Protecting our finances from our own cognitive decline

[BZB]

I’d love to hear what strategies you all have for protecting your finances from your own possible cognitive decline.
Sometimes family can help, but not always, and we don’t all have family. I know that there are lifestyle things we can do to stay sharp longer, but that’s not guaranteed, and with long COVID, Alzheimer’s, dementia, and just bad luck, we’re all at risk.

Yesterday I was catching up with an older retired friend whom I hadn’t spoken with in a couple of months. Since 2020, her cognitive function has declined. She’s been getting confused and having short term memory loss. She lives alone, her nearest family is a couple of states away, and while she does have friends, the pandemic isolation has been really hard on her. Some time ago I contacted her sister to let her know things weren’t going well.

I found out my friend has been a victim of a financial fraud scheme. The details she told me weren’t clear because of her memory problems, but I could piece together that her sister and some good trusted friends know and are helping her, the police fraud division is investigating (for what that’s worth) and she does have a lawyer. It sounds like she’s able to pay her basic bills, but she lost a lot of money – anywhere from $10K to 1.5 million – her story wasn’t clear. It started when she called what she thought was a Microsoft helpdesk for help with her computer. They got control of her computer, and got into her bank accounts and credit cards because she had the information stored there. They also sucked her into a Steam card scam in which they were bringing boxes of cards to her house and having her write the numbers down and get the scratch-off codes for them, so that she could “get her money back”. Once she figured out that they were taking her money, she didn’t tell anyone for a while because she was embarrassed. She is an intelligent person who used to work with lawyers in a regulatory department for an oil and gas company, and now that she’s in decline and alone, she is an easy victim.

[swashbucklinstache]

I hope to minimize vectors as much as possible. Ideally by the time I am elderly I will have one bank account, one taxable brokerage account and one Roth IRA. I'll also have a buffer not just for things getting taken, but other things a sharper person would miss. I won't be able to optimize things as much and need to prepare to be able to afford that.

It's kind of like LTC for health, your insurance isn't going to pay for you replacing driving yourself, walking, and riding a bike with you having to hire out a car to get to the grocery store, so prepare for that. Don't expect you'll always be able to find the best insurance rates and travel deals even if you can do so easily now. I think mmm folks might drop from 99th percentile personal finance managers to 70th or something so hopefully not too drastic.

Past that, not having pride get in the way and getting a trusted associate in place well before it's necessary are my best ideas.

[mozar]

The scam industry is huge and I think the best thing to do is to advocate for reform. More could be done at the government level like following through with enforcement. I read about a guy who lost 160k in a crypto scam and the fbi said it was too small to investigate.
It seems to me that the people who get scammed are the ones that are stubborn and easily embarrassed. Phishing is a really common type of scam and it’s hard to convince people to not give their passwords/computer control to someone who seems legit.

[CNM]

I wonder if placing one's money in a durable trust and appointing a trustee would help.  The trustee could be a family member, friend, lawyer, or accountant. Does anyone have any experience with this?

My dad is starting to loose it a little in his advanced age so he no longer carries credit cards or check book. My sister and I regularly review his bank account & other statements for anything that looks suspicious.  This is not available to everyone and there is a certain amount of trust/confidence involved.

[svosavvy]

This is not professional advice.  That said, hire an accredited fiduciary when the decline is singing your tune.  Hire a real one.  No joke a real real fiduciary.  Not a hyped up insurance salesman.  Fiduciary laws and requirements have been drilled out like Swiss cheese the last ten years or so.  Any jerk can now call themselves one.  One time as a favor to a friend I sat through a wealth manager pitch that was a friend of theirs.  Needless to say I didn't bite.  He was a "whole life" hack and had the brass to call himself a "fiduciary" despite lacking credentials.

You can also place a trusted loved one guardian over you.  This is deeply unpopular and rife with abuse.  You are literally trusting this person with your life/freedom.  Idea is you turn over the keys to the kingdom to them and they dole you out your assets in a totally non Britney Spears kind of way.  Family law practice can help you out with that.

The nice part about these is when the scammer wants your info tell them they will have to speak to the person in charge.

[Dee_the_third]

PTF. My dad did the cautionary tale version of this, which was to gamble gold futures while slowly declining from Parkinson's disease. Eventually he lost the capacity to handle it but never told someone who could take over for him and lost several 100k. Don't be like Dad, face your own mortality :/

[Sibley]

There isn't a perfect solution. From people who don't realize/admit that they're declining, to people who decline so quickly it too late to do anything, to those to know it but refuse to do anything, to those who are willing to abuse the elderly, etc. You can try to set things up, but there's only so much you can do. And those around you can only do so much, at least until things are so bad that they can legally take control. Which isn't easy.

So, do what you can. But know that no matter what you do, it will fail under the right circumstances.

[secondcor521]

PTF.

We're working on this now in my family.

A durable POA has been put into place, but as noted above that requires a lot of trust and transparency.  Works in our situation.  These are much faster, cheaper, and easier than a conservatorship.

You can sometimes sign up with the various financial institutions for security texts / emails.  This can give near real-time monitoring without inhibiting the person's freedom, so I think it's a good trade-off.

