Poll

Are you in favor of student loan forgiveness?

Yes - capped at $10,000
61 (16.1%)
Yes - capped at $50,000
99 (26.1%)
No
219 (57.8%)

Total Members Voted: 375

Author Topic: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness  (Read 30158 times)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #350 on: February 24, 2021, 01:50:28 PM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #351 on: February 24, 2021, 02:03:00 PM »
I feel like the argument about 18 year old and mental maturity also plays into other things too, like the military, or the smoking age. If we are saying that 18 year olds aren't mature enough to sign for student loans, how can say they are old enough to make even bigger life changing decisions, like entering the military?

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with ya.

Smoking should be made illegal entirely or ramped up to age of 25. Military as well. Heck, lets let the old men who start the wars fight 'em instead. They can smoke as many cigarettes as desired as they do so.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #352 on: February 24, 2021, 02:04:21 PM »
I feel like the argument about 18 year old and mental maturity also plays into other things too, like the military, or the smoking age. If we are saying that 18 year olds aren't mature enough to sign for student loans, how can say they are old enough to make even bigger life changing decisions, like entering the military?

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with ya.

Smoking should be made illegal entirely or ramped up to age of 25. Military as well. Heck, lets let the old men who start the wars fight 'em instead.

Gonna be tricky to get marines then.  They don't allow recruitment after 28 years old.  :P

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #353 on: February 24, 2021, 02:12:05 PM »
I feel like the argument about 18 year old and mental maturity also plays into other things too, like the military, or the smoking age. If we are saying that 18 year olds aren't mature enough to sign for student loans, how can say they are old enough to make even bigger life changing decisions, like entering the military?

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with ya.

Smoking should be made illegal entirely or ramped up to age of 25. Military as well. Heck, lets let the old men who start the wars fight 'em instead.

Gonna be tricky to get marines then.  They don't allow recruitment after 28 years old.  :P

It'd be real hard to get 40 year olds to attack the machine gun bunker. Now 18 year olds, it'd be a different story. I was wonderfully invincible when I was 18 (alas).

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #354 on: February 24, 2021, 02:26:18 PM »
There are a lot of problems with higher education in America. Student loan forgiveness solves exactly zero of those problems. Additionally, it gives money to people who are more likely to have a higher income than people who didn't attend college.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #355 on: February 24, 2021, 02:40:34 PM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Reminds me of the Keanu Reeves quote in Parenthood,

"I had a man around. He used to wake me up every morning by flicking lit cigarettes at my head. He'd say, 'Hey, asshole, get up and make me breakfast.' You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, or drive a car. Hell, you need a license to catch a fish! But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."


Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #356 on: February 24, 2021, 02:56:05 PM »
I took out five figures in loans and began attending college at 17. I could not drive legally after 9pm until I turned 18. But, I was supposed to know better apparently?
It depends?

If you are an A student with an acceptance letter from a top tier school, no major impediments in your family life, raised in an environment where going to college is normal and you can draw on the experiences of your social circle, it is a completely rational choice.

If you are a C student with an acceptance letter from a questionable private school, difficult social dynamics, and very few or nobody to turn to for advice, yeah, that should be a pretty obvious no. This is what 60% of high school graduates decide.

If you are somewhere in between, well that's a very personal decision with high stakes, and you're not a complete idiot, so do a modicum of research? You know, what hundreds of thousands of college bound kids do every year, and a highly valued life skill in general.

Reading some of the posters here you'd think that millions and millions of people just woke up one fine morning during their senior year, decided without any prior information that they wanted to go college, rolled into the loan store and signed the first papers that were placed in front of them. It's infantilizing.

StarBright

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3270
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #357 on: February 24, 2021, 03:12:10 PM »

I was just asking for clarification about brain development and what that means in practical terms.  I've never considered that and am curious how that would impact policy as mentioned by @StarBright .  I didn't argue stopping education.  I was asking since college is "sold" to kids (and parents!) as an experience first - to explore delaying or other options.  I don't think it's 4 year university with loans up to your eyeballs or nothing when you're 18.  I certainly thought so at one time and still took the plunge.  I don't think the particular policy that is the subject of this thread is the best way to handle this issue.

I mean, I certainly wasn't prepared for the financial impact of going to university (nor were my parents) and just borrowed for the whole schmear.  I/we were ignorant at the time but even still knew this would have to be paid back "someday".  In fact this ignorance is what pushed me later on to be interested in personal finance as I didn't want my future adult self to be as clueless about retirement and other finance matters as I was when I entered college (or for any future kids to be in the dark as well).  My parents' brains were completely developed, perhaps mine wasn't but we were both bad with the time value of money and opportunity costs involved.  I'm still paying my loans back and am against any type of largescale student loan forgiveness (especially one coming from an exec order).  While this is just my opinion, I (and my parents) should've known better.  I am against it for multiple reasons but that doesn't mean I'm against other policies, ways of changing the system, expectations, teenage personal finance planning becoming the norm in public schools, counseling, parental guidance, allocation of public funds, how loans are distributed, interest rates, etc.  This is a serious issue and while I personally think I should've known better, there are myriad ways to address it rather than a one-time Band-Aid that will have to be repeatedly applied on the taxpayer's dime.  I just think the specific subject of this topic would be bad policy.  By the results of the poll, nearly 3/5 agree with that.

So as therethere just mentioned, driving is actually a place where public policy has changed based on neuroscience. 20 years ago I could drive anywhere I wanted with a car full of friends as soon as I was 16. I also had four friends in high school that died in car crashes. Turns out teenage brains don't assess risk like older brains. Now there are much greater restrictions on teenage drivers.

There are legal implications such as how to treat adolescents when it comes to things like drugs, alcohol, petty theft, and more serious crimes as well: juvenile crime policy in general. You can't drink till you're 21, but you can be charged as an adult in most states when you are 14. But the research can also impact laws regarding the statutory age at which an adolescent can reasonably make decisions about their own health and welfare -including sex. Confoundingly, age of consent laws are frequently based on mental but not chronological age. 

Beyond setting law, it can also be useful for crafting public messaging and incentives around risk taking activities.

As slappy mentioned, the military is obviously another area where neuroscience on brain development could be helpful. Beyond the question of whether or not 18 years should allowed/encouraged to enlist - how does combat affect a still developing brain? Should younger enlistees be prohibited from certain positions or missions? 

Heck - how does football affect a still developing brain?

