Poll

What is your target income stream per year, PER INDIVIDUAL (divide by 2 if married, 3 if married with one child, etc...) at FIRE, based on today's currency values; see housing note below!

$0-10,000
7 (2.5%)
$10,001-30,000
111 (40.2%)
$30,001-50,000
83 (30.1%)
$50,001-70,000
48 (17.4%)
$70,001-100,000
23 (8.3%)
$100,001-150,000
3 (1.1%)
$150,001-300,000
0 (0%)
MORE MONEY THAN I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH
1 (0.4%)

Total Members Voted: 272

Author Topic: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?  (Read 7883 times)

Case

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Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« on: April 24, 2017, 07:25:08 AM »
Goal is to determine how much the average person feels is necessary for FIRE.  This should help people determine where they stand relative to others on this forum, in terms of how expensive their lives (at FIRE) are expected to be.

***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.

Certainly a complicated question with many variables (age, side hustle vs no, insurance, social security, etc...) so this is just meant to get a feel.

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

I'm sure this has been polled before, but I am either terrible at using the search function on this site, or the search function is terrible.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 07:42:57 AM by Case »

Mgmny

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2017, 10:23:39 AM »

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

Woah. i know only 15 people have responded to the pole, but 33% of those people have selected 70-100k. That means if you are a couple, you anticipate having/needing $4-5 million to retire (early!!)?? Why are you interested in ER if you want/need to amass $5 million?

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2017, 10:54:04 AM »

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

Woah. i know only 15 people have responded to the pole, but 33% of those people have selected 70-100k. That means if you are a couple, you anticipate having/needing $4-5 million to retire (early!!)?? Why are you interested in ER if you want/need to amass $5 million?

A lot of followers of the forum are yuppie tech programmers with enormous incomes. My guess is a lot of people want to retire early buy also want to have fancy toys (or some grand dream scheme), or want to work a certain length of time before retiring. 
At least that's how it is for me.  My target is in the $50-70k region (lower end most likely).  It is certainly more than I need, but there are some additional factors:

1.  I spent too long in school and want to work a certain amount of time to feel like I used my education enough.
2.  An extra year or two will give some cash to blow on unnecessary but expensive things, like getting a fancy device that might allow me to pursue a small business.
3.  Cover for medical crazy disaster scenarios.
4.  Working a little extra allows for saving extra money for charity.

Mgmny

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2017, 11:04:40 AM »

A lot of followers of the forum are yuppie tech programmers with enormous incomes.

I understand that completely, but that's where "retire early" comes in. You make $180k a year for 10 years, and call it quits. I don't know if making $180k for 25 years is the same as "retire early" when you could have just taken your 1.5 mil and retired in less than half the time.

dandarc

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2017, 11:06:59 AM »

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

Woah. i know only 15 people have responded to the pole, but 33% of those people have selected 70-100k. That means if you are a couple, you anticipate having/needing $4-5 million to retire (early!!)?? Why are you interested in ER if you want/need to amass $5 million?

A lot of followers of the forum are yuppie tech programmers with enormous incomes. My guess is a lot of people want to retire early buy also want to have fancy toys (or some grand dream scheme), or want to work a certain length of time before retiring. 
Or didn't read the instructions.

Alex321

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2017, 11:12:17 AM »

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

Woah. i know only 15 people have responded to the pole, but 33% of those people have selected 70-100k. That means if you are a couple, you anticipate having/needing $4-5 million to retire (early!!)?? Why are you interested in ER if you want/need to amass $5 million?

Why do you assume that's mutually exclusive?

We want to buy a small yacht on which we can travel the Atlantic coast, go across the Great Lakes, and down the inland rivers.

trashmanz

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2017, 11:16:43 AM »
No 100,001+ Option?

Alex321

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2017, 11:24:50 AM »
That was my thought. I would have selected it.

Mgmny

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 11:25:14 AM »
Why do you assume that's mutually exclusive?

We want to buy a small yacht on which we can travel the Atlantic coast, go across the Great Lakes, and down the inland rivers.

