. You have a lot more control as a staff, especially if you pick a specialty that is more lifestyle oriented. We all get a bit of the grass in greener. Research (including epidemiology) is tough - it's very competitive, academia is brutal and very few people actually succeed. Being a drug rep requires a lot of sales and marketing skills and sucking up to people that's not all that much fun. Consulting is long hours and lots of travelling that you don't necessarily want to do. Are you sure that it's medicine you don't like or is it the reality of growing up and realizing that you are eventually going to have to work a real job with real responsibilities?
Having said that maybe medicine isn't right for you and you should quit. But I don't think you should make that decision lightly. If you are clinically depressed, you are not going to be able to make decisions properly and you need to work on your health before you throw away a career that you have already worked very hard for (premedicine years, medical school, etc). Take time off if you need to. Talk to your dean. Ask people to refer you to physicians who work part-time or those who have left for other fields and see what they have to offer you. If you have alternative career options, talk to people in those fields and ask them for the all the downsides as well as the upsides so that you don't idealize other careers.
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Years ago the same thing happened to me with law school.
For me I felt I was in way over my head, and I did not have the money to pay expenses. A fellow student was bummed because she thought that if I dropped out, what chance would she have becoming a lawyer.
Years later we hooked up, got married and now we're living off her pension.
Anyway, I think it takes courage to quit something when you know it's not working out. But the moral of the story, make sure you're friends with one of your colleagues of the opposite sex.
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I'm with many commenters here who are saying that it might help if you took some time off in order to gain perspective.
I don't agree with a previous poster that "caring" has anything to do with quitting. I went into medicine wanting to make a difference but ended up depressed, burnt out and cynical. I think it tends to happen to people who care a bit too much. Then I got an office job. I have more time and energy to pursue other interests (and to start a family) but I miss clinical medicine. I've been burned, though, and still very bitter.
If you are sure about quitting there are plenty of websites offering support and options. Pharmaceuticals, research and management consulting companies come to mind. At the end of the day you are the one who has to go to work every day, not your parents. They might be disappointed and they may never understand, but they can't begrudge you for trying to find happiness.
It's interesting that you mention literature. Historically, many doctors are also authors, for what it's worth.
P.S. There are a few similar threads on this forum about quitting/not quitting medicine and the options thereafter - they're very in-depth so maybe take a look?
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Dear pumpkinlantern, could you please explain the rationale behind the "don't throw away a career that you have already worked very hard for". That's the standard comment I get from people who are opposed to me leaving med school, but I still don't understand it. I've come this far because of my fear of leaving and my family's manipulation thereof, hating every step of the way. And your suggestion is keep doing this for the rest of your life?
And you're right; the research field is very competitive, I agree I might not succeed. And that thought still paralyzes me with fear. But just as well, there's no guarentee I'll succeed as a physician. I don't know the situation in the US, but here gaining a place in residency is extremely difficult due to competition. In as much that I know several doctors who still are without after 5-6 years. You either have to have a PhD, family or friends in the circuit or you have to be a naturally gifted arse-kisser. And it's also very difficult to gain a PhD position (same rules apply). And I'm not the only one who wants to start a family, so not the only who's opting for a specialty that's compatible with a family life. Many others have the same idea, which makes specialties such as radiology, anesthesiology, microbiology, dermatology etc extremely popular, thus very competitive, thus extremely hard to get into.
And also: recently the government has decided that doctors have to pay for their residency at least partially, so that is promising a huge debt for future residents.
Frankly I don't know any field that isn't competitive. I know people with degrees in law, bussiness, psychology and are unemployed. It's tough for everyone.
And I want to add that while we all idealise the physician (which I did aswell pre medical school) as the person who values helping people above all and willingly makes sacrifices asking nothing in return, this isn't always the case. Believe it or not, there are people who are so superficial that they went into medicine purely for the respect, authority and status it brings. So unfortunately these arrogant breed of doctors also exists, I've met many in person.
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I don't know what your exact situation is with your parents, but you're saying that they have threatened to cut you off emotionally and financially if you leave medicine. That sucks. But, and I am very sorry to say this, if they are supporting you financially, you're essentially allowing them to have a say in your future. And if you let your family hold you emotionally hostage now, it's just going to get worse.
So regardless of what path you choose, I would advise you to get a job (if you don't have one already, of course!) and make sure you have your Mustachian life skills down pat. Get yourself as financially secure as possible while your parents are still supporting you. That way, if they cut you off if you decide not to pursue medicine, you'll be fine, at least financially.
I worked while I was in medical school. So did my a lot of my friends. We did everything from teaching to bar tending to nighttime janitorial work to make ends meet. Granted, we didn't get to party as much as my classmates (I went to a pretty good medical school where everyone was essentially guaranteed a residency somewhere. I think my school's unofficial motto was, "Work hard, play harder."), but it was worth it in the end. I left after two years with zero debt and excellent time management skills =P.
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My first response is one that others have had: do not make this decision while battling clinical depression.
What if you focussed on getting well first? Can you take a term or two leave from the program? Can you participate in a well-regarded self-development course of some kind? Probably the best investment of time/money you could do right now. Your future self will thank you for dealing with this now and not prolonging the suffering by keeping on keeping on. You will likely make better choices as to spouse/school/work and be happier and reach FI faster too if you do this.
Also, I don't know Europe but here in Canada my primary care physician is a woman with kids who works part-time and homeschools one of her boys. They take sabbaticals. She shares her practice with her SIL.
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By the way I'm in Europe, so does epidemiology still sound like good idea? If anyone else wants to share their experience with epidemiology, please do, I would love to know more.
A friend of mine is a doctor in environmental health-- epidemics and public sanitation and immunization and so forth. His dad is a (still working) doctor too, so he was sort of dragooned into the family occupation. He chose environmental health because he gets to work on large projects and huge databases. He doesn't have to spend much time with those icky patients. He's also going to retire the minute he reaches FI and never touch a stethoscope again.
I've noticed that a lot of murder and mystery novels have coroner characters who got into forensics because the patients don't talk back. But you should probably not choose your career based on something you read in a work of fiction...
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Dear pumpkinlantern, could you please explain the rationale behind the "don't throw away a career that you have already worked very hard for". That's the standard comment I get from people who are opposed to me leaving med school, but I still don't understand it. I've come this far because of my fear of leaving and my family's manipulation thereof, hating every step of the way. And your suggestion is keep doing this for the rest of your life?
I mean that you've put a lot of hours and time into getting to this point and although quitting might be the best option, it might be worthwhile to:
(1) Explore your options within medicine.
- there might be something within medicine (or very close to medicine, even if it isn't exactly the conventional medical practice) that works for you.
- you may be able to use the skills that you've already acquired and still do something that makes you happy.
- if you are interested in things like research/clinical epidemiology, consider that an MD might be a very valuable way to jumpstart your career. It's not how you might have chosen to do it if you could go back in time (lots of wasted years), but having done part of it, it will give you an advantage over someone who hasn't done it. It is much easier to be an MD researcher than a PhD researcher without an MD, simply because of supply and demand. You have skills as an MD that are valuable and most MD's don't want to do research.
(2) Explore what your options are outside of medicine and find a realistic, viable alternative before you quit.
- Are you depressed and would not like any job?
- Are you idealizing the world outside of medicine? Although we complain to each other in medicine, the truth is young people in other careers (research, law, accounting, finance, business, etc) all have to work hard and do things that they don't necessarily want to do, work long hours, and do a bit of "arse-kissing" as you call it. The truth is relative to other professions, medical school and residency suck a lot, but once you're a staff you have an awful lot more freedom to decide how you want to practice than other non-medical fields. No law firm or consulting firm is going to hire you part-time. You can't own a part-time business. You can have a part-time medical practice (you just make less).
I am a medical resident and at least 5 of my friends in medicine have expressed to me a desire to quit at some point along the last 6 years or so. Some have switched medical subspecialties, some are now family docs and work part-time or some alternative model of work.
I'm not idealizing medicine. I have done 4 years of med school and 2+ years (so far) of residency and I know the de-humanizing parts of it, the brutal hours, the hierarchy, etc.