I really wanted to highlight chemistk's excellent point because there have been a ton of people on this thread who are like "17 year olds know what they are getting into." - and they actually don't. Obviously there are outliers - but in general you can present risk and reward info to a 17 year old and a 25 year old and they will not process it the same way. Really simply put, in the teenager the part of the brain that yells "this is a risk!!" gets the volume turned way down, and the part that says "this could be great!" is louder.

I think there are all sorts of ways we could harness that developmental period in a way that is good for everyone; specifically I am thinking about something like a revamped Civilian Conservation Corps (which was originally for 18-25 year olds!) - but there would have to be political will for it. And there obviously isn't because we're talking about Biden using an EO to forgive student loan debt. There isn't a unified political will on anything regarding education in our country.

Gah- sorry to babble - but I find the whole topic really interesting!
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 07:55:16 PM by StarBright »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #358 on: February 24, 2021, 03:29:22 PM »
I took out five figures in loans and began attending college at 17. I could not drive legally after 9pm until I turned 18. But, I was supposed to know better apparently?
It depends?

If you are an A student with an acceptance letter from a top tier school, no major impediments in your family life, raised in an environment where going to college is normal and you can draw on the experiences of your social circle, it is a completely rational choice.

If you are a C student with an acceptance letter from a questionable private school, difficult social dynamics, and very few or nobody to turn to for advice, yeah, that should be a pretty obvious no. This is what 60% of high school graduates decide.

If you are somewhere in between, well that's a very personal decision with high stakes, and you're not a complete idiot, so do a modicum of research? You know, what hundreds of thousands of college bound kids do every year, and a highly valued life skill in general.

Reading some of the posters here you'd think that millions and millions of people just woke up one fine morning during their senior year, decided without any prior information that they wanted to go college, rolled into the loan store and signed the first papers that were placed in front of them. It's infantilizing.

At what age should a person be able to decide to have sex with someone else?  Or to drink?  To do weed?

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #359 on: February 24, 2021, 03:41:47 PM »
I took out five figures in loans and began attending college at 17. I could not drive legally after 9pm until I turned 18. But, I was supposed to know better apparently?
It depends?

If you are an A student with an acceptance letter from a top tier school, no major impediments in your family life, raised in an environment where going to college is normal and you can draw on the experiences of your social circle, it is a completely rational choice.

If you are a C student with an acceptance letter from a questionable private school, difficult social dynamics, and very few or nobody to turn to for advice, yeah, that should be a pretty obvious no. This is what 60% of high school graduates decide.

If you are somewhere in between, well that's a very personal decision with high stakes, and you're not a complete idiot, so do a modicum of research? You know, what hundreds of thousands of college bound kids do every year, and a highly valued life skill in general.

Reading some of the posters here you'd think that millions and millions of people just woke up one fine morning during their senior year, decided without any prior information that they wanted to go college, rolled into the loan store and signed the first papers that were placed in front of them. It's infantilizing.

At what age should a person be able to decide to have sex with someone else?  Or to drink?  To do weed?
15/18/18.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #360 on: February 24, 2021, 04:14:51 PM »
I took out five figures in loans and began attending college at 17. I could not drive legally after 9pm until I turned 18. But, I was supposed to know better apparently?
It depends?

If you are an A student with an acceptance letter from a top tier school, no major impediments in your family life, raised in an environment where going to college is normal and you can draw on the experiences of your social circle, it is a completely rational choice.

If you are a C student with an acceptance letter from a questionable private school, difficult social dynamics, and very few or nobody to turn to for advice, yeah, that should be a pretty obvious no. This is what 60% of high school graduates decide.

If you are somewhere in between, well that's a very personal decision with high stakes, and you're not a complete idiot, so do a modicum of research? You know, what hundreds of thousands of college bound kids do every year, and a highly valued life skill in general.

Reading some of the posters here you'd think that millions and millions of people just woke up one fine morning during their senior year, decided without any prior information that they wanted to go college, rolled into the loan store and signed the first papers that were placed in front of them. It's infantilizing.

At what age should a person be able to decide to have sex with someone else?  Or to drink?  To do weed?
15/18/18.

What are you basing those numbers on?

There's some evidence suggesting that using pot is more dangerous to pre-25 undeveloped minds:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3796318/

I personally, was totally unprepared to have sex at 15.  But that aside . . . do you think that a 15 year old having sex with a 30 year old (as would be perfectly legal and fine under the ages you propose) is likely to result in a good long term situation for the child involved?  Why 15, and not 14 or 13?


I'm always curious how people come up with these (seemingly) arbitrary numbers.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #361 on: February 24, 2021, 04:21:23 PM »

I was just asking for clarification about brain development and what that means in practical terms.  I've never considered that and am curious how that would impact policy as mentioned by @StarBright .  I didn't argue stopping education.  I was asking since college is "sold" to kids (and parents!) as an experience first - to explore delaying or other options.  I don't think it's 4 year university with loans up to your eyeballs or nothing when you're 18.  I certainly thought so at one time and still took the plunge.  I don't think the particular policy that is the subject of this thread is the best way to handle this issue.

I mean, I certainly wasn't prepared for the financial impact of going to university (nor were my parents) and just borrowed for the whole schmear.  I/we were ignorant at the time but even still knew this would have to be paid back "someday".  In fact this ignorance is what pushed me later on to be interested in personal finance as I didn't want my future adult self to be as clueless about retirement and other finance matters as I was when I entered college (or for any future kids to be in the dark as well).  My parents' brains were completely developed, perhaps mine wasn't but we were both bad with the time value of money and opportunity costs involved.  I'm still paying my loans back and am against any type of largescale student loan forgiveness (especially one coming from an exec order).  While this is just my opinion, I (and my parents) should've known better.  I am against it for multiple reasons but that doesn't mean I'm against other policies, ways of changing the system, expectations, teenage personal finance planning becoming the norm in public schools, counseling, parental guidance, allocation of public funds, how loans are distributed, interest rates, etc.  This is a serious issue and while I personally think I should've known better, there are myriad ways to address it rather than a one-time Band-Aid that will have to be repeatedly applied on the taxpayer's dime.  I just think the specific subject of this topic would be bad policy.  By the results of the poll, nearly 3/5 agree with that.

So as therethere just mentioned, driving is actually a place where public policy has changed based on neuroscience. 20 years ago I could drive anywhere I wanted with a car full of friends as soon as I was 16. I also had four friends in high school that died in car crashes. Turns out teenage brains don't assess risk like older brains. Now there are much greater restrictions on teenage drivers.

There are legal implications such as how to treat adolescents when it comes to things like drugs, alcohol, petty theft, and more serious crimes as well: juvenile crime policy in general. You can't drink till you're 21, but you can be charged as an adult in most states when you are 14. But the research can also impact laws regarding the statutory age at which an adolescent can reasonably make decisions about their own health and welfare -including sex. Confoundingly, age of consent laws are frequently based on mental but not chronological age. 

