Author Topic: Buying a "fun" truck?  (Read 6130 times)

mayodt

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Buying a "fun" truck?
« on: March 05, 2018, 07:38:47 AM »
Hey guys,

I've been fantasizing for as long as I remember about getting an old diesel pickup truck. I currently work a job where I am expected to use my personal vehicle for ~15000 miles a year so I drive a car for better fuel economy. I had a pickup truck (not my "dream" truck) but I loved it, the ability to haul and tow is amazing but I couldn't justify the costs. I have now accepted a different position and they have work vehicles for me to use, they prefer I use a work vehicle or rent a vehicle over using my personal vehicle. I live ~4 miles from my new work so I am planning to bike to work most of the time. So, I no longer really require a reliable vehicle or even a fuel efficient vehicle, since it will purely be for personal use (>4 mile trips, winter driving, towing/hauling). (Also to note, I live with my girlfriend and she has an older somewhat reliable car, so if the truck is out of commission for whatever reason, we can share her car)

So, is it a stupid idea to sell my current car (2015 Corolla, just bought it about 6 months ago to replace my truck) and buy an old diesel pickup truck? I love wrenching on vehicles myself, so I would definitely work on the truck myself (as much as I can at least, I live in an apartment complex, I have done oil changes and some various other things on my past truck in the parking lot and nobody has ever said anything). I realize it is obviously the cheapest path to completely sell my car and just use my girlfriend's car when I require a vehicle vs. a bike, but isn't there a fine line we should walk where we need to have some fun?

Tl;dr: I will only be driving a personal vehicle ~5000 miles a year (or less), I've always dreamed about having an old diesel pickup truck, is it stupid to get this "fun" vehicle?

Thanks in advance!


RWD

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 07:58:26 AM »
It depends on your current financial picture (and I suppose how much you care about the planet). You're probably looking at $750 to $1000 annually in fuel. From a practical standpoint it's almost always better to just rent a truck when you need one.

mayodt

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 08:10:12 AM »
I'm doing decent financially, I have a saving rate of 20%+ most months and I'm contributing about 5%+2.5% employer matched into my retirement plans on the side (I'm currently 23 years old). I have run the numbers and I realize how much money this would waste, I guess I'm just wondering where is the line of "waste" and "fun". I would plan to have this truck for as long as I have space to hold onto it, I'm extremely interested in working on it from head to toe and replacing engines, transmissions, etc. if that needs to happen.

I've also noticed since I have changed my truck over to my car, I have been doing a lot less "DIY" projects, I will have an idea and then I think I can't fit that into my car so never mind. I love working with my hands and building things, so this has saddened me. I am also very interested in starting to take up the hobby of off roading, which is obviously not possible in a car at any serious level aha. Also, in the future I hope to get some "toys" and I'll need to tow/haul these around once and a while.

But, even with all these "positives" for me, I can't shake the costs:
Truck: $4000-$8000
Fuel/yr: ~$2000 (I am in Canada, it's approximately $1.3/liter of diesel right now, assuming 10000km driven a year, 15L/100km fuel economy)
Maintenance/Repairs: I would budget probably $400/mo for the first couple of years to get it built up to what I want and to account for major failures if they happen.
Insurance: Lower than my current car, since I would not get full coverage for an old pickup truck

You guys must splurge in some areas right? How do you decide if it's stupid or worth it for the happiness?

Thanks!

RWD

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2018, 08:37:43 AM »
20% is not bad but it's pretty low by this forum's standards. That only gets you to financial independence around age 60 (assuming you're currently around $0 net worth). I assume this truck would decrease your savings rate? You should focus on meeting your long term financial goals before immediate gratification.

I understand splurging in certain areas as we just bought a [used] Porsche. But we also have a savings rate of 70%+ and a net worth of over $500k.

mayodt

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2018, 08:50:37 AM »

This would be a hard no in my book. I wouldn't even think about this unless my savings rate was >50%. If you enjoy being a mechanic, why don't you see if you could pick up a few hours a week at a garage or doing auto work for friends and family. Make money and scratch that auto itch vs. blowing a bunch of dollars out of a tail pipe.

This is a good point - Maybe I will try to do this. It might be hard though because my new job requires travel so I will probably not be able to hold onto a part time job on the side. I just don't know what to do with my free time and working with a truck seems like a good time. I also love doing home repairs but this is also not a possibility when I live in an apartment and none of my friends have their own houses either. I should definitely look into doing one or both of these part time though, any ideas where I should look? Not many places seem to hire part time people for this kind of work (especially because my FT job will be approximately 8-5 every weekday), but I guess I have to go and ask around.