I don't assume they're mutually exclusive with the right income and savings rate, but I personally feel like there's a difference between FIRE and just plain rich. Nothing wrong with being rich (it's a great thing, I imagine!), but then the principles of FIRE probably apply to you less. I (wrongly?) assume that FIRE involves a certain threshold of frugality. Needing $200k for a couple to live on to retire early doesn't seem frugal to me? Again, not judging or saying anything is wrong with that, but it just shocked me.

Do you still need a house when you ahve the yacht? Presumably the yacht could be your housing expense and wouldn't require you to have $5 million in the bank to do this? One of my friend's parents did this actually (their's is more of a Trawler and less of a yacht though).

Alex321

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 11:30:36 AM »
Actually, something like a trawler is what we'd be looking for. I did say *small* yacht. :)

We'll keep the house. Or *some* house/condo. We don't want to spend years living in marinas.

It's unlikely we'd spend the $200k or so for living, but I don't want to just quit our jobs without it, kwim? And we want to be able to go out to dinner without worrying about whether it fits our budget.

Also, health insurance, of course. Figure $25k per year for that. And we have to get the kids through college, even state schools, and would rather do that while there's still nice income from jobs coming in.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 11:44:50 AM »
No 100,001+ Option?

Correct, done on purpose.  I'm sure people who want to make that much.  But I don't want that information in the spread.  Only 5 options allowed in the poll, and rather focus it on groups of closer to the norm.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2017, 11:47:31 AM »
Actually, something like a trawler is what we'd be looking for. I did say *small* yacht. :)

We'll keep the house. Or *some* house/condo. We don't want to spend years living in marinas.

It's unlikely we'd spend the $200k or so for living, but I don't want to just quit our jobs without it, kwim? And we want to be able to go out to dinner without worrying about whether it fits our budget.

Also, health insurance, of course. Figure $25k per year for that. And we have to get the kids through college, even state schools, and would rather do that while there's still nice income from jobs coming in.

Just want to point out that if you are saving money for children/dependents, than the spirit of the poll is to increase your denominator by 1x per dependent.

Al1961

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2017, 11:56:43 AM »
No 100,001+ Option?

Correct, done on purpose.  I'm sure people who want to make that much.  But I don't want that information in the spread.  Only 5 options allowed in the poll, and rather focus it on groups of closer to the norm.

So people's choices are only allowed/valid if they match your pre-concieved notion of normal?

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2017, 12:59:05 PM »
No 100,001+ Option?

Correct, done on purpose.  I'm sure people who want to make that much.  But I don't want that information in the spread.  Only 5 options allowed in the poll, and rather focus it on groups of closer to the norm.

So people's choices are only allowed/valid if they match your pre-concieved notion of normal?

Correct.
More specifically, only valid for the purposes of this poll.  Not using the term 'valid' to imply anything deeper, such as legitimacy or morality, which might be where you are taking this.

You are more than welcome to not participate, or ignore the results.  I'm sure the majority of people will be ok with a $100,000+ group not being present.  If I had more than 5 options allowed for the poll, a higher bracket might be enabled.

I'm trying to use this info to understand whether I'm going to be saving more or less than the average mustachian which might make me think "oh, I should be saving more", or "oh, I am going to be working extra years in order to make money which a bunch of other people can live without".  People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early.  Furthermore, those types of spending habits (in the absence of something like giving to charity, building something great, etc...) reflect the upper class.  Reminder:  this is a frugality forum.  There is nothing wrong with those sorts of spending habits, but it is perpendicular to mine and those of most people here.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 01:00:48 PM by Case »

WerKater

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2017, 01:12:32 PM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 01:30:19 PM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

If you own a $200,000 house, and your networth from which you derive passive income is $1,000,000, then combine them and now you have $1,200,000.  Using 4% rule, annual income goes from $40,000 to $48,000, assuming nothing else going on.

This is just a rough (and certainly not perfect) approximation to get the ball rolling.

Zikoris

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2017, 01:56:07 PM »
Oops, I included housing. Including housing, 12K each would cover us extremely comfortably. 8K each if you take out the housing.

boarder42

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2017, 02:18:59 PM »
i included housing too i'm actually in the 30-50k range our housing takes us over 70k with taxes and insurance. wish i could revote.