Beyond setting law, it can also be useful for crafting public messaging and incentives around risk taking activities.

As slappy mentioned, the military is obviously another area where neuroscience on brain development could be helpful. Beyond the question of whether or not 18 years should allowed/encouraged to enlist - how does combat affect a still developing brain? Should younger enlistees be prohibited from certain positions or missions? 

Heck - how does football affect a still developing brain?

I really wanted to highlight chemistk's excellent point because there have been a ton of people on this thread who are like "17 year olds know what they are getting into." - and they actually don't. Obviously there are outliers - but in general you can present risk and reward info to a 17 year old and a 25 year old and they will not process it the same way. Really simply put, in the teenager the part of the brain that yells "this is a risk!!" gets the volume turned way down, and the part that says "this could be great!" is louder.

I think there are all sorts of ways we could harness that developmental period in a way that is good for everyone; specifically I am thinking about something like a revamped Civilian Conservation Corps - but there would have to be political will for it. And there obviously isn't because we're talking about Biden using an EO to forgive student loan debt. There isn't a unified political will on anything regarding education in our country.

Gah- sorry to babble - but I find the whole topic really interesting!

I agree, this tangent is fascinating.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #362 on: February 24, 2021, 04:35:12 PM »
I took out five figures in loans and began attending college at 17. I could not drive legally after 9pm until I turned 18. But, I was supposed to know better apparently?
It depends?

If you are an A student with an acceptance letter from a top tier school, no major impediments in your family life, raised in an environment where going to college is normal and you can draw on the experiences of your social circle, it is a completely rational choice.

If you are a C student with an acceptance letter from a questionable private school, difficult social dynamics, and very few or nobody to turn to for advice, yeah, that should be a pretty obvious no. This is what 60% of high school graduates decide.

If you are somewhere in between, well that's a very personal decision with high stakes, and you're not a complete idiot, so do a modicum of research? You know, what hundreds of thousands of college bound kids do every year, and a highly valued life skill in general.

Reading some of the posters here you'd think that millions and millions of people just woke up one fine morning during their senior year, decided without any prior information that they wanted to go college, rolled into the loan store and signed the first papers that were placed in front of them. It's infantilizing.

At what age should a person be able to decide to have sex with someone else?  Or to drink?  To do weed?
15/18/18.

What are you basing those numbers on?

There's some evidence suggesting that using pot is more dangerous to pre-25 undeveloped minds:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3796318/

I personally, was totally unprepared to have sex at 15.  But that aside . . . do you think that a 15 year old having sex with a 30 year old (as would be perfectly legal and fine under the ages you propose) is likely to result in a good long term situation for the child involved?  Why 15, and not 14 or 13?


I'm always curious how people come up with these (seemingly) arbitrary numbers.
No, I don't think that.

The goal of these numbers isn't to provide an ideal target age or cover every edge case, it's to provide a floor. A lot of countries have the age of consent around 15 and the drinking age at 18 and the sky isn't falling, because they have other laws to deal with the edge cases.

I don't see why this is relevant to the problem of college debt.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #363 on: February 24, 2021, 04:39:07 PM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #364 on: February 24, 2021, 07:58:59 PM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

These are terrible examples.

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #365 on: February 24, 2021, 08:35:42 PM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

I did get refunded on my bad shares I purchased at 19.  It was like 7 years later via class action lawsuit.....

Also I'm not sure international holiday is a bad choice.  I kinda wish I had that memory...

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #366 on: February 25, 2021, 06:30:57 AM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

These are terrible examples.

Not only that, but as can be seen by the raw poll results, the bipartisan debate we've had here has resulted in probably the best 'compromise' a society of different thinkers would be able to come up with - roughly 60% opposed/40% in favor of SLF. Granted, as has been mentioned before, this forum tends to be fiscally conservative so among a random population, it's more likely to be 50/50.

But even then, nobody is arguing that folks should be absolved of every past mistake. SLF, even at $10k, is a shaky thing anyway but it's obviously A) a means to fulfill campaign promises and B) another attempt to stimulate the economy, much much more so than to actually provide relief to people struggling with student loans.

The constantly missed (or overlooked?) point is the exact tangent this discussion has veered into - the whole college machine is fucked, but so is so much else. This is just one shitty flavor in a freezer case of disgusting societal aberrations.

SLF won't solve a damn thing, and everyone who currently owes money for student loans isn't going to be genuinely helped by it - the lost returns on the interest and principal that are paid to keep the lights on in the D1 NCAA college stadiums far exceed even the $50k mark, and nobody is getting that back, ever.

All that being said, I'm still in favor of $10k (and better if it's targeted rather than helicoptered).

maisymouser

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Age: 32
  • Location: NC
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #367 on: February 25, 2021, 06:56:26 AM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

These are terrible examples.

Not only that, but as can be seen by the raw poll results, the bipartisan debate we've had here has resulted in probably the best 'compromise' a society of different thinkers would be able to come up with - roughly 60% opposed/40% in favor of SLF. Granted, as has been mentioned before, this forum tends to be fiscally conservative so among a random population, it's more likely to be 50/50.

But even then, nobody is arguing that folks should be absolved of every past mistake. SLF, even at $10k, is a shaky thing anyway but it's obviously A) a means to fulfill campaign promises and B) another attempt to stimulate the economy, much much more so than to actually provide relief to people struggling with student loans.

The constantly missed (or overlooked?) point is the exact tangent this discussion has veered into - the whole college machine is fucked, but so is so much else. This is just one shitty flavor in a freezer case of disgusting societal aberrations.

SLF won't solve a damn thing, and everyone who currently owes money for student loans isn't going to be genuinely helped by it - the lost returns on the interest and principal that are paid to keep the lights on in the D1 NCAA college stadiums far exceed even the $50k mark, and nobody is getting that back, ever.

All that being said, I'm still in favor of $10k (and better if it's targeted rather than helicoptered).

This whole post was wonderful and although I don't agree with the end point, I think we can all agree that we are all so dang tired of poop popsicle policies.

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1667
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #368 on: February 25, 2021, 07:17:05 AM »
In a timely post, a friend of mine just posted that her daughter has gotten her first college acceptance letter.  Her dream school.  A decent private college, on par with say UIC or Loyola Chicago, but with an abysmal graduation rate of 66%.  Even after nearly $20k a year in scholarships she'll still probably have to take out $25k a year in loans for an international studies degree.  And, publicly, everyone is cheering her on.  When you're 17 years old and everyone is telling you "Congratulations" then I can understand why you might not think this is such a bad thing. 