I *think* that with Vanguard you can actually remove web access for an individual.  We're probably not there yet but might be.

We've automated a lot of stuff, which helps minimize mistakes but doesn't do much against fraud/scams.

You can try to lock down tech devices like cell phones and computers, but that has seemed difficult to do so far in my experience.

Banks and financial institutions have fraud policies, and it's possible that a person can be restored under those.  This seems to depend on the circumstances.

[oldladystache]

When my dad was 99 he finally gave me the keys to his assets. I discovered that he had given a lot of money to his favorite charities in exchange for a regular income. When he died the income stopped and the charities got to keep the rest.

Since his income from the charities was more than he needed, he frequently gave them more money which increased his income even more.

I liked this approach since it made it virtually impossible to cheat him so badly that he would be in trouble. no matter how much they stole there would always be more income the next month. As it happened nobody cheated him out of his wealth, and for the next few years I continued donating his excess to his charities.

Following his example I have given most of what he left me to one of his charities, giving me an income for life. I have selected another charity, Doctors without borders, for my next donation, which will give me more income for life. I don't have any children or grandchildren so I'm happy to leave it all to the charities when I'm gone.

My only concern is that all my living relatives who care about me are older than me. For the moment they will watch over me if I need it, but they may not be around when I actually need them. If it looks like that will happen I will see about getting a professional to deal with my situation. With luck I'll die in my sleep and never be in a position to need care.

[dividendman]

When my dad was 99 he finally gave me the keys to his assets. I discovered that he had given a lot of money to his favorite charities in exchange for a regular income. When he died the income stopped and the charities got to keep the rest.

Since his income from the charities was more than he needed, he frequently gave them more money which increased his income even more.

I liked this approach since it made it virtually impossible to cheat him so badly that he would be in trouble. no matter how much they stole there would always be more income the next month. As it happened nobody cheated him out of his wealth, and for the next few years I continued donating his excess to his charities.

Following his example I have given most of what he left me to one of his charities, giving me an income for life. I have selected another charity, Doctors without borders, for my next donation, which will give me more income for life. I don't have any children or grandchildren so I'm happy to leave it all to the charities when I'm gone.

My only concern is that all my living relatives who care about me are older than me. For the moment they will watch over me if I need it, but they may not be around when I actually need them. If it looks like that will happen I will see about getting a professional to deal with my situation. With luck I'll die in my sleep and never be in a position to need care.

Are you basically saying that many charities sell lifetime annuities? That is interesting... I wonder if they are insured somehow from default.

[HPstache]

When my dad was 99 he finally gave me the keys to his assets. I discovered that he had given a lot of money to his favorite charities in exchange for a regular income. When he died the income stopped and the charities got to keep the rest.

Since his income from the charities was more than he needed, he frequently gave them more money which increased his income even more.

I liked this approach since it made it virtually impossible to cheat him so badly that he would be in trouble. no matter how much they stole there would always be more income the next month. As it happened nobody cheated him out of his wealth, and for the next few years I continued donating his excess to his charities.

Following his example I have given most of what he left me to one of his charities, giving me an income for life. I have selected another charity, Doctors without borders, for my next donation, which will give me more income for life. I don't have any children or grandchildren so I'm happy to leave it all to the charities when I'm gone.

My only concern is that all my living relatives who care about me are older than me. For the moment they will watch over me if I need it, but they may not be around when I actually need them. If it looks like that will happen I will see about getting a professional to deal with my situation. With luck I'll die in my sleep and never be in a position to need care.

Are you basically saying that many charities sell lifetime annuities? That is interesting... I wonder if they are insured somehow from default.

Also curious because this sounds a little strange.

[Dollar Slice]

Are you basically saying that many charities sell lifetime annuities? That is interesting... I wonder if they are insured somehow from default.

It's called a charitable gift annuity. Similar to a regular annuity but terms are more favorable to the charity (since the whole point is that you want to give them your money).

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/charitable-gift-annuity.asp#ixzz3kP7TLM00

[Cassie]

I have my bills automated and my 2 sons are responsible and will look out for me plus my best friend is 10 years younger and will also.

[former player]

Seems sensible to convert what you will need in old age into a pension or annuity and give the rest away.  Or set things up so that your capital is managed by a regulated professional such as a lawyer - it will be expensive, relatively speaking, but still more mustachian than handing it over to fraudsters.  Otherwise, trust your family, if you have someone younger who is close enough to you to be bothered, honest and capable.

[Hula Hoop]

I'm dealing with two parents (divorced) who live very far from me and who both have dementia.  For both, my sister and I have set up powers of attorney.  I think this is the way to do and I plan to set up the same thing for our kids when we get to a certain age.

I noticed while visiting my dad recently that he wasn't hanging up as fast as he once did to scam callers.  It made me very nervous.  We checked his accounts together (luckily he wanted me to be there with him) and while he hadn't given any large sums to scammers, I noticed lots of late fees on credit cards and random things like an amazon kindle unlimited membership and netflix membership that he had no idea he had and never uses.  If things decline further I imagine that we will start monitoring things more closely.

