Poll: Biden executive order for student loan forgiveness

[Paul der Krake]

It's not even in the draft stimulus bill yet... For now the 10k is pure vaporware with a couple high profile cheerleaders.

So, I'm assuming doing it as an executive order is completely off the table? I had heard that bandied about some in the primaries at least.

Biden has already made it very clear he would much rather have Congress act. Fact check me on this please, but as far as I can tell, he has never clearly indicated that he would sign an executive order, it's people on his left flank putting words in his mouth and acting offended when he "reneges".

It's possible that he would be convinced to act by executive order, but then lawsuits will be filed before the ink is dry. Terrible optics.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I would love to have the last $10,000 of my student loans paid for me. It can be the nation’s “thank you” to me for doing great service for the public. And I will graciously accept the thanks.

[Gronnie]

And I would love to be given a $10k refund on the loans that I paid in full. And the people that didn't go to college at all because of the cost would love a free $10k too.

[chemistk]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Yeah, I had heard her supported a lower amount before.  But that's still $10,000 too much.  People need to learn to take responsibilities for their own choices.  There's plenty of time left for people to pay back their own student loans without expecting other taxpayers to pay for them.

Yeah, let's have people take responsibility for the predatory lending schemes and privatization of formerly publicly backed programs which enabled the absurd increase in college tuition, directly benefitting everyone but the students going to the colleges and universities and the part-time untenured faculty who do the gruntwork of teaching them. All under the pervasive narrative that "one must go to college to get a good job" which turned out to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies on the '70s and '80s.

There are plenty of people out there who knowingly went to a particular school and spent their school years doing fuckall to get a degree that would actually set themselves up for success.

There's also plenty of people who worked hard in school under the assumption that their chosen major would allow them to break into the working world only to find that entry level positions are only awarded to those who had 'connections' (be it internships that they couldn't afford to participate in, or networking events they had no real way to getting invited to).

For every dumbass who spent 4 years in a fraternity drinking his way through a communications degree, there's another 2-3 people who either "pursued their passion"* and/or worked to get an entry level STEM bachelor's to find at the end of it that the real opportunities are locked behind a PHD and 10 years of menial forced labor working for the next grant.

*Whether or not this happened to you, this was a very common narrative that I was introduced to in high school - that you'd have the best chance of success in life if you went to school for the things you loved rather than for something that would have allowed you a good paying position. It's the exact narrative that colleges and universities use as propaganda to bring even more students (and competition for "limited enrollment opportunities") into their halls to justify the bloated rolodex of degrees they offer and locking plenty of people into permanent, lifelong debt to that university.

I say this all as someone who will make my final student loan payment this year, a private loan no less - I do not stand to benefit from Biden's program, I am not eligible for PSLF, and my loan interest hasn't been 'paused' because of the pandemic.

My brother, on the other hand, finally graduated from his PA program. He is smarter than I will ever be. He graduated top 5% of his class, and will be well over $100k in debt, even after my parents helped him with room&board and earning tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships. At 27, he has yet to find a PA job (at all, not just being picky) in the region he and his fiance hope to live, in the state he received his certification. He'll have his whole career to pay back his loans, but I wager that he won't be out ahead of them until he's close to 37 or 40.

Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, and I don't expect them to mean a damn thing in the broader context of this discussion. I'm still on the fence about the loan forgiveness programs, as it does nothing so affect the cogs of the machine that actually produce the issue, but it's sure as shit a start.

ETA - I'm all for personal accountability. I think it's been completely lost, and it's the first natural response to a problem ("you made this mess you clean it up".

But to clarify/reiterate my stance - the degree machine has been deliberately rigged to work against the average college/university enrolee. It's one thing to tell people to figure their shit out, but when the system is a house of mirrors, the fault doesn't 100% lie with the individual in question.

[Gronnie]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Yeah, I had heard her supported a lower amount before.  But that's still $10,000 too much.  People need to learn to take responsibilities for their own choices.  There's plenty of time left for people to pay back their own student loans without expecting other taxpayers to pay for them.

Yeah, let's have people take responsibility for the predatory lending schemes and privatization of formerly publicly backed programs which enabled the absurd increase in college tuition, directly benefitting everyone but the students going to the colleges and universities and the part-time untenured faculty who do the gruntwork of teaching them. All under the pervasive narrative that "one must go to college to get a good job" which turned out to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies on the '70s and '80s.

There are plenty of people out there who knowingly went to a particular school and spent their school years doing fuckall to get a degree that would actually set themselves up for success.

There's also plenty of people who worked hard in school under the assumption that their chosen major would allow them to break into the working world only to find that entry level positions are only awarded to those who had 'connections' (be it internships that they couldn't afford to participate in, or networking events they had no real way to getting invited to).

For every dumbass who spent 4 years in a fraternity drinking his way through a communications degree, there's another 2-3 people who either "pursued their passion"* and/or worked to get an entry level STEM bachelor's to find at the end of it that the real opportunities are locked behind a PHD and 10 years of menial forced labor working for the next grant.