Bateaux

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2017, 02:27:46 PM »
I expect our income to be over 100k in FIRE.  Doesn't mean we'll spend it all.  Investments should be 2M by FIRE 2019.  Considering 7% return, that's 140K.  The 4% rule gives us 80k.  Probably won't need that much. 

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2017, 03:54:28 PM »
i included housing too i'm actually in the 30-50k range our housing takes us over 70k with taxes and insurance. wish i could revote.

If I could let you I would!  (I can only reset everyone at once).

I did the housing thing, because I wanted someway to factor in the value of one's house (and ideally all of their assets) into their expenses.  For example, maybe my annual expenses are 20k/year, but I have a $1M house...

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2017, 03:55:44 PM »
Goal is to determine how much the average person feels is necessary for FIRE.  This should help people determine where they stand relative to others on this forum, in terms of how expensive their lives (at FIRE) are expected to be.

***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.

Certainly a complicated question with many variables (age, side hustle vs no, insurance, social security, etc...) so this is just meant to get a feel.

I have set $100,000 as a cap.  I feel that above that amount we're really in the realm of excessive wealth of which is not necessary for discussion (unless you have some altruistic purpose such as charity).

I'm sure this has been polled before, but I am either terrible at using the search function on this site, or the search function is terrible.

I added a sixth option to partially appease the people asking about >100k.

Didn't see the option for a 6th option until I edited the poll.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2017, 03:58:44 PM »
I expect our income to be over 100k in FIRE.  Doesn't mean we'll spend it all.  Investments should be 2M by FIRE 2019.  Considering 7% return, that's 140K.  The 4% rule gives us 80k.  Probably won't need that much.

Very impressive!
Just remember: per person.  (if us = 80k per more than one person)

WerKater

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2017, 12:20:59 AM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

If you own a $200,000 house, and your networth from which you derive passive income is $1,000,000, then combine them and now you have $1,200,000.  Using 4% rule, annual income goes from $40,000 to $48,000, assuming nothing else going on.

This is just a rough (and certainly not perfect) approximation to get the ball rolling.

OK, so in other words: Housing (or an approximation thereof) should be included? So in all three of my examples my number should be 12000€/year?

boarder42

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2017, 06:53:37 AM »
i think you should reset the whole pole as you keep changing bits and pieces of it ... and the data isnt good anymore.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2017, 07:43:38 AM »
i think you should reset the whole pole as you keep changing bits and pieces of it ... and the data isnt good anymore.

I could but I'm not sure everyone would respond again.

All I did was add some higher income options.  If the instructions were followed (e.g. no one making over 100k chose the highest option at the time) then the data should be relatively unaffected.

If a large number of people have interest in resetting the pole, I can go post a new one.  If others have preferences on ways to tweak it please let me know (or feel free to post a poll of your own).

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2017, 07:46:47 AM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

If you own a $200,000 house, and your networth from which you derive passive income is $1,000,000, then combine them and now you have $1,200,000.  Using 4% rule, annual income goes from $40,000 to $48,000, assuming nothing else going on.

This is just a rough (and certainly not perfect) approximation to get the ball rolling.

OK, so in other words: Housing (or an approximation thereof) should be included? So in all three of my examples my number should be 12000€/year?

Yes, that is correct.  Just an approximation of your total income stream per year

WerKater

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2017, 09:08:53 AM »
OK, so in other words: Housing (or an approximation thereof) should be included? So in all three of my examples my number should be 12000€/year?

Yes, that is correct.  Just an approximation of your total income stream per year
Got it. That puts me in the 10 to 30k$ range (since these numbers happened to be my real ones).

MrDelane

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2017, 09:12:50 AM »
You can. Delete your vote, and then submit a new one.

How can you delete a vote?
I feel like a bit of an idiot, but I can't seem to figure that out.

boarder42

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2017, 09:33:05 AM »
i'm not sure the divide by members of household makes sense past a couple.  kids dont add to living expenses to the point that its as much as the couple costs.  kids in general should be a very minor blip on your expenses when you're FIREd and dont need daycare etc.  food / clothes / some activities, am i missing something.

