Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness

[thesis]

My gut is that I don't like the idea because it's unfair to those who worked hard and paid their loans off. However...I'd guess that the vast majority of those with student loans would be willing to work hard to do the same, but something just didn't work out for them along the way. I have a "worthless" social science degree, but I managed to get into software development. It's easy for me to sit high on my horse, when I could just as easily have ended up in the trenches right now, struggling to pay off the debt I had with, say, a minimum wage job....

I guess more important is just that people need A WAY OUT. The current system doesn't allow this. And sure, I get that doctors and lawyers were filing bankruptcy back in the day just to get those pesky loans of their backs, but for most people that didn't make any sense. I think that bankruptcy should clear student loans. I've heard it's a gut-wrenching process, but for some, there's simply no other option. It does trash your credit for, was it 7 years? Or 10? I don't know. But it would be a way out. Revocation of licenses to practice might discourage the whole doctor/lawyer issue, but would work out well for those who only made it half way. I mean, if you never became a full doctor or lawyer, you don't exactly have a license to practice anyway, know what I'm saying?

Just ramblings. I'm sure there are other options, too, but we also have to make sure we aren't encouraging schools to simply charge more at the same time. Of course, if Uncle Sam wants to forgive $50k but wants to pass me $10k for paying my loans off, hey I'll take that ;-)

[reeshau]

This is terrible policy because it somehow manages to be both too broad and too narrow.

It provides "relief" to all debtors regardless of need or merit.
It excludes the majority of Americans who chose not to study past high school.

I like my social programs very broad (universal or nearly so), or very targeted. This is neither, so it's a hard pass for me. It's not like there aren't forgiveness programs already out there, focus on those.

+1

I would be in favor of a modification that turned student loans into an equity position:  a percentage of future earnings of the student for some time.  There would need to be some accommodation for earnings potential, but I think true transparency and accountability in education won't happen until the colleges feel it, too.

My wife was talking to a friend yesterday, who has a daughter going to Texas A&M.  My wife has a lot of Aggie logo things, and wanted to pass it on to someone who would value it.  The friend talked about how expensive school is, and how excited her daughter is.  She started listing off the things she liked at her dorm:  individual bedrooms, private bathrooms, movie room, etc.  My wife lost it when the list got to *LAZY RIVER.*  There is price inflation related to reduced state support, increased spending on R&D, etc. which might be justifiable.  But there is a portion that also goes to coddling.  Whether this is the whole "everyone gets a trophy" mentality, or the schools trying to add some flash to justify the sky-high tuition, it's entirely unnecessary.  It demonstrates that there is a bubble.

It also keeps people from resetting their expectations--no "broke college student" days, filled with Ramen Noodles, Taco Bell, and a hot plate in the dorm room.  Things keep on just like they were at home, with Mom and Dad in their peak earning years.  I think it's an opportunity missed for people to counter the hedonic treadmill.

[researcher1]

I agree Sugaree. We live near a pretty cheap college town. My husband teaches at a second tier state school that caters to non-traditional and commuting students, so exactly the type of students centwise is talking about.

But even in the cheap college town tuition has doubled in 15 years while minimum wage has only gone up by $1.30.
A 4 year U (even one that caters to "non-traditional" students) just doesn't work well when you have to work full time to make it happen.
Which is exactly why people take out loans, so that they can focus on their studies and actually complete the degree.

How much is the annual tuition at the "second tier state school that caters to commuting students"?
I just posted about tuition at a top-tier state school satellite campus being only $6K/year.

And why do you assume students have to work a minimum wage job or work full-time?
There are lots of jobs that pay more than minimum wage AND don't interfere with class schedules.

I worked as a server/bartender and took home a big wad of cash nearly every shift and never missed a class because of the job.
And there is a lot of time when school is not in session (summers, spring break, winter break) that you can work full-time.

Also, the vast majority of students do not have to get an apartment while in school.
Most can continue living with parents/family, attend the local community college/satellite school, and not have to pay rent.

[SwordGuy]

This is giving millions of people a free pass to live well beyond their means while in college.
These loans pay for fancy apartments, fancy clothes/electronics, eating out 3 meals/day, not having to work, sleeping in every day, skipping class, partying every night.
I saw most of my friends take out the maximum in student loans simply to pay for their carefree lifestyles...and several didn't even graduate!

The large state school in my Midwestern town has two satellite campuses.
Total tuition is $6000 per YEAR.

Tuition is only part of the cost.   There are Fees which can cost another 20%.   Books are not cheap.

4 Years * (6000 Tuition + 1400 Fees + 1600 Books + $9000 living expenses) =  $72,000.    That's hardly a luxury lifestyle.

$10,000 in loan forgiveness would free about 33% of those with student loans.
$50,000 in loan forgiveness would free about 82% if I remember correctly. 

Take out the doctors and lawyers out of the remaining 18% and you're left with the folks you're talking about and some outliers getting PhDs without fellowships.