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #369 on: February 25, 2021, 07:35:50 AM »
In a timely post, a friend of mine just posted that her daughter has gotten her first college acceptance letter.  Her dream school.  A decent private college, on par with say UIC or Loyola Chicago, but with an abysmal graduation rate of 66%.  Even after nearly $20k a year in scholarships she'll still probably have to take out $25k a year in loans for an international studies degree.  And, publicly, everyone is cheering her on.  When you're 17 years old and everyone is telling you "Congratulations" then I can understand why you might not think this is such a bad thing.

I don't think the majority of people here are arguing that it's not a problem.

My big issue is that a payout doesn't really solve anything.

10k isn't a life changing amount of money.  If 10k is crushing you, that's a little silly.

Additionally if you are 250k deep and can't pass your bar exam, 10k also doesn't really help you.

Additionally - even without government action, this problem *should* sort itself out once those saddled with student loans advise their children on what to do.   I doubt they will advocate expensive university and large loans.

To be clear I don't think waiting is the best option, I just wanted to point out that it should eventually sort itself out by the next generation......

« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 07:41:37 AM by Kroaler »

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #370 on: February 25, 2021, 07:46:22 AM »
I just want my refund for the bad shares I purchased as a 19 year old.

I also want a refund for the international holiday I got sucked into taking as a 20 year old. Man that tour was way overpriced.

If we're forgiving young brains for mistakes let's just do it properly and forgive everyone's mistakes. Rather than making an arbitrary selection. Right? People who began smoking at 18, had a kid at 20, or went bankrupt at 21 I'm sure will be interested in getting forgiveness too.

These are terrible examples.

Not only that, but as can be seen by the raw poll results, the bipartisan debate we've had here has resulted in probably the best 'compromise' a society of different thinkers would be able to come up with - roughly 60% opposed/40% in favor of SLF. Granted, as has been mentioned before, this forum tends to be fiscally conservative so among a random population, it's more likely to be 50/50.

But even then, nobody is arguing that folks should be absolved of every past mistake. SLF, even at $10k, is a shaky thing anyway but it's obviously A) a means to fulfill campaign promises and B) another attempt to stimulate the economy, much much more so than to actually provide relief to people struggling with student loans.

The constantly missed (or overlooked?) point is the exact tangent this discussion has veered into - the whole college machine is fucked, but so is so much else. This is just one shitty flavor in a freezer case of disgusting societal aberrations.

SLF won't solve a damn thing, and everyone who currently owes money for student loans isn't going to be genuinely helped by it - the lost returns on the interest and principal that are paid to keep the lights on in the D1 NCAA college stadiums far exceed even the $50k mark, and nobody is getting that back, ever.

All that being said, I'm still in favor of $10k (and better if it's targeted rather than helicoptered).

This whole post was wonderful and although I don't agree with the end point, I think we can all agree that we are all so dang tired of poop popsicle policies.

So many poop popsicles.

I'll clarify - I'm for the $10k for reasons that aren't face value. I do earnestly believe that the money solves nothing.

But right now, there's a generation of people who are hungry for something - some acknowledgement that the sunsetting generation (boomers mostly, apologies to anyone in this thread who identifies as such) isn't just going to ignore them again.

I like to think of the SLF as a political olive branch. "Hey, we really screwed you guys over with the rhetoric you were fed these last 30 years, and with the fact that there have been endless empty promises - take this cash as a sign that we do want to recognize that your generation(s) has been feed shitsicles.

Few on this forum are chomping at the bit for that sort of political grandstanding, but I think the Democrats would be remiss to not offer such an olive branch, because the Bernies/Yangs/AOCs are coming and just like the Trump faction of the conservatives, I do really believe there will come a time when that faction of the Democrats will declare that enough is enough.

It's a slippery slope though, and to Bloop's (and others') points - when you give a mouse a $10k 'reparation' cookie.....


Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1667
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #371 on: February 25, 2021, 08:01:03 AM »
In a timely post, a friend of mine just posted that her daughter has gotten her first college acceptance letter.  Her dream school.  A decent private college, on par with say UIC or Loyola Chicago, but with an abysmal graduation rate of 66%.  Even after nearly $20k a year in scholarships she'll still probably have to take out $25k a year in loans for an international studies degree.  And, publicly, everyone is cheering her on.  When you're 17 years old and everyone is telling you "Congratulations" then I can understand why you might not think this is such a bad thing.

I don't think the majority of people here are arguing that it's not a problem.

My big issue is that a payout doesn't really solve anything.

10k isn't a life changing amount of money.  If 10k is crushing you, that's a little silly.

Additionally if you are 250k deep and can't pass your bar exam, 10k also doesn't really help you.

Additionally - even without government action, this problem *should* sort itself out once those saddled with student loans advise their children on what to do.   I doubt they will advocate expensive university and large loans.

To be clear I don't think waiting is the best option, I just wanted to point out that it should eventually sort itself out by the next generation......

I'm not sure that it will.  I'm among the older millennials (one of the ones to graduate college before the Great Shitshow of 2008).  The attitude I see prevalent among most of my peers is either "I had to take out loans so my kids should too" or "I've been stretched too thin paying my loans to save anything for my kids to go to college."  Neither is a great option.  Maybe the younger millennials are encouraging their kids to pursue more sustainable options.  I hope so.  I still believe that the only thing that's going to sort this out is to make student loan availability less like a firehose and more like a water fountain. 

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #372 on: February 25, 2021, 09:08:29 AM »
If anyone in government were actually trying to address the student loan problem rather than simply use it to motivate votes, the first two actions would be:

- Stop talking about "debt forgiveness" and start talking about "writing off bad debt."  Someone who went to the branch campus of podunk state for a semester before dropping out and has never made a single payment isn't going to repay that $7400 loan.  Just write it off and stop throwing good money after bad by pursuing it, not because it's cruel, but because it's a bad use of public resources.  The Sec. of Ed's discretionary powers under the Higher Education Act of 1965 were included for exactly this purpose.

- Lower the darn interest rates on all DoE loans, especially the grad loans that are driving the debt bubble, and provide a meaningful federal refinancing option for existing debt.  Direct Grad loans are currently at 4.3% fixed, while undergrad loans are at 2.75%.  Meanwhile, there are billions of dollars in federal loans outstanding at 5-7% with no refinancing option available that doesn't require forfeiting all existing federal loan programs and protections like the current forbearance, IDR, and PSLF.  Right now the typical student loan borrower is effectively stuck in debt that's multiple points higher than the average mortgage, and we've never (ever!) seen that in a sustained manner in American history.  Current borrowers are getting hosed on interest rates, while their parents and grandparents often enjoyed rates below inflation, a boring but important intergenerational inequality.

