Author Topic: post-FIRE financial conundrum  (Read 1400 times)

MrGreen

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post-FIRE financial conundrum
« on: May 01, 2025, 06:23:43 PM »
We've been retired for a while now and utilize the Roth conversion pipeline heavily since ~55% of our stash is in traditional IRAs and we're still a long way from age 59.5. As a family of 3, we can convert ~85k per year without going over the ACA subsidy cliff, assuming it returns next year. Between state and federal taxes and income-based insurance premiums, going right up to the ACA subsidy cliff puts our overall tax rate at ~15%. If we go one dollar over it, the tax rate jumps to ~23% so there's a heavy disincentive not to do this.

There is a reasonable expectation that in the next couple of years we will close on a long-term land lease that generates ~50k in income per year. I do some pretty extensive modeling and I was shocked to learn that, assuming we live to 100, every single dollar of this income is lost to taxes. How is this possible? Well it drastically reduces the amount of money we're able to convert to Roth IRAs, resulting in traditional IRAs that are triple the size they otherwise would be when we reach the point of Required Minimum Distributions. As soon as RMDs bite, our tax rate jumps to the low-to-mid 20s. Our Adjusted Gross Income is quite large at that point so the tax bill is considerable. Indeed, my modeling shows that even planning for a tax-optimal income across our lifetimes, earning a 50k income for 30 years results in paying $1.5 million more in taxes by age 100.

Obviously we could donate considerable sums of money when RMDs start. However, I'm wondering if there are other strategies we might be able to use that don't result in the automatic loss of all that income to taxes. I had the thought of making our daughter part owner of an LLC that would hold the land lease. We could funnel some or all of her part of the income into IRAs for her. However, she might see 15 years of income before she becomes an adult and I'm nervous about potential adverse effects of that. It certainly won't be trust fund baby money or anything like that but it could be multiple six-figures by the time she's 20. This wouldn't do her any favors with respect to college costs either. Plus if something happens where we'd have needed the money, say the market drags for a decade or two and our stash isn't nearly as large as I model, it preemptively takes a third of it out of our hands.

Another thought is to try and take advantage of big market drops to make what Roth conversions we can, though once the land lease income starts this won't have much effect.

I thought there might be some folks here who have considered long-term planning and maybe there are some ideas I haven't considered. I guess I'm still in the shock stage of the projection results. The scenario where we earn 50k for 30 years actually results in our stash being 20k less at age 100 than if we did nothing.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 07:36:32 PM by MrGreen »

swashbucklinstache

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2025, 06:44:07 PM »
This feels like it can't be right! Especially when looking at overall stache size not minimizing tax spent. Can you share a spreadsheet? I'm wondering about continuing to do conversions alongside earning. It might make sense to do so every other year.

MDM

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2025, 07:17:08 PM »
We've been retired for a while now and utilize the Roth conversion pipeline heavily since ~55% of our stash is in traditional IRAs and we're still a long way from age 59.5. As a family of 3, we can convert ~85k per year without going over the ACA subsidy cliff....
Meanwhile, see Roth Conversion and Capital Gains On ACA Health Insurance for a good way to analyze whether Roth conversions now make sense.  Even without going over 400% FPL you may be paying a high marginal tax rate on those conversions.

Quote
The scenario where we earn 50k for 30 years actually results in our stash being 20k less at age 100 than if we did nothing.
I have a reaction similar to swashbucklinstache's.  You may pay more tax due to having more income, but unless the marginal tax rate on that income is >100% you should have more remaining after tax, so...?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 08:10:27 PM by MDM »

deborah

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2025, 08:01:07 PM »
It appeares to me that mr green is saying is that he can currently take out 85k per year and be taxed 15% = $12,250 tax. If he gets any more, he’s taxed 23%, so his income next year is 135k, at 23% tax = $31,050 tax, which is $18,800 more per year.

Or, he reduces the amount he takes out of his IRAs via Roth conversion by 35k, which leaves a lot more money in his IRAs, subject to RMDs later on. @Exflyboy has also talked with others in the past about the tax problems he’ll face at that stage, so I understand that it’s a significant issue in the US even though I’m not there, and that more than one mustashian has this problem. Most of you may not be the spreadsheet nerds that these gentlemen are, and as it’s a fair way into your future, you may not have considered it.

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Note: since I’m half a world away, I may have got some terms wrong because it will never happen to me.

