The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: dkaid on January 13, 2016, 08:08:23 AM
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
1) I despise cleaning. I'm a champion tidier but real cleaning makes me angry.
2) I'm a terrible cleaner as I'm pretty impatient by nature.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
4) My DH is not on board with a frugal lifestyle. So while I might work so hard to save $100, he'll go out and blow it some accessory for his fancy Jeep Wrangler. Maddening...!
5) We have lots of other low hanging fruit to address, like home improvement spends, groceries, and buying of "stuff". And I am working on those but I don't have them dialed in by any means.
I have gone for periods without a cleaner before and I always come crawling back. A clean house brings me joy:) I've tried the speed cleaning method but was not successful with it. I've tried a little bit at a time but I hate that it never feels clean at the same time. Getting my husband to help more will not be realistic. I love him dearly but he works a TON and a clean house is not a priority to him so it's just not going to happen.
Ok so now that I've vomited all that up...... Do you some advice for me to just make it happen? Make the process easier? The whole thing feels petty- petty that I care so much and petty that I pay for it.
Thanks for listening.
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Sounds like you're shouldering stay-at-home parent responsibilities + a part-time job. Having a cleaner doesn't seem crazy (depending on your finances generally).
Could you switch to every three weeks?
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Why don't you just switch to a monthly basis, and then halfway through the month just do a quick clean? That way it isn't all on you, but you cut your cost by 50%.
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It sounds like for you it's money well spent, so stop beating yourself up about it. Focus on things that can be changed without feeling deprived or resentful for now.
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Every other week doesn't seem like a terrible life choice at this stage of the game with kids at home and a part time job. If you want to back it down to once a month to save 50% you can; it would be a quick win.
Someone else on this board has said they do most of their own cleaning, but twice a year pay for a full house scrubdown, including baseboards, doors and walls the kids touch, and all the nooks and crannies you never get around to dusting. They say it's the best thing that ever happened to their marriage and parenthood. They do the vacuuming and dusting and bathroom cleaning and such on a weekly or biweekly basis, but have the peace of mind to know that corner then can't get to easily will at least get cleaned twice this year. And they always have to tidy up a lot before the big scrubdown, so they go through their entire home twice a year.
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
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I personally do not like having a house cleaner, mainly because stuff is arranged differently every time they come (i.e. dishes put in different spots than where I normally put them). I also do not like having a stranger inside my house when I am not there, or having to prep for the housecleaner to come (put away sensitive mail, launder items that we don't want them to do etc..). However it makes my DW happy and less stressed so I have come to accept it.
If you are financially able to have a housecleaner and it makes you less stressed I say go for it.
Otherwise if you want to reach FI ASAP outsourcing housework is a simple budgetary category to eliminate.
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Good suggestions here. We have someone come as needed (every 4-6 weeks) for $60. My wife is a SAHM (for now, w/ a 9 mos old). My wife felt we should give up the cleaner since she was SAHM, but I encouraged her to keep her. We compromised by reducing the frequency (used to be every 3 weeks).
With stuff like this, I find it helpful to remember that the goal is quality of life, not simply saving as much money as possible. In a similar vein, I'm toying with the idea of paying for (inexpensive) yard service. When my DD is older and can help out, it will just be more quality time together. Right now, though, it's eating into my limited time with her.
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We both work full time and have two young kids (1 & 3) and this will be one of the last things to come out of the budget, at least until the kids are older. We pay $60 every other week. For me, I consider it a cost of $60 to spend an extra four hours with the kids on a biweekly basis. Because that is what would have to come out of our "time" budget. It sounds like this is really beneficial for you and your family and that there are other places to cut that will likely have less of an impact on you.
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
+1
Just clean it yourselves. Just do it. If husband doesn't want to clean, bitch at him until he does.
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Oh, I know. It does feel like a frivolous thing and as I mentioned I do feel like it's petty of me to care so much, really I do. I want to achieve FI mostly so I can become more involved in charitable causes and paying for services does create guilt on my part. But, I value my marriage and family above those things and bitching at my DH to help, well, let's just say I've tried it and it never works.
A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
+1
Just clean it yourselves. Just do it. If husband doesn't want to clean, bitch at him until he does.
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We both work full time and have two young kids (1 & 3) and this will be one of the last things to come out of the budget, at least until the kids are older. We pay $60 every other week. For me, I consider it a cost of $60 to spend an extra four hours with the kids on a biweekly basis. Because that is what would have to come out of our "time" budget. It sounds like this is really beneficial for you and your family and that there are other places to cut that will likely have less of an impact on you.
This overall is how I feel in my heart of hearts. But there is some tension in that for me, hence the post. Although my husband does not complain about paying for a house cleaner, I feel like I won't be able to win him over to frugality unless I cut absolutely everything I can. Typing this though I'm not sure how solid this logic is- his is very much is own man and I'm most likely overestimating my influence on these matters. Knowing him he might just become more secretive about his spending.....
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We both work full time and have two young kids (1 & 3) and this will be one of the last things to come out of the budget, at least until the kids are older. We pay $60 every other week. For me, I consider it a cost of $60 to spend an extra four hours with the kids on a biweekly basis. Because that is what would have to come out of our "time" budget. It sounds like this is really beneficial for you and your family and that there are other places to cut that will likely have less of an impact on you.
'
Great perspective. There are times in your life when you have more money than time, and times when you have more time than money. I try to make decisions accordingly.
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1) I despise cleaning. I'm a champion tidier but real cleaning makes me angry.
I see this ^^ as the problem. You've already convinced yourself it's difficult and you hate doing it. It's pure mindset. People think I'm insane and/or totally miserable when I carry a heavy backpack of groceries home through a snow and ice blizzard. And yeah, a few years ago I would have been miserable. I've been able to change that mindset completely--now I'm shin-deep in a snowdrift and be like, "Bring it on!! Rage harder snow!! That the best you got, mofo? Goddamn, this is fun!!" It's cold, and it's wet, and it's heavy, and hard, and am I ever happy. I get home, warm up, and think, "man--that rocked!"
Cleaning for me isn't a physical challenge--it's mental cleansing time. I used to dislike it too (because the world tells us we're "supposed to--it sucks"), but now I blare some angry music (Sex Pistols, Ramones, Nirvana) and vacuum like a warlord.