A $50,000 loan forgiveness would cover most of the essential expenses and those who racked up huge student loans on top of that will still be stuck paying for those luxuries.    So what's your beef with that?

[Cranky]

The state university where dh teaches has a fair number of homeless students, and a food pantry.

[StarBright]

I agree Sugaree. We live near a pretty cheap college town. My husband teaches at a second tier state school that caters to non-traditional and commuting students, so exactly the type of students centwise is talking about.

But even in the cheap college town tuition has doubled in 15 years while minimum wage has only gone up by $1.30.
A 4 year U (even one that caters to "non-traditional" students) just doesn't work well when you have to work full time to make it happen.
Which is exactly why people take out loans, so that they can focus on their studies and actually complete the degree.

How much is the annual tuition at the "second tier state school that caters to commuting students"?
I just posted about tuition at a top-tier state school satellite campus being only $6K/year.

And why do you assume students have to work a minimum wage job or work full-time?
There are lots of jobs that pay more than minimum wage AND don't interfere with class schedules.

I worked as a server/bartender and took home a big wad of cash nearly every shift and never missed a class because of the job.
And there is a lot of time when school is not in session (summers, spring break, winter break) that you can work full-time.

Also, the vast majority of students do not have to get an apartment while in school.
Most can continue living with parents/family, attend the local community college/satellite school, and not have to pay rent.

Approximately 11k a year, including fees. Which obviously isn't horrible but it ain't cheap.

I assume minimum wage because I live in the rustbelt and the school is located in a pretty rural area, and the job market isn't thriving here. I assume working and renting because that seems to be a very typical situation for my husband's students.

I think it is a very middle class thing to be able to live with your parents rent free while you go to school? I grew up in a very blue collar area and for the few that went to college they were still expected to contribute to the household expenses as soon as they graduated from high school. Heck, my parents are awesome and paid some money towards my bachelor's degree but still expected me to pay rent if I came home in the summer.

Don't get me wrong - a good state school is an absolute bargain if you can get in. Our flagship U is only like 13k a year in-state. My husband's U is a bargain if you have a sold middle class income. But in-state acceptance rates are dropping at the best state schools because state funding for schools drops year over year and they need money so they take more out-of-state students.

University costs are obviously regionally dependent as well. States with strong university systems seem to have better deals.

I went to a private school, mostly on scholarship, in a HCOL city and could barely pay living expenses w/ two jobs in the summer and working during the school year. I was determined not to take out loans in undergrad. I was a less competitive student because I had to work so much. 

I don't begrudge people making the best choices they think they can make when they are 18 years old. I think most people are hard workers. I don't mind wiping the slate clean on this ridiculous student loan experiment of the last 25 years and starting over (even if that means cutting some slackers a break they don't deserve.) I think it will help more hardworking young people than fund the "undeserving".

[ender]

Do we want governments to encourage everyone to go to college?

Why favor those folks vs say trades folks?

[Runrooster]

How about a $10000 gift to anyone who's graduated from college in the last 30 years?
If your parents raided their 401k to do it, you could pay them back.
If you worked in school minimum wage jobs and ate ramen noodles to pay off your loan, you could fund your 401k.
If you didn't pay off your loan yet, you could use it for that.

[therethere]

How about a $10000 gift to anyone who's graduated from college in the last 30 years?
If your parents raided their 401k to do it, you could pay them back.
If you worked in school minimum wage jobs and ate ramen noodles to pay off your loan, you could fund your 401k.
If you didn't pay off your loan yet, you could use it for that.

So, continue to uphold privilege to keep the divide between people? Sure. The rich who can afford college already, become richer. The poor and middle class stay the same, but their daily costs go up due to everyone getting 10k. Brilliant idea......

[StarBright]

And don't y'all think Schumer is throwing out the 50k number so that Joe can do the 10k as a compromise?

Per Brookings: 10k forgiveness "could eliminate debt for the 15 million borrowers with smaller balances who, paradoxically, tend to struggle most, accounting for about 60 percent of all defaults."

I'd love to see 50k forgiveness plus a reworking of the higher ed funding in the US. But 10k would help a lot of people.

[JGS1980]

My gut is that I don't like the idea because it's unfair to those who worked hard and paid their loans off. However...I'd guess that the vast majority of those with student loans would be willing to work hard to do the same, but something just didn't work out for them along the way. I have a "worthless" social science degree, but I managed to get into software development. It's easy for me to sit high on my horse, when I could just as easily have ended up in the trenches right now, struggling to pay off the debt I had with, say, a minimum wage job....

I guess more important is just that people need A WAY OUT. The current system doesn't allow this. And sure, I get that doctors and lawyers were filing bankruptcy back in the day just to get those pesky loans of their backs, but for most people that didn't make any sense. I think that bankruptcy should clear student loans. I've heard it's a gut-wrenching process, but for some, there's simply no other option. It does trash your credit for, was it 7 years? Or 10? I don't know. But it would be a way out. Revocation of licenses to practice might discourage the whole doctor/lawyer issue, but would work out well for those who only made it half way. I mean, if you never became a full doctor or lawyer, you don't exactly have a license to practice anyway, know what I'm saying?