Seeing my parents decline and deal with dementia has really made me wonder how people without children deal with these things.  I have a wealthy aunt and uncle without children who have told me that they have set things up so that they will be taken care of in old age but I wonder how that will work practically speaking.  For example, if either or both of them get dementia, who will call the doctor for them, take away the car keys, make sure that they go to an aged care facility when it's time and also choose good quality carers for them?  It's such a delicate situation even for adult children to deal with as people with dementia are often to unaware of what is happenning.

[svosavvy]

PTF. My dad did the cautionary tale version of this, which was to gamble gold futures while slowly declining from Parkinson's disease. Eventually he lost the capacity to handle it but never told someone who could take over for him and lost several 100k. Don't be like Dad, face your own mortality :/

Sadly in 2013 I had a family member do this exact thing.  Options contracts on gold etfs.  He was bad with money his whole life, but, his parents were well off. They gave him his inheritance early (nearly 1 mil) and it was gone in a couple years.  He had grand dreams of becoming some kind of playboy in bora bora and thought his schemes would make him a mega millionaire.  I attempted to tell him several times he was basically already well off and to cut it out.  I just think of the life he could have had and the grand kids he could have put through college.  So sad.

[Dee18]

+1 to Former Player's suggestion to use professionals.
My mother's cousin, who lived far away, never married and lived to 97.  When she died my sister and I were surprised to find that we were among the beneficiaries of her estate. When we went to her memorial service we met her attorney and her accountant. She had engaged them in her 70's.  Although she was still mentally sharp when she died, she had prepared for her finances to be well-handled by having a long relationship with the accountant.  Once she was in her 90's she had him handling her monthly bills.  My experience in working with her accountant and attorney (my sister and I were asked to go through her belongings so we got to know them a bit) led me to realize the value of such professional relationships.  That is part of why I have a professional (fee only of course) financial advisor.  I don't really need him now, but should anything happen to me he will assist my young adult daughter in handing the finances.  I intend to follow my cousin's path and engage an accountant in the future.  This runs a bit contrary to the DIY aspect of MMM, but I realize that hiring professionals may be the kindest gift I can leave my heirs.  My mother is now in her 90's and I handle her finances.  My mother has declined to follow in her cousin's footsteps and use professionals. She has always been frugal and is resisting paying for services that would be beneficial to her, despite having more than enough money to do so.  The result is that our relationship now includes my constantly having to discuss finances with her and why we need to spend money on something like physical therapy.  (She is horrified that professionals are changing $90/hour.)  If I live to an old age I want my final years with my daughter and others to be focused on enjoying each other's company, not burdening her with handling finances.
P.S.  For the car keys--there came a time when my mother's vision had deteriorated to the extent that I called her opthamologist and told him she was still driving.  He was shocked and told her at her next visit that she had to quit driving.  She readily accepted his professional opinion, despite having resisted entreaties from family to quit driving.

[iris lily]

PTF. My dad did the cautionary tale version of this, which was to gamble gold futures while slowly declining from Parkinson's disease. Eventually he lost the capacity to handle it but never told someone who could take over for him and lost several 100k. Don't be like Dad, face your own mortality :/

oh ouch!

My dementia-brained mother made some silly purchases and was very open to any random salesman coming into her house to sell her dumb shit, but fortunately large amounts of money were not involved. One time my brother and I her broker to ask at what point large amounts of cash disappearing from her account  would be noticed. He said it would “ probably” be noticed which did not set my mind at ease entirely.

This is an excellent topic! DH controls our financial instruments and probably will not take kindly to letting go of the throttle, but were it just me I would have a single brokersge account, a single bank account, and set ip a way to have x amount of $ placed in my account quarterly so that only that bank account money was at risk.

[Sibley]

I noticed while visiting my dad recently that he wasn't hanging up as fast as he once did to scam callers.  It made me very nervous.  We checked his accounts together (luckily he wanted me to be there with him) and while he hadn't given any large sums to scammers, I noticed lots of late fees on credit cards and random things like an amazon kindle unlimited membership and netflix membership that he had no idea he had and never uses.  If things decline further I imagine that we will start monitoring things more closely.

I'm sorry to tell you Hula Hoop, but you need to be monitoring more closely, NOW. And probably should have been for a few months. And be prepared to take over bill paying at some point.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I don't have anything to add but wasn't to follow this extremely important topic.

[less4success]

If going the "professionals" route, what is the first step? Consult an elder law attorney in your state?

After witnessing a (formerly very sharp) relative fall for a scam that was basically just repeated emails instructing him to send money via Western Union, I realized that I need to plan for the day I can't manage my own finances anymore. Ideally this plan would be in place before I started losing my marbles.

[Daisy]

You should not only worry about cognitive decline, but also elderly fraud.

My very successful banker father in his later years just didn't want to deal with this stuff. He was so happy to have me take over paying the bills and would have me listen in to his calls with his financial broker. He did get horrified when I converted everything over to electronic bills and tore up his years worth accumulated power bills in front of his face. He liked receiving paper statements rather than electronic statements. I stopped that too...for many reasons as described next.