20% is not bad but it's pretty low by this forum's standards. That only gets you to financial independence around age 60 (assuming you're currently around $0 net worth). I assume this truck would decrease your savings rate? You should focus on meeting your long term financial goals before immediate gratification.

I understand splurging in certain areas as we just bought a [used] Porsche. But we also have a savings rate of 70%+ and a net worth of over $500k.

Okay, I probably average about 30% but some months are lower and my net worth isn't even close to that as I am only 23 (Luckily I had some help for tuition from my parents so I at least have a positive net worth as I graduated about 8 months ago). The purchase would proabably lower my savings rate a few percent but it would increase my net worth at first because I would sell my newer car (worth ~$12000) for an older truck (worth ~$8000). I just don't know what do with my free time, I love doing physical work and I can't remember a time I've ever been "burned out" before, I get myself in trouble when I have free time and think too much. Any ideas where I can look for additional work?

Thanks! 

TheAnonOne

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2018, 08:58:22 AM »
I bought a few 'unnecessary' vehicles when I was 19->25 (only 27 now)

Probably hurt my FIRE date by at LEAST a year, but I still have 2 of them. One is a car I use to autocross and another is a motorcycle that I just ride around (a decent amount at that)

Point being I am going to FIRE when I am around 31 according to all numbers but my savings rate is around 75%.

If you can get your SR up, mainly by increasing your income to 100k or more, a few bad choices won't derail you too much.

Of course, we are all assuming FIRE is the #1 goal for you, considering the forum this is.

mayodt

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 09:11:50 AM »
I bought a few 'unnecessary' vehicles when I was 19->25 (only 27 now)

Probably hurt my FIRE date by at LEAST a year, but I still have 2 of them. One is a car I use to autocross and another is a motorcycle that I just ride around (a decent amount at that)

Point being I am going to FIRE when I am around 31 according to all numbers but my savings rate is around 75%.

If you can get your SR up, mainly by increasing your income to 100k or more, a few bad choices won't derail you too much.

Of course, we are all assuming FIRE is the #1 goal for you, considering the forum this is.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have any tips for me to increase my income to such a high level? I figure I am only a few years behind you in age and you must have climbed the ladder pretty fast and not started out of school at that kind of pay. If it matters, I'm in Canada and just graduated with a civil engineering degree but looking at what others make around me, even fully certified engineers (takes 4 years after school to become an "engineer", at least in Ontario), make around $60-$70k a year, which I am still 2+ years away from and I believe most civil engineers even with 10+ years experience would be lucky making $100k+.

Thank you for the input!


If the truck fits with your financial plan and there’s nothing else you would rather splurge on, then go ahead and spend on “fun”. If it doesn’t fit with your financial plan or there are other things you may want to splurge on in the future, then you need to examine it carefully and determine what it’s actually worth to you. Is it worth working longer? Will you regret it when you can’t afford indulging in something else in the future?


Hmm okay, I guess I have to think about this myself. I don't really have a "plan", I just know saving money will give me greater opportunities in the future. I guess my only "plan" is that I definitely don't want to live in the city, but around here that seems unlikely in the next 10 years with the amount of pay vs. cost of housing in my area... (currently making around $50k and living with my girlfriend that makes ~$30k and any decent houses out of the city are $500,000+).

I imagine it is normal for a 23 year old to have no clear direction, right?

Thanks!

GuitarStv

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 09:16:53 AM »
Can I buy something that I don't need, that will take a bite out of my savings, because I think owning stuff will make me happy?

Really?

FFS, no.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 12:00:28 PM »
I bought a few 'unnecessary' vehicles when I was 19->25 (only 27 now)

Probably hurt my FIRE date by at LEAST a year, but I still have 2 of them. One is a car I use to autocross and another is a motorcycle that I just ride around (a decent amount at that)

Point being I am going to FIRE when I am around 31 according to all numbers but my savings rate is around 75%.

If you can get your SR up, mainly by increasing your income to 100k or more, a few bad choices won't derail you too much.

Of course, we are all assuming FIRE is the #1 goal for you, considering the forum this is.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have any tips for me to increase my income to such a high level? I figure I am only a few years behind you in age and you must have climbed the ladder pretty fast and not started out of school at that kind of pay. If it matters, I'm in Canada and just graduated with a civil engineering degree but looking at what others make around me, even fully certified engineers (takes 4 years after school to become an "engineer", at least in Ontario), make around $60-$70k a year, which I am still 2+ years away from and I believe most civil engineers even with 10+ years experience would be lucky making $100k+.