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
1) I despise cleaning. I'm a champion tidier but real cleaning makes me angry.
2) I'm a terrible cleaner as I'm pretty impatient by nature.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
4) My DH is not on board with a frugal lifestyle. So while I might work so hard to save $100, he'll go out and blow it some accessory for his fancy Jeep Wrangler. Maddening...!
5) We have lots of other low hanging fruit to address, like home improvement spends, groceries, and buying of "stuff". And I am working on those but I don't have them dialed in by any means.
I have gone for periods without a cleaner before and I always come crawling back. A clean house brings me joy:) I've tried the speed cleaning method but was not successful with it. I've tried a little bit at a time but I hate that it never feels clean at the same time. Getting my husband to help more will not be realistic. I love him dearly but he works a TON and a clean house is not a priority to him so it's just not going to happen.
Ok so now that I've vomited all that up...... Do you some advice for me to just make it happen? Make the process easier? The whole thing feels petty- petty that I care so much and petty that I pay for it.
Thanks for listening.
How old are your children?
I have a full time job (40 hrs/ week), husband, 2 kids (9 and 3). I also pay $75 every two weeks for a housecleaner.
Sorrynotsorry
The only way I could see it happening is to get the whole family involved. When we were dinks, we cleaned for about 2 hours on Saturday morning. The rules were that laundry didn't count. Two hours and we could clean the place top to bottom.
That's not really possible with kids, at least not toddlers. At some point, I think you could get the kids involved. There are lots of sheets out there with age appropriate jobs. Probably 30 mins would be tidying, then the kids could help dust, vacuum, scrub, whatever. I used to do that as a kid, but again, not as a very needy 3 year old.
I do need to get better at assigning chores.
But I'm still not giving up the cleaner. In fact, today is cleaning day!
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
I dunno, I think that some types of clothing are not supposed to be washed, and I don't have the ability to dry clean at home. It's been a couple of decades since I've been required to wear that kind of clothing. Perhaps my Navy dress uniform was the last.
I have, in my family, more than one person who cleans houses for a living. Plus people who work as a cook at the elementary school. Let's add auto mechanics, bankers (you can keep your money under your mattress, no?) How about the guy who works at the grocery store, or picks the strawberries?
There is no shame in manual labor. People have been trading labor for money for a long time. When you appoint a "shame" in hiring someone to do something for you, you de facto assign a "shame" to people who do the work, no?
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1) I despise cleaning. I'm a champion tidier but real cleaning makes me angry.
Do you know why enjoy the tidying, but hate cleaning? Does it feel unappreciated? Do you not like the chemicals? Does the annoyance outstrip the satisfaction of the clean sparkle at the end? Does the result not last long enough? If you can zero in on that, you might be able to shift your automatic reaction. You, too, could like both tidying and cleaning!
Also, it sounds like you're carrying the burden of 'maintaining the standard' alone, without your husband's help. Changing that could also be powerful. As in, lower your standard, or bring him up to yours. But I'll leave such marital tweaking to you.
Second also, if your kids are old enough, get them cleaning. Child labour is only right and natural.
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
Obviously you have kids, so why is it "do more on my own AND try to convince my DH"? There's another option; get your growing children to help out with age appropriate tasks. If your kid is 8 then get them to sweep the floors. If they're 12 get them to mow the lawn and take out the garbage. If they're 4 get them to pick up toys. Use your judgement but don't be a servant to them, teaching them how to do these tasks is important. One of my goals as a parent is to teach my kid to survive without me which includes cooking and cleaning.
Go with the attitude; how can my family help?
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Knowing him he might just become more secretive about his spending.....
Dude, it feels really off to me that your husband is secretive about spending. Like, ugh - you're a couple, you should have shared values and good communication about this kind of stuff. I was going to suggest Flylady since that helped me become a cleaner, but honestly it might be more beneficial to take that cleaning money and go to couples therapy instead so that he can learn to be more supportive around the house. I'm the main cleaner in the family, but Mr. Whipple does all the grocery runs, the trash, the home improvement stuff. It seems like things aren't equitable in your household and it's likely your frustration grows at least in part out of that.
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
Obviously you have kids, so why is it "do more on my own AND try to convince my DH"? There's another option; get your growing children to help out with age appropriate tasks. If your kid is 8 then get them to sweep the floors. If they're 12 get them to mow the lawn and take out the garbage. If they're 4 get them to pick up toys. Use your judgement but don't be a servant to them, teaching them how to do these tasks is important. One of my goals as a parent is to teach my kid to survive without me which includes cooking and cleaning.
Go with the attitude; how can my family help?
Unless your kids are both under 4, they should be doing a significant amount of house work. All your reasons are just major whining. Your kids have too many activities to help out around the house? Well then, cut some of those so they learn how to scrub their own toilet. Yes, 4 year olds can scrub toilets. Mine used to fight over whose turn it was to do that chore. Teach them young before adolescent resistance sets in.
I work 40hrs/week, keep fit, do nearly all the cooking (no eating out cheats because of an allergic kid), do a lot of the housework, blah, blah, blah and don't have a house cleaner. Besides cost, one of the big reasons is because I don't want my kids to grow up thinking it's normal. I don't think it's important for my kids to spend hours in the gym perfecting their triple sow cow, but they do need to learn to look after themselves. That includes cleaning, cooking, fixing stuff, etc. Plus, when you make everyone clean up their own mess, they learn to become less messy in the first place.
Suck it up princess.
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
I dunno, I think that some types of clothing are not supposed to be washed, and I don't have the ability to dry clean at home. It's been a couple of decades since I've been required to wear that kind of clothing. Perhaps my Navy dress uniform was the last.
I have, in my family, more than one person who cleans houses for a living. Plus people who work as a cook at the elementary school. Let's add auto mechanics, bankers (you can keep your money under your mattress, no?) How about the guy who works at the grocery store, or picks the strawberries?
There is no shame in manual labor. People have been trading labor for money for a long time. When you appoint a "shame" in hiring someone to do something for you, you de facto assign a "shame" to people who do the work, no?