My parents had a caretaker that worked with them during the day driving them around, cooking, etc. She worked with them for about 10 years until I came into the picture and figured out what she was doing and fired her. We all trusted her and she was almost part of the family. She took advantage of this trust and was swindling my dad for who knows how much. My brother and I have discussed it later and we just assumed my father was on top of everything since he has always worked in finance.

This lady knew how to manipulate my parents, had a credit card to go grocery shopping (my father's naivete) and she would charge a bunch of grocery store visits in a month. She was probably buying her own groceries or possibly even gift cards at the grocery store. to the tune of $1700 a month. I was tracking their expenses to see how long their money would last so I put 6 months worth of credit card bills in a spreadsheet which is how I calculated and found this.

Who knows how many other things she did when we the kids weren't paying attention. My father was still of sound mind, but as he got older he just wasn't on top of things. He was just happy this lady was around to do all the things that needed to be done. This lady took advantage of the situation. This happens with a lot of elderly people.

My father would also leave around his monthly brokerage statements not locked up so she probably had access to a lot of information.

I don't have children, so I don't know what I will do. Although having children doesn't guarantee anything. In our case, we are four children and we just trusted my dad was keeping track of things. And once this happened, I was the only child actually paying attention and tracking...mostly because once I FIREd I had more time to do this. While working full time I was oblivious to this fraud. My siblings are all still working so they didn't have the time to do this and it fell on me. This lady would have wiped out my dad's finances eventually.

She even got him to invest around $60,000 on a trucking business that went nowhere. We were never able to recover this money.

[oasis1frog]

It seems to me that the people who get scammed are the ones that are stubborn and easily embarrassed.

Actually anyone can get scammed, even the most savvy & the wealthiest, just look who got scammed by Theranos. All it take just a moment of inattention or brain fog.

[Hula Hoop]

I noticed while visiting my dad recently that he wasn't hanging up as fast as he once did to scam callers.  It made me very nervous.  We checked his accounts together (luckily he wanted me to be there with him) and while he hadn't given any large sums to scammers, I noticed lots of late fees on credit cards and random things like an amazon kindle unlimited membership and netflix membership that he had no idea he had and never uses.  If things decline further I imagine that we will start monitoring things more closely.

I'm sorry to tell you Hula Hoop, but you need to be monitoring more closely, NOW. And probably should have been for a few months. And be prepared to take over bill paying at some point.

Thanks.  We put everything on autopay.  And I now have access to his accounts so that I can check things.  Another family member and I are also in the process of executing a power of attorney.

[mozar]

Actually anyone can get scammed, even the most savvy & the wealthiest, just look who got scammed by Theranos. All it take just a moment of inattention or brain fog.

I agree that I could be wrong, but your comment doesn’t necessarily disprove my point.

I have no heirs so there won’t be anyone to be mad at me if I get scammed out of all my money.

[Catbert]

It seems to me that the people who get scammed are the ones that are stubborn and easily embarrassed.

Actually anyone can get scammed, even the most savvy & the wealthiest, just look who got scammed by Theranos. All it take just a moment of inattention or brain fog.

AARP had an article awhile back that said people are most likely to get scammed during emotional times.  That could be bc of there overall situation (death, divorce) or manufactured  by 5he scammer (grandma I'm in jail. Help me.)

[Catbert]

DH has what the neurologist is calling Mild Cognitive Impairment (neuro psych testing says Alzheimer's).  He is giving me immediate POA for both health care and finances.  My POA for finances is to S4 (15 years younger)  S3 (6 years younger) as backup.  It goes into effect when either MD says OR both sisters agree its time.

If DH survives me (unlikely) I'm recommending sell all the rental real estate and investige immediate annuities to round out pensions so enough shows up in checking each month for all normal expenses.

I'd write more but I'm on vacation and only have a phone.

[Villanelle]

This is something I think about. We have no children.  We have essentially no nieces and nephews.  (BIL has estranged children, with whom he and therefore we have no contact.)  There is basically no one in terms of family to look out for us.

The one thing we do have going for us is a significant, income-adjusted pension.  If we lose everything else, as long as we don't also somehow go deeply into debt, we'd still have enough income to live quite comfortably. 

We will be able to look out for one another, but when that is no longer possible for whatever reason, we will likely be on our own. 

[Cassie]

If someone managed to steal my savings my pension and SS pay all my bills with some left over.

[rosarugosa]

I worry about this since we are another couple with no children.  I am handling my mother's finances (she has Alzheimer's), and she was ultimately very willing to let me take this over after a bit of reluctance early on, because she didn't want to burden me.  There is no lack of trust between Mom, me and my sister.  My sister is younger than me and is uncomfortable managing her own finances, let alone anyone else's, and she has fallen prey to scams due to her overly trusting nature and inability to set boundaries. She has also made substantial loans to "friends" that were never repaid.  So while I can trust her to never do anything knowingly to hurt us, I don't have confidence in her ability to manage these things, and there really isn't anyone else.
How does one go about hiring a fiduciary with the confidence that one isn't hiring Bernie Madoff?

