Author Topic: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?  (Read 2805 times)

Bird In Hand

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Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« on: June 26, 2018, 01:39:16 PM »
Many years ago we moved to a new house, and used 10% of the equity on the sale of our old house to build a spendypants 18'x14' post-and-beam porch to replace a deteriorating deck.  Ipe decking, 4 huge skylights that open, floor-to ceiling screens on 3 walls, a lofted v-match pine ceiling with suspended ceiling fan/light, etc.  When it was new it was the bees knees and we got a lot of use out of it for the first few seasons.

Unfortunately the humid northeast US climate has resulted in way more required maintenance than we anticipated.   Rain + pollen + mold + snow + dust == dirty scum on every surface, which is increasingly hard to clean off every spring.  In practice we only get to use the porch ~July through ~Sept.  Now there are some holes in the screens, we're always battling carpenter bees and ants, the decking needs resealing, etc.  It's become more of a burden than a joy.
 
There are three thoughts we've had about the porch, usually triggered by the reluctant annual cleaning ritual:

1) Acknowledge that we're too lazy for the kind of maintenance it requires, so we just won't use it anymore.  Let it rot until it needs to be torn down.  Sunk cost, let bygones be bygones.  At least it provided a valuable lesson that has prevented other large impulse purchases.  But I'm pretty sure I'd hate myself a little bit every time I walk past that huge reminder of failure attached to our house (as I do now).

2) Become more proactive and just deal with the extra effort and cost required to keep it maintained.  A fairly modest expenditure of effort and cost will make it usable again -- and presumably give us a lot of enjoyment again -- for many years to come.  This sounds sensible, but I also know our tendencies, and I don't think it would be long before we slacked off on the maintenance again and ended up right back where we are now.

3) Renovate the porch to make it more like a 3 season room.  Basically this would amount to replacing the large, 4' wide by 7' tall screens with a short knee wall and (screened) windows.  Also replace some of the wood trim with PVC boards to discourage pests.  The windows would keep rain/snow/pollen out, but could be opened to let the fresh air in and make it more porch-y.  In theory this would eliminate the majority of the maintenance and also allow us to use the porch for ~9 months per year instead of ~6.  It would likely cost around $10k if I had a contractor do the work.  I think I could probably do it for half that.  Before you scold me for considering an(other) impulse buy, we had actually priced out the work when we had the porch built, but decided to put off as an eventual phase II of construction.  We've been thinking about this option off and on for years.

Putting aside any shock, horror, or outrage at the original $25k sticker or possible $10k renovation...do you have any tips on how to weigh the various options?  Maybe you've gone through something similar with a home addition and/or renovation, and have some wisdom to share.

SunnyDays

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 02:58:59 PM »
Could you hire someone to do the regular maintenance you describe in option #2 for a reasonable price?  If not, I would go for #3, IF that will truly eliminate most of your problems.  I put quite a bit of money into my backyard, but it was worth it to me because I really enjoy it now.  Remember, Mustachianism isn't about keeping costs to a bare minimum, but spending thoughtfully on things that give you a good quality of life.  If you live in a 4 season climate like I do, you want to be able to enjoy the outdoors as much as possible.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 03:26:17 PM »
Could you hire someone to do the regular maintenance you describe in option #2 for a reasonable price?  If not, I would go for #3, IF that will truly eliminate most of your problems.  I put quite a bit of money into my backyard, but it was worth it to me because I really enjoy it now.  Remember, Mustachianism isn't about keeping costs to a bare minimum, but spending thoughtfully on things that give you a good quality of life.  If you live in a 4 season climate like I do, you want to be able to enjoy the outdoors as much as possible.

In theory we could hire someone to do the maintenance.  I have a mental hangup about that though.  I reaaaaalllly hate paying for someone to do a job that I'm easily capable of doing, in most cases.  Especially a recurring cost that I can look forward to paying once or twice a year forever.  But that's probably not enough of a reason to take this option of the table.