Thank you for the input!


Well, savings rate can be a factor of income or expenses (though both is obviously best) I started in software and began my career at 19. I think I had 100k income around 23.

That being said, its just a math problem. It's pretty easy to give people passes who make 200k to blow 10-20 grand on a one time fun toy, and pretty hard to give people pass who blow 6-9 MONTHS of income on something that doesn't help them.

Gondolin

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2018, 12:22:21 PM »
I would deeply consider why you're always "dreamt of owning an old diesel truck" and what that would really buy you emotionally vs other uses of this money.

Personally, this "slurge" you're considering is x2-3 year's worth of splurging to me and that's not even considering the ongoing costs.

It's major purchase that would get a hard pass from me.

JLee

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 12:51:14 PM »
I don't think you have the right environment for a project.  Hauling tools in and out, dealing with weather, and then the inevitable complaints that are likely to happen if you do any significant maintenance are going to eventually add up to something that's not worth the hassle.

At least wait until you have a driveway to work in, if not a garage.

Fishindude

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 01:20:04 PM »
I don't think you have the right environment for a project.  Hauling tools in and out, dealing with weather, and then the inevitable complaints that are likely to happen if you do any significant maintenance are going to eventually add up to something that's not worth the hassle.

At least wait until you have a driveway to work in, if not a garage.

These are my thoughts as well.  Plus a noisy diesel in the apartment parking lot won't make you too popular.
I don't see a problem with you getting a truck for part time transportation and a "toy", but I'd recommend a quiet gasoline fueled rig, and something more late model and reliable you won't be working on all the time.

Panfish

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 03:44:50 PM »
Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

chasesfish

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 07:04:53 PM »
Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

I'm kind of on this camp too...if you have an inch to turn a wrench and want to hold a diesel truck, make your side gig slow buying/reselling of 2-3 diesel trucks per year.  There's some limit of how many before the governmental entities will come calling.

A friend of mine has the crazy itch to always own a really high end sports car, he's turned his hobby into slow-flipping 10-15 year old high end European sports cars.  The guy loves buying them from rural buyers and driving them back to his big metro markets.  He wins some, he looses some, I doubt the per-hour value is there, but the guy loves spending the hours polishing one up, caring for it in his garage, then selling it for a small profit when he's bored.

Best of luck

mayodt

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2018, 08:52:04 AM »
Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

The preference would be a first generation dodge cummins truck (~1989 to 1993) or 2nd gen dodge cummins (1993-1998), with manual transmission being preference. I've only heard good things about the 12 valve engines dodge put in their heavy duty trucks from 1989 to 1998 so that is my preference. Although, the last couple of years when I have been "searching" for them, any decent truck with those specifications is $10,000+, often significantly more.

I have looked into older diesel Ford trucks, but I have read almost exclusively bad things about any of the diesel engines Ford has put in their trucks, I don't know how true they are but I am under the impression that the Ford diesel engines are unreliable. I have also read that the Ford diesel engines get significantly worse fuel economy than the 12 valve or even 24 valve cummins engines (pre-DPF, now they appear to be about the same). But, the Ford trucks in the age range you are talking about seem to be ranging from $3000-$10000 in my area, so they are significantly cheaper than the dodges I'm looking at.

Also, regarding the buying and reselling, wouldn't it be hard to make a profit due to sales tax? Where I live in Ontario there is 13% sales tax so even if I got say a $5000 truck (+$650 taxes), and I somehow sold it for $6000 a year later, I would only profit $350? Also, how could you possibly raise the value of the truck without putting money into it?

Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

I'm kind of on this camp too...if you have an inch to turn a wrench and want to hold a diesel truck, make your side gig slow buying/reselling of 2-3 diesel trucks per year.  There's some limit of how many before the governmental entities will come calling.

Best of luck

Hmm, yes this would be something I would be very interested in doing but I feel I'm too early in my "adult" life to be doing this yet. I am hoping eventually to live out in a rural area with some property so at that point I would have the space available to do something like this. For now, I am stuck in an apartment aha. I imagine your friend has at least a personal driveway to work on these cars?

Thanks!