Goldielocks

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2017, 09:46:07 AM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

I, too, found this housing exclusion comment very confusing.   Where would I live if I exclude housing?
So, I may have ticked off a box too high.  I also checked off for CDN dollars, not us$..
I found the bullets to be highly skewed upwards.  Only two bullets before you get to over US$100k per couple!  Who the heck wants to pay that much in taxes in retirement?

MrDelane

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2017, 09:48:07 AM »
My bad, the poll creator has to check off this box:

Quote
Allow users to change vote:

And they didn't. But they may be able to edit the poll and check it off.

Ah, gotcha.
Thanks, I thought I was going crazy there for a bit.

Bateaux

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2017, 09:54:02 AM »
I expect our income to be over 100k in FIRE.  Doesn't mean we'll spend it all.  Investments should be 2M by FIRE 2019.  Considering 7% return, that's 140K.  The 4% rule gives us 80k.  Probably won't need that much.

Very impressive!
Just remember: per person.  (if us = 80k per more than one person)

Missed the per person vote.  That would be 30 to 50k.  Just my wife and I
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:57:00 AM by Bateaux »

NeonPegasus

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2017, 09:59:41 AM »
Woah. i know only 15 people have responded to the pole, but 33% of those people have selected 70-100k. That means if you are a couple, you anticipate having/needing $4-5 million to retire (early!!)?? Why are you interested in ER if you want/need to amass $5 million?

That also means some of us didn't read the question properly. I voted for $60k before realizing I should have divided by 5.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2017, 10:01:36 AM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

I, too, found this housing exclusion comment very confusing.   Where would I live if I exclude housing?
So, I may have ticked off a box too high.  I also checked off for CDN dollars, not us$..
I found the bullets to be highly skewed upwards.  Only two bullets before you get to over US$100k per couple!  Who the heck wants to pay that much in taxes in retirement?

Sorry for the confusion.  THe intent is to equalize people's difference scenarios; for example living in a RV where you have very little asset tied up in housing (and thus more to invest) vs living in an expensvie SF townhome.  In all cases, people can choose where they live and thus choose costs of living; I'm just trying to cut to a somewhat straight comparison of how much people plan to spend on living expenses.  I thought about making this a 'target annual total expenses in FIRE' poll... I forget why I went the other way.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2017, 10:04:07 AM »
i'm not sure the divide by members of household makes sense past a couple.  kids dont add to living expenses to the point that its as much as the couple costs.  kids in general should be a very minor blip on your expenses when you're FIREd and dont need daycare etc.  food / clothes / some activities, am i missing something.

Well, this is just an approximation.

The kids part is meant to handle scenario where people have lots of extra funds to handle having children.  True, kids don't have to be expensive.  They will contribute some expenses though.  Getting into the details of exactly how much is probably beyond this simple poll.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2017, 10:05:23 AM »
My bad, the poll creator has to check off this box:

Quote
Allow users to change vote:

And they didn't. But they may be able to edit the poll and check it off.

I'm not seeing that option when I try to edit the poll.  I don't recall seeing it when I made the poll, but perhaps I am mistaken.

yachi

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2017, 10:09:33 AM »
Actually, something like a trawler is what we'd be looking for. I did say *small* yacht. :)

We'll keep the house. Or *some* house/condo. We don't want to spend years living in marinas.

It's unlikely we'd spend the $200k or so for living, but I don't want to just quit our jobs without it, kwim? And we want to be able to go out to dinner without worrying about whether it fits our budget.

Also, health insurance, of course. Figure $25k per year for that. And we have to get the kids through college, even state schools, and would rather do that while there's still nice income from jobs coming in.

Just want to point out that if you are saving money for children/dependents, than the spirit of the poll is to increase your denominator by 1x per dependent.