*Whether or not this happened to you, this was a very common narrative that I was introduced to in high school - that you'd have the best chance of success in life if you went to school for the things you loved rather than for something that would have allowed you a good paying position. It's the exact narrative that colleges and universities use as propaganda to bring even more students (and competition for "limited enrollment opportunities") into their halls to justify the bloated rolodex of degrees they offer and locking plenty of people into permanent, lifelong debt to that university.

I say this all as someone who will make my final student loan payment this year, a private loan no less - I do not stand to benefit from Biden's program, I am not eligible for PSLF, and my loan interest hasn't been 'paused' because of the pandemic.

My brother, on the other hand, finally graduated from his PA program. He is smarter than I will ever be. He graduated top 5% of his class, and will be well over $100k in debt, even after my parents helped him with room&board and earning tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships. At 27, he has yet to find a PA job (at all, not just being picky) in the region he and his fiance hope to live, in the state he received his certification. He'll have his whole career to pay back his loans, but I wager that he won't be out ahead of them until he's close to 37 or 40.

Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, and I don't expect them to mean a damn thing in the broader context of this discussion. I'm still on the fence about the loan forgiveness programs, as it does nothing so affect the cogs of the machine that actually produce the issue, but it's sure as shit a start.

ETA - I'm all for personal accountability. I think it's been completely lost, and it's the first natural response to a problem ("you made this mess you clean it up".

But to clarify/reiterate my stance - the degree machine has been deliberately rigged to work against the average college/university enrolee. It's one thing to tell people to figure their shit out, but when the system is a house of mirrors, the fault doesn't 100% lie with the individual in question.

There's no guarantee of a job with a degree. That should actually be researched ahead of time, and not just anectdotally.

If your brother does what needs to be done and moves somewhere were PAs are in high demand he should have those loans paid off in 3 years or less.

[mm1970]

My brother, on the other hand, finally graduated from his PA program. He is smarter than I will ever be. He graduated top 5% of his class, and will be well over $100k in debt, even after my parents helped him with room&board and earning tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships. At 27, he has yet to find a PA job (at all, not just being picky) in the region he and his fiance hope to live, in the state he received his certification. He'll have his whole career to pay back his loans, but I wager that he won't be out ahead of them until he's close to 37 or 40.

He may have to move to get a starting PA job, and make the region where he hopes to live be his "long game".

[mm1970]

Meh, I'm fine with others getting the 10k and me not getting refunded for mine.

I mean, I had the military pay for a LARGE part of my undergrad degree, plus all of my master's degree, and I didn't even have to go to war!

[chemistk]

Biden not in favor of $50k forgiveness, supports $10k:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-dismisses-a-democratic-plan-to-wipe-out-50-000-in-federal-student-loan-debt/ar-BB1dKk2s

Yeah, I had heard her supported a lower amount before.  But that's still $10,000 too much.  People need to learn to take responsibilities for their own choices.  There's plenty of time left for people to pay back their own student loans without expecting other taxpayers to pay for them.

Yeah, let's have people take responsibility for the predatory lending schemes and privatization of formerly publicly backed programs which enabled the absurd increase in college tuition, directly benefitting everyone but the students going to the colleges and universities and the part-time untenured faculty who do the gruntwork of teaching them. All under the pervasive narrative that "one must go to college to get a good job" which turned out to be one of the biggest self-fulfilling prophecies on the '70s and '80s.

There are plenty of people out there who knowingly went to a particular school and spent their school years doing fuckall to get a degree that would actually set themselves up for success.

There's also plenty of people who worked hard in school under the assumption that their chosen major would allow them to break into the working world only to find that entry level positions are only awarded to those who had 'connections' (be it internships that they couldn't afford to participate in, or networking events they had no real way to getting invited to).

For every dumbass who spent 4 years in a fraternity drinking his way through a communications degree, there's another 2-3 people who either "pursued their passion"* and/or worked to get an entry level STEM bachelor's to find at the end of it that the real opportunities are locked behind a PHD and 10 years of menial forced labor working for the next grant.

*Whether or not this happened to you, this was a very common narrative that I was introduced to in high school - that you'd have the best chance of success in life if you went to school for the things you loved rather than for something that would have allowed you a good paying position. It's the exact narrative that colleges and universities use as propaganda to bring even more students (and competition for "limited enrollment opportunities") into their halls to justify the bloated rolodex of degrees they offer and locking plenty of people into permanent, lifelong debt to that university.

I say this all as someone who will make my final student loan payment this year, a private loan no less - I do not stand to benefit from Biden's program, I am not eligible for PSLF, and my loan interest hasn't been 'paused' because of the pandemic.

My brother, on the other hand, finally graduated from his PA program. He is smarter than I will ever be. He graduated top 5% of his class, and will be well over $100k in debt, even after my parents helped him with room&board and earning tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships. At 27, he has yet to find a PA job (at all, not just being picky) in the region he and his fiance hope to live, in the state he received his certification. He'll have his whole career to pay back his loans, but I wager that he won't be out ahead of them until he's close to 37 or 40.

Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, and I don't expect them to mean a damn thing in the broader context of this discussion. I'm still on the fence about the loan forgiveness programs, as it does nothing so affect the cogs of the machine that actually produce the issue, but it's sure as shit a start.

ETA - I'm all for personal accountability. I think it's been completely lost, and it's the first natural response to a problem ("you made this mess you clean it up".

But to clarify/reiterate my stance - the degree machine has been deliberately rigged to work against the average college/university enrolee. It's one thing to tell people to figure their shit out, but when the system is a house of mirrors, the fault doesn't 100% lie with the individual in question.

There's no guarantee of a job with a degree. That should actually be researched ahead of time, and not just anectdotally.

If your brother does what needs to be done and moves somewhere were PAs are in high demand he should have those loans paid off in 3 years or less.

My point wasn't about my brother. He'll be fine, he will find a PA job that he will enjoy even if it means he needs to relocate.

My broader point was that, especially in the 90's and 00's, we were constantly sold the narrative that higher education was the ticket to a good paying job and a good income. Then and even now, one of the biggest bullet points for any given college or university is how many undergrads find a job within a certain timeframe after graduation.

Nobody ever once stopped to educate me on the cost of higher education. My parents had a keen awareness but they arranged their finances in such a way that we would be eligible for every FAFSA dollar we could qualify for, on top of merit and organization-based scholarships.

But despite that, no high school teacher or counselor ever tried to do anything other than put us on the path to college, irrespective of what our interests were.

It was just assumed to be a fact of life that school would be so expensive, when just a generation prior many people did work their way through school.

Despite the fact that there's no guarantee of a job with a degree, it sure is shit is sold to high schoolers and their parents that there's a guarantee of a job with a job with a degree. High school teachers, guidance counselors, career counselors, admissions reps will never tell a student that they're at risk of being in tens of thousands of dollars in debt with no means to repay because they were oversold and underdelivered.

Higher education is a fucking mess right now, and it has been for quite some time. Have you ever heard of a school choosing to keep tuition flat (or even to lower it) year-over-year? It happens, it's rare, and when it happens its a huge deal because the expectation is that higher education is just going to keep riding that  gravy train of free, guaranteed money - I'm not even going to get into the asinine justification to spend much of that money on 'campus improvements' and 'sports'.

Bringing it back to the issue at hand - college enrollment media looks a hell of a lot like a timeshare presentation. Beautiful campuses, attractive students, meaningless numbers all beautifully organized to lure you and your guaranteed federally-backed non-dischargeable-in-bankruptcy student loans. Dollar signs, is what the students are to so many universities - granted they do fulfill their contractual obligations to educate those kids in whatever the kids think sounds interesting.

So, yeah, parents and prospective students should do their research, but we've been conditioned as a society to expect that a college degree is now necessary for gainful employment above minimum wage and manual labor/trades.

[Cranky]

I’m perfectly happy to have other people’s loans forgiven. The taxpayers of Colorado paid my tuition, and that was a terrific system we should go back to - state universities are public schools.

And I paid my kids’ tuition. It’s nice that they’ve got jobs, but they went to college to know more stuff, just like they went to high school.

[KarefulKactus15]

I think it was said up thread - but it's an odd thought to forgive the loans or give any money to those who probably have higher incomes than people who couldn't / didn't go to university.

It doesn't seem very efficient as far as most help for x amount of dollar spend.

What I want to see most is fixing the root the cause. When loans can't be discharged, the money is given and therefore spent wrecklessly on inflated items.

Then maybe - MAYBE down the road we have more options for those who student debt to income exceeds a certain threshold.

[ericrugiero]

Honestly, I'm surprised by the Democrat's push to discharge student loans.  That party is currently saying we really need to help out poor, underprivileged, minorities in our country.  At the same time, we are talking about forgiving student loans.  Are the people with student loans really the most underprivileged people in our country?  It doesn't seem like it.  What percentage are Black or Latino?  I'm not sure but it seems lower than average.   

Would people spend more (helping the economy?) if their student loans were forgiven?  Sure, some would.  Is that the most efficient way to stimulate the economy?  No way. 