I just don't want you to make a rash decision because you are depressed and you didn't know what your options are. You won't be able to go back after you quit. So why don't you ask for a year of absence and take the time to properly figure out an alternative action plan before you jump out completely?
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Sorry one last thing I forgot to add.
No, you shouldn't make your decisions based on what your parents want. But you should also not be making decisions as a reaction to needing independence from your parents. Do you live with your parents? If so, maybe you should look into the possibility of moving out of their home so that you can have your own space to think.
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Hey pumpkinlantern, I'm sorry if I came across as a bit harsh, but I have been hearing that comment so often lately and it still doesn't make sense to me. Because I know better than anyone what it was like to pull all those all nighters and that I never want to do it again.
You make some very good points, so thank you.
You also mentioned in your earlier post that I might not want any job due to my depression. But I do want a job, I want a job that is fulfilling, I want a job where I can use my creativity and which enables me to be fully independant.
The things I don't like about medicine, is that there is no outlet for creativity - and I don't necessarily mean painting or writing etc, but you can never have any kind of input in anything, everything happens according to very strict protocols- and speaking of; the horrible hierarchy in the hospitals.
All kind of spontaneity is erased from your life; you will know that you have work and you will have to study in the remaining hours and sleep if possible, because that is a human necessity. And I also don't like the fact that I never have enough money; I work as much as I can (but because of the hours I have to study I can't work that often) and I lead a ver Mustachian lifestyle; I virtually only spend money on food.
I don't think I'm idealising the world outside of medicine though, it is a bit hard to do that in these economic times. Sometimes when I see how many friends of mine are unemployed, I'm even glad that I didn't do a BA in English lit or Journalism as I initially wanted to.
And Osprey; I just noticed you posted the previous topic on quitting medical school; so how are you, I gather you quit, do you feel happy about your choice?
And what do you miss about clinical medivine, now that you've stopped?
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Yes, let's step back from the question of "what options are there for people with medical degrees" and consider the bigger question: What makes you happy? What do you enjoy? What are you good at--what are your natural skills? What are you enthusiastic about (or if you're depressed, what did you used to be enthusiastic about)?
Do you like interacting with people a lot? If you were considering whether you'd prefer to interact mostly with people, with data/information, with works of art or literature, with animals, with nature... which would you choose?
If a friend were proposing an activity, which one would you be the most enthusiastic about: seeing a movie, hiking/mountain climbing/skiing, flying a plane/racing a car, going to a public reading by an author you like, going to a museum, taking a painting/photography/other art class, riding horses, listening to a lecture by an expert about ___ topic (fill in the topic), traveling to a foreign country...?
The first step is to remember what you like, how you like to spend your time. That is the compass that will guide you towards the right career. Then, the NEXT step is to figure out how to get into that career and whether med school will help or hinder it.
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And Osprey; I just noticed you posted the previous topic on quitting medical school; so how are you, I gather you quit, do you feel happy about your choice?
And what do you miss about clinical medivine, now that you've stopped?
Hey RoryCK. I "quit" clinical medicine after three years of work.
What I don't miss: overtime, hierarchies, protocols, paperwork, and in my setting we had very few resources.
What I miss: seeing patients! I liked interacting with people and doing problem-solving. It was rewarding and that's when I did some of my best writing.
You sound very bitter, which I totally understand (I am still bitter, my doctor friends don't want to hang out with me due to my cynicism) but this is the reason many commenters think you should take a breather before making decisions. The nice thing about actually finishing your medical degree first is that it opens up so many opportunities in a wide variety of fields. I was amazed at how many places wanted me for my "Dr."
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For some people, every job sucks. Can you be sure you're not one of those people?
Speaking from personal experience, I threw away some very amazing career opportunities because they weren't the perfect job for me. I believed I deserved a job that was perfectly fulfilling in every way. Now I look back and wish I'd taken at least one of those great opportunities because what I do now is SO far from a dream job - it is a bad compromise. For me there is no 'dream job', but some jobs are definitely less bad than others.
Be careful that you don't mistake disdain for work in general, for disdain for the specific job of being a physician. I am assuming you have just spent 7+ years in university and have never had a real job before. I advise you to be VERY cautious of throwing away the opportunity to become a physician.
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Be careful that you don't mistake disdain for work in general, for disdain for the specific job of being a physician. I am assuming you have just spent 7+ years in university and have never had a real job before. I advise you to be VERY cautious of throwing away the opportunity to become a physician.
I agree. The OP is in Europe, though, where medicine (like law and everything else) is an undergraduate degree. Or that is, you start it as an undergrad (at about age 18, in other words), and you study nothing or almost nothing unrelated to that subject for X years--it takes a bit longer than most other undergrad degrees and I'm assuming you end up with something along the lines of a combined bachelor's/master's degree.
Reason I mention this is because I think it'd be helpful for us, in terms of understanding the situation and thus giving better advice, if the OP would tell us how long a medical degree takes in her country, how many years along in that degree she is, and whether there are post-degree requirements (for instance, after you get the degree do you have to do X years of clinical training before you can be licensed as a doctor?). And honestly, I know she's trying to be anonymous, but it would be helpful if she'd say what country she's in because in terms of career prospects, I think there's a big difference between, say, Spain and Germany. Of course, I'm guessing from her excellent English that she's a native speaker (and thus is in the UK or Ireland), so maybe we can proceed on that assumption?
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I am assuming you have just spent 7+ years in university and have never had a real job before.
Meaning? I've worked since I was 14, because my parents have pretty much amounted to nothing in their lives and there was always a shortage of money. I've worked in supermarkets, shops, I've waited tables, I've cleaned, tutored, acted as a translator, I have worked in libraries, hospitals, a morgue (short-lived) and offices. And though none of these are jobs for "grown-ups", they're (underpaid and) real enough..
I'm most definitely not a spoiled brat who's living of the family fortune
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Whoa, I don't think any one was saying you were a spoiled brat. However, you've said your parents were providing you financial support which you would lose if you quit. We therefore assumed that you were in some way relying on that money and it had been influencing your decisions.
I think the part time, hard work jobs we have when we are young (14-22) are different from "grown up" post school jobs in that the adult jobs feel permanent. You are giving up other jobs by pursuing training in one area, committing that it will be your life's focus, and that you will spend most of your waking hours doing it. At least when I finally had a "grown up" job I felt a horrible sinking depression about that. I think that many people, no matter their profession start to feel that way in the transition between academic training and hands on training or on the job learning. You imagine how you'll be an awesome doctor or lawyer or engineer or even mother, and then you get in and start doing it and it is hard, and tedious, and boring, and doesn't feel meaningful every moment!
I think what people are trying to say is that many people have struggled when they were in situations similar to yours, and found that it wasn't the specific career that was the problem, it was the transition to full time, career work or the horribleness that is learning something hard and important in the early stages. That may or may not be the case for you. Talking to a counselor might help you sort that out.
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My parents don't financially support me; I have a part time job.
It's just that my mother had inherited some money from her grandfather ( it's really not a large sum) and from when I was a kid she always said that that money was intended for my education. I relied on that money for a long time; it would have made things a little easier. But when I started taking a few law classes and hinting at quitting medical school, she said that unless I did what she wanted, I would no longer have access to that money.
It wasn't exactly the lack of money that scared me, it's the subtle threat that she would do anything and everything in her power to make me study medicine.
And I'm pretty certain that transition is not my problem.
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I think the issue might be partly attitude? And the attitude might be depression-generated?
Your posts have a negative tone. Pessimism doesn't tend to work out as well for happiness as reasonable optimism.
I think focussing on getting to a more positive place is a priority. Which brings things back to taking time off and getting some self-development help.
My thoughts are that a medical degree is a very useful thing, even if you don't become a doctor. You have already spent four years on this so I would not make this decision until you are in a more positive state of mind.
This might include coming to a better place regarding your relationship with your parents, including forgiveness because you don't need the burden of the resentment you are carrying.