If we're serious about addressing existing student debt, we'll write off the stuff that's never getting repaid, and we'll reduce the rates on remaining debt that's fixed way higher than the current rate environment.

The moralizing and pandering and virtue signaling around student debt is not a good faith effort to actually solve the problem.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 09:17:02 AM by caleb »

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6659
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #373 on: February 25, 2021, 11:13:22 AM »

Additionally - even without government action, this problem *should* sort itself out once those saddled with student loans advise their children on what to do.   I doubt they will advocate expensive university and large loans.

To be clear I don't think waiting is the best option, I just wanted to point out that it should eventually sort itself out by the next generation......

The problem sorting itself out in the next generation is my #1 concern. What happens to the whole society when the prevailing wisdom passed on to young people is "Don't go to college, because those people never escape the debt."?

What would be the point of doing well in high school, or learning anything other than a trade?
What happens to a society when the level of education drops by 4 years in just one generation?
What happens when the entire next generation tries to crowd into jobs that don't require a degree? Won't wages go down?
How pissed will people be when the vast majority of the population is stuck earning just above minimum wage while the educated elites take an even large slice of society's production?
How does one find a doctor, a CPA, a lawyer, or an engineer in such a world? Do we start accepting certificates in lieu of degrees?
What happens to culture when 1% of the population has ever read Shakespeare, knows how many Senators there are, or is aware of the Trail of Tears?
What happens to the economy when we have the educational demographics of Mexico?

abbeydabbey

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #374 on: February 25, 2021, 11:45:03 AM »
I am in favor of student loan forgiveness as long as it is accompanied by student loan reform.

Student loans don't have the consumer protections that every other kind of loan, including other government loans, have. These protections need to be returned to student loans before we forgive them, or we are just grabbing a mop before we turn the bathwater off.

And honestly, deferment options hurt rather than help many students, and current student loan forgiveness programs look a lot like indentured servitude...

There are plenty of problems with the program, and the amount people owe is only a result of those problems. Forgiveness needs to be accompanied by real problem solving.

The Student Loan Scam by Alan Michaele Collinge is a bit outdated, but it shows plenty of problems within the whole program that really need to be addressed. Congress is surprisingly okay with turning a blind eye to these issues, when they are willing to support forgiveness. Could it be a bit of virtue signaling?

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1635
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #375 on: February 25, 2021, 12:54:49 PM »

Additionally - even without government action, this problem *should* sort itself out once those saddled with student loans advise their children on what to do.   I doubt they will advocate expensive university and large loans.

To be clear I don't think waiting is the best option, I just wanted to point out that it should eventually sort itself out by the next generation......

The problem sorting itself out in the next generation is my #1 concern. What happens to the whole society when the prevailing wisdom passed on to young people is "Don't go to college, because those people never escape the debt."?
- The prevailing wisdom needs to shift to "don't go to college for a good time, go to college to learn something that will make you more productive"

What would be the point of doing well in high school, or learning anything other than a trade?
- A world not quite so dependent on a college degree wouldn't be all bad. 

What happens to a society when the level of education drops by 4 years in just one generation?
- No one is suggesting no one goes to college.

What happens when the entire next generation tries to crowd into jobs that don't require a degree? Won't wages go down?
- Like they've gone down for people with meaningless college degrees?
 
How pissed will people be when the vast majority of the population is stuck earning just above minimum wage while the educated elites take an even large slice of society's production?
- Probably less pissed than they are about wasting 4-6 six years to get a degree the elites told them they had to have to do a job they could have done without it.

How does one find a doctor, a CPA, a lawyer, or an engineer in such a world? Do we start accepting certificates in lieu of degrees?
- Those are all degrees where people can pay back their student loans without a problem.

What happens to culture when 1% of the population has ever read Shakespeare, knows how many Senators there are, or is aware of the Trail of Tears?
- If you haven't learned all of those things before finishing high school you have no business going to college.

What happens to the economy when we have the educational demographics of Mexico?
- Just looking at the average greatly distorts reality. It's true that the average college grad makes more than the average person without a degree, but that ignores how much the engineers, cpas, and lawyers are distorting the average. There are degrees available today that actually lower lifetime earnings. I have a friend who borrowed 100k to get a PHD in Shakespearian literature. In a rational world that wouldn't be possible.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:32:03 AM by Alternatepriorities »

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #376 on: February 26, 2021, 06:59:39 AM »
I just figured out what the above poster did.  They added comments in the quotes.   They shoulda been bolded or marked somehow.

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #377 on: February 26, 2021, 07:04:51 AM »
Usually simple solutions are weak thinking but I think this really is a simple problem to solve.

Make student loans bankruptable and comparable to all other loans.

The free market will adjust appropriately the amounts that can be borrowed based on risk.

Requesting 25k and pursuing STEM degree with a 1200 sat and 4.0 - yes we'll loan on that risk.

Requesting 50k for party U into a degree with low average pay and you are a low grade student? - maybe we don't take that risk.

I'm sure there will be unintended consequences, but look at the current set of unintended consequences.

The price and need of higher education would quickly sort itself out.


therethere

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #378 on: February 26, 2021, 07:27:26 AM »
Usually simple solutions are weak thinking but I think this really is a simple problem to solve.

Make student loans bankruptable and comparable to all other loans.

The free market will adjust appropriately the amounts that can be borrowed based on risk.

Requesting 25k and pursuing STEM degree with a 1200 sat and 4.0 - yes we'll loan on that risk.

Requesting 50k for party U into a degree with low average pay and you are a low grade student? - maybe we don't take that risk.

I'm sure there will be unintended consequences, but look at the current set of unintended consequences.

The price and need of higher education would quickly sort itself out.
Doing something like this would pile up discrimination lawsuits real quick.

roomtempmayo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #379 on: February 26, 2021, 08:03:30 AM »
Usually simple solutions are weak thinking but I think this really is a simple problem to solve.

Make student loans bankruptable and comparable to all other loans.

The free market will adjust appropriately the amounts that can be borrowed based on risk.

Requesting 25k and pursuing STEM degree with a 1200 sat and 4.0 - yes we'll loan on that risk.

Requesting 50k for party U into a degree with low average pay and you are a low grade student? - maybe we don't take that risk.

I'm sure there will be unintended consequences, but look at the current set of unintended consequences.