I personally don't feel like it's "fair" to forgive student loans.  Going to college is (should be) a calculated financial decision.  I spent about $60K going to college to get an engineering degree.  I took student loans for some of that money knowing that I would have much higher earning potential and could pay those off quickly after graduation.  It was a great decision for me.  Other people make the decision to start work straight out of high school.  They have (on average) a lower earning potential but they start their earning/saving career 4 years sooner without debt.  If the government pays off my debt but does nothing for them, they are widening the future "wealth gap".  (Again, seems like something the Democrats would be against)

I do feel bad for people who were given bad advice and ended up with lots of debt for a degree (or partial degree) that doesn't increase their earning potential very much.  Our college system is broken and needs to be fixed.  But, it's still not the best use of our tax dollars to do widespread forgiveness.  If we start that, where do we stop?  Maybe I was given bad advice about credit cards and racked up a bunch of debt?  Maybe I bought to much house in Detroit right before the housing prices plummeted?  At some point, people need to take personal responsibility for their choices.  If we just pay off their college debt, most will learn nothing and will borrow money for a vacation, a "clown car" or a "McMansion".  We should look at other options to help those people.  Maybe we could start a program like the Dave Ramsey baby steps without the polarizing political and religious views.  Make that free for everyone.  That way, people build good financial habits that will help them the rest of their lives.  This also seems like a great way to help people who come from under-privileged backgrounds and didn't go to college. 

[mistymoney]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

[Fishindude]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

[JGS1980]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

I agree. Give the kids a break, 10K per student is a pittance.

I'd remind everyone that 1st time college attendees, blacks, and latinos tend to have much more student debt than whites (no fault of their own). Meanwhile since the 80's, public college funding has fallen off the cliff while at the same time tuition rates skyrocketed. [Big Oil subsidies have been left intact, Medicare costs have skyrocketed, SSDI payouts have skyrocketed]. This is class warfare between the old and the young, and the young are definitely losing.

Forgive 10K. Take the win.

[JGS1980]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

[charis]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

What would be the grounds for rejecting them as applicants? Most college applicants look similar on paper and it would be hard to predict who will leave without finishing since there are many reasons, one big one being the cost (hence the loans).

[Paul der Krake]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

What would be the grounds for rejecting them as applicants? Most college applicants look similar on paper and it would be hard to predict who will leave without finishing since there are many reasons, one big one being the cost (hence the loans).

[KarefulKactus15]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Some people don't take the aca subsidy.  Pete himself would be an example this year.

[maisymouser]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Some people don't take the aca subsidy.  Pete himself would be an example this year.

Also, if someone works up to early-retiree-millionaire status (as opposed to inheriting it or winning the lottery) they most likely have paid federal taxes and thus contributed to ACA subsidies for something like 10 years on the lower end (many high earners who accomplish this are in a high tax bracket during earning years) to 30-40 years on the upper end (in which case, give me a break- these people have earned ER however they can make it happen on paper). It's not like they are just taking from a pot they never contributed to.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

I guess if you try really hard you can put any bad choice down to structural factors.

If we're going to give every college student a handout, I'd like that handout too, having paid off my student loans. Otherwise you're just punishing students who did the right thing.

[StarBright]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

I agree. Give the kids a break, 10K per student is a pittance.

I'd remind everyone that 1st time college attendees, blacks, and latinos tend to have much more student debt than whites (no fault of their own). Meanwhile since the 80's, public college funding has fallen off the cliff while at the same time tuition rates skyrocketed. [Big Oil subsidies have been left intact, Medicare costs have skyrocketed, SSDI payouts have skyrocketed]. This is class warfare between the old and the young, and the young are definitely losing.

Forgive 10K. Take the win.

If only there was a clap emoji ^^^ !

[KarefulKactus15]

For those who are saying the system is rigged and that's the reason a payout should occur for student loans -

Do you rate the student loan crisis above or below our current criminal justice system and the war on drugs?

What about credit cards, title loans etc etc - unfortunately the world is pretty full of traps. Even healthcare can easily be a real gotcha.

Why / how do you justify the college loans group  (not even the ones who paid / couldn't afford to go) receiving a payment / forgiveness compared to everyone else?

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

And why give $10k to only the children who went to college - what about the ones who missed out? Give them $20k apiece.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

I agree. Give the kids a break, 10K per student is a pittance.

I'd remind everyone that 1st time college attendees, blacks, and latinos tend to have much more student debt than whites (no fault of their own). Meanwhile since the 80's, public college funding has fallen off the cliff while at the same time tuition rates skyrocketed. [Big Oil subsidies have been left intact, Medicare costs have skyrocketed, SSDI payouts have skyrocketed]. This is class warfare between the old and the young, and the young are definitely losing.

Forgive 10K. Take the win.

If only there was a clap emoji ^^^ !

Seconded.

[StarBright]

For those who are saying the system is rigged and that's the reason a payout should occur for student loans -

Do you rate the student loan crisis above or below our current criminal justice system and the war on drugs?

What about credit cards, title loans etc etc - unfortunately the world is pretty full of traps. Even healthcare can easily be a real gotcha.

Why / how do you justify the college loans group  (not even the ones who paid / couldn't afford to go) receiving a payment / forgiveness compared to everyone else?

Honestly, neither above or below but of a piece with the two bolded things.  Never underestimate how interlocking systems serve to disenfranchise a whole bunch of folks.

I've said it way upthread, but the reason I now see it as pretty easily justifiable is that it was a program that was incentivized by the government that ended up hurting the very people it was supposed to help.