No. Why not have a cook, many already eat out a good deal? Why not automate and hire out all parts of our lives? Because it makes us weak, and eventually unappreciative; and yes if I had the time to, I would pick my own strawberries and grow many more fruits and vegetables(which I will when I FIRE). The difference is most people in the Western world have the time and ability to do their own housekeeping. It is kind of a sliding scale; elderly or disabled go ahead and hire out house cleaning; mountain cabin 200 mi away that has weekly rentals, go ahead. On the road or in another city and don't have time/facilities to prepare your own food or fix your broken car; buy it prepared/get someone to fix. There is a time and place for these things; normal everyday living is not one of them.
Obviously we all have our 'weaknesses' but the goal is to get rid of those and take care of our own business, that is why we come to this forum.
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
Obviously you have kids, so why is it "do more on my own AND try to convince my DH"? There's another option; get your growing children to help out with age appropriate tasks. If your kid is 8 then get them to sweep the floors. If they're 12 get them to mow the lawn and take out the garbage. If they're 4 get them to pick up toys. Use your judgement but don't be a servant to them, teaching them how to do these tasks is important. One of my goals as a parent is to teach my kid to survive without me which includes cooking and cleaning.
Go with the attitude; how can my family help?
Unless your kids are both under 4, they should be doing a significant amount of house work. All your reasons are just major whining. Your kids have too many activities to help out around the house? Well then, cut some of those so they learn how to scrub their own toilet. Yes, 4 year olds can scrub toilets. Mine used to fight over whose turn it was to do that chore. Teach them young before adolescent resistance sets in.
I work 40hrs/week, keep fit, do nearly all the cooking (no eating out cheats because of an allergic kid), do a lot of the housework, blah, blah, blah and don't have a house cleaner. Besides cost, one of the big reasons is because I don't want my kids to grow up thinking it's normal. I don't think it's important for my kids to spend hours in the gym perfecting their triple sow cow, but they do need to learn to look after themselves. That includes cleaning, cooking, fixing stuff, etc. Plus, when you make everyone clean up their own mess, they learn to become less messy in the first place.
Suck it up princess.
I need to get my kids more involved. I've always made them responsible for their own messes (rooms, toys, meals, etc)....but haven't had them doing general cleaning. I'm going to start. Thank you.
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The more I read these threads, the more I think the root of most people using professional housecleaning is relationship issues. I don't say this to downplay the decision; on the contrary, I recognize how difficult these things can be. And, hey, it's cheaper than divorce.
But because it relates to a relationship that presumably the couple values, it might be worthwhile to attempt to solve the underlying problem. The common thread is that (and I will intentionally not gender this) one member of the couple does the bulk of the cleaning and seems to value a clean home more. The other person seems to absolve her or himself of the responsibility because of circumstances or values. I don't have answers for how to solve it, but a cleaning person is a band-aid approach (albeit an effective one).
I think a habitable place to live is absolute, but determining what constitutes a habitable environment is where it gets more complicated. In our relationship, it took some time to bring my spouse around to the idea that, yes, having the expectation of a clean(ish) bathroom and a clean(ish) floor relatively free from dust balls and such does not make me a "clean freak" or someone with inflated standards. Now that we established that some tasks around the house have to be done, I normally do them as the SAHP. But I reserve the right to say, "Honey, I just don't want to get on my hands and knees to scrub the tub tonight. Will you do it?" In our case, I spray the tub and hand him the cloth. Meeting him halfway just makes it easier.
We are slowly getting around to our children "helping." I have to resist the urge to do everything myself because this is how I was raised. As a child, when I cleaned it was never good enough. My mom made this perfectly clear. I understand her more now, because honestly, when I am cleaning, I just want to be done with it. And children are much slower. But I have to step back and let them do things in their own way with a little direction.
As I often say around here, it takes a tremendous amount of effort to keep my home its current state of relative disarray and "good enough" cleanliness, i.e. if I didn't clean and organize constantly, it would be a total trainwreck in here. For this reason, I understand why families have cleaners, but honestly, they would need to come bi-weekly to make a dent around here. Maybe we are just filthy people, but bi-monthly or once a month wouldn't really make that much of a difference. I would still have to clean daily.
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Maybe the process is to get comfortable with things being less clean, especially since you are talking about cleanliness and not clutter/tidying. It may be something I am reading too much into, but your comment about the clean house bringing you joy makes me wonder about that.
A clean house brings you joy. Why? In what ways does having the house not clean to the same standard that you can reasonably accomplish not satisfy you? How are you defining cleanliness anyway?
Think about what you are experiencing as clean. Is it the smell of cleaning chemicals? Is it a shininess or polished look on floors, counters or windows? Is it a noticeable different in air quality that you are breathing? How are your senses telling you what clean is? Why do these things bring you joy? What is the sense of self that it taps into (I am doing a good job as an adult/wife/parent/etc.)? Is it actually joy or is it relief (one less thing to do that you don't have to do that you hate doing)?
How can you re-frame your state of mind so that you can experience the same happiness without the added cleaning of a professional? Or at least to accept a standard that can be accomplished with less frequent use of a professional cleaner (so reduce how often). Or figure out what component you can do (of the many parts of cleaning) that can replace the feeling you are seeking.
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Obviously we all have our 'weaknesses' but the goal is to get rid of those and take care of our own business, that is why we come to this forum.
Nope, not me. My goal is to spend more time doing what I want to do. So if it makes sense for me to hire out some of the chores, then I do it. And I make sure to enjoy the 1/2 day per week that I otherwise would spend cleaning. I don't get a lot of time during the week to myself, so my weekends are precious to me.
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Obviously we all have our 'weaknesses' but the goal is to get rid of those and take care of our own business, that is why we come to this forum.
Nope, not me. My goal is to spend more time doing what I want to do. So if it makes sense for me to hire out some of the chores, then I do it. And I make sure to enjoy the 1/2 day per week that I otherwise would spend cleaning. I don't get a lot of time during the week to myself, so my weekends are precious to me.
same here. that's why you do it everyday before bed. less clutter and dirt to sit around during the week. and why would it take a half day to clean?
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This is a hillarious thread v strong feelings obviously.
how big is your house? McMansions obviously need a lot of time to clean. Whenever people comment on the smallness of my house( 3bed 2bath is apparently small) I reply that the biggest advantage is that it is easy to clean and there is no space for clutter.
I like a nice, neat and well irganized space. Obviously it is only a dream w kids around, but w some effrt we can keep a minimal standard.