I favor this idea of allowing Student Loan Debt to be discharged in Bankruptcy. I would also favor a "clawback" provision where the schools who provided worthless degrees to their students or accepted a borderline student just for the loan money would be charged 50% of the discharged debt by the US government (and it they don't pay, they are no longer eligible for loans). Both students AND universities need to have "skin in the game".

JGS

[GuitarStv]

35% of jobs require a bachelors degree today.  Why do we charge for secondary education at all?  It always seemed like something that was done mostly to increase class separation and inequality.

[Laserjet3051]

How about a $10000 gift to anyone who's graduated from college in the last 30 years?
If your parents raided their 401k to do it, you could pay them back.
If you worked in school minimum wage jobs and ate ramen noodles to pay off your loan, you could fund your 401k.
If you didn't pay off your loan yet, you could use it for that.

Why stop at 10k? If we're shoveling free helicopter $ to everyone who has ever gone to college, lets just call it an even $100k. Folks will really love biden and the dems. Could even usher in a 2nd term for mr biden.

[Luck12]

35% of jobs require a bachelors degree today.  Why do we charge for secondary education at all?  It always seemed like something that was done mostly to increase class separation and inequality.

Definitely, almost everything done in the US is in service of increasing inequality and if you dare try to do something to decrease it you get called a socialist, a pinkie commie, etc.

It doesn't cost much to provide a free public college education and since the US is a sovereign currency issuer there shouldn't be a problem unless you can prove to me that doing so will cause excessive overall inflation. 

It's a matter of priorities:  We pay billions in subsidies for big corporations, a good% of the defense budget is unnecessary, e.g.

[ChpBstrd]

Loan forgiveness would just give the universities license to expand their administrative staff and executive salaries even more, because students will pay more, because they are betting the government will forgive their loans.

I also think the government should (slowly) get out of subsidizing the housing market. These efforts have NOT improved affordability as originally thought. They have only raised prices and house sizes by making financing cheaper than what the market equilibrium would be.

All the affordability crises we see today (housing, education, medical care) are tied to government loan guarantees or subsidies interacting with a profit-driven private market. The net result has been a disaster for consumers. Problem is, now all these areas have huge industries and lobbies built around collecting rents from the population.

[Sugaree]

I agree Sugaree. We live near a pretty cheap college town. My husband teaches at a second tier state school that caters to non-traditional and commuting students, so exactly the type of students centwise is talking about.

But even in the cheap college town tuition has doubled in 15 years while minimum wage has only gone up by $1.30.
A 4 year U (even one that caters to "non-traditional" students) just doesn't work well when you have to work full time to make it happen.
Which is exactly why people take out loans, so that they can focus on their studies and actually complete the degree.

How much is the annual tuition at the "second tier state school that caters to commuting students"?
I just posted about tuition at a top-tier state school satellite campus being only $6K/year.

And why do you assume students have to work a minimum wage job or work full-time?
There are lots of jobs that pay more than minimum wage AND don't interfere with class schedules.

I worked as a server/bartender and took home a big wad of cash nearly every shift and never missed a class because of the job.
And there is a lot of time when school is not in session (summers, spring break, winter break) that you can work full-time.

Also, the vast majority of students do not have to get an apartment while in school.
Most can continue living with parents/family, attend the local community college/satellite school, and not have to pay rent.

Tuition for "full time" (12 hours) is $7800 + $700 university fees (gotta pay for that new student rec center with climbing wall and Starbucks) + $50 course fees = $8550 not counting books and living expenses.

That's 24 hours a year.  In order to graduate, my degree program required 120 hours.  Unless you took 15 hours a semester or 6 hours every summer, it would take 5 years. 

[Sugaree]

Loan forgiveness would just give the universities license to expand their administrative staff and executive salaries even more, because students will pay more, because they are betting the government will forgive their loans.

I also think the government should (slowly) get out of subsidizing the housing market. These efforts have NOT improved affordability as originally thought. They have only raised prices and house sizes by making financing cheaper than what the market equilibrium would be.

All the affordability crises we see today (housing, education, medical care) are tied to government loan guarantees or subsidies interacting with a profit-driven private market. The net result has been a disaster for consumers. Problem is, now all these areas have huge industries and lobbies built around collecting rents from the population.

This is why forgiveness has to come with meaningful reform.  Whether that's a reduction in the limits on federal loans, or limits on private loans, or making private loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, or limiting tuition hikes to inflation, or something else.

[EvenSteven]

For those suggesting larger reforms or handing out 50k to everyone, how do yo do that while bypassing congress? The point of doing it this way is that you don't need McConnell to bring up a bill for a vote in the senate.