Panfish

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2018, 11:37:03 AM »
Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

The preference would be a first generation dodge cummins truck (~1989 to 1993) or 2nd gen dodge cummins (1993-1998), with manual transmission being preference. I've only heard good things about the 12 valve engines dodge put in their heavy duty trucks from 1989 to 1998 so that is my preference. Although, the last couple of years when I have been "searching" for them, any decent truck with those specifications is $10,000+, often significantly more.

I have looked into older diesel Ford trucks, but I have read almost exclusively bad things about any of the diesel engines Ford has put in their trucks, I don't know how true they are but I am under the impression that the Ford diesel engines are unreliable. I have also read that the Ford diesel engines get significantly worse fuel economy than the 12 valve or even 24 valve cummins engines (pre-DPF, now they appear to be about the same). But, the Ford trucks in the age range you are talking about seem to be ranging from $3000-$10000 in my area, so they are significantly cheaper than the dodges I'm looking at.

Also, regarding the buying and reselling, wouldn't it be hard to make a profit due to sales tax? Where I live in Ontario there is 13% sales tax so even if I got say a $5000 truck (+$650 taxes), and I somehow sold it for $6000 a year later, I would only profit $350? Also, how could you possibly raise the value of the truck without putting money into it?

Out of curiosity, what year and model are you looking at getting?  I had a 2001 Ford Superduty with a 6 speed manual and 7.3 Powerstroke.  Best vehicle I have ever owned and I was sad to let it go.  I was able to sell it for a $3k profit after i moved all my belongings in it and I didn't have a use for such a large vehicle anymore.

I'm kind of on this camp too...if you have an inch to turn a wrench and want to hold a diesel truck, make your side gig slow buying/reselling of 2-3 diesel trucks per year.  There's some limit of how many before the governmental entities will come calling.

Best of luck

Hmm, yes this would be something I would be very interested in doing but I feel I'm too early in my "adult" life to be doing this yet. I am hoping eventually to live out in a rural area with some property so at that point I would have the space available to do something like this. For now, I am stuck in an apartment aha. I imagine your friend has at least a personal driveway to work on these cars?

Thanks!

While the 12 valve 5.9 Cummins is maybe the best engine (not just diesel) ever made the 7.3 Powerstroke is not to far behind.  Ford and Powerstrokes got a bad rap when it went down to the 6.0 in 2003 and the heads blew apart on most of them before 100,000 miles.  If you google the 7.3 and reliability (especially with a manual, though they are very hard to find) you will find a lot of these pickups with 300,000+ miles.  The biggest issues i see with 7.3's is the gasket between the engine and tranny tends to leak so watch out for that.  Mine even got 19 mpg going down the interstate at 80 mph. In my opinion the Fords are much better trucks and have way less rust issues than the Dodge's, but you can't go wrong either way (as long as it's not a 12 mpg Chevy Diesel).

FINate

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2018, 12:06:57 PM »
I disagree with those suggesting that wanting a truck is an "emotional" desire. Folks around here love to disparage truck owners - the implication is that usually they're trying to compensate for something. Yes, it does happen where people buy huge trucks as daily drivers, which is extremely wasteful. But a truck used primarily for its intended purposes is a wonderful thing. There are certain things you just cannot do with a car, wagon, or small SUV. Towing capacity is crap on most cars, and no, I do not think it's a good idea to exceed towing capacity limits. There are certain places you just cannot go without higher clearance and more durable tires, and the utility of a truck is great for hauling stuff. I have a 4WD truck with camper shell and love it, but almost never drive it unless I'm using it to haul stuff or going on unpaved/unmaintained roads. Last year it was less than 5000 miles, almost all of which was camping/hunting trips where it actually made sense, a few dump runs, hauling trailers, etc. Almost all of my trips around town are via an electric assist cargo bike, which I also haul the kids around on. IMO, a used truck that's only used for what it's designed for makes sense.

That said, you're savings rate is too low. I think you're better off getting your savings rate up and getting to FI(RE) ASAP, and then consider getting an old truck.

JLee

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2018, 12:26:44 PM »
The sales tax thing is huge. Where I used to live, there was no sales tax on private party vehicle sales so flipping was easier. Here, you're losing 13% right off the top...much harder to break even / make a profit.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2018, 04:05:00 PM »
Can I buy something that I don't need, that will take a bite out of my savings, because I think owning stuff will make me happy?

Really?

FFS, no.

Also, best post of the thread.

This. And if I ma be so bold as to quote some other guy from some other thread, "what the fuck forum do you think this is?" Have you actually read much of the MMM blog? Because buying an old shitty truck that gets shitty gas mileage just for fun goes against pretty much the whole basis of mustachianism. Just thought I should point that out, in case you thought you posted on another forum.