Ii
I clean 2x a week, about 1 hr = cardio exercise.
Declutter regularly= a bit of zen and/or releasing tension.
Win win.
Hubby is the gardener and pool boy and t occadional floor cleaner. I
Iii
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Not sure what your cleaning requires, but since you're good at decluttering (picking stuff off the floor?), getting a robotic vacuum might be worth the investment. I have a Neato XV-21 and it's the best thing I've ever bought-- got it for a deal for around $300 over two years ago and refurbs can be found for cheaper. Our cats are constantly scattering litter everywhere and I can't stand seeing visible dirt on the floor. My daily routine coming home used to be vacuuming or sweeping but now I only do "deep cleaning" with the normal vacuum a few times a year, supplemented with quick sweeping in corners or where the Neato can't reach, like the rug edges. The $50 batteries seem to last about a year before I start getting constant battery errors, but I find that I can extend the life by doing a hard reset (unscrewing the back and unplugging the battery).
If your major headache is constant floor-cleaning, I'd really look into a robotic vacuum. Yes, you need to make an initial investment, but it's 2-3 months of cleaning fees for you? Personally I love the Neato because it is very methodical and maps out the room, heading back to the charger if it runs out of battery and continuing where it left off. It also doesn't fall off the stairs and you can "wall" off areas with the included magnetic strip. It's really so amazing to start it, leave home, and come back to a freshly cleaned floor.
If you have other things that need to be cleaned, you could cut back to twice a year paid deep cleaning like someone suggested :)
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If you are working a full-time professional job isn't the time-savings of the professional cleaner worth it? If it takes me 4 hours per month to clean everything (an underestimate), but I earn $20/hr+, shouldn't I be willing to pay someone else less than $80/month to do the cleaning for me? I personally would rather spend more time at my job (delaying FIRE) than cleaning. Plenty of MMM people seem to think the time-savings of commuting is worth paying more to live closer to their job, what about the time-savings of not doing cleaning yourself?
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When I worked f.t. I had a cleaner once a month. I know what you mean about coming home to the whole house clean at once. Also that would be a good time to have company for dinner without so much work. I would just cut it back to 1x/month and not worry about it. Now that I am semi-retired I have a robotic vacuum and mopper and I love them.
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
I dunno, I think that some types of clothing are not supposed to be washed, and I don't have the ability to dry clean at home. It's been a couple of decades since I've been required to wear that kind of clothing. Perhaps my Navy dress uniform was the last.
I have, in my family, more than one person who cleans houses for a living. Plus people who work as a cook at the elementary school. Let's add auto mechanics, bankers (you can keep your money under your mattress, no?) How about the guy who works at the grocery store, or picks the strawberries?
There is no shame in manual labor. People have been trading labor for money for a long time. When you appoint a "shame" in hiring someone to do something for you, you de facto assign a "shame" to people who do the work, no?
No. Why not have a cook, many already eat out a good deal? Why not automate and hire out all parts of our lives? Because it makes us weak, and eventually unappreciative; and yes if I had the time to, I would pick my own strawberries and grow many more fruits and vegetables(which I will when I FIRE). The difference is most people in the Western world have the time and ability to do their own housekeeping. It is kind of a sliding scale; elderly or disabled go ahead and hire out house cleaning; mountain cabin 200 mi away that has weekly rentals, go ahead. On the road or in another city and don't have time/facilities to prepare your own food or fix your broken car; buy it prepared/get someone to fix. There is a time and place for these things; normal everyday living is not one of them.
Obviously we all have our 'weaknesses' but the goal is to get rid of those and take care of our own business, that is why we come to this forum.
It's a sliding scale, really.
Growing your own/ cooking from scratch -> buying your groceries and cooking from scratch -> buying prepared foods and heating them up -> getting takeout -> eating at a restaurant -> having a personal chef -> having a live in chef
Having two SAHPs -> Having one SAHP -> Having one SAHP but using PT childcare -> Having two working parents and using daycare -> Having 2 WP and a full-time nanny -> having 2 WP and a live-in nanny
Cleaning your own house all the time -> using a service a couple of times a year for "deep cleaning" -> using a service monthly or 2x a month -> having a livev-in cleaning person
Building and doing all maintenance on your car -> doing serious maintenance on your own car (rebuilding an engine) -> doing routine maintenance on your own car (changing fluids, rotating tires) -> outsourcing all maintenance and cleaning on your car
Building your own house from scratch -> using contractors to build your house but act as gen contractor -> doing all of your own home maintenance and improvements (building cabinets, drywall, roofing) -> hiring out major improvements (roofing, HVAC) but doing minor home repairs -> attempting all repairs yourself before you hire someone else -> Call the plumber immediately (or whatever)
Being retired -> telecommuting -> walking to work -> biking to work -> take public transit (aka, no car in any of those first ones) -> riding a motorcycle to work -> combo car/ or bike to work -> carpooling -> driving a compact car to work -> driving a mid-sized car to work -> driving a big gas guzzler to work -> driving 2 hours each way to work
Shearing your own sheep for wool -> Spinning your own yarn from wool you buy -> buying yarn to knit a sweater as a gift -> buying a sweater as a gift
"Vacationing in your backyard" (or: not needing to "get away" or "See the world") -> taking trips camping and roughing it -> camping in a campground with running water -> using a pop-up trailer, 5th wheel, camping van, etc. -> staying in a hotel because you like a roof -> getting a suite so you have more space -> renting a condo so you can cook! -> taking a train -> flying -> going somewhere exotic because, Travel! It's ok to spend on Travel! -> full on fancy-pants vacation
It is a sliding scale for sure, where do put the scale? The far left is simply out of reach for most Americans will small children and full time jobs, if you are asking for the far left in every category.
The average American worker works 46.7 hours per week, up from 39.7 hours in 1990. An extra 7 hours per week, per person. Where does this 7 hours come from? Probably a combination of things, #1 being sleep.
I really have a hard time comparing life as a kid and life now. I mean, no we never had a cleaning person, we were poor. When my grandmother died, we cleaned my grandfather's house for him. But then again, my mother did not work outside of the house until I was 12, and even then, it was 2 days a week.