[researcher1]

Tuition is only part of the cost.   There are Fees which can cost another 20%.   Books are not cheap.
4 Years * (6000 Tuition + 1400 Fees + 1600 Books + $9000 living expenses) =  $72,000.    That's hardly a luxury lifestyle.

Making up numbers does not help prove your point.
- The $6000 tuition I quoted includes ALL fees, so the made up $1400 "fees" goes away.
- $1600/year for books for a standard undergrad degree?  You are out of your mind.
- $9000 in "living expenses" is not a college expense.  It can and should easily be covered by working a part-time job.  You would have this expense regardless of whether you are in college or not.

A $50,000 loan forgiveness would cover most of the essential expenses and those who racked up huge student loans on top of that will still be stuck paying for those luxuries.    So what's your beef with that?

I have several beefs...
1)  It penalizes the very people and behaviors that should be encouraged. 
Those who make wise financial decisions, live below their means, and work through college get shafted because they didn't take money from the government.
2) It rewards poor decision making, laziness, and government dependence...by forgiving loan debt people choose to accumulate.
3) It screws over people who chose to go to technical/trade school instead of taking out government loans to go to college.

Student X: 
Goes to a cheap community college before transferring to a local state college, lives at home/rents a room while, eats meals at home, works part-time during school year and full-time in the summer.   
Proudly graduates with ZERO student loans.

Student Z: 
Picks a fancy out-of-state school, lives in a fancy house, parties & eats out every day, never worked a day in their lives.
Ends up flunking out of school after racking up $50K in government loans.
Gets rewarded with a free $50K gift from Uncle Sam, paid for in part by Student X!

If you want to hand out piles of money, then it should be done with some semblance of fairness.

[centwise]

My vote is no.

Tuition is getting higher and the loan burdens are getting worse, but this is NOT A SECRET and I no longer believe anyone who categorically says "nobody told me" that loans would be a burden. Student loan horror stories have been around for a decades already, and every high school student has heard that (1) some people say that college is a good investment (which it certainly can be) and (2) people who say "go to the state school, avoid loans and get an employable skill". In my area trade schools are not overlooked and most high schools have strong connections to both the trade schools and the college-prep pipeline. But people choose to only hear what they want to hear.

College students do not have to go to private schools, wear Canada Goose parkas, carry iPhone 11s, eat sushi for lunch and have Starbucks three times a day. You don't need to take out ridiculous loans if you work in the summer, live frugally and attend a state school and/or community college or a trade school. A loan forgiveness program would simply mean that the smarter more mustachian students are paying for both their own modest loans as well as (through taxes) the extravagant college degrees and lifestyles of others.

I agree with the first part.  The bolded part however is questionable.  When my dad attended the state school in the mid 70s it took ~500 hours of minimum wage work to pay for three quarters.  That is just over 30 hours a week for the 16 week summer term.  Working for the summer and living at home made paying tution for the next year possible.  Work full time and you even had some  beer money left over.  Sure, you'd probably have to work a little during the year to pay rent and stuff, but still doable.
.

I agree Sugaree. We live near a pretty cheap college town. My husband teaches at a second tier state school that caters to non-traditional and commuting students, so exactly the type of students centwise is talking about.

But even in the cheap college town tuition has doubled in 15 years while minimum wage has only gone up by $1.30. Rents are still low (about half of what I paid 15 years ago at my HCOL undergrad). But at $4-500 for a room in a shared apartment or house, a student with no outside support would need to work about 20 hours a week to cover food and housing, and that doesn't even touch tuition.

My husband's college has a food pantry located in the building to support students. He regularly has students who have to miss class because of scheduled work shifts. A 4 year U (even one that caters to "non-traditional" students) just doesn't work well when you have to work full time to make it happen.

Which is exactly why people take out loans, so that they can focus on their studies and actually complete the degree.

Just pointing out that I said you don't need to take out "ridiculous loans"; I never said "no loans at all". I said that frugal mustachian-type students would be paying off their own modest loans; and it is certainly possible to fund a college degree with modest loans and part-time work. And students who take out reasonable loans can and should pay them off.

[Proud Foot]

I do support loan forgiveness at some level but think the whole system needs an overhaul.

I received a 4 year degree and while I enjoyed a lot of the classes not related to my major my goal for attending college was to get the degree. If there was a way to take only those classes related to my major and gotten a degree in 2 years instead of 4 I would have.

Some things I would like to see are:
Federal student loans to have a low interest rate of no more than 1% above the Tbill rate.
Reframe PSLF to where it applies to all borrowers, has a cap amount forgiven at the end of the term, keeps same terms (interest rate, pmt formula) for the remaining amount.
Accelerated degree type programs where you don't need all the general education classes to obtain a bachelors degree.
Tuition free community college
Changing the mindset at the highschool level and encourage most students to go to community college first and then a 4 year
 

[seattlecyclone]

I generally am not a fan of modifying deals after the fact. Millions of people have made billions of financial decisions based on the incentive structure imposed by the student loan system as it exists. Each person has needed to decide how to allocate their money, either to loan payments or to other things that seemed like a bigger priority at the time. To forgive the loans after the fact changes all of these tradeoffs after the resulting decisions have been made. People who are more debt-averse and aggressively paid off their loans will be made worse off than similarly situated people who instead decided to prioritize other uses for that money and therefore still carry a student loan balance. This seems like a nonsensical outcome.