MrGreen

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2025, 09:26:32 PM »
@MDM my "do nothing scenario" models an annual income of ~90k until age 65 because it's what results in a 10-11% total tax rate, which I carry through for the rest of our lives. Also, the marginal rate on raising income from 90k to 103k (the ACA subsidy cliff for a family of 3) is incredibly expensive. On pure happenstance it's about as perfect a scenario as I could come across, an even tax rate across 60 years without constraints that cause problems. tIRA funds are drawn down to zero in our 90s.

In my original land lease income scenario, I raised our income to the 103k subsidy cliff because I assumed I'd need to do as much Roth converting as I could, even though the cost is high. Even doing that, we're still left with huge tIRA balances come RMD time. Also, between dividends and RMDs, our AGI when older pushes us into higher medicare premium territory. So between paying more taxes while we're young (higher AGI), paying more taxes when we're old (huge RMDs), and paying higher medicare premiums, it basically eats every dollar we earn from the land lease.

Not wanting to make assumptions, I made a second version of the land lease income scenario that reduces our AGI before age 65 to match the do nothing scenario. While we end up with a 7% larger stash at age 65 because we didn't pay as much tax, that savings is entirely eaten up by even larger RMDs in our older years. There's virtually no difference between the two land lease models.

@swashbucklinstache I need to do a little sanitizing and then I can share a spreadsheet.

@deborah you've pretty much got the gist of it. Basically, heavy Roth conversions over our lifetime result in X. Because of the ACA subsidy cliff (which is probably safe to say will return next year given the current administration), it makes no sense for our income to go over a certain amount. So additional earned income reduces Roth conversions. The result is massive income in older age via RMDs. Of course we can't know how long we'll live. If we died at 70 then delaying paying the tax man worked in our favor. But I still like to understand the scenarios for planning purposes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2025, 09:32:13 PM by MrGreen »

MrGreen

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2025, 10:05:56 PM »
Soooo, I get to look like a big buffoon.

A month ago I updated my models to reflect a 15% drop in the market this year. Every one except the do nothing scenario I described in my earlier posts. I guess I got pulled away by something and forgot to come back to it. I was so thrown by how the numbers matched between the two scenarios that I overlooked the simple checks. I corrected this oversight and the difference between doing nothing and the land lease income is big, multiple millions, just like I expected it to be.

Though there is still the problem of massive RMDs and taxes with the land lease income and I'm still brainstorming strategies on how I might be able to mitigate that.

bacchi

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2025, 10:50:14 PM »
Create a trust for your daughter?

If it's revocable, you can set up distribution points at, say, age 18 for college and age 30 for a house, etc. If your assets grow too large and start to create RMD problems, you can make it irrevocable with the same terms and get it off your balance sheet. If we see a 1970s repeat, you can dissolve it and use it for yourself.

But I know little about trusts.

MDM

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2025, 11:06:25 PM »
@MDM my "do nothing scenario" models an annual income of ~90k until age 65 because it's what results in a 10-11% total tax rate
You'll be better served looking at your marginal tax rates for various extra conversion amounts, instead of the effective rate on the total conversion amount.  See Marginal Vs Effective Tax Rates And When To Use Each.

Quote
Also, the marginal rate on raising income from 90k to 103k (the ACA subsidy cliff for a family of 3) is incredibly expensive.
Yes.  You jump from a fixed limit amount of APTC payback to repaying every dollar of APTC above 8.5% of MAGI.

Quote
In my original land lease income scenario, I raised our income to the 103k subsidy cliff because I assumed I'd need to do as much Roth converting as I could, even though the cost is high. Even doing that, we're still left with huge tIRA balances come RMD time. Also, between dividends and RMDs, our AGI when older pushes us into higher medicare premium territory.
You might be able to justify paying 22-24% marginal now to avoid paying 24% later, but perhaps not paying ~32% now.

Your marginal rate picture can look significantly different for different amounts of APTC received.  See the Finance Buff article linked previously.

Exflyboy

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2025, 12:11:35 AM »
Ahh yes the "cheap health insurance now Vs monster RMD's and monster tax bills later" problem.

I have the same problem but at a lower income level.. which makes the "problem" even worse later. The only difference is that we get completely free healthcare* because we are so incredibly poor!.. Note "poor" as far as the State of Oregon is concerned is income = 200% of the Federal Poverty level.