I prioritize shopping for good prices, cooking from scratch, helping my kid with his homework, helping the toddler with his lego obsession, cleaning up barf (it's been a rough winter), exercise and sleep (outside of my work day, which is 10 hours a day when you count "door to door", which means drop off and pick up).
Those don't have to be your priorities.
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This might earn me some face punches, but I'll fess up to my solution to this anyway.... robots! Yes, not only am I a card-carrying member of the aristocracy, it's the tech-savvy aristocracy of the future.
I work 65 hours a week. My husband works around 40. If I don't clean the house, it doesn't get done. Stress and marital discord ensue...
We love our "robot army." Total marriage saver. We own:
A Neato vaccuum
A Scooba to mop kitchen and bathroom tile
A Mint robot to damp dust the hardwood floors
A litterbot to change the cat litter
A "Le Bistro" cat feeder to feed the cats when I work late
I'm waiting for the day they come out with one that does toilets.
Was it expensive? Yeah. Has it paid for itself and then some? Hell, yeah. Robots are waaaay cheaper than divorce. Or hired help for that matter. :)
The irony of this is that I'm one of those weirdos who actually enjoys cleaning (preferably "dance-cleaning" to a loud upbeat soundtrack). I just am not willing to prioritize it over other stuff like spending time with friends and family.
Even with the robots, on occasion I still do have to dust, clean windows, mirrors, the fridge, etc.... but I'd guess the bots cut my working-after-work time down by around two thirds. Plus, my husband thinks it's fun to run the bots, so I get more help all around. Win win!
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Obviously we all have our 'weaknesses' but the goal is to get rid of those and take care of our own business, that is why we come to this forum.
Nope, not me. My goal is to spend more time doing what I want to do. So if it makes sense for me to hire out some of the chores, then I do it. And I make sure to enjoy the 1/2 day per week that I otherwise would spend cleaning. I don't get a lot of time during the week to myself, so my weekends are precious to me.
same here. that's why you do it everyday before bed. less clutter and dirt to sit around during the week. and why would it take a half day to clean?
in my case because I don't get time before bed. From the minute I get home with the kids, it's cooking, dishes, baths, homework...and 9 days out of 10, I fall asleep before my toddler. You can imagine what a disaster the house is when my spouse is out of town.
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When I worked f.t. I had a cleaner once a month. I know what you mean about coming home to the whole house clean at once. Also that would be a good time to have company for dinner without so much work. I would just cut it back to 1x/month and not worry about it. Now that I am semi-retired I have a robotic vacuum and mopper and I love them.
This opens up another interesting topic. My husband and I are pretty social animals. Stomach flu aside (we had to cancel a bunch of social things at our house since November because of it) - there is that extra work of having people over.
I'm not a clean freak by any means. But I was recently thinking about "the cooking" part of socializing. I do all of the cooking, and I spend many many hours on the weekend, cooking and doing prep for the week. (You know, to save money, wash your own lettuce, peel your own carrots). All of this bulk cooking lasts a few days at best. If I have to cook for another 4-6 people -it's extra work. So when my husband asks if we are going to have people over, I kind of give him the blank stare because *I* am the one who ends up doing the cooking. "What can I do to help?" Order pizza.
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However, one thing that I'd like to note that I read today is this:
http://notesfromthefrugaltrenches.com/2016/01/13/fifteen-minute-tidy-up-sessions-have-changed-our-lives-for-the-better/
It's not exactly "cleaning" (and you said you don't mind tidying so much) but you could make similarities. Again, it depends on the age of your children. We are working hard to encourage our children to learn to be tidy (cleaning toys, loading the dishwasher, clothes in the hamper, shoes on the shelf). You could approach cleaning in the same way.
Sunday night, wipe down the kitchen after putting all the leftovers in the fridge.
Tuesday: vacuum all rooms
Wednesday: Mop floors
Thursday: Dust
Saturday: clean the bathroom
I'm guessing this might be "flylady-ish", but I'm not sure.
The struggle that we have, I think, is lack of sleep and kids - it's bad enough to constantly remind them to ... (fill in the blank - brush teeth, get dressed, read, do homework for the big kid, and just deal with the toddler who needs nearly constant attention) - adding cleaning on top of that - a million other things to remind them to do - seems painful. I feel like a nag, and I tell you, I nag people all day at work too.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values. If you value time with the family more than cleaning and can afford it, go for it. If having cleaners avoids marital strife and you can afford it, go for it. If knowing that the cleaners are coming is the only thing that gets your spouse to pick the damn place up and you can afford it, then go for it.
(Yes, I am projecting my own situation onto the OP question here!) :)
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Set Pandora to Broadway Show Tunes, set a timer to 30 minutes, and run around cleaning. It is fantastic exercise.
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Cleaning services are truly a wonderful thing, and depending on how crazy your life is, being pampered that way might be completely worth the price. $75 every two weeks is actually a pretty good deal.
However, just consider that part of the reason we don't like to clean is that we don't actually know how to do it properly. For me, the Clean Team "Speed Cleaning" books were a revelation. Cleaning went from sucking away entire weekends to a couple of hours on a weekend morning. And I discovered that I actually like to clean, when I have the right tools and do it the right way (and to the right music).
Love that list of robotic helpers. I guess over several years they would win out over the cost of a cleaning service, but maybe not by much. I don't suppose you've totalled up the cost of all those gadgets and figured out the annual amortized expense, given their expected lifespans? I'm quite tempted by some of them myself. If nothing else, they would double as entertainment for the cats.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
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A Mint robot to damp dust the hardwood floors
A litterbot to change the cat litter
I need to look into the Mint! I never mop (we're a no-shoes home), and just wipe down any visible stuff on the floor. I quickly looked into it and it sounds awesome. But... acquiring more stuff goes against my values and I need to evaluate the benefits vs adding another thing to my house.
We had a Litter Robot until our girl cat stopped using it. It was awesome until then. At least I bought it used and sold it without much of a loss.
How I love living in this century, and having these options!
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Love that list of robotic helpers. I guess over several years they would win out over the cost of a cleaning service, but maybe not by much. I don't suppose you've totalled up the cost of all those gadgets and figured out the annual amortized expense, given their expected lifespans? I'm quite tempted by some of them myself. If nothing else, they would double as entertainment for the cats.