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Rory, where are you (UK? Ireland?) and how does medical school work there? You say you've got an undergraduate degree already and are in med school, but I know in the UK at least med school consists of either (1) an undergraduate degree in medicine that takes 5 years (with the last two being spent on wards, similar to a "resident" in US hospitals) or (2) an undergraduate degree in a related field (e.g. biochemistry), which takes 3 years in the UK, plus a further 4 years of medical school. So unless the system you're in works quite differently than that, it sounds like you must be on version (2) of the becoming-a-doctor track, in which case you've got a BSc in something scientific.
So in that case my question would be, if you've already got a BSc or other undergraduate degree, why do you care if quitting med school would cause your mother to withdraw her financial support? You've already got a degree and can go out in the world and make your way. If, for instance, what you really love is writing, your degree (not to mention the fact you spent time in medical school) should help you get a job or freelance position doing science writing, from which you could eventually branch out if you like.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you've already got a degree, then the only reason it would matter that your mother withdraws her support is if you have a passionate desire to enter a specific career that you can't do without getting another, quite different degree. But have you? If you don't know exactly what you want, then losing her support doesn't matter, does it?
Also, about becoming a doctor--do you have any interest in alternative health? Just wondering, because in the US at least I have seen doctors who became additionally qualified in something like that (certified holistic practitioner, acupuncturist, etc.) and they seem to have quite interesting careers that in no way resemble the hell you describe in your first post.
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How you looked into the possibilities of becoming a medical therapist (Physical, occupational, respiratory, speech)? I'm currently pursuing my Master's in Speech Pathology, and there is a couple of people in the program with pre-med degrees that cited similar reasons to you for not entering med school. With a medical background, grad committees would love to have you in the program and you would definitely see some scholarships come your way.
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I'm going to echo everyone else here, and say that first things first...the most pressing fire you need to put out is dealing with your depression. Make sure you're getting the adequate help, support, and medical assistance that you need in order to be your healthy whole self. If you don't do this first, all of your decisions will be made under the shadow of depression and this is the last thing you want.
Second, if you don't want to be a doctor, don't. Just because you've already committed time to it doesn't mean that you need to commit more. Wasting more years of your life doing something you hate isn't going to somehow remedy the years you've already spent.
Are you still interested in the medical profession? If so, have you considered becoming a physician assistant? This career would offer far more flexibility as well as less schooling while still being a fulfilling job in the medical field.
And if you're not interested in the medical profession, then go for what you do want. Just do something. Not many people work in the field they studied in college. Get an internship or experience in a field that does interest you. Start pursuing something else.
Hope this helps a bit and all of the best to you!
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I have actually started treatment for my depression, but it's kind of annoying me that I don't know how long it will take. I guess I'm a bit impatient.
Totoro, I hope, if I'm ever able to sort my life out, I will forgive my parents. I usually don't hold a grudge against anyone. But this is still going on, my parents still treat horribly for not wanting to go to medical school. I think I'm more diasppointed than anything else, as I have always believed parents should love their children unconditionally and accept them for who they are.
Daleth, I'd say go with Northern Europe :), I'm sorry to be so vague, but you're right I would rather stay anonymous. And as I stated earlier I have a BSc in Medicine, so I'm on version 1 actually. And in the world of medicine, I'm more interested in public health. That's why I would like it if more people shared their experience with public health and epidemiology.
Dibbels81, Speech pathology sounds very interesting, but I'm afraid that degree is not given in this country. Still, great suggestion!
And I'd like to say that this is an amazing forum, so far no one has skinned me for not wanting to go med school. That is quite different fom my previous experiences.
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Your parents probably want you to succeed, and maybe they wish they had your opportunities? I know I catch myself wanting my kids to have everything I didn't and sometimes these opportunities are not what they want.
I agree that it seems like they are putting too much pressure on you. I don't have the answer for that except maybe if you tell them honestly how you are feeling they might understand better? Not sure.
It is going to be okay. Hang in there.
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I do think it's not okay for parents to try and force their children to fit a particular mold. A friend of mine was in the same boat--her parents wouldn't pay for college (university in the US) unless she did what's called pre-med (preparation for postgraduate medical school)--and guess what? She never went to college. Idiot parents. The world does not run on doctors alone. We need all the professions.
And so I want to go one step further than what Totoro is suggesting. There may indeed be, as Totoro suggests, ways to get your parents to understand. But there may not be. In short, there are three possibilities here:
1 - They may not understand now, but start understanding if you explain it to them enough and spend enough time talking with them about it;
2 - They may not understand now or after talking about it, but, say, 5-10 years from now when you've made yourself a good life they will understand (in other words perhaps talk won't get through to them but actions/results will); or
3 - They may never understand.
Personally my vote is on (2), because it sounds like you've talked to them quite a bit already without their experiencing any change of heart. Their manipulativeness (threatening to withdraw financial support, already withdrawing moral support) also doesn't bode well for a mere conversational clearing of the air. And while I hope it's not the case, there remains the possibility that they'll never understand.
I'm not trying to depress you here, Rory, and I hope it's not depressing. What I'm saying is that it's quite possible that you at a bare minimum have several years to go before even one, much less both, of your parents have a change of heart. And I'm telling you that because I want you to know that even though you may not get what you want from your parents or may not get it for a long time, still, however remotely, however far away we are, all of us here support what you're trying to do (namely, make a happy life for yourself--our interest in money is solely because, as Denzel Washington once said, "Money can't buy happiness, but it makes a hell of a good down payment"--or as we see it, if you have enough money and use it wisely, then you can spend your limited time on earth doing what makes you happy and what fills you with a sense of meaning, instead of punching a clock just to pay your rent).
So... I wonder if it would be worthwhile for you to imagine what you would do if, say, for the next 5 years your parents didn't change their attitude at all. First: notice that you do not die! Haha! Their lack of approval doesn't kill you! Second: notice that you could invest a lot of time and emotional energy in trying to change their attitude, or you could--this is possible--let go of the desire for their approval, accept (truly accept) that they are flawed, disengage (in other words if they start harassing you, put down the phone or leave the house), and thus have all that time and energy left over to use in building yourself the sort of life you want. Third: notice that everything in life that matters--friends, the quest for (or work in) a satisfying career, your growing self-reliance, good movies, good books, interesting places to travel, falling in love, etc.--continues to develop; giving up on seeking support from your parents doesn't stop it! And fourth: just keep on noticing...
And through it all, you will find people, here and on other forums and in real life, who will support you. Of course you'll find naysayers too, but there are MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who understand that our time on earth is short and it's incredibly foolish to yoke ourselves to a career that makes us miserable.* And unfortunately there are also lots of people who understand what it's like to have unsupportive, manipulative, toxic parents--parents perhaps driven by their own fears and their own wasted ambitions (did either of your parents want to become a doctor and not have that chance, or choose an easier path, or...?), and who let those fears dictate how they treat their children. It's terrible, and many people have temporarily or (rarely) even permanently strictly limited or even eliminated contact with such parents, because it just comes at too high a cost. (In a word, your sanity is more important than your maintaining frequent contacts/visits with your parents.)
Excuse me for sounding incredibly American, but we are rooting for you!
* I remember reading years ago about a dentist in his early 40s who had an epiphany while he was at the mirror shaving one morning: looking at himself, feeling miserable at the prospect of another day drilling away at people's teeth, he had the thought, "What right did I have, at the age of 17, to force myself to be a dentist for the rest of my life?! I DON'T HAVE TO KEEP DOING THIS!"--and he quit. Boom! I love stories like that, but I love even more stories like yours, where people don't wait until their early 40s to wake up...
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Wow, Daleth, that's quite a speech. Thank you, that's very encouraging!
And you're right; I believe that eventually that they will have to accept that becoming a doctor isn't the right path for me. But I have a feeling that their acceptance might come (too little) too late.
And again you make a very good point. Looking back I see that the more depressed I've become, the less I've "noticed". The less I've been able to be aware of the joys and beauty of life outside of the world I perceived. There are beautiful and "noteworthy" things in life no matter how grim your situation is. My parents have always told me that a life without an education is worthless, but I can see proof of the opposite around me now. I know people with no education who manage to be happy and healthy and make their time on earth worthwile.