The price and need of higher education would quickly sort itself out.
Doing something like this would pile up discrimination lawsuits real quick.

It would work to reduce costs, but it would functionally abdicate the  task of trying to provide opportunity across lines of race, class, and to some extent, gender.

Running a college or university cheaply isn't a mystery.  A pre-1975 model of admitting students from middle and upper class families, who are predominantly white, into a sink-or-swim environment with little or no student support and a graduation rate of <50% is indeed cheap to run. 

But is a university that is really just sifting the student body for those who came in best prepared (i.e. went to the best schools, which tend to track heavily with parental income) and happen to not run into a major issue along the way (hello, no counseling services or Title IX office) the sort of place that people want to send their kids?  Is it the sort of higher ed we want as a society?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #380 on: February 26, 2021, 08:36:55 AM »

Additionally - even without government action, this problem *should* sort itself out once those saddled with student loans advise their children on what to do.   I doubt they will advocate expensive university and large loans.

To be clear I don't think waiting is the best option, I just wanted to point out that it should eventually sort itself out by the next generation......

The problem sorting itself out in the next generation is my #1 concern. What happens to the whole society when the prevailing wisdom passed on to young people is "Don't go to college, because those people never escape the debt."?

What would be the point of doing well in high school, or learning anything other than a trade?
What happens to a society when the level of education drops by 4 years in just one generation?
What happens when the entire next generation tries to crowd into jobs that don't require a degree? Won't wages go down?
How pissed will people be when the vast majority of the population is stuck earning just above minimum wage while the educated elites take an even large slice of society's production?
How does one find a doctor, a CPA, a lawyer, or an engineer in such a world? Do we start accepting certificates in lieu of degrees?
What happens to culture when 1% of the population has ever read Shakespeare, knows how many Senators there are, or is aware of the Trail of Tears?
What happens to the economy when we have the educational demographics of Mexico?

You can read Shakespeare without going to university. I think we read it in 7th grade English.

Talented students and/or bright poor students get scholarships to uni anyway.

The rest can pay for it and play the market game.

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #381 on: February 26, 2021, 08:45:48 AM »
Usually simple solutions are weak thinking but I think this really is a simple problem to solve.

Make student loans bankruptable and comparable to all other loans.

The free market will adjust appropriately the amounts that can be borrowed based on risk.

Requesting 25k and pursuing STEM degree with a 1200 sat and 4.0 - yes we'll loan on that risk.

Requesting 50k for party U into a degree with low average pay and you are a low grade student? - maybe we don't take that risk.

I'm sure there will be unintended consequences, but look at the current set of unintended consequences.

The price and need of higher education would quickly sort itself out.

But this really isn't a simple problem to 'solve' (and 'solved' it never will be).

I agree that putting the risk back on the universities is a huge step in the right direction, but as was already pointed out, it would just seriously cull the types of applicants that a university is going to accept. Worse, an unintended consequence of just making loans dischargeable would drive high schools to just spend more time prepping students for the ACT/SAT, and not really creating a balanced and divers curriculum.

But obviously there would be huge opportunities for the higher ed machine to keep the status quo. Why even worry about kids who are 'high risk' because they come from lower quality school districts with families who may not be able to pay.

Universities, just like anyone or anything, would look for any way they possibly could to keep what they've already got. The other solution that would need to accompany your idea would be to cull the degree programs, tenure tracks, athletic programs, and extracurriculars that all add to the cost of higher ed. But what college or university is going to do that? Nah, they'd rather keep the $30k/year sticker to maintain all the extras.


ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6659
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #382 on: February 26, 2021, 09:40:45 AM »
But this really isn't a simple problem to 'solve' (and 'solved' it never will be).

True. If it wasn't possible for literally anyone to borrow a five or six-figure sum and go to college, then the problem of millions of people being stifled by student loan debt would simply be replaced by the problem of there being artificial barriers to college and a lack of financial assistance. We "solved" the problem of college elitism/classism only to "create" the problem of out-of-control costs. This was unexpected decades ago, because why would students buy unmarketable degrees en masse, and why would colleges escalate their cost structures to the moon while selling unmarketable degrees en masse?

Quote
But obviously there would be huge opportunities for the higher ed machine to keep the status quo. Why even worry about kids who are 'high risk' because they come from lower quality school districts with families who may not be able to pay.

Universities, just like anyone or anything, would look for any way they possibly could to keep what they've already got. The other solution that would need to accompany your idea would be to cull the degree programs, tenure tracks, athletic programs, and extracurriculars that all add to the cost of higher ed. But what college or university is going to do that? Nah, they'd rather keep the $30k/year sticker to maintain all the extras.

The reason universities don't cut the athletics, ancillary programs, student union building, and layers upon layers of administration is because a larger organization justifies higher salaries for executives. I.e. A university administrator can command a higher salary if 1,000 people report to them than if only 100 people report to them. Similarly, a director earns more if 100 people report to them rather than 25.

The best way to advance one's university administration career is to support the addition of every new program or job role that can be thought of. Subsidized loans mean the supply/demand curve is price-insensitive, and higher tuition for out-of-state students creates a disincentive to shop around, so students bear the cost of administrative bloat and high managerial salaries.

To resolve both the accessibility problem and the bureaucratic bloat problem, we'd have to increase demand elasticity by creating incentives for students to go to more efficient colleges (such as loan amounts capped at a lower rate per year). Then, as the most bloated universities add more and more cost, they start to lose revenue, and the system self-limits.

The problem of non-marketable degrees may be resolved when the inter-generational advice shifts from "go to college!" to "major in something where you can get a good-paying job". Gen X and millennials will probably do this with their kids, and the result will be decimation of humanities departments at expensive colleges. However, we could also require universities to provide their students information about the unemployment rate and incomes of graduates in each major before they declare. Even in the information age, this information is hard to find and often does not factor into the decision making process of an 18 year old philosophy, history, PE, or music major.

crimp

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #383 on: February 26, 2021, 10:23:41 AM »
However, we could also require universities to provide their students information about the unemployment rate and incomes of graduates in each major before they declare. Even in the information age, this information is hard to find and often does not factor into the decision making process of an 18 year old philosophy, history, PE, or music major.

FWIW, part of the problem here is FERPA privacy restrictions. This idea was explicitly proposed in a bill called "Know Before You Go" by Ron Wyden of Oregon in both 2015 and 2019. It paired this information gathering with the use of privacy-preserving techniques from cryptography to gather broad statistics without revealing sensitive information about particular students.