[Mrs Brightside]

I would prefer that everyone was automatically put on income-based repayment plan (10% of income minus some percentage of poverty line) and the remaining balance forgiven after 20 years. Alternatively I feel like putting an income limit on the $10k forgiveness might get rid of some of the negative feelings about it.

[dizzy]

Personally, in favor of it.  I went to acupuncture school.  They made it seem like we will easily make 6 figures.  I know very, very few of my colleagues making this a few years into this profession, some have quit completely.  School cost $160k all said and done (housing costs went up a ton where I was living over the 12 semesters of graduate level study - I did this in 4 years).  There are almost no scholarships for acupuncture school (I did get one, that was $1k).  I went to a just under mid priced school.  I applied for thousands of jobs in the time I lived in that city, the only ones I got were minimum wage, and I couldn't work full-time.

I am hustling my butt off at personal risk and due to that, am taking jobs others wouldn't due to feeling unsafe.  I am happy to do this so far, providing care is important to me, and I work at a combo of affordable clinics and inner city clinics where it's pretty much unheard of to have an acupuncturist (accident/injury type ones, they aren't paying out of pocket).  I am now enroute to make $50k this year at least if not more (hard to say, some stuff is compensation based and shut downs have started here again).  This is a massive income jump for me compared to the last few years.

I also used to be a musician full-time.  I went to school on full scholarship, but I don't think people should be blamed for a hard sell (I know A LOT of people who went to the expensive conservatories, and DID end up with jobs).  People I knew were hustling how they could, and paying their bills, not dipping out.  So few people are working right now.  I'm so grateful I play an instrument it's possible to play outside all year long.  An entire industry is shut down.  There are plenty of other fields that have been shut down.  $50k to be honest is a drop in the bucket for a lot of these educated folks that have a lot to add to our culture.  How come big biz can get it but not other fields like medicine (especially the lower paying fields), arts, music, education?

I also don't understand this idea of students are using their loans for iphones/expensive eating out and stuff.  This was not what I observed in school except in acupuncture school for those students who were paying out of pocket/had a lot of cash from previous careers.  If anything people were living on nothing in order to save up for: 1. Music school: audition fees/travel expenses, instruments, music, other supplies) 2. Acupuncture school: board exam fees, licensing fees/certifications, clinic start up supplies.

I will admit full disclosure- I lived VERY frugally during acupuncture school, saved my work-study money and side music gig money to the tune of $9k, travelled for a year in between.  But I did some volunteering programs in acupuncture during that time, as well as some long hikes, lost 35lbs, got in physical/mental shape I was ready to really treat people.  When I moved back to civilization I was immediately offered work due to having some experience.  Very few "jobs" in acupuncture (tho this is changing!)- and almost all want experience, but how do you get it?  Have to start your own clinic, get lucky with knowing someone, or do something like what I did.

I also would be happy to support some program where the forgiveness is not taxable or minimally taxable at the end, or to expand PSLF to other medical fields like mine that are not currently included.  also to give partial forgiveness if there is not full-time work available (in my fields it's not, I know that's an issue with a lot of my peers, yes, even teachers in public schools.  Arts/music is quite often not full-time and no/few benefits).

[E.T.]

I'm in favor of discharging student debt with the caveat that the system needs to be changed for future students accordingly. I like the idea of free community college or something like that but I'm not a policy person.

[StarBright]

hi @dizzy! Former fellow conservatory kid here and I love seeing musicians on these boards. Musicians get the hustle!

And yes my entire cohort from grad school can't do their jobs right now because of the pandemic. And these are the people that made it through the '09 recession w/ music careers and gigs still intact. I wish these folks who bring such joy and beauty into so many lives could catch a break (like student loan forgiveness :) .

[doneby35]

Yes, let's forgive student loans, auto loans, mortgages, credit card debt and all types of personal loans that people agreed to sign up to. We can just make other people who have nothing to do with it, pay for it. Brilliant, but I'm voting no.

[FLBiker]

I would much rather see something more universal like a UBI or one time stimulus check than something that benefits only a select group of people. It seems unfair that people who paid off their loans early, never took out loans, or never went to college would get nothing.

I voted yes on the poll, but I agree with this.  I'm a huge fan of UBI.

[SwordGuy]

I would much rather see something more universal like a UBI or one time stimulus check than something that benefits only a select group of people. It seems unfair that people who paid off their loans early, never took out loans, or never went to college would get nothing.