Aggie1999

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2018, 08:36:18 AM »
IMO, FIRE thinking is all about saving a large chunk of income while doing things that make you happy. If owning/working on an old truck makes you happy then go for it as long as you are saving a large percentage of your income. No different than spending money on making beer, fancy bicycles, etc. Get your savings rate up to 50%+ then go for the truck if you think you will enjoy it. If you find out you don't enjoy it like you thought you would sell it and move on.

neo von retorch

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
Value-based Living

We get into debates like this a lot... right and wrong. As we learn, we realize we want to spend very consciously, deliberately, according to our values. And we do each have different values. But we do share some, and one thing we're hoping we can educate others on, are the "values" that get implanted in our heads by advertising and a consumer-oriented culture.

Many of us grew up seeing commercials with tough gals and guys driving big trucks. The 90s Dodge RAM is an interesting example of this. My dad always joked that it looks like they designed it based on big tractor trailers, so little kids (inside adult bodies) could feel like they are driving a big rig. It takes some tough self-examination to figure out if a childhood "dream" is just a manifestation of marketing.

What you've described were some rationalizations for an unnecessary purchase, such as it being a dream you've always had, more DIY projects with a truck, etc. But you have some false dichotomies going on. You can sell your newer vehicle without replacing it with a truck. You can resume DIY projects without a truck. (I drive a hatchback - I bring home 8' pieces of wood when I need to.) You can also get yourself in a better financial position, make sure you have a place to really wrench on your truck, and then get an old diesel truck to wrench on. (I'm still feeling really old, hearing that Dodge RAM pickups from the 90s are "old.")

If you can sell your newer car privately, and buy an older used hatchback privately, you can minimize transaction costs and loss from bad deals (trade-ins at dealerships are bad deals.) You can probably also reduce your monthly insurance bill, maintain good gas mileage and move yourself towards much better financial picture. This doesn't mean giving up your dream, or any and all fun in the world. It just means you set priorities, you optimize your life to achieve a broader spectrum of goals that align with the values you're building, and when you finally do give in to the "fun" desires, you do it quite consciously and without the doubts that (correctly) led you to asking a forum of wizened old frugal strangers what to do.

FINate

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2018, 10:23:31 AM »
LS, I see your point and agree to a certain extent.

However, OP did state he desired towing/hauling capabilities, and off roading. The term "off roading" can mean many different things, so not sure what OP has in mind. IMO spending a ton on off roading gear is wasteful and not appealing to me, especially if not already FI, but OP may want to just get into the mountains on USFS/BLM "roads" (I use that term generously) and the like. IMO these are perfectly reasonable things for a truck and can be quite Mustachian if one is not using it to commute and vacation is a camping trip into the local mountains.

It's very Mustachian to do your own work on your vehicle. Nothing wrong with enjoying it.

The other toys/hobbies comments, yeah, could be bad depending on what he has in mind. But again, I think this largely depends on what toys, how many, and his financial situation.

Will simply buying stuff many you happy? No. But having hobbies and doing stuff you enjoy is good for mental health, and a truck done right can be a great tool for this, though I agree that OP's not in a position financially to buy a old truck.

There is a MMM bias here I'd like to pick on a bit. Trucks are generally regarded here as wasteful and environmentally unfriendly. Yet many here would be ok with, or even think it's really cool, to buy a Westfalia or VW camper van. But these vehicles have worse MPG than many pickups with almost no cargo or tow capacity. It's considered acceptable only because the #vanlife is associated with the counterculture, all the product of carefully curated lifestyle marketing. Or, as another example, let's consider air travel. Flying across the US has a huge carbon footprint...one round trip is about equal to a full year of average driving. Yet no one really blinks an eye when it comes to international/cross-continent vacations. It's considered acceptable because this is associated with being educated and urbane. It's all virtue signaling.

So my main issue with OP getting a truck is the same issue I would have with him wanting to jet off to South America - he's simply not in a position financially do to so.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 10:28:32 AM by FINate »

GuitarStv

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2018, 10:55:39 AM »
Trucks are generally regarded here as wasteful and environmentally unfriendly. Yet many here would be ok with, or even think it's really cool, to buy a Westfalia or VW camper van. But these vehicles have worse MPG than many pickups with almost no cargo or tow capacity. It's considered acceptable only because the #vanlife is associated with the counterculture, all the product of carefully curated lifestyle marketing. Or, as another example, let's consider air travel. Flying across the US has a huge carbon footprint...one round trip is about equal to a full year of average driving. Yet no one really blinks an eye when it comes to international/cross-continent vacations. It's considered acceptable because this is associated with being educated and urbane. It's all virtue signaling.