[BZB]

How does one go about hiring a fiduciary with the confidence that one isn't hiring Bernie Madoff?

OP here - Yes, this seems to be the big question. Thanks everyone for the discussion so far.
A summary of strategies from the group:

• Simplify to fewer accounts to make it easier to recognize if money is leaking
• Automate bill payments to reduce errors and missed payments
• If you're lucky enough to have family or friends you can trust, rely on them to step in when things get out of control. Get the appropriate legal documents in place.
• if you have a pension, social security, or other regular payments that can pay your regular bills, maybe that will keep you afloat even if you lose all your savings
• Before you reach a certain age, get housing paid off, and consider an active 55+ community or other situation where you won't be alone
• Consider handing over the keys to the kingdom at a certain age, and make a plan for that. (If you have someone you trust)
• Plan ahead to have more money reserved to pay for services like driving, hiring a non-Bernie Madoff fiduciary, etc.
• I will add - Strengthen your internet security and password security now while you have the mental capacity to figure this stuff out. Limit what information scammers could steal if they got into your devices.

I hope someone who works in elder law sees this and can chime in.

[svosavvy]

How does one go about hiring a fiduciary with the confidence that one isn't hiring Bernie Madoff?

OP here - Yes, this seems to be the big question. Thanks everyone for the discussion so far.
A summary of strategies from the group:

• Simplify to fewer accounts to make it easier to recognize if money is leaking
• Automate bill payments to reduce errors and missed payments
• If you're lucky enough to have family or friends you can trust, rely on them to step in when things get out of control. Get the appropriate legal documents in place.
• if you have a pension, social security, or other regular payments that can pay your regular bills, maybe that will keep you afloat even if you lose all your savings
• Before you reach a certain age, get housing paid off, and consider an active 55+ community or other situation where you won't be alone
• Consider handing over the keys to the kingdom at a certain age, and make a plan for that. (If you have someone you trust)
• Plan ahead to have more money reserved to pay for services like driving, hiring a non-Bernie Madoff fiduciary, etc.
• I will add - Strengthen your internet security and password security now while you have the mental capacity to figure this stuff out. Limit what information scammers could steal if they got into your devices.

I hope someone who works in elder law sees this and can chime in.

Yes, this great post.

[svosavvy]

I would also add that your local social services office usually has great resources available as well.  Might be a good place to find reading material and local resources on this issue. 

[iluvzbeach]

We’re another couple without children. I am an only child and DH has one older sibling (also without children) from whom he is estranged. I have some younger cousins and I could potentially appoint one of them to overlook our finances when we’re older, but we aren’t that close and we live 2,000 miles away from each other. It may end up being better to hire a professional.

Mostly PTF to continue reading what others are planning to do.

[scantee]

Another strategy is to lock down any account where that is an option to provide an extra layer of intentional hassle to prevent rash decisions. Credit agencies is a big one. I know Treasury Direct accounts can also be locked down and you have to call to get the locked removed. One strategy would be to hold most of your cash and equivalents in treasuries and do quarterly, bi-yearly, or yearly withdrawals but otherwise have a lock on the account. I’m not sure if any of the common brokerage firms have a similar feature, but if they do a similar strategy could be employed for those.

[secondcor521]

My issue is for those who find themselves alone. SO/spouse passed. No kids or younger relatives. Friends passed or are elderly themselves. Etc...  Will they, or those in their community, recognise that they are doing financially unsound things? If I'm 80 and running around my senior community naked except for my tin foil hat then people will be aware that I've lost it. However if I'm alone in my apt buying things I can't pay for on credit or sending scammers all my money and personal info would anyone know?

How and when do you balance getting an unknown person (fiduciary) involved in your finances BEFORE you decline - or someone recognizes your decline? It would be very hard to hand over your finances while you feel you are fine but if you don't recognize your own decline (and no one else does) some serious financial and life issues could arise long before someone steps in. Maybe making friends with younger people or with a group who can spot any signs of dementia or abnormal behavior. But will they recognize financial irregularities? Probably not.

Excellent points.  My Dad is not in this situation but my best friend probably will be.  He's struggling with it, because it not only affects this topic, it also affects who is executor of his will and to whom he leaves his assets.  He's married but his wife is the same age and they are childless and have no close family.

...

Another suggestion that occurred to me is to try to keep your mind sharp against cognitive decline.  A good diet, physical exercise, seeing a doctor regularly, maintaining relationships and community, and mental exercises (sudoku, bridge, crosswords, wordle, whatever) all probably help.  Some supplements could help too.

[former player]

Something I've noticed about old age in family and friends is that there can come a point where even if there is not a specific illness such as a stroke or dementia, or a sensory problem like blindness or deafness, the interest and capacity for managing anything new or difficult diminishes and means that help is required to do anything more than the obvious and easy day to day stuff.  So simplification of transactions and getting rid of the need to make big decisions is definitely the way to go even in the absence of specific health problems.