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1635
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #384 on: February 26, 2021, 10:32:35 AM »
I just figured out what the above poster did.  They added comments in the quotes.   They shoulda been bolded or marked somehow.

Sorry, I fixed it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:37:15 AM by Alternatepriorities »

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1635
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #385 on: February 26, 2021, 10:36:56 AM »
Usually simple solutions are weak thinking but I think this really is a simple problem to solve.

Make student loans bankruptable and comparable to all other loans.

The free market will adjust appropriately the amounts that can be borrowed based on risk.

Requesting 25k and pursuing STEM degree with a 1200 sat and 4.0 - yes we'll loan on that risk.

Requesting 50k for party U into a degree with low average pay and you are a low grade student? - maybe we don't take that risk.

I'm sure there will be unintended consequences, but look at the current set of unintended consequences.

The price and need of higher education would quickly sort itself out.

I suspect this is the answer. College prices didn't start rising faster than inflation until after the government started guaranteeing loans. There is something ironic and frustrating about our government creating a problem so big that only the government can fix it.

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #386 on: February 26, 2021, 10:43:37 AM »
To the people above stating that risk adjusted loans would further class / race issues.

What about the current system?

Want to borrow more house than you can realistically pay for?  DENIED!
Want to borrow money for a ferrarri you cant ever pay for? DENIED!


Why not?:
Want to borrow money for a degree / school that you can never repay and have a high chance of bankrupting on - DENIED

Maybe when someone gets denied out of a useless degree at the most expensive university, they will set their sights on something with a better value proposition.  Also the schools would be forced to focus more on demand decent ROI degrees to stay in business.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:47:59 AM by Kroaler »

HeadedWest2029

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #387 on: February 26, 2021, 10:47:57 AM »
if you make it bankruptable, why would anyone NOT choose that option at 22 y/o and no financial assets?  Wouldn't the interest rates be absurd?

KarefulKactus15

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Location: Southeast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #388 on: February 26, 2021, 10:52:16 AM »
if you make it bankruptable, why would anyone NOT choose that option at 22 y/o and no financial assets?  Wouldn't the interest rates be absurd?

 
Well under our new system people would be forced to only pursue in demand degrees and be fiscally responsible doing it. 

So lets assume our theoretical person has 37k of student loans (current inflated average) and a job as an engineer starting at 62k yearly.

Is it worth the credit ding to bankrupt and have the 7 years associated with that?   Additionally if this strategy was a concern, the lenders would probably cap loans at 25k. (Whatever point it isnt worth it for someone to pursue this strategy)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:53:55 AM by Kroaler »

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1635
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #389 on: February 26, 2021, 10:53:28 AM »
But this really isn't a simple problem to 'solve' (and 'solved' it never will be).

I agree that putting the risk back on the universities is a huge step in the right direction, but as was already pointed out, it would just seriously cull the types of applicants that a university is going to accept. Worse, an unintended consequence of just making loans dischargeable would drive high schools to just spend more time prepping students for the ACT/SAT, and not really creating a balanced and divers curriculum.

But obviously there would be huge opportunities for the higher ed machine to keep the status quo. Why even worry about kids who are 'high risk' because they come from lower quality school districts with families who may not be able to pay.

Universities, just like anyone or anything, would look for any way they possibly could to keep what they've already got. The other solution that would need to accompany your idea would be to cull the degree programs, tenure tracks, athletic programs, and extracurriculars that all add to the cost of higher ed. But what college or university is going to do that? Nah, they'd rather keep the $30k/year sticker to maintain all the extras.

I totally agree that it's not a simple problem with a simple answer. I'm also sure universities would rather keep the sticker price the same, but if tax payers stop footing the risk for a $120k degree in tourism they'd have to change their business model or perish. The university I attended managed to provide a high quality undergraduate program for less than $12k a year. A few years after I graduated they were actively looking for ways to spend more money per student to get there cost inline with the other state schools so they could get a larger share of the states lottery scholarship money! That's the kind of perverse thinking the current system is creating and as I was attending from out of state, it would have totally screwed me.

Sid Hoffman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: Southwest USA
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #390 on: February 26, 2021, 09:35:15 PM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Don't say "nobody", as I'd be fine with raising the minimum age for all kinds of things to 25 as well as having separate rules for bankruptcy of debt accrued before age 25. At first people might say "But then lenders won't want to lend to people under 25!" Yes. That is accurate. That's what I consider working as intended.

JGS1980

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 907
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #391 on: February 26, 2021, 10:03:12 PM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Don't say "nobody", as I'd be fine with raising the minimum age for all kinds of things to 25 as well as having separate rules for bankruptcy of debt accrued before age 25. At first people might say "But then lenders won't want to lend to people under 25!" Yes. That is accurate. That's what I consider working as intended.

+1 million

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6659
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #392 on: March 01, 2021, 09:06:36 AM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Don't say "nobody", as I'd be fine with raising the minimum age for all kinds of things to 25 as well as having separate rules for bankruptcy of debt accrued before age 25. At first people might say "But then lenders won't want to lend to people under 25!" Yes. That is accurate. That's what I consider working as intended.

+1 million

IDK, back in my grandfather’s generation, it was not uncommon for a male to graduate high school and start a business at 18. Also wasn’t uncommon to have a couple of kids before 20. What changed and extended adolescence to the point where now we’re not sure 25 year olds can understand the implications of debt? These hyper-functional late teenagers of 100 years ago were malnourished and undereducated too.

Roland of Gilead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #393 on: March 01, 2021, 09:11:23 AM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Don't say "nobody", as I'd be fine with raising the minimum age for all kinds of things to 25 as well as having separate rules for bankruptcy of debt accrued before age 25. At first people might say "But then lenders won't want to lend to people under 25!" Yes. That is accurate. That's what I consider working as intended.

Mandatory birth control for both sexes before age 25 would be good too.

Tigerpine

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 493
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #394 on: March 01, 2021, 09:41:09 AM »
Age is tricky.

Most people don't have a fully developed frontal cortex until 25.  Yet we allow them to have credit, drive, vote, marry, fuck, be tried in court as an adult, and kill for us in wars long before that.  Nobody I know wants to push the legal age for these things to 26 though.

Don't say "nobody", as I'd be fine with raising the minimum age for all kinds of things to 25 as well as having separate rules for bankruptcy of debt accrued before age 25. At first people might say "But then lenders won't want to lend to people under 25!" Yes. That is accurate. That's what I consider working as intended.

Mandatory birth control for both sexes before age 25 would be good too.
You could go another route, too.

Scandium

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2827
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #395 on: March 01, 2021, 11:35:55 AM »
I'll be blunt about this.