I don't support owning any vehicle if it's possible not to (living in a camper van instead of a house might get a pass), and consider air travel to be something best avoided.  But that aside . . .

It's a terrible argument to say 'other people do stuff that's awful, therefore I should be able to as well'.  That's just a race to the bottom where everyone loses.  If you see people about to do something wrong, voice your concerns and try to make the world a better place.  Don't point at them as justification for more bad decisions.

FINate

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2018, 12:00:37 PM »
I don't support owning any vehicle if it's possible not to (living in a camper van instead of a house might get a pass), and consider air travel to be something best avoided.  But that aside . . .

It's a terrible argument to say 'other people do stuff that's awful, therefore I should be able to as well'.  That's just a race to the bottom where everyone loses.  If you see people about to do something wrong, voice your concerns and try to make the world a better place.  Don't point at them as justification for more bad decisions.

Pete has been pretty clear that MMM is about getting people to live less wasteful lives rather than perfect lives. He's made a point to talk about his travels to Hawaii and South America, and the fact that he has a smartphone and drinks beer and smokes weed. I don't have a problem with any of these even though they are luxuries and therefore wasteful (beer and weed production especially are both energy intensive). But as the saying goes "what you win them with is what you win them to." In this case, Pete has spread his message with the idea that you don't have to live a life of extreme austerity to save the planet. If everyone drove less and stop consuming reflexively then the planet would be much better off. Oh, and you can still live life and enjoy and retire early. It's all about being mindful of what you are spending and why rather than being on autopilot spending for the sake of spending.

IMO, if you bike to work and can truly afford a vehicle that's used only for the occasional fun outing (van, truck, whatever) then I think this fits with MMM.

If you want to go one better than Pete and eschew all luxuries/enjoyment that's fine and noble. But that's not what MMM has advocated, nor will it have broad appeal. 

shawndoggy

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2018, 12:17:22 PM »
Owning a 30 year old vehicle is a labor of love.  There are fewer and fewer of them on the road every year.  Know why?  Because the cost of maintaining them exceeds their value.  So understand that you will eventually be "wasting" money.

Personally I think this sounds like a freaking terrible idea.  You live in canada and would have this rig parked outside and think that you'd be performing your own maintenance?  I know canadians are tough, but I can't imagine trying to change a wheel bearing or flush a cooling system or whatever when it's cold, dark and snowy.  yuck.

IMHO, save this dream for a little later... like when you can afford for it to be what it really is -- a hobby.  At the very least until you have a house with a garage, where you could do the kind of maintenance you dream of doing (and where you could easily keep all of those tools you'll want to buy to do the work).

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2018, 12:26:03 PM »
With a 20% savings rate I wouldn't. The cost of that truck could easily mean the difference between a decade or two of work in the long term.

Get rid of both cars and use the GF's, save like a madman, when your networth is higher, and your income allows a much higher savings rate, I would reconsider at that point. By then you might not even care about the truck, freedom is way more important once you internalize it.

Laura33

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2018, 02:17:19 PM »
I'm doing decent financially, I have a saving rate of 20%+ most months and I'm contributing about 5%+2.5% employer matched into my retirement plans on the side (I'm currently 23 years old). I have run the numbers and I realize how much money this would waste, I guess I'm just wondering where is the line of "waste" and "fun".

. . . .

You guys must splurge in some areas right? How do you decide if it's stupid or worth it for the happiness?

Needs first, then wants.

1.  Do you have an emergency fund?  Sounds like it, given that you are putting aside 20%.  Good job.
2.  Do you have any high-interest debt?  Doesn't sound like it, so good for you.
3.  Are you maxing out your tax-advantaged retirement funds?  It doesn't sound like it, but I don't know the Canadian system.  If you are not, you need to do this before you pursue toys.
4.  Are you saving at a rate that will allow you to reach financial independence on the schedule that will make you happy?  Sounds like you don't know the answer to that, because you don't have a plan, other than "sooner is better."  So take a look at this:  https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/.  Mull over what the various savings rates mean in terms of your future freedom.  Figure out some rate that balances Current You and Future You at an acceptable level.
5.  Do you have any other important goals you want to save for, like a future home or kids?  Are you putting aside a sufficient amount for that?
6.  Now you may think about a toy.