I've recently come up with a phrase that I think describes best how I feel. If I had a thousand lifetimes I would like to be a doctor in one of those lifetimes, but I only have one. The key is now finding out what I'm going to do with this life.
Honestly with such powerful words, it doen't matter that we're an ocean apart. It's still great to know that there are people supporting me even if they are on the other side of the world.
Bless your heart!
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Maybe I'm being blunt, or dumb, but I don't think mustache forums are a place where you'll get a lot of what you need. For example, after reading this thread, there are too many suggestions like "What will a medicine degree get you. Get a job, get money, retire!!" but it sounds like there are a lot deeper issues here.
1) I see you're on depression meds now...been there, done that. You're saying that they annoy you because you don't know how long you'll need them/when they'll kick in. Answer: You'll need them forever or they will never kick in until you figure out the source. Whether that's inner peace, or quitting med school, or getting away from manipulative parents, medicine alone will not solve the problem. (Don't get me wrong, they help. Like I said, I've been there.)
2) Do what you want. Seriously, it's that easy. Nobody can tell you what do to, but you have a lot of options. So figure out what's important to you: your relationship with your parents, a fully-funded college education, quitting medical school. It sounds like you cannot have all three of those, so this is a place to start. I can guarantee you cannot have all three of those unless you rationally sit down with your folks and tell them what you want. Tell them what your passion is, and how med school is truly destroying your life. If they don't support you, then maybe this is a road you're going to have to go down by yourself (financially and parent-emotionally). You seem strong, you can do it. I'm not saying you must destroy your relationship with your parents, there's a difference between "not being supportive with your decision" and "disowning you for making a decision".
Just my two cents. Good luck man, keep us posted.
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*Standing and applauding Daleth's post*
We're all pulling for you, Rory. Good luck.
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If you're interested in public health why not just finish med school, get the MD degree. And then pursue a masters or phd in social dimensions of health. An academic in that field who also has an MD sounds like a sure thing?
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Hey OP, I know - in a way - where you're coming from. While my parents didn't want me to study something in particular like medicine, I wanted to study something they disagreed with: painting ('and nothing else!') in a liberal arts program. At the time I was attending my dad's uni (reduced tuition which they paid for) which didn't have an art program, and living at home. Not going to get into it here, but there was a whole host of accompanying control issues (10pm curfew, general psychological and occasional physical hell, etc). Parents naturally disagreed w/my impractical degree choice, so I moved in w/friends and didn't talk to the parents for a year. It was more than a break from a school program, it was taking control of my life for the first time ever.
Started out working at Subway on just over minimum wage (under $4/hr). Paid for community college out of pocket while working full-time, then transferred to a public uni to finish off the degree, ended up in 20K debt including a semester of DIY study abroad in France. At the time, that's what I wanted to do. It meant a lot that, for the first time ever in my life, I was making my own choices.
After some shows, development of my skills, and a few years of commitment, my parents began to respect my choice a bit more. Naturally they worried about what I'd do for a living - but they're academics (English lit. and Theology) who also studied abroad at impressionable ages, and in a very real sense were great examples at how impractical life choices can lead to real vocational (not just a 'job' but so much more) fulfillment.
What I'm saying, similar to Daleth above, is: they may come around, or they may not. But you and they may have a lot more in common than it seems at this point. And also, that forgiveness is the corollary to love, even if it takes a while.
One last note: I made my decision based on what I really WANTED to do, not what I didn't. It was a positive moving towards, with specific goals, rather than away from the negative. As with other posters above, I'd suggest you take some time to yourself - away from family pressure - and work for a semester or so, and begin focusing on what you want rather than what you don't. It's never a good idea to make irrevocable decisions under the influence of depression.
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Dear Zarfus, I'm sorry to hear that, do you still use medication? I hope you're doing better now and that you somehow found a way to be happy.
You're right about everything, I need to fix myself first and as I said I have already started treatment, but the process is very slow and I'm a work in progress. But I do believe I can get some helpful advice from this forum, or gain a little perspective at the very least. Because the only thing I know that'll make me feel better is knowing what to do next. And finding people who went through a similar experience is essential to me, because I'm genuinely terrified of making the wrong decision and ruining my life.
And expatartist, I know, psychological pressure can be hell, right? I'm glad it turned okay for you, hopefully one day I'll be able to say the same. And I'm working on positively walking towards something, it's just that I find it extremely difficult to feel anything even remotely positive right now.
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And I'm working on positively walking towards something, it's just that I find it extremely difficult to feel anything even remotely positive right now.
Hang in there, Rory. It's going to get better. Sometimes, when things are bad and I feel overwhelmed, I remind myself that although it might suck just now, in six months things will be better. And then I just tell myself to hang in there for those six months. It usually works for me. :)
FWIW, it sounds like you're making a very good decision. I'm nine years out of residency, and don't think that I made the right decision to become a physician. I'm too far in now to quit, but working on FIRE so I can as soon as possible.
Best wishes!
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Thanks KimPossible (nice nickname btw),
I'll try your technique. Do you mind telling me which specialisation you chose and what makes you want to quit? Do you think the image I have of a doctor's life is accurate (very hard work, not enough time for a personal life) or do you think I've emphasised the negative and that I haven't given enough weight to the positive?
Good luck to you and I hope you reach FIRE very soon!
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I'm a physiatrist (specialist in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation). I actually like several aspects of my specialty, but there are enough negatives that I'd rather not be practicing. I used to be pretty passionate about working with people with disabilities, but it's kind of been beaten out of me :-/ As far as specialties go, it's not a bad one, but unfortunately it limits my options. Although I'm more interested in the practice of physiatry than internal medicine, I wish I had trained in internal medicine so that I would have more options. For example, in the town in which I live, I'm pretty much limited to my current job. If I were an internist, I could be a hospitalist or start an independent outpatient practice, or I could be a locums physician pretty much anywhere. The locums opportunities are limited for my specialty (many countries don't even recognize it as a specialty).
The main reason I want to quit is that I'm tired of the crap that goes along with practicing--I know every job comes with annoyances, but the stakes are high in medicine. The changes that are coming are also concerning for me. Like most physicians, I'm ok with being the "buck stops here" person. I'm ok with that responsibility--but I need to have the ability to practice the way I see fit. I'm seeing a trend toward hospitals and regulatory agencies wanting us to still accept the responsibility, but also to dictate the way we practice. I don't think that's acceptable.
I actually don't mind the hours, and in general, I still have time for my family, but I'm in a fairly unique situation (practicing in a fairly small, geographically compact city), so I don't spend much time commuting. As I have both in- and out-patient practices, I can often flex parts of my day so that I can deal with issues that arise with my kids. I have friends who are much less flexible, so I know I'm lucky--and that flexibility isn't exactly common in medicine.
With regard to whether you're making the right decision, I think you know that you have. If you don't really want to be a physician, you shouldn't. You only get one life, and if being a physician is going to make you miserable, you shouldn't do it. I know that all jobs have negative aspects (and I don't think you're over-glamorizing other jobs--and I don't think you're being spoiled or unrealistic), but most jobs don't involve making life and death decisions on a fairly regular basis, with the responsibility of those decisions lying squarely on your shoulders. You shouldn't take on that kind of life unless you want to--and it isn't fair for someone else to tell you that you should.
Again, hang in there. It really is going to get better. :) Keep us updated on how things are going.
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Dear Zarfus, I'm sorry to hear that, do you still use medication? I hope you're doing better now and that you somehow found a way to be happy.
No longer using meds, they seemed to help me get on the right path after making some bad decisions, and I'm looking at life through completely different eyes now. I do know people who have gone off, then back on (sometimes multiple times), but I don't anticipate it for me.
And finding people who went through a similar experience is essential to me, because I'm genuinely terrified of making the wrong decision and ruining my life.
I understand how hard it is to make a decision like this, especially when it feels like everybody that should be supporting you, isn't. Break it down into smaller goals, then it might seem less terrifying. Rather than doing this: quitting med school then finding a job or finding the monies for a new college degree or possibly using current B.S. to find something fulfilling that your parents would support you on as well as you feeling better and then finding a way to leverage these new skills/jobs to live a mustachian lifestyle. This seems like a monumental 'task' that could take years. or the rest of your life. Break it down:
1) Should you quit med school. What is in your best interest.