We have quite a bit of money in tax free accounts.. I.e we can withdraw without bumping up our income.. plus a couple of years in cash stuffed under the mattress! So yeah

I think I eventually stopped running scenarios on future tax bills etc for the simple reason that "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". Namely free HC now is a heck of a gimme in the good ol USA. No matter what I do, huge tax bills are likely to be a thing but we really don't know what will happen in the future, we only know the rules as they stand now.

Heck in 4 years our pensions and Social Security will be worth around $106k/year.. Of course we won't draw the pensions then (I'll be 67) because it will jack up our income too much.. So we'll be doing Roth conversions instead and delaying the pensions.. which will mean they will be worth even more!

But, will we have RMDs at 75 when I get there 12 years from now. Will Trump completely crater the economy so our stash becomes 10% of what it was in February?.. It will be really cheap to do Roth conversions then..:)

Will I even live that long? Probably not if I repeat last years attempt at getting full value from our free healthcare!

Bottom line, if you have mo money than you are ever likely to spend, what difference does it make if you MIGHT give a chunk of it to Uncle Sam a decade from now?.. Assuming you have no offspring that deserves one's legacy of course.



* Note: This came in pretty handy after I attempted to re-arrange my face on the pavement 10 days after I went on Medicaid, I.e "poor person's Healthcare".
« Last Edit: May 02, 2025, 12:17:36 AM by Exflyboy »

kite

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2025, 03:19:56 AM »
First, just want to say the links & guidance from @MDM was invaluable as I was strategizing Roth conversions.

I think I’m closer to 59 1/2 than the OP, and my spouse is already 62, so we’re a bit closer to the RMD age and that changed the calculus for us slightly. In addition, there are 2-3 assumptions/scenarios we considered:

1. Tax rates will go up. They may not reset in 2026 as planned, but they will certainly raise within 10-15 years, and they will need to raise significantly.

2. One of us may die, leaving the other with roughly the same income but a much higher bracket.
 
3. One/both of us may need long-term-care, providing a sizable deduction for healthcare, swamping the hit from RMD’s. Even without LTC needs at the moment, about 1/3 of our annual expenses are for medications & treatment co-pays for a chronic condition. This will only grow if I need in-home care.

swashbucklinstache

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2025, 07:38:06 AM »
First, just want to say the links & guidance from @MDM was invaluable as I was strategizing Roth conversions.

I think I’m closer to 59 1/2 than the OP, and my spouse is already 62, so we’re a bit closer to the RMD age and that changed the calculus for us slightly. In addition, there are 2-3 assumptions/scenarios we considered:

1. Tax rates will go up. They may not reset in 2026 as planned, but they will certainly raise within 10-15 years, and they will need to raise significantly.

2. One of us may die, leaving the other with roughly the same income but a much higher bracket.
 
3. One/both of us may need long-term-care, providing a sizable deduction for healthcare, swamping the hit from RMD’s. Even without LTC needs at the moment, about 1/3 of our annual expenses are for medications & treatment co-pays for a chronic condition. This will only grow if I need in-home care.
I agree heavily with these plus our pilots reminder that these are "good problems" =). Scenarios where RMDs really matter is a needle-threading few.

Other obvious things to think about, especially if you get weird with it by varying MAGI, are the relatively small IRRMA, when you take SS, NIIT, and I guess AMT maybe. Of course, the easiest one of all is that you can take a RMD and invest it in taxable.  Do a scenario where you have higher healthcare utilization than the average for a given age range. Do one where to have to spend $X a year in new, unrelated expenses. If you have kids, college aid calculations. Another one to remember is ACA costs vary by age and household size. This applies both to kids and potential loss of spouse before Medicare age. Those can mean high MAGI now is better than later, which I think you alluded to in a post earlier.

More out there things to look at approximately once is what very high inflation for a few years does to your stache in terms of converted basis or how non-US locations you might move to treat Roth accounts. Or, if your accounts have very different allocations by account type, what happens if your all-US taxable account crashes and your all-international 401k skyrockets?

Depending on what your model shows you can also consider holding your bonds or cash in pre-tax to lower their overall growth. Without looking at the math this seems like usually a poor idea?

I'd go peruse the bogleheads forum. I bet they have great spreadsheets to compare against.
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=97352

The gold standard imo is map out every year of retirement and pick a few starting years to look at.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2025, 08:06:45 AM by swashbucklinstache »

tooqk4u22

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2025, 09:01:55 AM »
@MrGreen - can you buy/own the land lease in your roth IRA?  That would solve the problem and best of both worlds.