BTW, if you really like DIY, there are many ways to do that without buying a pickup.  Borrow one, rent one, use a hatchback, use a minivan, attach a trailer to a bike like MMM does, etc. etc. etc.  A good rule of life is to always start by seeing what you can do with what you have, and "upgrading" your tools/toys only when what you have is actually and demonstrably holding you back. 

Phoenix_Fire

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2018, 02:44:33 PM »

Maintenance/Repairs: I would budget probably $400/mo for the first couple of years to get it built up to what I want and to account for major failures if they happen.

You're going to budget nearly $5k a year to fix the truck up the way you want for a couple of years?!? Hell no!!!

If you truly want to get to FI, avoiding this truck hobby will really help.  If you start spending $400 a month on this truck, how much is that going to reduce your savings rate?  When I was younger, anyone I knew that was into vehicles put all of their money into them, and it was definitely not a good financial decision.  Based on the way you were writing, it sounds like you would be severely tempted to go down that path.

Figure out what you can actually haul in your car.  Can you put the seats down?  If you still can't fit what you want, can you borrow a friends truck to get the project materials home?  No, then rent a vehicle for a couple of hours.  I don't know if you have Home Depot up in Canada where you're at, or something similar, but that would be way cheaper than what you are currently considering. 

I realize you want to develop this hobby, but you should really figure out something else that you are interested in that will not be expensive and can still bring you joy.




ChpBstrd

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2018, 04:00:23 PM »
I've noticed that men in particular tend to become infatuated and obsessed with various manufactured goods, spend hundreds or thousands of hours researching and becoming connoisseurs, join communities of like-obsessed men, and become convinced that ownership of the thing is their only possible route to contentment. Examples:

-motorcycles
-sports cars or customizations
-antique cars
-jeeps and similar off-road toys
-ATVs
-guns
-gaming computers
-cell phones
-RVs
-drones /airplanes
-home audio/visual systems
-car audio

Antique diesel trucks is a new addition to this list as far as I know! But I guess most of these common examples make noise while concentrating power/force in some way, so it makes sense from a clinical perspective.

My point and advice is to look at the bigger picture. What are the consequences of infatuation with manufactured products syndrome (IMPS)? Are you buying your way into a social club of sorts? Do your collegues in the community of connoisseurs eventually graduate to more and more expensive trucks? Is there an unspoken competitive pressure not to have the shittiest diesel truck? Do they pity those inferior people in little gas powered vehicles with only x ft/lbs of torque? Will this hobby eventually detract from your career, relationship, health, sense of self, long-term dreams, etc? Will you labor an additional 3-4 years before FIRE because at one point you scratched an itch?

Here's a sneak preview of the future from someone who's been through a series of product infatuations:

You will trade up multiple times, spending more money each time and justifying the spending by pointing to improved product specifications as evidence of "investment" value. You will bore people at parties with your stories and factoids. You will insist you are being rational because (a) product specifications and (b) the product is your only path to happiness. You will allocate very expensive real estate to the hobby/passion.

Then your interest will suddenly drop. You'll sell the product that once infatuated you and feel a certain antsiness due to a lack of passion. Then you will start researching a new type of manufactured product - perhaps a boat, or the iPhone 20, or log cabins, and repeat the IMPS cycle.

This may seem normal/acceptable because it's what others are doing. But bear in mind what will not happen. You will not FIRE. You will not establish yourself in a community that shares deeper connections with who you actually are than fellow product ownership. You will coast through your career on a lower trajectory, spending work time reading on your phone about clutch plate warping or aftermarket headlights. You will grow as a mechanic, but not in other ways.

GuitarStv

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 05:44:20 PM »
My point and advice is to look at the bigger picture. What are the consequences of infatuation with manufactured products syndrome (IMPS)? Are you buying your way into a social club of sorts? Do your collegues in the community of connoisseurs eventually graduate to more and more expensive trucks? Is there an unspoken competitive pressure not to have the shittiest diesel truck? Do they pity those inferior people in little gas powered vehicles with only x ft/lbs of torque? Will this hobby eventually detract from your career, relationship, health, sense of self, long-term dreams, etc? Will you labor an additional 3-4 years before FIRE because at one point you scratched an itch?

Here's a sneak preview of the future from someone who's been through a series of product infatuations:

You will trade up multiple times, spending more money each time and justifying the spending by pointing to improved product specifications as evidence of "investment" value. You will bore people at parties with your stories and factoids. You will insist you are being rational because (a) product specifications and (b) the product is your only path to happiness. You will allocate very expensive real estate to the hobby/passion.