2) Based on number 1, then what?
This shouldn't be frightening. This is your life! Make it exciting and fulfilling. If you do something that you think will work out best for you...and it doesnt...so what? Find something new!
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I signed up just to reply to this question.
Do not listen to all these people telling you that you are depressed, you are thinking rationally.
You do not love medicine, and your aversion to its soul-killing education style and lack of creative thought will only grow. Many of your classmates are thinking the same thing, or will be soon, but will not have your courage.
I would have loved a face punch when I was in your shoes.
If I were you I would RUN not walk away from medicine.
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hugs op!!!! its tough, but hang in there. depression is whats driving you right now, so get it treated. meds, therapy, both, its not forever.
and then back to school and work as a physician and kids: i'm in my last year of residency and have 4 kids, 2 born in med school and 2 in residency. i took time off, we actually homeschool our oldest and my husband still works full time. you CAN do it. but it requires some special considerations and changes. for us, my husband works nights/weekends so we have very minimal childcare costs. we live close to school (previously) and now we can both bike to work. i chose a specialty with awesome hours, even residency is much better then most. (ie. i'm not a surgeon).
at this point, i'd fight to complete your education. there are other things you can do with your degree. epecially for women. part time work, job sharing and telemedicine are options that make work life balance much more, well, blanced :)
feel free to pm me with any specific questions. i will admit its been hard (but like all mustachians, i love hard work. really, i do.) but its worth it. i love my family, would not change it for the world. and in another year i'll have tons of awesome paying job options to build the stash (pay off the loans!) and enjoy working hours i want to.
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Just to be clear, science as a career is not any better (I graduated from the very top schools, and worked in the world leading institutions), and the pay is much, much worse. The working conditions are intense and hugely competitive when your are in these labs, and many of your colleagues have zero social abilities and skills. If you want to get at the mechanisms, get the MD, as you will have many options to supplement your salary, while your do research or teach. This is in addition to getting a better salary for doing exactly the same job.
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Dear KimPossible, I appreciate you sharing. Most physicians I encounter are extremely proud of their MD and don't really acknowledge the downsides of their profession. In any case it's sort of social suicide if you confess to have doubts. I joined this forum partly because I wanted to hear about an MD's life experience anonymously. So this kind of information is invaluable to me.
Zarfus, I know it's stupid and irrational to be this afraid and still I am. Breaking it down sound like really good advice, maybe that'll take away my fear.
Ilhamo, I'm not an MD, I'll have to do 2 years of clinical rotations for that and I'm not looking foward to it to say the least. I'm not from an immigrant family, not in that sense. I am however from a working class family, meaning that I'll be the first one in my family to receive this sort of education and the family dynamic you described is very similar to mine.
There are programmes that offer epidemiology courses, right now I'm contemplating to become an epidemiologist without finishing my MD.
Liquid, that's actually amazing, I didn't know my posts had such a powerful effect on people. Or are you in a similar situation?
j2p2, I'm sure a science career is hard work, I'm not idealising other careers outside of the medical world. I really want to emphasise this as I think many of you believe this. I don't want to make my life sound like a cheap melodrama, but I've been slapped with reality too many times to be ignorant of anything.
I'm not opposed to hard work, certainly not, I just want to be able to appreciate my job, I don't want it to be a means to an end. And my salary is only important to me to the extent that I want to be financially independent (and live in a better neighboorhoud). I just want to be happy with my life.
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You're definitely not alone in feeling this way, Rory. I have friends who are medical students (in the UK) who are not particularly keen on their current path.
I would ignore American data on the employability of medical school graduates. It is not relevant to the situation in the UK, where I am pretty sure the employment rate has been not far away from 100% for many years. (EDIT: You seem to state otherwise, it might be a result of the difference between overall employment vs. employment as a doctor.)
Depression is tricky. It is often caused by circumstance rather than simply occurring randomly. However, from my experience, if you're depressed it can be very difficult to make sensible, quick decisions about how to best modify your circumstances to be more suitable.
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On a final note, I would like to ask some advice. I'm kind of bad at making life changing decisions especially concerning my career. I get extremely anxious; heart palpitations, sweaty palms, nausea, sleeplessness, the works.
Does anyone have some useful tips to get me throught this process? How do you make your decision when faced with choices. I'm all over the place and I don't know whether I should follow my head or gut.
Thanx!
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OK - here is some advice:
You have made some cogent observations regarding SOME realities of a career in medicine - all your head talking there.
You obviously have the mental skills it takes to succeed in medicine - finding out what's wrong with the patient is kinda important.
Now you are dealing with the emotional consequences of your analysis and you feel trapped and you feel that you must get out.
But the thought of getting out makes you feel even worse and makes you feel even more trapped.
Now here is the good news: You are not trapped - you just feel that you are trapped and that is OK.
Now here is some other news: Not your parents nor anyone else got you to this point in your life - your own actions got you this far and you are doing quite well.
Here is more good news: You feel that others pushed you into the situation you are finding yourself in and that it will never end. To feel that way is OK, but no matter how strongly you feel about it it doesn't make it more true.
The truth is that you got to this point in your life through your own efforts and that is a major accomplishment - regardless how you feel about it right now.
It is probably difficult for you to imagine that you could ever feel differently about things as you do now, but that is in fact inevitable. You will feel differently every moment of your existence and, because of that, I advise you not to make any decisions based on your "gut".
I am not saying that there is something wrong with the way you feel or that you should ignore your feelings. There is simply no way that feelings could be wrong or right - they simply are. And ignoring or making them go away doesn't work at all. All I want you to consider is that emotions do not point to and do not emanate from any reality beyond their being experienced at a particular moment in time.
"Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them" - Epictetus
Again, do not make any decision using your "gut" - you would only feel good about it for a few fleeting moments. In fact, decisions made based on emotions are generally attempts to avoid these same emotions or to create emotions of a different kind or force - definitely not a way to make life changing decisions (see: monkey brain, hedonic adaptation, etc.)
I wonder if you have access to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy where you live. I recommend that you learn a little bit about it and maybe find a provider.
You certainly have hit upon some major issues regarding the practice of medicine but you have also left out some of the good things. I am a physician and after twenty years in the field I find that the good things outweigh the bad by a large margin - but that's just how I feel about it right now :-)
But all that needs to be sorted out at a time when you are not pushed about by your emotions so much - again, it is perfectly fine to have the feelings you have (palpitations and all...) but it is not OK to be pushed around by them - or, for that matter, by anyone else...
Here is another quote from my favorite stoic philosopher Epictetus:
“First say to yourself what you would be;
and then do what you have to do.”
And one last one:
“Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.” - Epictetus
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On a final note, I would like to ask some advice. I'm kind of bad at making life changing decisions especially concerning my career. I get extremely anxious; heart palpitations, sweaty palms, nausea, sleeplessness, the works.
Does anyone have some useful tips to get me throught this process? How do you make your decision when faced with choices. I'm all over the place and I don't know whether I should follow my head or gut.
Thanx!
Rory, are you taking medication? You have been diagnosed with clinical depression and this post also seems to indicate very high anxiety. I wonder if a lot of what is going on is biochemical? If you haven't tried the stress reduction plus medication route this might be a good thing to pursue...
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I do think it's not okay for parents to try and force their children to fit a particular mold. A friend of mine was in the same boat--her parents wouldn't pay for college (university in the US) unless she did what's called pre-med (preparation for postgraduate medical school)--and guess what? She never went to college.
One of my classmates parents would only pay for an engineering degree. He didn't want to be an engineer. He was a Chemical engineering major like me, and was very good at it - #7 in our class (of 24). When we were all nearing graduation and people asked him what he was doing next, he said "going to NYC to work on theater".
Now, I went to Carnegie Mellon. We have a great theater program. But his parents wouldn't pay for it. So he took nearly all of his electives in performance (theater, music, poetry). He won a free 5th year at CMU to study that exclusively.
21 years later, he's STILL not an engineer!