MrGreen

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2025, 08:10:29 AM »
@tooqk4u22 That would be amazing if we could do that. Unfortunately we already own the land. I don't think there is any way for us to move the ownership to a Roth IRA without self-dealing, which is illegal.

@MDM your comments about marginal tax rates caused me to take a look at that more closely. In my yearly tax spreadsheet I have a place to note a tax base for a specific income and then calculate the marginal tax rate, including increased ACA insurance premiums, above that. It's particularly eye opening because this year we chose a bronze plan so we pay $0 for health insurance premiums on income up to $71,400. New income above that has a marginal tax rate of ~32%! That's pretty spicy. We don't need that income so giving away a third of it just for the sake of paying no future taxes is a tough sell.

@Exflyboy realizing the information I just mentioned to MDM, this could make our RMD problem even worse. Of course, we'll have to look at this every year since the insurance plan we choose heavily influences this calculation. Right now we're pretty healthy, so comfortable choosing a bronze plan in exchange for a higher income  that still affords us $0 premiums. As we age, we're more likely to need enough healthcare that will make a silver plan, and possibly cost sharing reductions, financially worthwhile, and that would lower income thresholds even more before big marginal tax rate increases. I understand your comment even better now.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2025, 08:48:20 AM by MrGreen »

secondcor521

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2025, 05:05:47 PM »
At a certain point, and it seems to happen around age 55, you realize you have more money than you're ever going to spend, the federal government is going to get probably 2x% of it every year, and you lose interest in the optimization problems because you can tell your heirs are going to be OK without their inheritance from you.  The compounding just sort of hits afterburners, even when there are bad years like 2022 or slumps / freak outs like the current one.

I still do the tax math every year and do Roth conversions usually up to one of the ACA-related limits, but if I go under or over by $10K it won't make any practical difference other than probably bother me on principle.

MrGreen

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2025, 04:58:45 AM »
@secondcor521 I can imagine it. At 55, age restrictions coming off of retirement funds is just around the corner, social security isn't far off, and 14 more years of unknowns have been lived. Unless our stash is struggling at that time, I can see how it's easy to just throw the hands up and it is what it is.

midweststache

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2025, 06:03:54 AM »
Create a trust for your daughter?

If it's revocable, you can set up distribution points at, say, age 18 for college and age 30 for a house, etc. If your assets grow too large and start to create RMD problems, you can make it irrevocable with the same terms and get it off your balance sheet. If we see a 1970s repeat, you can dissolve it and use it for yourself.

But I know little about trusts.

I'm going to second @bacchi here and recommend you talk to someone (accountant? multi-generational wealth advisor?) about the possibility of a family trust, with you as trustee, for the land lease revenue.

It may be that, as separate taxable entities you can mitigate taxes. (Which would be an irrevocable trust, which be best for the needs of your family - I don't think a revocable trust would distribute tax liability in the way you need, but I'm not a professional, thus my above recommendation.)

That said, it looks like most of your concern is relevant to RMDs and the tax implications with this additional revenue from the land lease as it related to ACA subsidies - but with RMDs, won't you be at Medicare age, and your healthcare costs should reduce significantly? Or are we all assuming Medicare will be (mostly) abolished in the next 3.75 years? Or is the concern taxes broadly, regardless of how much you end up paying for healthcare (whether through ACA or Medicare)?

seattlecyclone

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2025, 11:50:29 AM »
I had the thought of making our daughter part owner of an LLC that would hold the land lease. We could funnel some or all of her part of the income into IRAs for her. However, she might see 15 years of income before she becomes an adult and I'm nervous about potential adverse effects of that. It certainly won't be trust fund baby money or anything like that but it could be multiple six-figures by the time she's 20. This wouldn't do her any favors with respect to college costs either. Plus if something happens where we'd have needed the money, say the market drags for a decade or two and our stash isn't nearly as large as I model, it preemptively takes a third of it out of our hands.

I'm not an expert at optimizing generational wealth transfer, but I will note a few things:
1) Moving part of the land (and associated income) into your daughter's name probably won't do anything for your immediate ACA cliff situation. The premium tax credits look at your total household income, including dependents. Only once she's no longer your tax dependent would this make a difference there.
2) Moving part of the land into your daughter's name wouldn't do much for the immediate income tax piece either. The "kiddie tax" makes a kid's unearned income over $2,600 be generally taxed at the parent's rate. You can (and perhaps should) take advantage of the lower rates on this $2,600 allowance, but it's probably not going to move the needle a whole lot. This year I just started moving a few shares of appreciated mutual funds into an UTMA account for each of my kids to sell it and get a small amount of free capital gains, with a plan to then withdraw that money for kid-related expenses. This way it won't build up much of a balance over time that would affect college financial aid and such.