[mistymoney]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

Really? It's all over this forum.

[JGS1980]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

I guess if you try really hard you can put any bad choice down to structural factors.

If we're going to give every college student a handout, I'd like that handout too, having paid off my student loans. Otherwise you're just punishing students who did the right thing.

Hey Bloop, you are in Australia which has a very nice social safety net and relatively cheap college education -> and you are complaining about US handouts?

[WhiteTrashCash]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

Really? It's all over this forum.

Yeah, I find it really hypocritical that millionaires are so opposed for forgiving some debt for struggling people during a pandemic, when they spend their time scheming ways to avoid paying for health insurance or paying taxes.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

Really? It's all over this forum.

Yeah, I find it really hypocritical that millionaires are so opposed for forgiving some debt for struggling people during a pandemic, when they spend their time scheming ways to avoid paying for health insurance or paying taxes.

I understand a little some people's frustration with people trying to get ACA subsidies despite being more wealthy. For the other part, though, I'm really curious where you draw the line on this. Do you personally do nothing to restrict your tax liability? Do you not contribute anything to a 401k or a Roth IRA? Do you voluntarily pay tax on your capital gains of stocks at the rate of your income level (I don't know if you believe this should be what happens, but people with the line of thought your espousing generally do)? I don't think it's hypocritical for the majority of Americans to do things to reduce how much tax they pay (some exceptions could certainly be argued in the ultra-wealthy where they do extreme things to lower their tax rates, but that's not really applicable to people on this forum). I also don't think the charge of hypocrisy applies, because reducing how much you pay the federal government is not the same thing as arguing against the government paying for something to happen. Subsidies fit this bill, but avoiding paying taxes does not.

[maisymouser]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

I guess if you try really hard you can put any bad choice down to structural factors.

If we're going to give every college student a handout, I'd like that handout too, having paid off my student loans. Otherwise you're just punishing students who did the right thing.

Hey Bloop, you are in Australia which has a very nice social safety net and relatively cheap college education -> and you are complaining about US handouts?

There are plenty of US people who paid off their loans or paid them off early (including myself). Bloop is making a pretty fair point for people like me, regardless of whether or not they ever took out a loan for college in the us.

[mistymoney]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

[KarefulKactus15]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

Really? It's all over this forum.

Yeah, I find it really hypocritical that millionaires are so opposed for forgiving some debt for struggling people during a pandemic, when they spend their time scheming ways to avoid paying for health insurance or paying taxes.

I dont oppose helping struggling people. But in my personal observation - Those with college educations are least affected and most likely able to work from home during the pandemic.   I just find it odd that this college debt group is the group that we would even consider or find ethical to financially support with pretty large payouts compared with many people in much worse situations.

[Psychstache]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

What would be the grounds for rejecting them as applicants? Most college applicants look similar on paper and it would be hard to predict who will leave without finishing since there are many reasons, one big one being the cost (hence the loans).

So an A/B HS student with a 1300 SAT score is basically a coin flip to graduate college in 6 years? Seems like that's some shitty predictive validity.

[JGS1980]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

I guess if you try really hard you can put any bad choice down to structural factors.

If we're going to give every college student a handout, I'd like that handout too, having paid off my student loans. Otherwise you're just punishing students who did the right thing.

Hey Bloop, you are in Australia which has a very nice social safety net and relatively cheap college education -> and you are complaining about US handouts?

There are plenty of US people who paid off their loans or paid them off early (including myself). Bloop is making a pretty fair point for people like me, regardless of whether or not they ever took out a loan for college in the us.

Hi Maisy,

My wife and I paid off > 250K in loans. Took us nearly 10 years.  So what? Does this mean other generations should suffer too? Is that what you want?

[JGS1980]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

What would be the grounds for rejecting them as applicants? Most college applicants look similar on paper and it would be hard to predict who will leave without finishing since there are many reasons, one big one being the cost (hence the loans).

So an A/B HS student with a 1300 SAT score is basically a coin flip to graduate college in 6 years? Seems like that's some shitty predictive validity.

Great data driven post! Those metrics may not be everything, but they certainly show a trend, right? I can’t tell you where to draw the line, but right now there are no lines at all. There aren’t even any discussions about drawing lines. That’s a systematic failure in the US. 18 yo needs 30K federal loan with a 2.5 gpa to go to a shoddy private school. Sure! Sign them up!!!

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

[Psychstache]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

There are millions of borrowers who have 10k or less of student loan debt who do not in fact have degrees.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

There are millions of borrowers who have 10k or less of student loan debt who do not in fact have degrees.

Certainly there are. However, overall, statistically, people who went to college are better off than people who did not. If people want to try to propose something where we pay off student loan debt for people who didn't graduate, that's fine, but propose it. It would be an even harder sell, but then the argument could potentially be made that they're actually worse off. In general, though, the way student loan forgiveness is being packaged, there's no rationale that I've seen for forgiving it for that group as opposed to other debt which is also crippling, was taken on by people from predatory practices, etc. It really boggles my mind, because it seems in opposition to what Democrats purport to stand for - it's not helping out the people who need it the most. The issue is not whataboutism either. I'm talking about two situations that are extremely similar (not comparing the cost of student loan forgiveness to the cost of the Green New Deal or anything dissimilar like that), where the Democrats are all gung ho about this issue but with nary a peep about other issues.