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On a final note, I would like to ask some advice. I'm kind of bad at making life changing decisions especially concerning my career. I get extremely anxious; heart palpitations, sweaty palms, nausea, sleeplessness, the works.
Does anyone have some useful tips to get me throught this process? How do you make your decision when faced with choices. I'm all over the place and I don't know whether I should follow my head or gut.
Thanx!
These symptoms could be anxiety or possibly related to some antidepressant meds. Along with meds you should do counselling/therapy. Your psychologist/counsellor/therapist should be able to help with unravelling what is going on here and help with strategies.
One thing you said about wanting to make the "right choice": keep in mind there might be many right choices. And you likely will have many different careers in your life. We are no longer in the mid 20th century when you only had one job all your life. So you get to have more than one go at it if you need to.
I agree with those who have said take some time out and improve your mental state first.
When you know what you want to move towards, figure out some steps. For example you say you are interested in literature. There is such a thing now as Medical Humanities, which as a medico puts you on a higher footing than arts graduates trying to get into the field. One big area is medicine and literature. There are a number of medicos I know of who are successful fiction authors: some practice half time and write part-time, some have left medicine to write. Or, if you like writing a job with lots of academic content might be useful.
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I dropped out of law school after a semester and became a middle school English teacher. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I love my job, and whereas in law school, I was somewhere in the middle as far as motivation and intelligent, at my current job, I'm regarded as one of the most hardworking and insightful teachers. It's much easier to be motivated when you really care about something.
I felt immense guilt when I dropped out, but thankfully, I was on full scholarship for the first year, so other than books, etc., it didn't cost me too much.
One huge piece of advice from someone who has been there: after you drop out (if you do), make sure you have some way to fill your day for the first few weeks. When I dropped out, I did it in early November, and I didn't end up finding a job until early December. It was extremely emotionally overwhelming to go from working on law school stuff for 12 hours a day to sitting around my apartment alone, looking for jobs.
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First of all; Happy new year everyone!
Okay I've been trying to write this post for 7 days in a row now - this should give you an insight into how difficult I find it to organise my thoughts- but I'm determined to get it done this time.
Totoro, I'm not sure what you mean by biochemical. But I am suffering from anxiety unfortunately and I'm in treatment for that for quite some time now and I'm not sure I see any results.
Ideally, I would want some free time to sort out my mental state as most of you suggested, but as I said my family isn't very supportive and I worked out that I wouldn't be able to support myself for a very long time unless I stayed in school. And also like amyable said the thought of sitting around with nothing to do scared me, because dropping out makes me feel immensely guilty and the agitation I would feel on top of that by doing nothing would probably kill me.
Currently I'm pursuing a programme in epidemiology while still being able to stay in med school, but I can't say it really works out and this part is difficult to explain. I feel guilty for not doing medicine, this has always been the case. While still trying to get my BSc in Medicine I would try to escape from it, but also I would feel immensely guilty for every second I spent not doing my homework. I would feel like I was stuck in a cage, but trying to get out of it would make physically ill with fear and worry and uncertainty. I thought I would feel better after I'd found an alternative programme, but that's unfortunately not the case. I still feel very guilty and I feel like I'm less than the students around me who are very eager to get their MD. You see, I think I know I wouldn't be a happy working as a doctor, but now I'm not so sure with these feelings I have right now I will be happy without becomng an MD.
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I had a run-in with high anxiety three years ago. It was no fun - like being a hostage to fear. Mine was related to hormone changes. I went on a low dose of anti-anxiety meds for 12 months and it stopped it. It made me realize that my condition was almost entirely biochemical because the meds stopped it in its tracks - immediately. Had I not gone to the doctor, I believe it would have escalated and no amount of willpower would have helped. Because of that experience, I am quite convinced that medication is sometimes the answer.
When I read your posts I get a strong feeling that the responses you have to your circumstances demonstrate higher anxiety/depression than would be average, even if this career is not for you. I feel the suffering and I really hope that you reach out for more support anywhere you can get it. It will be okay, just keep taking steps to any helpful resources out there. Your school probably has some?
As far as not being able to support yourself if you stopped for a bit, have you really thought about all options that might be available to you? I don't know your circumstances and I'm in Canada, but here you could stop out for medical reasons and, if necessary, go on social assistance short-term. Or just get a job, any job.
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Becoming a physician has been a goal of yours, invented and reinforced by your parents, for nearly your entire life. Of course the concept of quitting or changing it makes you have anxiety attacks!
This may sound harsh, but you are not far from the mental state of a brainwashed cult member or prisoner of war (no disrespect to POWs, it's just an analogy). Any time you have had a thought out of line (alternate careers) you were threatened with emotional and physical abandonment. This is how compliance is created.
You are doing really well by considering other avenues (epidemiology, for example), it takes courage to face our deepest fears. Be proud of yourself and keep flexing that independence! It will get easier with every step you take on your own initiative.
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I'm taking a break from an allnighter to reply to your posts and to destress a bit.
It may sound a bit odd, but posting my story on this forum really lessens my anxiety a bit. Just to get it out helps, I guess and the replies so far have been non-judgemental, thankfully.
Earlier on I said I wasn't from an immigrant family, I have to confess that's only half true; my father side isn't but my mother's side is and her entire circle of friends is from an immigrant background. And they definitely wouldn't understand me if I said med school is making me unhappy. I didn't want a culture/race debate going on, so that's why I didn't say it at first.
To anyone who has ever dropped out, or to anyone who wants to reply, I want to ask you something. For the past couple of months I've been doing research about whether the medical profession is the right choice for me; like making pro-con lists, doing career and personality tests (I'm an INFP), talking to counsellors, thinking. And I'm leaning towards that it might not be the best choice for me to continue, but everytime I hear stories about great things happening to people in med school and seeing new and fresh med students I panic. I wonder whether I've overlooked something, whether med school isn't so hard as it seems, whether I should push myself harder.
Have any of you had such feelings and how did you deal with it?
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"What would you do if you were not afraid?"
Lhamo, thats a great question. I've also heard that one should think about what one enjoyed when you were a small child...things you were attracted to and good at, but may have been discarded as "not practical."
OP, sounds like you are in a tough spot. You get anxious about continuing, but panic about stopping. A friend of mine is a psychologist and has a cup he offers his clients with "damned if I do, damned if I don't" written on it.
I can't offer practical advice about epidemiology, but it seems to me your general idea is a good one : ie to segue down an alley you think you can tolerate, that looks enough like medicine to keep everyone happy. It sounds like leaving completely is too anxiety provoking, so maybe proceed with epi, if you can manage it. ( does psychiatry appeal? thinking of an INFP) At some point you will be able to learn to displease your family, maybe it will take a few more years before you can do this. It would also be helpful I think, if you can "defy" them once you have a job and an income and are more independent.
I'm a physician,, age 55 now, and have to confess to a long term ambivalence about my profession that I've more or less stifled for a variety of reasons. Looking back I wish I had had the courage to change direction when I was 20 something. But I was too afraid and didn't really have an idea of what else I wanted to do....Unlike you however, although the work was a slog at uni, and yes lots of repetitive lists of stuff to learn, it wasn't until I graduated that I really realised I might not be in the right place.
The thing is, Rory, you are on a mustachian board. Mustachianism shows you how to be happy with not much income. If I'd known then what I know now I would have had one of two responses:
1. stayed a physician, worked my butt off and reached FIRE (like Kimpossible is aiming at)
2. changed track and chosen something I enjoyed, knowing that I could be happy without a high income.
I'm going around in circles a bit, but what I'm getting at, what if you did epi (or something that seems tolerable) for the next 5-10 years? Graduate, get a job, maintain a high savings rate working towards FI, and work on becoming independent/ improving your mental state.
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Caveat: I know culture plays a role in these things and how people respond, so this may not be relevant, but here is my story of defiance...
I always did exactly what my parents expected of me growing up. I never went through a teenaged rebellious stage, and continued to seek their approval well into adulthood. It got to the point where I felt guilty when I was doing something I knew they wouldn't approve of (dating and assorted other related activities, if you know what I mean), EVEN IF I DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE WRONG. Their voices followed me everywhere.