I agree with this.  I could support 5 of us on 40K-50K with some debt paid off, but I don't think 2 of us would be able to ER on 20K.

trashmanz

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2017, 12:19:52 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

trashmanz

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2017, 12:24:44 PM »
People keep using "pole" instead of Poll, is this a British English alternative or some sort of pervasive autocorrect phenomena

dandarc

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2017, 12:29:27 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   
I see nothing about limiting potential there at all.  What I see is "I'm going to stop working before I have $2.5 million per person invested".  Which is a pretty common idea here.

letired

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2017, 01:03:14 PM »
***Housing/rent should NOT be included in your annual expenses.  This means that if part of your networth is a house that you live in, then you should add that value to your invested income and adjust your income stream appropriately.
Could you clarify how you mean this?
- Let's say I spend 500€/month on housing (being a renter), and 500€/month on anything else. My annual spending according to your first sentence is 6000€.
- If I spend the same 500€ on the mortgage for a house I own (and again 500€ for anything else). The house might be worth 150k€ in this scenario, but that should not matter. My annual spending should be the same 6000€ as in the renting case (otherwise, we are comparing apples to oranges). So why should I add anything to anything or adjust anything?
- If I own the house outright (no mortgage) and I spend 500€/month, my annual spending is still 6000€. Again, no need for any more arithmetic.

I, too, found this housing exclusion comment very confusing.   Where would I live if I exclude housing?
So, I may have ticked off a box too high.  I also checked off for CDN dollars, not us$..
I found the bullets to be highly skewed upwards.  Only two bullets before you get to over US$100k per couple!  Who the heck wants to pay that much in taxes in retirement?

Sorry for the confusion.  The intent is to equalize people's difference scenarios; for example living in a RV where you have very little asset tied up in housing (and thus more to invest) vs living in an expensvie SF townhome.  In all cases, people can choose where they live and thus choose costs of living; I'm just trying to cut to a somewhat straight comparison of how much people plan to spend on living expenses.  I thought about making this a 'target annual total expenses in FIRE' poll... I forget why I went the other way.

+1 to excluding housing costs doesn't actually make any sense. If we are talking about 'living expenses', a roof over my head is LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I NEED. I get wanting to make a more straightforward comparison, but it just isn't straightforward.

And while it makes a difference for the poll, it doesn't really make a difference at the end of the day. Either you carry a mortgage into retirement or rent, and thus your annual expenses are higher, or you front the money and lower your annual expenses by purchasing. It's still a giant chunk of change, either way. It's just where are you holding it. That's why talking in terms of NW makes more sense to me. House equity or rental/mortgage payments in budget/cashflow needs, either way accounting for one of the most important living expenses is included in the number you are using to compare.

dandarc

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2017, 01:08:52 PM »
a roof over my head is LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I NEED
Because I can't pass up an opportunity for pedantry, I'd say "roof over head" is no higher than 2nd or third highest important thing.  Depends on if you separate water and food for this purpose or look at them together.

Case

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2017, 01:12:57 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

Depends how much you value money vs other stuff.

yachi

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2017, 01:22:58 PM »
i'm not sure the divide by members of household makes sense past a couple.  kids dont add to living expenses to the point that its as much as the couple costs.  kids in general should be a very minor blip on your expenses when you're FIREd and dont need daycare etc.  food / clothes / some activities, am i missing something.
medical insurance and care. Dental too. Maybe a car or larger car. College or school expenses for future. Clothing. Hobbies. Higher utilities due to use (or would that not count as its a "housing" expense like a bigger house because of needing more bedrooms than a couple wouldn't count for this poll).

Here's some data from the USDA:
"Based on the most recent data from the Consumer Expenditures Survey, in 2015, a family will spend approximately $12,980 annually per child in a middle-income ($59,200-$107,400), two-child, married-couple family."*

This statement implies that average spending varies from $16,620 per adult, and $12,980 (78%) per child to $40,720 per adult, and $12,980 per child (32%). However, they also note the following:

"Not surprising, the higher a family’s income the more was spent on a child, particularly for child care/education and miscellaneous expenses."*

I expect the $12,980 per child more closely coincides with the average middle income family, so $28,670 spending per adult and $12,980 spending per child (45%).


*https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2017/01/13/cost-raising-child

trashmanz

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2017, 09:45:10 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   
I see nothing about limiting potential there at all.  What I see is "I'm going to stop working before I have $2.5 million per person invested".  Which is a pretty common idea here.