[Paul der Krake]

If only there were targeted programs to help those who really aren't seeing a good return on their tuition...

https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/repayment/plans/income-driven

[mistymoney]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

my point here is that the amount of angst over student loan relief is disproportional and seems to center on the 'outrage' of helping people who got a college degree.

do you have any support for your "statistically better off"? I'm familiar with the BA/BS vs AA/AS vs high school earning - but:

1) many people with student loan debt did not complete a degree.
2) do those with student loan debt do better than those without after taking into account student loan payments?

then we need to talk about the spectum of student loans. Maybe a lot are ok, maybe on average they are good, but there are plenty who are not, and in fact - there are a lot of cases where that 10k will be just a drop in a very large bucket. Yes - there are some who may benefit that didn't 'need' it, just like there are those who don't 'need' ACA subsidies put in place for lower income folks to retire, but they take them anyway.

And yes, this cuts out those who may have benefitted, may have 'needed', but wrong timing. Will happen for student loan relief, just like there are people who don't even know you can game the ACA subsidies, and work till 65 just for the health care.

[mistymoney]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

There are millions of borrowers who have 10k or less of student loan debt who do not in fact have degrees.

Certainly there are. However, overall, statistically, people who went to college are better off than people who did not. If people want to try to propose something where we pay off student loan debt for people who didn't graduate, that's fine, but propose it. It would be an even harder sell, but then the argument could potentially be made that they're actually worse off. In general, though, the way student loan forgiveness is being packaged, there's no rationale that I've seen for forgiving it for that group as opposed to other debt which is also crippling, was taken on by people from predatory practices, etc. It really boggles my mind, because it seems in opposition to what Democrats purport to stand for - it's not helping out the people who need it the most. The issue is not whataboutism either. I'm talking about two situations that are extremely similar (not comparing the cost of student loan forgiveness to the cost of the Green New Deal or anything dissimilar like that), where the Democrats are all gung ho about this issue but with nary a peep about other issues.

OOOOO - so this about "the democrats", ok.

nary a peep about other issues? not sure where you are getting that. I think AOC is on constant peeping! about everything!

Currently, about relief for texas....

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

There are millions of borrowers who have 10k or less of student loan debt who do not in fact have degrees.

Certainly there are. However, overall, statistically, people who went to college are better off than people who did not. If people want to try to propose something where we pay off student loan debt for people who didn't graduate, that's fine, but propose it. It would be an even harder sell, but then the argument could potentially be made that they're actually worse off. In general, though, the way student loan forgiveness is being packaged, there's no rationale that I've seen for forgiving it for that group as opposed to other debt which is also crippling, was taken on by people from predatory practices, etc. It really boggles my mind, because it seems in opposition to what Democrats purport to stand for - it's not helping out the people who need it the most. The issue is not whataboutism either. I'm talking about two situations that are extremely similar (not comparing the cost of student loan forgiveness to the cost of the Green New Deal or anything dissimilar like that), where the Democrats are all gung ho about this issue but with nary a peep about other issues.

OOOOO - so this about "the democrats", ok.

nary a peep about other issues? not sure where you are getting that. I think AOC is on constant peeping! about everything!

Currently, about relief for texas....

Um, no, it's not just about Democrats. I am a moderate, not a Democrat. I voted for Biden this time. I'm not trying to score political points, but I will not withhold criticism of a party that deserves it.

And yes, nary a peep. Texas relief is about a natural disaster. You are clearly missing what I am talking about, either intentionally or otherwise because you saw a criticism of Democrats and immediately jumped to your foregone conclusions. I was specifically and clearly talking about the other types of debt that could be forgiven. Have you seen any legitimate pushes for forgiving any of the other types of debt I have mentioned?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

my point here is that the amount of angst over student loan relief is disproportional and seems to center on the 'outrage' of helping people who got a college degree.

do you have any support for your "statistically better off"? I'm familiar with the BA/BS vs AA/AS vs high school earning - but:

1) many people with student loan debt did not complete a degree.
2) do those with student loan debt do better than those without after taking into account student loan payments?

then we need to talk about the spectum of student loans. Maybe a lot are ok, maybe on average they are good, but there are plenty who are not, and in fact - there are a lot of cases where that 10k will be just a drop in a very large bucket. Yes - there are some who may benefit that didn't 'need' it, just like there are those who don't 'need' ACA subsidies put in place for lower income folks to retire, but they take them anyway.

And yes, this cuts out those who may have benefitted, may have 'needed', but wrong timing. Will happen for student loan relief, just like there are people who don't even know you can game the ACA subsidies, and work till 65 just for the health care.