Someone ran into my parked car and got away.  The police didn't find them.
I think it's unfair the police caught someone else who ran into someone else's car.   Why should those people get justice when I didn't?

That would be sarcasm.   

[martyconlonontherun]

I'm in favor of discharging student debt with the caveat that the system needs to be changed for future students accordingly. I like the idea of free community college or something like that but I'm not a policy person.

Yeah, I'm sure I'm biased because I paid off my loans to a private school the hard way but my main concern is moral hazard. I have a buddy who to the same private school in the midwest and is now in LA to be in the movie industry writing. Like yeah, go ahead and live your life but the whole mentality is that he didn't make a mistake getting an overpriced degree and that he should be able to follow his dreams. The guy worked in the back at Walgreens and was making his way up making decent money, but wanted to follow his passion. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

If you are going to private/for-profit schools, there needs to be stronger regulation on how you can get loans based on your ability to pay them back. Should also have stricter benchmarks of you needing to show progress on the degree.

I would fully support free community schools/public universities for STEM and trade, but there is no reason people should be spending money they don't have for jobs that won't get the ROI.

[dividendman]

I would much rather see something more universal like a UBI or one time stimulus check than something that benefits only a select group of people. It seems unfair that people who paid off their loans early, never took out loans, or never went to college would get nothing.

Someone ran into my parked car and got away.  The police didn't find them.
I think it's unfair the police caught someone else who ran into someone else's car.   Why should those people get justice when I didn't?

That would be sarcasm.

Hrm... it's more like you ran into a parked car and got caught, and now you want everyone who ran into a parked car and hasn't yet paid to get a reprieve, but you don't want the people who hit parked cars and paid their fines to get a refund.

[Tempname23]

I think we should have loan forgiveness for auto loans, everyone needs one to get to work, it would be good for the economy. Also, mortgages, we all need a roof over our heads, it would relieve a big burden from individuals. Maybe even his and hers mortgage forgiveness, this would help reduce the divorce rate. /sarc/
btw, I voted no. :-)

[WhiteTrashCash]

So much silver spoon privilege in this thread. And they are all so blind to it.

[StarBright]

So much silver spoon privilege in this thread. And they are all so blind to it.

I am definitely curious about the socioeconomic backgrounds of the "no forgiveness" folks.  Really, of everyone. Like what childhood/education combo goes into creating one's opinion on this issue.

[2Birds1Stone]

Fuck no.

[mm1970]

Do we want governments to encourage everyone to go to college?

Why favor those folks vs say trades folks?

Trades also very often require further education.  My nephew studied diesel truck mechanics at a trade school.  Plumbers, electricians, etc. often go to trade school.

They aren't free, and not cheap either!

[mm1970]

So much silver spoon privilege in this thread. And they are all so blind to it.

I am definitely curious about the socioeconomic backgrounds of the "no forgiveness" folks.  Really, of everyone. Like what childhood/education combo goes into creating one's opinion on this issue.

It's a combo...

For some, it's "I worked hard and succeeded and paid off my loans doing X, Y, and Z, so anyone can do it!"

For others, "they were stupid and should pay", not recognizing their privilege.

I grew up poor, my parents divorced when I was in HS.  My dad was out of the picture and retired, my mom made $9000 a year.  I got scholarships, grants, and loans.  My mother was a BANKER and we had a hard time keeping track of all the loan documents.  It's not easy to figure out at 17.

My "family contribution" was $1800 a year because my dad refused to fill out any paperwork.  I worked during most semesters and every summer (sometimes 2 jobs/ 60 hrs a week).  In the end, I joined ROTC and they paid for 3 years of tuition/books - but I was still on the hook for room and board.

Still, with all that work, I owed money on loans, and I buckled down and paid them off in 4 years (int rates 8-10%).

BUT, not everyone can do that.  I was smart, healthy, straight, and fit - so able to get scholarships and join ROTC (this was before even don't ask/don't tell).  My mom would send me care packages of ramen noodles.  Even on the 4 hours of sleep I got with work and school and ROTC, I was functional, though my grades suffered.

Many of my classmates were even poorer.  No running water.  Some classmates flunked out - the university drop out rate was 30+ %.  Lots of $$, no degree. 

Plenty of people get scammed by for profit colleges.  Plenty of people don't even know how to do the math.  The reality is, college is only affordable for some.  You want to be a veterinarian?  You better have a college fund - you will NEVER made enough $$ to pay off your loans.  The lower middle class folks are at high risk.  Hindsight is 20/20.

[Paul der Krake]

The Grand Theory of Privilege has been invoked. Everyone who voted "no" is now on notice that they are wrong and should immediately befriend more debtors to personally apologize to. No more discussion is permissible.