I do think that a 3 season porch would eliminate most of the maintenance issues that we have right now, and I think we'd end up using the porch far more frequently, and for 50% more of the year than now.  But I'm wary of falling for this idealized vision only to be burned by it later -- that's what happened with the original porch after all -- and I might be underestimating the maintenance involved in 3-season porches.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I'm glad you're able to enjoy your fancypants back yard.  :)

robartsd

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2018, 04:22:07 PM »
I think I'd lean towards option 3. Closing it off to unfavorable elements will be very helpful in reducing maintenance. The only concern I have is the mold. Even if the mold might not have become established had you made it a 3 season porch initially, it might be well enough established to continue being a problem. I'd do research into this before making a final decision.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 02:00:43 PM »
I think I'd lean towards option 3. Closing it off to unfavorable elements will be very helpful in reducing maintenance. The only concern I have is the mold. Even if the mold might not have become established had you made it a 3 season porch initially, it might be well enough established to continue being a problem. I'd do research into this before making a final decision.

Good point.  I actually don't know what it is, except for "gunk that typically accumulates on outdoor wood surfaces like decking and siding".  The interior v-match pine siding and ceiling are polyurethane coated, and whatever the gunk is seems to come off with gentle scrubbing.  The ipe decking doesn't really seem to have much of that at all -- more just an always-replenishing coat of pollen.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2018, 02:07:24 PM »
I did some more research and I found an affordable alternative to custom glass windows.  There are several companies that sell screened aluminum window frames with sliding vinyl window panels.  The most popular one seems to be Eze-Breeze.  I think we could do the whole porch for ~$3k or so, and it looks like a relatively easy DIY project.

I'll have to look into the pros and cons of vinyl vs glass, but it's definitely an interesting option to consider.

historienne

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 03:14:33 PM »
I did some more research and I found an affordable alternative to custom glass windows.  There are several companies that sell screened aluminum window frames with sliding vinyl window panels.  The most popular one seems to be Eze-Breeze.  I think we could do the whole porch for ~$3k or so, and it looks like a relatively easy DIY project.

I'll have to look into the pros and cons of vinyl vs glass, but it's definitely an interesting option to consider.

My parents put something like this on their screened porch.  It works well for making it more pleasant during the shoulder seasons and keeping out pollen.  It does not make it significantly less humid, although it might do so if you threw in a dehumidifier as necessary.  Presumably, though, there's not a ton of insulation in the floor (which is just decking?) or roof.  My parents at least have a poured concrete floor and an insulated attic over the porch, which I think probably also helps things out.  To the extent that humidity is the problem, though, I'd really want to think through whether turning your porch into, essentially, a sunhouse is going to solve that problem.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2018, 08:48:16 PM »
My parents put something like this on their screened porch.  It works well for making it more pleasant during the shoulder seasons and keeping out pollen.  It does not make it significantly less humid, although it might do so if you threw in a dehumidifier as necessary.  Presumably, though, there's not a ton of insulation in the floor (which is just decking?) or roof.  My parents at least have a poured concrete floor and an insulated attic over the porch, which I think probably also helps things out.  To the extent that humidity is the problem, though, I'd really want to think through whether turning your porch into, essentially, a sunhouse is going to solve that problem.

There's no escaping the humidity in an uninsulated 3-season porch!  While the roof is insulated, the floor is just ipe decking with no insulation.  I expect the interior of the porch will always have +/- the same humidity as outdoors, especially since the windows will typically be down when we're using the porch.  Not to mention we typically crack open the screened skylights to let the heat out and aid in circulation on hot days.

The primary purpose of the windows would be to keep out pollen, rain, and snow in order to protect the interior of the porch and its contents from accumulating outdoor gunk so quickly.

The secondary purpose of the windows would be to keep in some heat (e.g., if we used a portable space heater) + cut down on breeze so we can more comfortably enjoy the porch earlier in the spring and later into the fall.  Maybe also during the winter on nicer days.

Finally, it would be nice to partially close the windows and still be able to use the porch while it's raining.  Currently that only works with a  light rain and no wind; otherwise the wind blows the rain through the screen and we pack up and head inside.