A slight sidestep but in the same vein: I see a lot of cases of people in the decline of old age who are unable to appropriately manage the maintenance of their property.  Houses can get into a bad state pretty quickly if attention is not paid to keeping roofs, gutters, heating/cooling, electrics and plumbing in good order.   Moving to an apartment rather than staying in a house and renting rather than owning (as long as there is security of tenure) are the easiest solutions.  Maybe employing a property manager if you want to stay put in a property than needs maintenance for which you are responsible?  Again, this is probably the point at which it is necessary to let go of frugality.

Also, if you are moving into sheltered accommodation then being sentimental about holding on to the family house is the last thing you should do, but it happens far too often.

[Kris]

My issue is for those who find themselves alone. SO/spouse passed. No kids or younger relatives. Friends passed or are elderly themselves. Etc...  Will they, or those in their community, recognise that they are doing financially unsound things? If I'm 80 and running around my senior community naked except for my tin foil hat then people will be aware that I've lost it. However if I'm alone in my apt buying things I can't pay for on credit or sending scammers all my money and personal info would anyone know?

How and when do you balance getting an unknown person (fiduciary) involved in your finances BEFORE you decline - or someone recognizes your decline? It would be very hard to hand over your finances while you feel you are fine but if you don't recognize your own decline (and no one else does) some serious financial and life issues could arise long before someone steps in. Maybe making friends with younger people or with a group who can spot any signs of dementia or abnormal behavior. But will they recognize financial irregularities? Probably not.

This is the situation I'm likely to find myself in. DH has daughters (only one of whom I would trust), but he's older than I am and his health isn't as good. The most likely scenario for me is that I will outlive him, and then need to figure out how to protect myself. I could ask my older stepdaughter to help me, and I'm sure she would. But I also feel like that's a lot to ask of her. (Granted, she and her sister will be my two beneficiaries of my estate, but still. I don't like to think of it transactionally. She's got her own family to worry about.)

[Villanelle]

Something I've noticed about old age in family and friends is that there can come a point where even if there is not a specific illness such as a stroke or dementia, or a sensory problem like blindness or deafness, the interest and capacity for managing anything new or difficult diminishes and means that help is required to do anything more than the obvious and easy day to day stuff.  So simplification of transactions and getting rid of the need to make big decisions is definitely the way to go even in the absence of specific health problems.

A slight sidestep but in the same vein: I see a lot of cases of people in the decline of old age who are unable to appropriately manage the maintenance of their property.  Houses can get into a bad state pretty quickly if attention is not paid to keeping roofs, gutters, heating/cooling, electrics and plumbing in good order.   Moving to an apartment rather than staying in a house and renting rather than owning (as long as there is security of tenure) are the easiest solutions.  Maybe employing a property manager if you want to stay put in a property than needs maintenance for which you are responsible?  Again, this is probably the point at which it is necessary to let go of frugality.

Also, if you are moving into sheltered accommodation then being sentimental about holding on to the family house is the last thing you should do, but it happens far too often.

This is interesting to me.  I wonder if there are (reputable) property managers who work for some kind of flat fee, and do periodic inspections, oversee repairs as-needed, etc.  Much like those who manage rental properties, with maybe a bit more oversight (in case the aging person fails to notice some issues that a renter would generally see and notify someone about).  Seems like that would not only help ensure the property stays in good condition, it would also help prevent scams from unscrupulous contractors who see an elderly person as an opportunity for fake repairs and overcharging. 

[SweatingInAR]

A slight sidestep but in the same vein: I see a lot of cases of people in the decline of old age who are unable to appropriately manage the maintenance of their property.  Houses can get into a bad state pretty quickly if attention is not paid to keeping roofs, gutters, heating/cooling, electrics and plumbing in good order.   Moving to an apartment rather than staying in a house and renting rather than owning (as long as there is security of tenure) are the easiest solutions.  Maybe employing a property manager if you want to stay put in a property than needs maintenance for which you are responsible?  Again, this is probably the point at which it is necessary to let go of frugality.

This is interesting to me.  I wonder if there are (reputable) property managers who work for some kind of flat fee, and do periodic inspections, oversee repairs as-needed, etc.  Much like those who manage rental properties, with maybe a bit more oversight (in case the aging person fails to notice some issues that a renter would generally see and notify someone about).  Seems like that would not only help ensure the property stays in good condition, it would also help prevent scams from unscrupulous contractors who see an elderly person as an opportunity for fake repairs and overcharging.

Great idea! I poked around and found that there is a whole branch of home inspections for "Aging in Place". Surely they would also evaluate the condition of the home.

https://www.nachi.org/aging-in-place.htm

I would think that the purse strings should be separate. Have a licensed home inspector come through every 1-3 years, and a separate property manager to deal with contractors.

[iluvzbeach]

I love the above idea! It sure would be a valuable service as long as folks were willing to part with the money to pay for the service, and there were measures in place to protect them from fraudsters.

[Catbert]

My issue is for those who find themselves alone. SO/spouse passed. No kids or younger relatives. Friends passed or are elderly themselves. Etc...  Will they, or those in their community, recognise that they are doing financially unsound things? If I'm 80 and running around my senior community naked except for my tin foil hat then people will be aware that I've lost it. However if I'm alone in my apt buying things I can't pay for on credit or sending scammers all my money and personal info would anyone know?