I did do this before buying so can questimate. All were purchased in Sept 2013 except for Le Bistro, who has been faithfully serving our cats for at least 6 years, maybe 8. All still going strong.
Neato botvac signature series (most expensive model at time)- purchased on sale with an additional coupon, about $750
Mint - purchased last year's floor model - around $150
Litterbot II- purchased brand new best model - around $300ish? maybe as high as $400 (my favorite - worth EVERY penny!!)
Scooba - purchased second hand on eBay for about $400 because the seller wanted the newer model
Le Bistro - fuzzy recollections here... prob between $100-$200
Maintenance costs since: 1 replacement battery for Neato ($50). Replacement filters for Neato about one per 6 months (around $15 for a 4 pack). Batteries for Le Bistro (about $10/year max). So let's say we pay $50 per year.
Savings because of robots: No cat sitters. Ever. We used to pay at least $400 twice per year for this (because I have this irrational thing I need to get over where I can't stand to ask my friends to clean up my cat litter even though I gladly do it for them). We also bought the Neato instead of an actual upright vacuum, so at least $150 saved there?
Okay, so this means I spent as much as $1900 total over 29 months and counting, or about $836 per year once maintenance is included. Costs goes down every year they last. By the way, you all can do better than this now by buying used because the technology has come far enough that last year's models are fantastic.
If you are paying $75 every two weeks for a cleaning service, that's $1950 per year, so I have you beat BUT you get toilets, mirrors, windows, etc with all that. I don't. Basically I use the bots as my "helpers" so that I can clean the house to ready-for-sleepover-guests mode in a couple of hours instead of most of a day. Or I can vacuum while cooking, for example. It feels like a superpower. :)
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
That said, I third the suggestion that the OP's children should be participating in the cleaning.
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A Mint robot to damp dust the hardwood floors
A litterbot to change the cat litter
I need to look into the Mint!
I think it is called Braava now because the Roomba people bought out the mint company.
And yeah, mindful spending that actually enriches happiness... I'm with you folks. That's why I'm here. If there were such a thing as a unit of happiness I would want to maximize those units per dollar earned, dollar spent, dollar saved, etc. Efficiency in money-management with the goal of building happiness as wealth. The Bhutan of personal finance.
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OP,
Do what you feel works best for you....although I'm with the people that question DH buying Jeep parts etc at will.
I'm an indifferent housekeeper at best. But I find really loud music and a lot of caffeine helps...
To all you people with robots: what happens if a (few) 50lb dogs jump on them...instant yard art?
I looked at the one Costco had on sale over Xmas. I put it in the cart until I turned over the floor model and inspected the collection bin: it was the size of a sandwich baggie.
Obviously meant for city folk: one piece of hay and small chunk of dog toy 'stuffing' would kill the little bastard.
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To all you people with robots: what happens if a (few) 50lb dogs jump on them...instant yard art?
I looked at the one Costco had on sale over Xmas. I put it in the cart until I turned over the floor model and inspected the collection bin: it was the size of a sandwich baggie.
Obviously meant for city folk: one piece of hay and small chunk of dog toy 'stuffing' would kill the little bastard.
Sounds like you might be more in need of a shop vac! I generally keep a very clean house and I am simply amazed that the bin is filled up every time, especially if it goes over the wool rug. How does the rug shed that much?!
The Neato might survive the dog jumps (it looks sturdy enough) but it's expensive enough that I might not risk it :)
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OP,
Do what you feel works best for you....although I'm with the people that question DH buying Jeep parts etc at will.
I'm an indifferent housekeeper at best. But I find really loud music and a lot of caffeine helps...
To all you people with robots: what happens if a (few) 50lb dogs jump on them...instant yard art?
I looked at the one Costco had on sale over Xmas. I put it in the cart until I turned over the floor model and inspected the collection bin: it was the size of a sandwich baggie.
Obviously meant for city folk: one piece of hay and small chunk of dog toy 'stuffing' would kill the little bastard.
Not a city folk here and my new Roomba (gift from parents, "we have to take these damn minimum distributions and so we figured we'd share a little") works just fine.
I don't use it in the (150-170 pound) dogs' room, or not yet. But ours have stepped on it going by the charger, to no noticeable ill effects. It ignores large black oak leaves and nails on the floor (though it tends to push them around) , so it would probably ignore your hay. When it fills up, it just goes back to its charger, but it did a good 800 square feet of not-swept-since-thanksgiving (ahem), ground-in rural, our-place-has-no-pavement dirt before it fillled. It also picks up the dried mud cracked out of work boot tread. We don't do stuffed toys with our dogs for reasons that are perhaps obvious given their size.
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To all you people with robots: what happens if a (few) 50lb dogs jump on them...instant yard art?
Obviously meant for city folk: one piece of hay and small chunk of dog toy 'stuffing' would kill the little bastard.
I have a roomba. It moves slower and is sturdier than a lot of people think. Some dogs figure out how not to get bumped into & otherwise aren't really interested in chasing/pouncing. For some dogs, you basically can't run it when they are in the same room. I don't think a one time pounce or "attack" would damage the robot, but I wouldn't let it be habitual.
My dog just had a playmate come over (65-70 lb adolescent retriever) and the other dog pawed/pressed the button to turn the roomba on without any direction or encouragement when they were in the room where it was charging. It was pretty funny. Dog and roomba are fine.
When the bin is full, the roomba goes back to dock, even if it hasn't cleaned "everywhere." I am amazed how much dirt and pet hair it CAN take though. But I wouldn't let it in toy stuffing or anything!
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A Roomba really is fantastic, and if your vacuum is already broken it's not a big marginal cost. Very helpful when teaching a baby to eat. It has a bit of a hard time getting thread out of the carpet when my wife sews, but I'm OK with that.
I wish there were such a thing as a stairs Roomba.
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So many great replies, thank you! One idea that has grabbed my attention is using house cleaning as a work out. I am a runner currently sidelined with plantar fasciitis so struggling to come up with non impact ways to work out. I mean can this really be done as a work out? I've never felt winded while cleaning but if there are ways to do it then I might be game.
In response to some of the comments... my kids are 10 and 6 so, yes, they can help. It just, well, it sucks to nag them about one more thing. I know that sounds lame. They do already help by doing their laundry, taking out trash, packing lunches and keeping rooms cleaned up.