So maybe you could tentatively plan to transfer some of this land over once your daughter has filed her last FAFSA so that it's off your books by the time she leaves your tax family.

secondcor521

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2025, 02:38:36 PM »
So maybe you could tentatively plan to transfer some of this land over once your daughter has filed her last FAFSA so that it's off your books by the time she leaves your tax family.

Good points that I removed for brevity.

On the above, you need to learn about gift taxes once you get to the kind of numbers OP is suggesting.  Basically: $19K per donor / donee pair per year, above that you file a form and it goes against your lifetime exemption amount ($13.99M per person this year, dropping to half that next year unless Congress acts).

MrGreen

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2025, 06:23:04 AM »
@midweststache My remaining concern about the land lease scenario is definitely all tax strategy, and would have been more appropriate for that subforum. In my original post I thought there was a broader issue, which admittedly was still tax related, but it was so confounding I thought having more eyes on it in Ask A Mustachian might be more helpful. Of course it turned out to be my error. The trust ideas are worth exploring, at least to the point where I understand how that would impact taxes, who gets the money, etc. The reality is that our stash is probably large enough now to support our daughter through college and helping her in young adulthood, if we so chose, without any of this land lease income. It's basically a significant bonus.

@seattlecyclone I've been trying to investigate whether we could set up a small business 401k, if we moved the land to an LLC ownership, and contribute our daughter's share to her 401k account. Though as a part owner, I'm not sure she could do that. I don't think I can contribute rental profits to a 401k, just an IRA but the limits on those is low enough that they're not as useful as I'd like. Perhaps we could employ our daughter. We'd have to pay FICA taxes though, at least the employer part. The remaining 92.35% could be put into her 401k potentially. These are lines of inquiry I've never had to explore before so I need to do some reading.

@secondcor521 gifting the land to our daughter post-FAFSA is an option worth exploring as well. She'll probably be 6 when this income stream starts so potentially half of the 30 year term would be left.

GilesMM

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2025, 07:33:08 AM »
At a certain point, and it seems to happen around age 55, you realize you have more money than you're ever going to spend, the federal government is going to get probably 2x% of it every year, and you lose interest in the optimization problems because you can tell your heirs are going to be OK without their inheritance from you.  The compounding just sort of hits afterburners, even when there are bad years like 2022 or slumps / freak outs like the current one.

I still do the tax math every year and do Roth conversions usually up to one of the ACA-related limits, but if I go under or over by $10K it won't make any practical difference other than probably bother me on principle.


At that stage it is also good to think hard about 1) how to best spend what you have to move the needle on happiness AND reducing net worth (which ought to be peak around 50 if you are doing it right) and 2) how to optimize gifts to heirs who benefit most from ages 28-35 or so.  Many people wake up and change how they spend and gift so as not to leave so much unspent at the end.

Catbert

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2025, 10:03:38 AM »
You might go to the Fidelity website (even if you don't have an account) and poke around about trusts, generational wealth and wealth management.  I found these articles which may not work for your situation, but show that there are ways to shift things to the next generation

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/wealth-management/insights/intentionally-defective-grantor-trusts

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/wealth-management/insights/grantor-retained-annuity-trusts

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/wealth-management/insights/trusts-and-taxes

https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/wealth-management-insights/creating-generational-wealth


seattlecyclone

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Re: post-FIRE financial conundrum
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2025, 11:08:49 AM »

@seattlecyclone I've been trying to investigate whether we could set up a small business 401k, if we moved the land to an LLC ownership, and contribute our daughter's share to her 401k account. Though as a part owner, I'm not sure she could do that. I don't think I can contribute rental profits to a 401k, just an IRA but the limits on those is low enough that they're not as useful as I'd like. Perhaps we could employ our daughter. We'd have to pay FICA taxes though, at least the employer part. The remaining 92.35% could be put into her 401k potentially. These are lines of inquiry I've never had to explore before so I need to do some reading.

You generally can't contribute rental income to an IRA either. It has to be work income. So if you hire your daughter as an employee to do property management type of work, that would be compensation eligible for IRA contributions. Simply cashing rent checks does not entitle someone to contribute to an IRA.

 

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