This is a fair point to consider, and I will look into it/put some thought into it.

[iris lily]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

I am one of those millionaires who engineered my retirement income to take advantage of ACA subsidies.

Extra points if you can be a Millionaire on Medicaid, the poor people’s program.

[maisymouser]

I just heard that 43% of student loan holders never actually finished their degree. That's horrifying.

To me, this means that a lot of those folks probably weren't ready for college, and probably shouldn't have been accepted. They certainly would not have been accepted if the schools themselves were liable for their debt as opposed to, say, the federal government. The system failed them, not the other way around.

I guess if you try really hard you can put any bad choice down to structural factors.

If we're going to give every college student a handout, I'd like that handout too, having paid off my student loans. Otherwise you're just punishing students who did the right thing.

Hey Bloop, you are in Australia which has a very nice social safety net and relatively cheap college education -> and you are complaining about US handouts?

There are plenty of US people who paid off their loans or paid them off early (including myself). Bloop is making a pretty fair point for people like me, regardless of whether or not they ever took out a loan for college in the us.

Hi Maisy,

My wife and I paid off > 250K in loans. Took us nearly 10 years.  So what? Does this mean other generations should suffer too? Is that what you want?

I want people to be responsible for the liabilities they have *voluntarily* taken on. I would feel the same way about any other loan forgiveness program that benefits only a subset of the population. Waving around the exact quantity and payoff time for your student loan as an argument for anything is also sort of weird to me. Sorry, but I don't care whether it took you five years or forty, or whether it was 10K or 500K. Congrats on getting it done regardless.

I do agree with your earlier point that many people shouldn't have been accepted into college in the first place. But the colleges themselves are not the loan providers- so while they might be part of the overall problem of ever-increasing college debt, I don't think they are the only party to blame.

I'm in agreement with others that have posted that a 10K forgiveness would not be equitable, and would only serve as a band-aid over a gaping bullet hole. To address your concern that I want people to "suffer"- I'm not a horrible person, I just think there are much better solutions out there.

[mistymoney]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

There are millions of borrowers who have 10k or less of student loan debt who do not in fact have degrees.

Certainly there are. However, overall, statistically, people who went to college are better off than people who did not. If people want to try to propose something where we pay off student loan debt for people who didn't graduate, that's fine, but propose it. It would be an even harder sell, but then the argument could potentially be made that they're actually worse off. In general, though, the way student loan forgiveness is being packaged, there's no rationale that I've seen for forgiving it for that group as opposed to other debt which is also crippling, was taken on by people from predatory practices, etc. It really boggles my mind, because it seems in opposition to what Democrats purport to stand for - it's not helping out the people who need it the most. The issue is not whataboutism either. I'm talking about two situations that are extremely similar (not comparing the cost of student loan forgiveness to the cost of the Green New Deal or anything dissimilar like that), where the Democrats are all gung ho about this issue but with nary a peep about other issues.

OOOOO - so this about "the democrats", ok.

nary a peep about other issues? not sure where you are getting that. I think AOC is on constant peeping! about everything!

Currently, about relief for texas....

Um, no, it's not just about Democrats. I am a moderate, not a Democrat. I voted for Biden this time. I'm not trying to score political points, but I will not withhold criticism of a party that deserves it.

And yes, nary a peep. Texas relief is about a natural disaster. You are clearly missing what I am talking about, either intentionally or otherwise because you saw a criticism of Democrats and immediately jumped to your foregone conclusions. I was specifically and clearly talking about the other types of debt that could be forgiven. Have you seen any legitimate pushes for forgiving any of the other types of debt I have mentioned?

there is this:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/02/coronavirus-stimulus-democrats-try-to-pass-1point9-trillion-relief-bill.html

Democrats’ proposal includes $1,400 direct payments to most Americans, a $400 per week federal jobless benefit through September, and $350 billion for state, local and tribal relief. It also puts $170 billion into K-12 schools and higher education institutions, along with $20 billion into a national vaccination program, among a slew of other provisions.

any student loan in there?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2021/02/01/what-the-new-stimulus-package-says-about-student-loans/?sh=7b90a9812e87

The new, $1.9 trillion stimulus package that President Joe Biden proposed doesn’t include any student loan cancellation. The stimulus plan instead focuses on other policy priorities like $1,400 stimulus checks and $400 a week unemployment insurance. Senate Republicans have proposed a separate $618 billion stimulus package — about a third the size of Biden’s stimulus plan — that also excludes student loan cancellation and offers $1,000 stimulus checks as a response to the Covid-19 pandemic.

I interpert that as the student loan issue is not a high priority for biden right now, although there are a few dems who are trying to push something through on the side of this relief package.

On one hand, with payments suspended and 0% interest on federal loans - I agree with not a priority. However, many people have private student student that are unaffected by those mitigation measures, and if you had consolidated your loans they may not have been affected by the 0%/no payment as well.  Likely the fed will do nothing to impact private loans anyway. Not sure where the consolidated come out.