After I got married, this continued. If I had a decision to make, and one would make my parents happy and the other my spouse happy, I would make the one that would make my parents happy. It was not until I was 33 years old that I defied them for the first time, and even then, it wasn't for myself, if was for my child. I had no choice, because it was for my child and I had to put him first.
My parents didn't approve of how I was raising my child (attachment parenting), and we had a major blowout when they thought he was being disrespectful (which he was, he was two) and I interceded when they wanted to spank him. They banished him from their lives for a summer. I was 8 months pregnant at the time and wasn't sure if they would even come see the new baby, because my mother said she wouldn't come to my house if my two-year-old was there and if I brought him to their house, she would leave and my father would discipline him as he saw fit. There was no way I was kicking my two-year-old out so my mom could visit, nor was I going to let my father discipline him, so we didn't visit them.
This was an extremely painful period for me--I had spent my entire life avoiding this very thing, and yet it had happened anyway. I could hardly sleep, kept playing conversations over and over again in my head. But then I started to realize how wonderful it was to be a little family unit and to only have to worry about me, my husband, and my children. It was so liberating!!
My parents and I very slowly found our way back together, but it was in a new way, and honestly, quite a wonderful way. Our relationship now is better than I ever thought it could be, and that's because I left the relationship as a child and re-entered it as an adult. Looking back, I am so grateful for this experience, and only wish I'd had the guts to defy my parents as a teenager or young adult. There is a purpose for that rebellion, and it's a good one.
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Hi Rory,
Difficult position that you are in. If you don't like it after 4 years of studying, I doubt that you will ever like it. I guess you already know, but I just want to point out that there are a lot of other options with you're medical degree than becoming a physician. You could work in consultancy, as a company doctor, into research etc. However, you could also consider doing a pre-master and than another master like biomedical sciences, etc.
If you didn't like any of the subjects of your medical education so far, please stop. Different people like different things. The fact that your fellow students like it, does not mean you should too. You are old enough to stand up to your parents. If necessary take out a loan to support yourself. Maybe not the best forum to suggest this, but this forum is also about happiness, and it's better to work in a profession you like a bit longer than it is to work a bit shorter in a profession you dislike.
Good luck on your decision!
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Gray Matter, this is an excellent story. I too delayed defying my parents until well into adulthood. For some I think its not until we are securely independent, or there is a higher priority that we can risk their disapproval. I've always thought its probably better to do it as a teenager and get it over with LOL but I was a chicken.
As you say you've forged a new relationship that involves their respect of you as an adult. Mostly I think this is what happens and is as it should be. I've heard of situations where the parents/family are unfortunately unyielding and the estrangement continues...however as you said once you are independent/ have your own little family unit as you say you can manage quite well.
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Rory,
Here's another thought for you. If you are going to continue school, why not pursue psychology/psychiatry? It may give you insights into your anxiety, depression, and the parent-child relationship. Once you've got a handle on your own mental/emotional health, your empathy could be a great help to patients. Just a thought...
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I think epidemiology is a good choice. I work for an insurance company, and we have a ton of epidemiologists here in research/analytics types of positions. It's a good career that pays reasonably well.
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Hey Gray Matter, I think you should be very proud of yourself! For some of us it´s just not that easy to defy our parents, but you still did it no matter what age you were when you managed to do so. You should also be proud of yourself for being able to forgive them, that shows your strength of character. I´m happy for you that you found peace and happiness with your family at present.
It´s funny that you mention family, because recently I´ve thought of a new motivation for myself. Instead of thinking about this family I have, I try to think of my (hypothetical) future family. I try to imagine that it would make them proud if I stood up for myself and in spite of all succeeded in creating a content life. I hope that thinking about this and about what I would do if I weren´t afraid will help in organising my thoughts and figuring out my priorities.
As for INFP and medicine. I have the greatest respect for psychiatrists, as I´ve seen them work and I think they´re the bravest people I´ve ever seen. Still, I don´t think Psychiatry is for me, because the patients intimidate me. I mean no disrespect, but I always feel uneasy around psychiatric patients.
Happy, thank you for sharing your story. If you wouldn´t mind I´d really like to know what you don´t like about practicing medicine (what is your specialisation) and how you knew you weren´t in the right place. You can PM me if you feel like you´d be compromising.
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OP to answer your question: I like medicine in an academic sense, as in: I like the subject. Some of uni was very tedious, but as I progressed and knew more, I enjoyed understanding how the human body worked, pathophysiology and ways of ameliorating or reversing disease. I also enjoy helping people and using the practice of medicine to do this. To be fair though, I am more an academic than a healer.
What I didn't like was once I graduated from university ( quite an academic course with not much practical), our system of internship/residency meant I had to "learn by doing" on real people no less, with very little support. I am essentially a "book learner" and this was absolutely terrifying to me. Later in my career I learnt about Kolb and learning styles and realised why I hated it so much.
As I progressed through the ranks, this became less of an issue. However I realised I didn't relate very well to my peers who were, by and large, ambitious overachieving status seeking elitists who "played the game" to get to the top, not worrying who they swept out of the way. Working long hours in a fairly abnormal environment meant I didn't relate well to others either due to a sense of dissociation. I would sometimes blink in wonderment that there was a world of people out there doing all sorts of stuff, whilst I was dealing in sick bodies. When I had time off, when it was time to go back, it was excruciating to lose contact with the world again. I was touted to be a world expert in my field at a young age, but after a few years couldn't stand the pressure and took a menial job doing medical examinations for a couple of years, then was headhunted back to my specialisation.
I was still toying with getting out, when I had kids, and this was the perfect opportunity to work part-time. Part-time work made all the difference by reducing the all consuming nature of the job, and providing time to "normalise" on my days off. When I became a single parent I remained part-time, grateful I could earn a good wage, and still see my kids. At that point I was just grateful (and exhausted) and gave up any ideas of re-training.
With passing decades our health system has changed a lot, and currently it is very difficult to practice in a satisfying manner due to intrusions and limitations on the system. I still work part-time. These days its very much the systemic issues that irk me..... and hence I still want out. I have my own little side alley I have been working on and I hope to start to go up it soon. However I need to spend most of my work time in clinical medicine in order to earn my current high wage: a couple more targets to meet then I hope to shift directions. (or maybe just retire altogether)
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As for INFP and medicine. I have the greatest respect for psychiatrists, as I´ve seen them work and I think they´re the bravest people I´ve ever seen. Still, I don´t think Psychiatry is for me, because the patients intimidate me. I mean no disrespect, but I always feel uneasy around psychiatric patients.
I find this quote very interesting. I would think that psychiatric patients look and sound a lot like you.
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I find this quote very interesting. I would think that psychiatric patients look and sound a lot like you.
Maybe that´s why..
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Not sure how it works in your country, but here there's 2 main sorts of psychiatry practice. Public practice which sees the more socially challenging types of patients. Private practice on the other hand is full of people with higher socioeconomic status with mood disorders.
If you're not attracted to psych, don't give it another thought. INFPs are also analytic types so epidemiology fits fine.
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Hey thanks for that,
As for Psych, I'm not entirely sure but I don't think there's no such thing as a private psychiatric practice here.
And again, I don't mean to offend anyone, I just don't think I would do well in Psych.
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It´s funny that you mention family, because recently I´ve thought of a new motivation for myself. Instead of thinking about this family I have, I try to think of my (hypothetical) future family. I try to imagine that it would make them proud if I stood up for myself and in spite of all succeeded in creating a content life. I hope that thinking about this and about what I would do if I weren´t afraid will help in organising my thoughts and figuring out my priorities.
That is a FANTASTIC perspective. How illuminating!
As for INFP and medicine. I have the greatest respect for psychiatrists, as I´ve seen them work and I think they´re the bravest people I´ve ever seen. Still, I don´t think Psychiatry is for me, because the patients intimidate me. I mean no disrespect, but I always feel uneasy around psychiatric patients.
You don't have to be with psychiatric patients, though... you could go into research, or into counseling "regular" patients (ones with life troubles or mild/moderate depression, as opposed to psychosis or paranoid schizophrenia or what have you).