How and when do you balance getting an unknown person (fiduciary) involved in your finances BEFORE you decline - or someone recognizes your decline? It would be very hard to hand over your finances while you feel you are fine but if you don't recognize your own decline (and no one else does) some serious financial and life issues could arise long before someone steps in. Maybe making friends with younger people or with a group who can spot any signs of dementia or abnormal behavior. But will they recognize financial irregularities? Probably not.

This is the situation I'm likely to find myself in. DH has daughters (only one of whom I would trust), but he's older than I am and his health isn't as good. The most likely scenario for me is that I will outlive him, and then need to figure out how to protect myself. I could ask my older stepdaughter to help me, and I'm sure she would. But I also feel like that's a lot to ask of her. (Granted, she and her sister will be my two beneficiaries of my estate, but still. I don't like to think of it transactionally. She's got her own family to worry about.)

Kris, Pay her!  Not just a hesitant offer to pay where you hope she turns you down.  Insist on it.  Assuming there is adequate money let her be the paid overseer and hire people to do some/all of the work.

[Kris]

My issue is for those who find themselves alone. SO/spouse passed. No kids or younger relatives. Friends passed or are elderly themselves. Etc...  Will they, or those in their community, recognise that they are doing financially unsound things? If I'm 80 and running around my senior community naked except for my tin foil hat then people will be aware that I've lost it. However if I'm alone in my apt buying things I can't pay for on credit or sending scammers all my money and personal info would anyone know?

How and when do you balance getting an unknown person (fiduciary) involved in your finances BEFORE you decline - or someone recognizes your decline? It would be very hard to hand over your finances while you feel you are fine but if you don't recognize your own decline (and no one else does) some serious financial and life issues could arise long before someone steps in. Maybe making friends with younger people or with a group who can spot any signs of dementia or abnormal behavior. But will they recognize financial irregularities? Probably not.

This is the situation I'm likely to find myself in. DH has daughters (only one of whom I would trust), but he's older than I am and his health isn't as good. The most likely scenario for me is that I will outlive him, and then need to figure out how to protect myself. I could ask my older stepdaughter to help me, and I'm sure she would. But I also feel like that's a lot to ask of her. (Granted, she and her sister will be my two beneficiaries of my estate, but still. I don't like to think of it transactionally. She's got her own family to worry about.)

Kris, Pay her!  Not just a hesitant offer to pay where you hope she turns you down.  Insist on it.  Assuming there is adequate money let her be the paid overseer and hire people to do some/all of the work.

Oh, I definitely would. i just don’t want her to feel obligated. But weirdly, it didn’t occur to me that she could just be the overseer and hire people to do all of the work. I come from blue-collar stock and this isn’t my wheelhouse. That would make me feel better.

Thanks.

[CNM]

Echoing what @former player mentioned: My parents are like this.  While my father definitely has come issues with is memory and cognitive abilities (likely related to a neurological condition he has), my mother does not have any specific illness.  Rather, technology is a major hurdle for her, particularly as it applies to electronic billing, e-signing, shopping online, or even having complex telephone conversations (she is hard of hearing). All this to say- aging is tough.  Luckily my sister and I live locally and can keep an eye on things and help out.

[Just Joe]

It seems to me that the people who get scammed are the ones that are stubborn and easily embarrassed.

Actually anyone can get scammed, even the most savvy & the wealthiest, just look who got scammed by Theranos. All it take just a moment of inattention or brain fog.

AARP had an article awhile back that said people are most likely to get scammed during emotional times.  That could be bc of there overall situation (death, divorce) or manufactured  by 5he scammer (grandma I'm in jail. Help me.)

Years ago my grandmother almost was pegged by the "Grandma, I'm in jail" scam. I called weekly so we created a sort of passphrase that was silly and unusual that never failed to always start my phone call with when she answered. It was simple and it worked for us the rest of her life. I occasionally reminded her that I would always use that phrase first no matter what.

[Villanelle]

It seems to me that the people who get scammed are the ones that are stubborn and easily embarrassed.

Actually anyone can get scammed, even the most savvy & the wealthiest, just look who got scammed by Theranos. All it take just a moment of inattention or brain fog.

AARP had an article awhile back that said people are most likely to get scammed during emotional times.  That could be bc of there overall situation (death, divorce) or manufactured  by 5he scammer (grandma I'm in jail. Help me.)

Years ago my grandmother almost was pegged by the "Grandma, I'm in jail" scam. I called weekly so we created a sort of passphrase that was silly and unusual that never failed to always start my phone call with when she answered. It was simple and it worked for us the rest of her life. I occasionally reminded her that I would always use that phrase first no matter what.

What a simple but effective approach.  I remember as a kid, in the kidnap-conscious 80s, the family had a code word.  If someone came to me and said my parents had been in an accident and needed me to go with that person, or whatever, we were supposed to use the word.  (Ignore for a moment the gaping holes in this plan.  I learned it at a school safety assembly and were told to ask our parents to implement it, so the family did.)  Same strategy applies.  You wouldn't even necessarily have to use it to open the conversation, and could just have it on standby in case there was every any doubt about the situation. 