MrSal

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 10:04:01 PM »
Many years ago we moved to a new house, and used 10% of the equity on the sale of our old house to build a spendypants 18'x14' post-and-beam porch to replace a deteriorating deck.  Ipe decking, 4 huge skylights that open, floor-to ceiling screens on 3 walls, a lofted v-match pine ceiling with suspended ceiling fan/light, etc.  When it was new it was the bees knees and we got a lot of use out of it for the first few seasons.

Unfortunately the humid northeast US climate has resulted in way more required maintenance than we anticipated.   Rain + pollen + mold + snow + dust == dirty scum on every surface, which is increasingly hard to clean off every spring.  In practice we only get to use the porch ~July through ~Sept.  Now there are some holes in the screens, we're always battling carpenter bees and ants, the decking needs resealing, etc.  It's become more of a burden than a joy.
 
There are three thoughts we've had about the porch, usually triggered by the reluctant annual cleaning ritual:

1) Acknowledge that we're too lazy for the kind of maintenance it requires, so we just won't use it anymore.  Let it rot until it needs to be torn down.  Sunk cost, let bygones be bygones.  At least it provided a valuable lesson that has prevented other large impulse purchases.  But I'm pretty sure I'd hate myself a little bit every time I walk past that huge reminder of failure attached to our house (as I do now).

2) Become more proactive and just deal with the extra effort and cost required to keep it maintained.  A fairly modest expenditure of effort and cost will make it usable again -- and presumably give us a lot of enjoyment again -- for many years to come.  This sounds sensible, but I also know our tendencies, and I don't think it would be long before we slacked off on the maintenance again and ended up right back where we are now.

3) Renovate the porch to make it more like a 3 season room.  Basically this would amount to replacing the large, 4' wide by 7' tall screens with a short knee wall and (screened) windows.  Also replace some of the wood trim with PVC boards to discourage pests.  The windows would keep rain/snow/pollen out, but could be opened to let the fresh air in and make it more porch-y.  In theory this would eliminate the majority of the maintenance and also allow us to use the porch for ~9 months per year instead of ~6.  It would likely cost around $10k if I had a contractor do the work.  I think I could probably do it for half that.  Before you scold me for considering an(other) impulse buy, we had actually priced out the work when we had the porch built, but decided to put off as an eventual phase II of construction.  We've been thinking about this option off and on for years.

Putting aside any shock, horror, or outrage at the original $25k sticker or possible $10k renovation...do you have any tips on how to weigh the various options?  Maybe you've gone through something similar with a home addition and/or renovation, and have some wisdom to share.

IPE will take a loooooong time to rot... so you can actually be a little more careless... as an example the boardwalk from my hometown by the beach is IPE and its been there, without ANY maintenance for about 30 years with thousands of people walking on it daily and still going super strong!

It just grays instead of keeping the honey tone colors if you keep doing maintenance

Bird In Hand

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Re: Porch renovation: throwing good money after bad?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 08:20:25 AM »
IPE will take a loooooong time to rot... so you can actually be a little more careless... as an example the boardwalk from my hometown by the beach is IPE and its been there, without ANY maintenance for about 30 years with thousands of people walking on it daily and still going super strong!

It just grays instead of keeping the honey tone colors if you keep doing maintenance

Agreed!  The ipe decking in my porch -- once I scrub off the pollen and other scum that accumulates -- looks remarkably similar to how it did when it was first installed almost a decade ago.  Because it doesn't get a lot of direct sunlight, most of the decking still has the original Messmers UV stain.  Kind of shocking given how dense the wood is and (hence) how little stain the wood absorbs.

The small bit of ipe on the stairs outside the covered porch and in direct sunlight has weathered, and while it doesn't look as nice as the stuff in the porch, I'm sure it will last for decades.

When I referred to "let it rot" I meant the rest of the porch.  It's made from 6"x6" and 8"x6" pine posts and beams, v-match pine for the interior wall against the house and ceiling, asphalt shingles, and of course PT lumber for the deck framing.  All of that stuff I expect to degrade much sooner than the ipe.  Though -- apart from the crud that accumulates on the surface and can be scrubbed off -- all of the pine was polyurethane coated and still looks new.

 

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