I hate cleaning because I don't have great attention to detail so when I'm done it never looks as good as when the cleaners do it. I do like the concept of being able to mentally change my outlook on this as really this applies to some many things in life and is a worthwhile pursuit. I have that speed cleaning book mentioned and I just never got it down, it wasn't intuitive to me. In fairness I probably didn't give it a long enough period to learn the techniques.
The hiring of cleaners is definitely in the category cheaper than divorce. In our marriage we do have an uneven split of household duties but I've come to accept that as part of the package. And most of these duties I don't mind- cooking, shopping, tidying are things that come easy for me (unlike the cleaning!). Interestingly enough when we saw a marriage counselor she suggested we get a house cleaner to take this part of the discord off the table.
We got a roomba earlier this year as this was a requirement of mine for agreeing to get a dog.... and it does really help a lot. I rarely have to get the big vacuum out.
I'm leaning toward trying to switch to once a month cleaning unless I can figure out how to get a work out of the deal. Our house is 1300 sf, 3 bed, 1.5 baths without a lot of clutter so I don't think it should take that long. The cleaning team of 2 people is in and out in about 1 hour maybe?
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So many great replies, thank you! One idea that has grabbed my attention is using house cleaning as a work out. I am a runner currently sidelined with plantar fasciitis so struggling to come up with non impact ways to work out. I mean can this really be done as a work out? I've never felt winded while cleaning but if there are ways to do it then I might be game.
In response to some of the comments... my kids are 10 and 6 so, yes, they can help. It just, well, it sucks to nag them about one more thing. I know that sounds lame. They do already help by doing their laundry, taking out trash, packing lunches and keeping rooms cleaned up.
I hate cleaning because I don't have great attention to detail so when I'm done it never looks as good as when the cleaners do it. I do like the concept of being able to mentally change my outlook on this as really this applies to some many things in life and is a worthwhile pursuit. I have that speed cleaning book mentioned and I just never got it down, it wasn't intuitive to me. In fairness I probably didn't give it a long enough period to learn the techniques.
The hiring of cleaners is definitely in the category cheaper than divorce. In our marriage we do have an uneven split of household duties but I've come to accept that as part of the package. And most of these duties I don't mind- cooking, shopping, tidying are things that come easy for me (unlike the cleaning!). Interestingly enough when we saw a marriage counselor she suggested we get a house cleaner to take this part of the discord off the table.
We got a roomba earlier this year as this was a requirement of mine for agreeing to get a dog.... and it does really help a lot. I rarely have to get the big vacuum out.
I'm leaning toward trying to switch to once a month cleaning unless I can figure out how to get a work out of the deal. Our house is 1300 sf, 3 bed, 1.5 baths without a lot of clutter so I don't think it should take that long. The cleaning team of 2 people is in and out in about 1 hour maybe?
I can get sweaty doing house cleaning for a while, especially in the summer, but to get huffy you have to scrub something with your hands, like the floor, tub or walls.
Something I have noticed when I have been somewhere where there has been a cleaner is that they do not get behind couches or dust things that are up high, etc. So really those hair and dust balls are still there giving your family allergy problems unless you personally take care of it.
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So many great replies, thank you! One idea that has grabbed my attention is using house cleaning as a work out. I am a runner currently sidelined with plantar fasciitis so struggling to come up with non impact ways to work out. I mean can this really be done as a work out? I've never felt winded while cleaning but if there are ways to do it then I might be game.
This is what I often do when painting or cleaning. I put on the music I normally run to and move in time to it without skipping any beats... probably looks ridiculous but who the hell cares?! I have fun, the house gets clean faster, and my heart rate is raised for a couple of hours. I wouldn't say I get winded (I sing along), but I definitely get some low impact aerobic exercise. Give it a shot! The kids should love it. You could also race them for some kind of reward.
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Our house is about your size, 1500sq ft. If I'm not interrupted, I can vaccuum/sweep/dust all rooms, and do the two bathrooms in 2 hours. It's not a real workout, but if you are moving quickly you should burn some calories.
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We have 4 dogs and they avoid the robots we have. The roomba does have a small dirt holder but I set an alarm for 15 minutes and then empty it. I have an 80lb dog that is a shedding machine. They have improved the Mint and it was bought out. It now has a reservoir of water so it cleans better. My first Mint lasted 2 years and cost $130.00 so I got much value from it. My first Mint did all the sweeping and mopping. Now that I bought a roomba I will only use the MInt for mopping. I use both once/week. I would reduce cleaners to 1x/month and get a couple of robots.
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Something I have noticed when I have been somewhere where there has been a cleaner is that they do not get behind couches or dust things that are up high, etc. So really those hair and dust balls are still there giving your family allergy problems unless you personally take care of it.
I guess this is my issue - that I'm just not convinced that cleaners do the most annoying aspects of cleaning like baseboards, etc., unless you specify deep cleaning, right? And wouldn't the deep cleaning cost more? The vacuuming, the mopping, the wiping of the counters, light dusting - that's the stuff I have no problem doing. It's the damned nooks and crannies that kill me. I love our older home with period touches, but our baseboards are a royal pain in the ass to clean. Usually I just let them stay semi-dirty until I get around to cleaning them every couple of months. It doesn't affect our quality of life to have non-pristine baseboards.
Our biggest problem with cleaning is the clutter. I often see people on here talk about they have a smaller house and thus have less clutter, but in our case it works the opposite; because we have a smaller home where we have less storage and place to put things, most of our surfaces have things on them. I find it impossible to imagine that a cleaner would lift up everything and clean underneath. I don't blame them! I guess we could get rid of all of our clutter, but lots of it is stuff that we actually use on a daily basis. That's why it's there in the first place.
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Something I have noticed when I have been somewhere where there has been a cleaner is that they do not get behind couches or dust things that are up high, etc. So really those hair and dust balls are still there giving your family allergy problems unless you personally take care of it.
I guess this is my issue - that I'm just not convinced that cleaners do the most annoying aspects of cleaning like baseboards, etc., unless you specify deep cleaning, right? And wouldn't the deep cleaning cost more? The vacuuming, the mopping, the wiping of the counters, light dusting - that's the stuff I have no problem doing. It's the damned nooks and crannies that kill me. I love our older home with period touches, but our baseboards are a royal pain in the ass to clean. Usually I just let them stay semi-dirty until I get around to cleaning them every couple of months. It doesn't affect our quality of life to have non-pristine baseboards.