Then your interest will suddenly drop. You'll sell the product that once infatuated you and feel a certain antsiness due to a lack of passion. Then you will start researching a new type of manufactured product - perhaps a boat, or the iPhone 20, or log cabins, and repeat the IMPS cycle.

This may seem normal/acceptable because it's what others are doing. But bear in mind what will not happen. You will not FIRE. You will not establish yourself in a community that shares deeper connections with who you actually are than fellow product ownership. You will coast through your career on a lower trajectory, spending work time reading on your phone about clutch plate warping or aftermarket headlights. You will grow as a mechanic, but not in other ways.

I've gone down this path with guitars, and eventually clawed my way out of that hole.  :P

FINate

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 09:36:52 AM »
Yep.
One ex went through this with guitars, amps, then bass guitars, then different amps for the bass guitars, then motorcycles, then sports cars, then dirt bikes, then antique muscle cars, plus all of the tools, equipment and accessories that went with everything. No purchase lasted a year before there was talk of upgrading somehow, either by trade in or expensive modification. A lot of it in the name of “childhood dreams”

Yikes. I can't even...  Other things I've seen: photography equipment, bikes (road and mountain), boats, fishing (esp. fly fishing), golf, wine, gardening, art, home decor.

One I was guilty of in my younger years: backpacking gear. The one good thing about this one is the self limiting nature, you can only carry so much. At one point I remember thinking, "do I really want to carry a backcountry espresso maker? Fuck it, I'm going to drink instant!" From that point on it's been a progression of learning to make due with less. Have gone slightly too far in the minimalism on occasion, the game now is finding and staying on that fine line for a given location and season.

For another ex it was hunting gear...despite never successfully killing anything.

But did they actually go out and use the gear even? Sometimes it takes a few years to get a feel for it, but you have to actually get out and do it!

GuitarStv

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2018, 09:41:07 AM »
do I really want to carry a backcountry espresso maker? Fuck it, I'm going to drink instant!

But espresso is the only thing separating us from the animals!

chasesfish

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Re: Buying a "fun" truck?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2018, 07:46:12 PM »
I've noticed that men in particular tend to become infatuated and obsessed with various manufactured goods, spend hundreds or thousands of hours researching and becoming connoisseurs, join communities of like-obsessed men, and become convinced that ownership of the thing is their only possible route to contentment. Examples:

-motorcycles
-sports cars or customizations
-antique cars
-jeeps and similar off-road toys
-ATVs
-guns
-gaming computers
-cell phones
-RVs
-drones /airplanes
-home audio/visual systems
-car audio

Antique diesel trucks is a new addition to this list as far as I know! But I guess most of these common examples make noise while concentrating power/force in some way, so it makes sense from a clinical perspective.

My point and advice is to look at the bigger picture. What are the consequences of infatuation with manufactured products syndrome (IMPS)? Are you buying your way into a social club of sorts? Do your collegues in the community of connoisseurs eventually graduate to more and more expensive trucks? Is there an unspoken competitive pressure not to have the shittiest diesel truck? Do they pity those inferior people in little gas powered vehicles with only x ft/lbs of torque? Will this hobby eventually detract from your career, relationship, health, sense of self, long-term dreams, etc? Will you labor an additional 3-4 years before FIRE because at one point you scratched an itch?

Here's a sneak preview of the future from someone who's been through a series of product infatuations:

You will trade up multiple times, spending more money each time and justifying the spending by pointing to improved product specifications as evidence of "investment" value. You will bore people at parties with your stories and factoids. You will insist you are being rational because (a) product specifications and (b) the product is your only path to happiness. You will allocate very expensive real estate to the hobby/passion.

Then your interest will suddenly drop. You'll sell the product that once infatuated you and feel a certain antsiness due to a lack of passion. Then you will start researching a new type of manufactured product - perhaps a boat, or the iPhone 20, or log cabins, and repeat the IMPS cycle.

This may seem normal/acceptable because it's what others are doing. But bear in mind what will not happen. You will not FIRE. You will not establish yourself in a community that shares deeper connections with who you actually are than fellow product ownership. You will coast through your career on a lower trajectory, spending work time reading on your phone about clutch plate warping or aftermarket headlights. You will grow as a mechanic, but not in other ways.

What a damn good post, you basically just described my dad.

Factoids...