You may not see it as limiting but it is.  If you put your target low it will take you longer than if you had stretched your goal further.  One can always quit the race earlier, but setting mediocre goals will always produce mediocre results.    If you have a low cap it is human nature to slow your pace to meet the low expectations.  Setting a high target you can always decide to tap out early, but a poorly chosen goal can keep you in the rat race a lot longer than need be.   
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:47:48 PM by trashmanz »

trashmanz

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2017, 09:50:20 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

Depends how much you value money vs other stuff.

Exactly the truth, if you value your life don't half ass it, don't set artificial constraints on your production, work your ass off to get out of the rat race asap.  Living life with constraint will keep you in the hamster wheel for longer than if you set higher goals. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:54:11 PM by trashmanz »

Zikoris

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2017, 11:59:58 PM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   
I see nothing about limiting potential there at all.  What I see is "I'm going to stop working before I have $2.5 million per person invested".  Which is a pretty common idea here.

You may not see it as limiting but it is.  If you put your target low it will take you longer than if you had stretched your goal further.  One can always quit the race earlier, but setting mediocre goals will always produce mediocre results.    If you have a low cap it is human nature to slow your pace to meet the low expectations.  Setting a high target you can always decide to tap out early, but a poorly chosen goal can keep you in the rat race a lot longer than need be.   

Counterpoint - if you're already within a single digit number of years to retirement, the investment required to substantially increase your income can actually be counterproductive and end up forcing you to work longer. I'm looking at a five year-max timeline myself, and investing any sort of time or money in schooling or other projects would almost certainly result in me needing to work longer, not shorter.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2017, 02:26:44 AM »
Silly poll, because we do not all live in the same country with the same expenses.

I voted $50,001-70,000, because I live in one of the most expensive countries in the world. This is for 2 adults without children.

By the way, I am not sure what is meant by "income target". This number is my expected maximum spending target.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 03:48:02 AM by Linda_Norway »

Khan

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2017, 03:03:38 AM »
I don't have a RE target, and I (hope) to job hob for fun from my late 30's till ever. Maybe when I grow up I'll pin down something... I'll also probably hit >5 mil unless the RE bug hits me hard at some point... but I can't imagine spending more than I earn or 100k, whichever is less at any point.

My FI/FU stash target starts at about 20k/year(though the position of FU comes in around 350k personally). After 500k(20k) I'm mentally in complete SWAMI territory.

The position of FU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

Mgmny

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Re: Poll: What is your FIRE income target?
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2017, 09:53:23 AM »
People making $100,000+ per person in passive income are in a different league.  I could only get to that point if I didn't retire early. 

Sad to see people limit their potential.  If you believe you are incapable of making much money then it easily becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   
I see nothing about limiting potential there at all.  What I see is "I'm going to stop working before I have $2.5 million per person invested".  Which is a pretty common idea here.

You may not see it as limiting but it is.  If you put your target low it will take you longer than if you had stretched your goal further.  One can always quit the race earlier, but setting mediocre goals will always produce mediocre results.    If you have a low cap it is human nature to slow your pace to meet the low expectations.  Setting a high target you can always decide to tap out early, but a poorly chosen goal can keep you in the rat race a lot longer than need be.   

+1 Dandarc

Trashmanz: I'm setting a realistic and attainable goal to retire early. It's aggressive, and I'm working towards it, but it's 1.625 million - which is still a lot of money - especially for a 20-something year old who is only worth like 125k right now. If i were to tell myself that I needed to be worth 5 million, I would need to adjust my expectations for ER. At our current rate, I could probably hit 5 million at 62 years old, but that's not ER anymore (and doesn't include having children and my wife quitting her job). For 1.625 million, I can hit that by my mid-early forties. This is realistic. I don't think i'm "selling myself short" by doing this. My wife and I are in the top 95th percentile income for our ages. I don't think we'd move to the 99th percentile if our "goal" was 5 million instead of 1.6. My goal is to get to 1.6 as fast as possible, and that doedsn't make me a slacker or lazy or "limit" my potential. It's realistic, attainable, and allows for an above-average lifestyle.