I was just reading the other day about a field of study in which psychology researchers are studying happiness, as opposed to studying illness. The point being, obviously, to come up with therapies that help people develop happiness, instead of just decreasing the intensity of their sadness or apathy. I would imagine there are also more specifically medical approaches to that, e.g. people studying the neuropsychiatry of happiness. Would that interest you?
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Hey RoryCK
Since you asked about med school, here's my 2 cents again...
Unlike "happy," I hated med school (hierarchy, rote learning, close mindedness, extreme structure, overachieving and competitive environment, plus my memory is not the best...) but absolutely loved the practical aspects and patient interactions. What I'm saying is, you may hate med school but end up enjoying the actual work. Maybe. But it seems like you are thinking otherwise, based on self analysis and counseling.
Another observation about med school - my little sister is one of those successful, cheerful, bleeding heart, "joins every campus organisation" students. She is thriving and has stars in her eyes about the profession. I clashed horribly with the culture of my institution and had poor grades, very few friends and eventually developed a bad attitude. The point is, nobody can tell you that you "should" be having a glorious time when you know for yourself that it's just not the case. Sometimes your school or degree is just not a good fit for your personality.
If you decide that it's a sunk cost, I'd say get out. You can always go back if you realsie that you've made a mistake.
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Hi Rory, just wanted to share a few things with you. I can identify with everything that you are feeling and I have been there too. I am also an INFP and it took me a while to realize that I am just wired really differently from other people. For me, listening to my gut has always paid off....it is when I try to over-think something or do something to please other people, that I run into a problem. I have to really believe in something to make a commitment of giving up my life to do it.
I fumbled around for a long time trying to live up to my parent's expectations...only to realize that they kept raising the bar and I would never, ever reach it. I ended up rebelling in my teens and self medicating with alcohol and other substances. It took me a LONG time to find myself, get the help, and then figure out what I wanted to do with my life. You see, we only get this one time around this amazing world....how sad to live it trying to please someone else!
Don't worry about other people...worry about yourself. I don't make the money I used to in the corporate world...but I got to semi-retire in my 30's doing something I love doing. I make 1/3 of what I used to make, but I am absolutely thrilled to wake up every morning living the life I dreamt about. It can be done :)
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Hey Citrine,
Thank you for sharing. Unlike you I always knew I was very different from other people, but again unlike you I'm still not at peace with it. I'm kind of envious how you can always trust your instinct, because I absolutely can't. Mostly because my gut feeling is so intertwined with fear, but also because I don't really know what it's saying. I have a very difficult time figuring out what I want and making choices and I'm at this stage of my life where one choice is very defining, so that puts me under a lot of pressure. And that again makes it hard being very different from other people, as it seems that everyone is collectively going in one direction and I'm inclined in going the other direction.
Sorry, I don't mean to turn this forum into an outlet for semi depressive rants. But what I'm saying is that even though I'm in a bad place right know, I'm hoping someday I can wake up to a life a really love as well.
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Hi Rory. You've gotten a lot of good advice already here so not sure how much I can add to the discussion. Do you enjoy working with animals? Perhaps you could become a veterinarian which might utilize your current degree. In any case, I hope you find what you're searching for.
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I'm kind of envious how you can always trust your instinct, because I absolutely can't.
Its that INF thing. Your instinct/intuition is a powerful gift. The F can make you want to take others feelings into account. One task is to figure whether you are responding to others, vs your own instinct. Trust me, that small quiet voice is there, but it takes practice to recognise it if you are used to always pleasing others. Its not easy but worthwhile. When I was in my 20s I looked inside and didn't know who was there. I was so used to living my life according to what others wanted. Looking back I probably got depressed too, but wasn't diagnosed.
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Thank you everyone,
For sharing your advice and experiences with me. Hopefully I'll be able to update you in the near future that I've found my way and everything is going well. I'll be working hard towards a solution, I really hope that it's true that you get to have more than one go in making the right choice as "happy" said.
Wish me luck!
P.S.: If there are still people who want to share their story, please do, I will be keeping an eye on this forum ;)
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Hello mustachians,
It has been 2 months since my last post and about 5 months since my first post. The last time I was here you were so kind with your insightful posts and I think I need it again.
First of all I need to explain what I'm doing and this might be hard to follow since the system here is different than it is in the States. Right now I'm in a position where I can do my masters in Epidemiology while still staying in Medschool, this seemed like a perfect solution at the time: so I could catch up on all the stuff in med school I didn't have fully memorised, while doing some research I actually like.
But my mind can't seemed to rest. Someone in here said that my mindset has been that one of a POW, I can't remember who said that, but I hereby agree.
This next sentence I have to be very careful in phrasing, because I'm never sure of what I want and what I'm feeling;
I can see now that being a physician isn't the place I want to be in 10 years from now. But If I didn't finish my medical education I would feel lacking.
Maybe this to an American audience is also very hard to understand. From an European standpoint you're all very individualistic and I mean that in the best way possible.
For example in Europe everybody either wants to go to medschool, or lawschool or do a business major. And that's fine, it's perfect for the people who want to go there. But very rarely do we hear anything else.
When I hear about American students picking their majors like journalism or public relations or creative writing or physics, it's so much more versatile. And so my guess is that not many of you are looking for a companion who takes the same road in university, because you're used to everybody doing something different.
Unfortunately, it isn't like that for me; I'm always looking for a companion, but everyone around me is daed set on medicine and becoming a physician. And that makes me feel unsure, insecure and like I'm always on the verge of making the wrong decision...
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Hi Rory, thanks for checking in, its always nice to hear updates.
I'm not surprised you've hedged your bets, since leaving medicine was causing you great anxiety, and this seems like a good compromise.
I recently came across this podcast http://financialmentor.com/podcast/follow-your-passion/11640?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Financialmentorcom+%28FinancialMentor.Com%29 (http://financialmentor.com/podcast/follow-your-passion/11640?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Financialmentorcom+%28FinancialMentor.Com%29)
which I thought was very good. Its about why the popular notion of pick your passion and do that as your job, isn't good advice. The premise is that enjoying your job is more about obtaining various characteristics in your work: competency, autonomy, connection with people, creativity, impact, control and a sense of mission. Its more about picking something you are interested in, making a commitment, getting good at it ( which involves hard work, you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of this phase) and then trying to trade your expertise to get those characteristics in your job.
A bit hard to summarise the hour long podcast, but I thought it might be useful for you, because it de-emphasises the idea there is a perfect job that we are passionate about, just find that and do it.
Right now I'm in a position where I can do my masters in Epidemiology while still staying in Medschool, this seemed like a perfect solution at the time: so I could catch up on all the stuff in med school I didn't have fully memorised, while doing some research I actually like.
If I were to apply these concepts to you current situation it would go something like this.
Finish med degree if you can suck it up and just get it done. Someone in epi with med degree will be better off both knowledge and status wise than someone without. (I don't necessarily agree the med degree makes you better at epi, but its just the way the world works). Do epi simultaneously if that is possible.
Decide epi is your interest and make a commitment to go for that. Work hard at it and get as good as you can at it. Once you have built a reputation, deliberately start to trade this for the passion traits that appeal to you: e.g. do you have a sense of mission to developing nations..you could specialise in epidemiology of health or disease in those countries, do you value autonomy..maybe you could work at home, etc etc
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I haven't noticed any mention of what you wanted to be when you grew up????????
Anyway, you are right, with its strict protocols and potential for lawsuits, medicine at the practice level has little room for creativity. Can you swing a gap year and use it to intern or volunteer in a public health department just to experience how things really are over there.?
Since you are female (?) taking fish oil capsules 3X a week may help with the down in the dumps
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I read this relevant article the other day on Man vs. Debt: Julian’s Success Story: How Going $42,000 in Debt was the Greatest Decision I’ve Ever Made (http://manvsdebt.com/reader-stories-julian/)
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The absolute last thing any logical patient wants is a Physician that does not want to be a physician.
Get out- if not for your self, for the future patients you may disservice.
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What I overlooked is that this is a very old post. Rory may no longer even be here. Anyway, in some countries - Great Britain is one such - the medical degree is a bachelor's degree.