This seems quite useful, yet simple and free.  Thanks!

[zygote]

My mother in law just got scammed out of $25k. "The bank" called her with some story about a check getting misdirected in the mail, and she needed to do a test wire transfer to secure her account. She's too embarrassed to tell us all the details, but I think they also got her to download an app on her phone. She has since changed her account numbers, her passwords, and wiped her phone. But the $25k is gone.

Luckily she is in a financial position where this $25k will not make or break her, and hopefully it is enough of a wake up call for her to be more vigilant when she is contacted. We keep trying to impress upon her that if she ever gets a phone call or an email like this, she should proactively look up the bank's number and call them to see whether the contact is real or not. Not really sure what else we can do, as she lives alone across the country and has no interest in letting us help her with her finances. And she didn't mention this fraud issue until she'd already gone in person to do the transfer, so we couldn't talk her out of it.

I do wish that the banks would take a more proactive stance about this. I get that they don't want to ask people too many questions for privacy reasons, but surely there could be SOME sort of safeguard to ask follow up questions when an elderly woman comes into the bank asking to transfer money "at their request". Also frustratingly, she realized she'd been duped when the transfer was still pending, but the bank said it was too late and they couldn't take it back. I don't really understand the point of these transfers taking several business days if there's no way to reverse the process. If the money hadn't hit the other account yet, there should be some way to block it.

[Turtle]

My mother in law just got scammed out of $25k. "The bank" called her with some story about a check getting misdirected in the mail, and she needed to do a test wire transfer to secure her account. She's too embarrassed to tell us all the details, but I think they also got her to download an app on her phone. She has since changed her account numbers, her passwords, and wiped her phone. But the $25k is gone.

Luckily she is in a financial position where this $25k will not make or break her, and hopefully it is enough of a wake up call for her to be more vigilant when she is contacted. We keep trying to impress upon her that if she ever gets a phone call or an email like this, she should proactively look up the bank's number and call them to see whether the contact is real or not. Not really sure what else we can do, as she lives alone across the country and has no interest in letting us help her with her finances. And she didn't mention this fraud issue until she'd already gone in person to do the transfer, so we couldn't talk her out of it.

I do wish that the banks would take a more proactive stance about this. I get that they don't want to ask people too many questions for privacy reasons, but surely there could be SOME sort of safeguard to ask follow up questions when an elderly woman comes into the bank asking to transfer money "at their request". Also frustratingly, she realized she'd been duped when the transfer was still pending, but the bank said it was too late and they couldn't take it back. I don't really understand the point of these transfers taking several business days if there's no way to reverse the process. If the money hadn't hit the other account yet, there should be some way to block it.

The bank should have been able to block it.  My father was successfully able to get a bank to block it after he was scammed by a fake email and luckily discovered the fraud in time. 

I'd be tempted to threaten going to the local media, or look into legal action.  If it was still showing pending, their fraud team should have been able to put a freeze on it at the very least while it was being investigated.

[zygote]

My mother in law just got scammed out of $25k. "The bank" called her with some story about a check getting misdirected in the mail, and she needed to do a test wire transfer to secure her account. She's too embarrassed to tell us all the details, but I think they also got her to download an app on her phone. She has since changed her account numbers, her passwords, and wiped her phone. But the $25k is gone.

Luckily she is in a financial position where this $25k will not make or break her, and hopefully it is enough of a wake up call for her to be more vigilant when she is contacted. We keep trying to impress upon her that if she ever gets a phone call or an email like this, she should proactively look up the bank's number and call them to see whether the contact is real or not. Not really sure what else we can do, as she lives alone across the country and has no interest in letting us help her with her finances. And she didn't mention this fraud issue until she'd already gone in person to do the transfer, so we couldn't talk her out of it.

I do wish that the banks would take a more proactive stance about this. I get that they don't want to ask people too many questions for privacy reasons, but surely there could be SOME sort of safeguard to ask follow up questions when an elderly woman comes into the bank asking to transfer money "at their request". Also frustratingly, she realized she'd been duped when the transfer was still pending, but the bank said it was too late and they couldn't take it back. I don't really understand the point of these transfers taking several business days if there's no way to reverse the process. If the money hadn't hit the other account yet, there should be some way to block it.

The bank should have been able to block it.  My father was successfully able to get a bank to block it after he was scammed by a fake email and luckily discovered the fraud in time. 

I'd be tempted to threaten going to the local media, or look into legal action.  If it was still showing pending, their fraud team should have been able to put a freeze on it at the very least while it was being investigated.

I do know she's still trying to go after the bank to get the money back for that reason. She's continuing to talk to the bank directly (lol good luck) and also the police. But might be worth having her talk to a lawyer. I suspect she doesn't want to go to the local media because she's embarrassed by the whole situation, which is unfortunately part of how these kinds of scams get perpetuated.

[Dee18]

Any crime involving phone, email, etc, is wire fraud, a violation of federal law.  It can be reported to your local FBI office.  Sometimes this gets a phone call from the FBI to the bank that moves things along.