So I'd say biden and most of his group are not that focused on the student loan thing. He probably just promised sanders that he would do it to get sanders to not derail things like he did in 2016.

[iris lily]

Curious how people reconcile the big no on student loan forgiveness stance while being hunky dory with millionaires retiring and engineering their taxable income to be low and cash in on large ACA subsidies?

Please explain how this is done.

Really? It's all over this forum.

Yeah, I find it really hypocritical that millionaires are so opposed for forgiving some debt for struggling people during a pandemic, when they spend their time scheming ways to avoid paying for health insurance or paying taxes.

I am not keen on yet another gubmnt handout program.

I am especially not keen  on obligations being forgiven, as in the student loan program.

I am resigned, however, to the inherent unfairness of gubmnt programs sometimes benefitting  me and sometimes the opposite. Such is the nature of that beast. Just because I am resigned doesnt mean I like it or I think it is good for the country.

And this brings me to the idea of hypocrisy: you can only call me a hypocrite if you can find anywhere on the internet where I have celebrated the ACA as being a wonderifl fabulous and excellent thing dor our country. Go on, go out there and look. I’ll give you a minute...   hmmm.... lalala...ok, time  is up.

You wont find my words celebrating the ACA on the internet because I have never celebrated it. I think it is a huge unwieldy amazingly bad piece of legislation that while  benefiting a small percentage of our populace caused so much upheaval for the rest of the populace it was not worth it.

Oh and by the way it DID benefit me for a few years between COBRA and eligibility for Medicare.The government program was there, I took advantage of the government program. That doesn’t make me a hypocrite it makes me a sophisticated user of government services.

[mistymoney]

As an example of other fiscal changes, when the tax rates changed:
   Tax Rate   Single   Married Filing Jointly
2017      39.6%   $418,401+   $470,701+
2020      37%   $518,401+   $622,051+

https://smartasset.com/taxes/trump-tax-brackets

a single person making 500k also got a 10k bonus.....but not one time, on a yearly basis going forward. now..... these are people I would say are doing particularly well and likely didn't need an additional 10k in their pockets. But I sure don't remember this level of pointed angst about it. Although - I wasn't here on this board.

Was their complete outrage over these high flying, high earners getting this extra cash? Or was everyone find to pocket their own 900-4k extra and call it good?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

I can understand the sentiment, but oil subsidies is a pretty low bar to pass for reasons why to do something by comparison. I'm being a broken record, but to date in this thread, no one has addressed a true comparison of why the government should forgive student loan debts to people who statistically are better off than other segments of the population, as opposed to forgiving other forms of debt - credit card, payday loans, etc. etc.

my point here is that the amount of angst over student loan relief is disproportional and seems to center on the 'outrage' of helping people who got a college degree.

do you have any support for your "statistically better off"? I'm familiar with the BA/BS vs AA/AS vs high school earning - but:

1) many people with student loan debt did not complete a degree.
2) do those with student loan debt do better than those without after taking into account student loan payments?

then we need to talk about the spectum of student loans. Maybe a lot are ok, maybe on average they are good, but there are plenty who are not, and in fact - there are a lot of cases where that 10k will be just a drop in a very large bucket. Yes - there are some who may benefit that didn't 'need' it, just like there are those who don't 'need' ACA subsidies put in place for lower income folks to retire, but they take them anyway.

And yes, this cuts out those who may have benefitted, may have 'needed', but wrong timing. Will happen for student loan relief, just like there are people who don't even know you can game the ACA subsidies, and work till 65 just for the health care.

Ok, that was a great question. I wanted to look into it because I was not sure myself. From very brief research, it appears that people with some college degree are actually equivalent based off of median net worth to people who just have a high school diploma, which tends to improve with age. Even with the 25th percentile of net worth, it's still relatively equivalent comparing college but no full degree with high school graduates, and it peaks higher to have some college compared to no college.
https://ofdollarsanddata.com/average-net-worth-by-age-and-education/

I'm not going to declare unilaterally that people with some college are better off than people who didn't go, to begin with, but this information would tend to make me think there's not a statistical huge gaping hole for people who started college but didn't finish - a pretty big deal bad idea/situation. If the point was being made that people in that situation need significant help compared to others, I would expect to see statistics showing that it's a problem, but in my opinion, the burden of proof would be on whoever is proposing the government subsidy to prove it.

[sailinlight]

every policy decision about money is going to advantage some over others. Child tax credits for people who will never have children, solar credits for people who hate solar, or could never afford to go solar, etc. etc.

And some raised their kids before the credits, or installed solar before those credits.

Some people are always losing out on new directions, that doesn't mean they aren't the right way to go. 

for student loan forgiveness, seems a much better move than these oil subsidies.....

Just because there exist more bad laws than X, it doesn't mean that we should pass X just because it's not the worst thing ever.... it's not a contradiction to fight against oil subsidies and also student loan forgiveness.