You tell a 16 or 17 year old: "You must go to college if you want a good job."
Then you tell them: "Borrowing money to invest in your education is a good idea."
You hammer this idea in their impressionable brains for years.

Meanwhile, you haven't imbued them with any responsibility.

I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

(yes I know there are borderline (or overt) scam for-profit colleges, but that's a small part of the problem. Most kids don't go to those. And that's a different issue anyway)

chemistk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #396 on: March 01, 2021, 01:50:00 PM »
I'll be blunt about this.

You tell a 16 or 17 year old: "You must go to college if you want a good job."
Then you tell them: "Borrowing money to invest in your education is a good idea."
You hammer this idea in their impressionable brains for years.

Meanwhile, you haven't imbued them with any responsibility.

I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

(yes I know there are borderline (or overt) scam for-profit colleges, but that's a small part of the problem. Most kids don't go to those. And that's a different issue anyway)

Look, not all families (nor their dynamics) are created equal. Of course it's necessary for parents to be closely involved in the college conversation, but just because it's a good idea doesn't mean that it happens. Or, that it happens in a productive manner.

When I was in 11th/12th grade, my parents told me I was going to school, more or less chose the school I would end up going to, and told me I must graduate. And then they tossed $25k worth of loans my way, without gathering my input on the matter.

This is probably a little TMI and slightly off topic (even for this veer the discussion has already taken), but my parents also never gave me the sex talk. It's a miracle that I was able to put it all together myself.

My parents are not bad people and I have a great relationship with them, but my experience was by no means an outlier among my social circles in HS and College.

Often what happened to others I knew was that they and their parents were sold on the college narrative and really didn't even consider the costs. Many people who had a similar experience to me were considering undergrad degrees that would have cost well into the six figures, but the mental gymnastics they performed 'justified' the degree because of the institution that was offering it.

But to remove anecdotes from the equation, here's an interesting site with reasonably credible links. I'll unceremoniously cherry pick a couple things - https://financesonline.com/student-loan-statistics/#:~:text=%20Demographics%20of%20Student%20Loan%20Borrowers%20%201,graduates%20owe%20%2425%2C000%20more%20in%20student...%20More%20#:~:text=%20Demographics%20of%20Student%20Loan%20Borrowers%20%201,graduates%20owe%20%2425%2C000%20more%20in%20student...%20More%20


Quote
On average, African-American college graduates owe $25,000 more in student loan debt than their Caucasian counterparts. (EducationData.org, 2020)

Quote
32% of Black and African-American students borrow an average cumulative amount of $25,000 to $39,999 for undergraduate studies. In contrast, 40.6% of White and Caucasian students borrow an average cumulative amount of $0 to $9,999 for undergraduate studies. (EducationData.org, 2020)

Quote
21% of young degree holders have families that earn less than $40,000. (Pew Research Center, 2019)

Quote
40 % of the highest-income households that earn over $74,000 a year make almost three-quarters of student loan debt payments. (The Brookings Institution, 2020)
On the other hand, 40% of the lowest-income households contribute less than 10% in payments for outstanding student loan debts. (The Brookings Institution, 2020)

Quote
57% more women graduate with bachelor’s degrees than men. (Business Insider, 2019)

Quote
Women have $2,700 more student loan debt than men. (Business Insider, 2019)

Quote
Around 50% of parents of all boys save money for college compared to 39% of parents of all girls. (T. Rowe Price, 2017)

-----

Is it really a big leap to see how the system is flawed? Take your expectation of the 'rational actor' out of the equation, and you can see that for many people, student debt is disproportionately affective.

And taking those people out of the current higher ed (4+ yr degree) system, and it just creates an even worse feedback loop - that white males from middle to upper class families are the only ones who can afford a university education.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #397 on: March 01, 2021, 05:17:31 PM »
I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."

Ecky

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 342
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #398 on: March 01, 2021, 06:17:26 PM »
I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."

In my case I was a first-generation college grad, child of an abusive alcoholic single mother. When I turned 18 and had a path out of the torture chamber I grew up in, I signed my name on the dotted line.

Needless to say, I was not prepared for college, and I did not have any financial education. My mother knew nothing about finances and the advice she did give me was egregious. It's a wonder I only came out of it with $140,000 and a bachelor's I don't use.

Your point is well made. Certainly, I had agency, but there's a hierarchy, and my concerns at the time were not about optimizing my monetary situation in the far future.

Scandium

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2827
  • Location: EastCoast
Re: Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness
« Reply #399 on: March 01, 2021, 08:33:12 PM »
I'm confused; do none of these "kids" have parents?! I talked to my parents quite a bit about college, before going and during. I even considered going for an expensive degree, and talked to my dad about borrowing for it, and whether the resulting jobs would be adequate for paying it back. That's just common sense!

You invest in an education, is the payoff worth it; yes/no. That's the first question! Even an 18 year old can see that, and if they don't... that's why humans have parents, two even! Why is this so hard? Why is this always discussed as if 18 year old make all their own decision with no support?

I'm reading this as, "why don't kids just have good parents? Then they won't ever make mistakes!"

Let me go back to the parent selection part of my life journey and make sure to pick ones with good financial sense who are willing to be engaged in my life.

I really shouldn't even complain, my parents stayed married and made decent income, so I still won the lottery there (even though we had zero conversations around this topic when I went to college). Even with above average parents I still consider myself incredibly lucky I didn't end up in major student loan debt. It certainly wasn't for any decision making process I did or help from my parents.

Tying $100k of debt to "did you pick the right parents?" feels... well, off.

Not to mention how much worse it often is for first generation college students who have minimal actual guidance from parents on this other than "go to college."
But then this logic applies to everything then. Got a car loan you can't afford? Bad parents. Bought a house that's too big? Bad parents. Though not necessarily wrong, at some point shouldn't we instead focus on the core lack of education /guidance issue? Rather than forgive the loans of, not just the people who made poor choices, but every single person with student debt? If it is being talked about better college guidance and prep, I have not heard much about that.

Secondly; I have no doubt some receive poor advice from their parents, but they way it's being told almost every single person with student debt is some poor victim who didn't know better. I refuse to believe there are that many people out there (who managed to get into college!) with awful parets. Kids with the worst parents usually don't get to college at all.

Actually; thirdly. I went to college in a country with "free college", but I still got debt of about $30,000 for living expenses. About the median in the US. I support free public colleges, it's idiotic not to, but it will still cost, there will still be debt.

Rather than forgive outright I think the government should take over the debt and set the interest at the long term treasury rate. Then have a program of forgiveness for needy situations or something.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!