[Luck12]

The whole idea of student loans is ridiculous.  I had an amount of student loans that would compound to 100K right now if you just assume 4% interest per year.  I could damn sure use 100K right now, who couldn't?   Not to brag but I went to an elite university and there's just no way I would have been able to afford to graduate without student loans without working full time and likely seeing my grades suffer (not to mention wouldn't have been able to participate in important extracurriculars).  It was worth it financially in the end, but still I'm 100K behind a privileged version of me.

So unless you are wealthy enough you either suck it up and take out loans or kill yourself working full time while your grades and extracurriculars suffer, and then later your admissions to grad school or qualifications for jobs suffer b/c you missed the GPA cutoff.  Or join the military (don't even get me started with that asinine idea) or go for the absolute cheapest school available (and therefore miss out on the higher quality education, connections, and employment opportunities that would've awaited you at a better university). 

A recipe for perpetuating income and wealth inequality.  Fucking obvious we should just use the power of the sovereign currency to make sure nobody has to take out student loans.    That is if we give a fuck about increasing social and economic mobility which a large % of sociopathic America does not. 

[dividendman]

The Grand Theory of Privilege has been invoked. Everyone who voted "no" is now on notice that they are wrong and should immediately befriend more debtors to personally apologize to. No more discussion is permissible.

haha.

I wish we could, you know, separate the person taking a position or making an argument, from the argument itself. Alas, due to all of us having some type of privilege we cannot produce any valid arguments or opinions unless we are not privileged with respect to that argument.

So, rich white guys should be ignored on everything. Rich guys ignored on most things. Rich white gals ignored on some things... all the way to poor colored lesbians and transsexuals having their opinions taken as fact and having their arguments go unchallenged.

It would make these threads a lot shorter.

[StarBright]

The Grand Theory of Privilege has been invoked. Everyone who voted "no" is now on notice that they are wrong and should immediately befriend more debtors to personally apologize to. No more discussion is permissible.

But, the whole conversation is about privilege. If you set aside politically correct "privilege", we are still trying to drill down to the idea of who deserves educational opportunity.

And privilege is part of that conversation.

I think the reason the "Grand Theory" has been invoked" is because some people made comments that feel blind to certain aspects of our culture - just throwing out the idea of living at home to cut expenses assumes that everyone has a supportive family who is willing to cover their living expenses while they pursue their education. So if your family isn't willing are you a sucker for taking out loans?

If you are poor, moderately intelligent, but with no support do you not deserve a chance to aim for a white collar job? Should you only go to trade school (which is still not free)?

Should you have to join the military (thank you Spartana!) and risk your life to become an accountant, a software engineer or a teacher? I had several friends that did that, two didn't come back alive and some are permanently altered.

So who gets access to higher education in our country? 

The problem now is that you have a large part of a generation with enough loans that they are not participating in the economy in traditional ways. Which is a perfectly fine outcome if you don't care if they participate.

But the powers that be and our systems expect/want/need this generation to participate. We "need" millennials and GenZs to buy houses, and cars, and have the children that will eventually be our caretakers and our social security - but they aren't doing those things because a large chunk of them have substantial educational debt, and another large chunk of them don't make a living wage. So how do we fix those problems? Loan forgiveness is being floated as a partial possible solution that can happen via executive order (because the chances of legislative solutions are currently slim).

[Mrs Brightside]

[doneby35]

The Grand Theory of Privilege has been invoked. Everyone who voted "no" is now on notice that they are wrong and should immediately befriend more debtors to personally apologize to. No more discussion is permissible.

Haha, I was actually going to post something similar, saying everyone who voted no is either a trump supporter, a sexist, a racist, transphobe and of course white privileged.

[seattlecyclone]

Agree with @Paul der Krake that the privilege talk is mostly unhelpful here. I acknowledge having a ton of privilege in my life. I agree that education is more expensive than it should be, that this cost has been burdening our young people too much over the past few decades, and that a return to our 1960s-ish policy of subsidizing most of the cost of a public university education would probably pay dividends to our economy going forward.

Where I get hung up on student loan forgiveness, as I alluded to above, is this:

Suppose Alice and Bob both got the same overpriced degree from the same overpriced state school three years ago. Suppose their financial position at graduation is identical: $30k of student loan debt, no assets to speak of. They both get entry-level positions at the same company, making the same salary. They both live frugal lives, putting half their salary away toward building their net worth.

Alice decides she would sleep much better at night having that student loan debt gone, so she puts that extra half of her salary toward her debt and pays it off this year. Bob looks at the interest rates and, similar to the "don't pay off your mortgage club" on this forum, decides he might do better investing. Over that same three-year period Bob pays the minimum on his student loans and puts the rest of his extra half of his salary into his 401(k) instead. The stock market has been doing great the past few years, so Bob's net worth is actually higher than Alice's by now.

By singling out current student loan holders we're saying that Bob is more deserving of government help than Alice, even though he's done better overall. We're saying that people who graduated 10 years ago and have struggled mightily to pay off their student loans on schedule (but finally did it this year!) are less deserving of government help than people who graduated last year in the same exact position. I don't buy it. I agree there are a lot of people who had to dig themselves into a big financial hole getting themselves educated enough to participate in the economy, and I disagree that current student loan balance is a very good proxy for how badly someone has been affected by this issue.

[ender]

I wish we could, you know, separate the person taking a position or making an argument, from the argument itself. Alas, due to all of us having some type of privilege we cannot produce any valid arguments or opinions unless we are not privileged with respect to that argument.

So, rich white guys should be ignored on everything. Rich guys ignored on most things. Rich white gals ignored on some things... all the way to poor colored lesbians and transsexuals having their opinions taken as fact and having their arguments go unchallenged.

It would make these threads a lot shorter.

to be fair, a forum where we all strive to retire as early as possible seems pretty hard to find many people who don't have higher levels of privilege...

[WhiteTrashCash]

I wish we could, you know, separate the person taking a position or making an argument, from the argument itself. Alas, due to all of us having some type of privilege we cannot produce any valid arguments or opinions unless we are not privileged with respect to that argument.

So, rich white guys should be ignored on everything. Rich guys ignored on most things. Rich white gals ignored on some things... all the way to poor colored lesbians and transsexuals having their opinions taken as fact and having their arguments go unchallenged.

It would make these threads a lot shorter.

to be fair, a forum where we all strive to retire as early as possible seems pretty hard to find many people who don't have higher levels of privilege...

A lot of people are quite blind to it. The phenomenon of people being "born on third base and thinking they hit a triple" is quite real. As an outsider from that world, I see it all the time in this type of public discussion.

[GuitarStv]

Agree with @Paul der Krake that the privilege talk is mostly unhelpful here. I acknowledge having a ton of privilege in my life. I agree that education is more expensive than it should be, that this cost has been burdening our young people too much over the past few decades, and that a return to our 1960s-ish policy of subsidizing most of the cost of a public university education would probably pay dividends to our economy going forward.

Where I get hung up on student loan forgiveness, as I alluded to above, is this:

Suppose Alice and Bob both got the same overpriced degree from the same overpriced state school three years ago. Suppose their financial position at graduation is identical: $30k of student loan debt, no assets to speak of. They both get entry-level positions at the same company, making the same salary. They both live frugal lives, putting half their salary away toward building their net worth.

Alice decides she would sleep much better at night having that student loan debt gone, so she puts that extra half of her salary toward her debt and pays it off this year. Bob looks at the interest rates and, similar to the "don't pay off your mortgage club" on this forum, decides he might do better investing. Over that same three-year period Bob pays the minimum on his student loans and puts the rest of his extra half of his salary into his 401(k) instead. The stock market has been doing great the past few years, so Bob's net worth is actually higher than Alice's by now.

By singling out current student loan holders we're saying that Bob is more deserving of government help than Alice, even though he's done better overall. We're saying that people who graduated 10 years ago and have struggled mightily to pay off their student loans on schedule (but finally did it this year!) are less deserving of government help than people who graduated last year in the same exact position. I don't buy it. I agree there are a lot of people who had to dig themselves into a big financial hole getting themselves educated enough to participate in the economy, and I disagree that current student loan balance is a very good proxy for how badly someone has been affected by this issue.

I think that this is a very valid point, and one that's difficult to argue is rooted in privilege.

[doneby35]

This makes no sense whatsoever, unless these people are forcibly being dragged to the train tracks and they do not have the ability to simply decline. I don't see how a lot of people are missing this. This is not a matter of "well I had no other choice", or "I had no idea that I would have to pay this large amount back". It's definitely not the former because nobody is forcing you to sign up for it, and if it's the latter, then other people should not be responsible for your ignorance about the matter.

[reeshau]

+1 to @seattlecyclone 's comment!

I agree there is a problem, and it needs to be solved.  But student loan forgiveness, alone, is a band-aid approach that will reward the underserving (who either squandered their money or their educational opportunity) and punish the deserving, (e.g. Alice, above) in addition to helping a great many deserving people.  It may have a role in a broader program of education reform, but if simply applied and forgotten, it will accomplish little.

I am less swayed by the arguments of "those from 10 years ago."  If we have to settle accounts in the past, how far back do you go?  And to what other inequalities?  There does need to be a line drawn, and it won't be entirely fair.  Perhaps the $10k cap is an idea for looking back, to minimize the disconnects, but unless it is coupled with a change in the model of higher education, the problem will just build up again and we will forget any progress it had made.

[WhiteTrashCash]

This makes no sense whatsoever, unless these people are forcibly being dragged to the train tracks and they do not have the ability to simply decline. I don't see how a lot of people are missing this. This is not a matter of "well I had no other choice", or "I had no idea that I would have to pay this large amount back". It's definitely not the former because nobody is forcing you to sign up for it, and if it's the latter, then other people should not be responsible for your ignorance about the matter.

You must have missed the part of the discussion we had where people are forced to get degrees to even be considered for most types of employment.