Our biggest problem with cleaning is the clutter. I often see people on here talk about they have a smaller house and thus have less clutter, but in our case it works the opposite; because we have a smaller home where we have less storage and place to put things, most of our surfaces have things on them. I find it impossible to imagine that a cleaner would lift up everything and clean underneath. I don't blame them! I guess we could get rid of all of our clutter, but lots of it is stuff that we actually use on a daily basis. That's why it's there in the first place.
We waited to get a cleaner till we found a friend who liked hers. I have to admit, they don't do baseboards. But they do scrub the fridge inside and out, and the microwave, toaster oven, etc.
They don't move the couch and vacuum under it.
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Our biggest problem with cleaning is the clutter. I often see people on here talk about they have a smaller house and thus have less clutter, but in our case it works the opposite; because we have a smaller home where we have less storage and place to put things, most of our surfaces have things on them. I find it impossible to imagine that a cleaner would lift up everything and clean underneath. I don't blame them! I guess we could get rid of all of our clutter, but lots of it is stuff that we actually use on a daily basis. That's why it's there in the first place.
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We downsized from 2400 to 1300 sf when we moved into this house 8 months ago. Because the combination of adequate storage and clutter free surfaces was important to me, we installed cabinets by the fireplace which store kids games, dvd's and books. I also hung the Trost shoe storage bins from Ikea with a piece of wood on top to have a place for magazines, paperwork. This in essence serves as the place I can put my husbands "stuff" he leaves all over. Plus I keep the laptop and phone charging stuff in this area. It's like this:
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
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Something I have noticed when I have been somewhere where there has been a cleaner is that they do not get behind couches or dust things that are up high, etc. So really those hair and dust balls are still there giving your family allergy problems unless you personally take care of it.
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I haven't really had an issue with this, with the exception of under the bed. Granted they do not clean the inside of the fridge, the screen doors or baseboards. Keeping up on those is another reason why I don't want to also deal with the more routine cleaning. Maybe I need to consider changing to once a month and having the focus be more on these areas since the more routine cleaning is actually easier (despise it though I may). I'd probably need to find somebody else to do this.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
+1, I was going to suggest we move this to the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
You conveniently chopped off my post to include only the part that "proves" the point you want to make. Fairly dishonest.
Not to mention that "everyone" is not suggesting the same thing. Quite a few peopke (including me, though you'd never know it from the editing you did to my quote) are pointing out that she has kids who should be participating in the cleaning, which would eliminate the need for a cleaner. I personally do not have kids, which is why I find having a cleaner come in once a month good for me.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
You conveniently chopped off my post to include only the part that "proves" the point you want to make. Fairly dishonest.
Not to mention that "everyone" is not suggesting the same thing. Quite a few peopke (including me, though you'd never know it from the editing you did to my quote) are pointing out that she has kids who should be participating in the cleaning, which would eliminate the need for a cleaner. I personally do not have kids, which is why I find having a cleaner come in once a month good for me.
Next time there's a travel thread, where people discuss ways to get cheaper exotic travel, and lots of people are saying that it's worth spending money to travel for the experiences, even if it delays FI, I may just make sure to rag on people for "enabling". I mean, of course, your life should be so relaxing that you don't *need* to travel. Learn how to cook exotic food, and read a book from the library, for crying out loud! Why would you spend your money on something so trivial.
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This isn't to instigate... I'm just genuinely curious... How many of the people here who are critical of this thread and posting that all domestic work should be 100% DIY are women with young children who hold full-time or overtime hours at their jobs?
I may be way off here, but I'm guessing that most of those views come from people who either do not work full time, or do not have partners who work full time, or do not have to care for other family members while working.
If I'm dead wrong and there is someone out there doing the lion's share of the work for a family of 4 while holding a professional job who still is anti-robot/anti-help enough to be posting here, let me just drop to my knees right now. (We'renotworthywe'renotworthy!)
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
You conveniently chopped off my post to include only the part that "proves" the point you want to make. Fairly dishonest.
Not to mention that "everyone" is not suggesting the same thing. Quite a few peopke (including me, though you'd never know it from the editing you did to my quote) are pointing out that she has kids who should be participating in the cleaning, which would eliminate the need for a cleaner. I personally do not have kids, which is why I find having a cleaner come in once a month good for me.
Next time there's a travel thread, where people discuss ways to get cheaper exotic travel, and lots of people are saying that it's worth spending money to travel for the experiences, even if it delays FI, I may just make sure to rag on people for "enabling". I mean, of course, your life should be so relaxing that you don't *need* to travel. Learn how to cook exotic food, and read a book from the library, for crying out loud! Why would you spend your money on something so trivial.
Don't forget to point out that traveling by plane, car, etc. is just another version of bedpan and catheter. If a Mustachian wants to travel, the only legitimate way is to ride a bike or row a boat yourself.
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I would ask at least the older child if they would like to do the cleaning in return for the money the housecleaner was getting. Keep the money in the family, get the cleaning done by the kid(s) in a way that they don't resent.
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Ultimately the cleaner decision is up to you and your husband, but I thought I'd share some perspective from the "messy" half of a relationship. My husband likes things to be REALLY clean/tidy. I have a few things that bug me and that I stay on top of, but fundamentally I have definite sloblike tendencies. We had a lot of tension around cleaning/tidying in our relationship until at some point it clicked with me that doing "extra" (to me) cleaning was a pretty meaningful way of saying "I love you" to my husband. As in, if he's having a busy week at work and I step in and keep on top of cleaning the kitchen (normally his task), he is SUPER appreciative. Way more appreciative than of any other "nice" things I've tried to do for him during busy/stressful times. The result is that I actually now HAVE gotten into the habit of doing certain chores that I used not to do, I'm better about tidying up, and we definitely have fewer arguments centered around cleaning. And cleaning has come to feel like a (somewhat) loving action to me, which makes it more pleasurable. I'm not going to say that I love every minute of it and our home is not sparkling, but that shift in my attitude has (I think) helped a lot in creating a situation that we are mostly happy/content with.
So I guess maybe instead of trying to get your husband to do more, make sure you are really big with your display of appreciation whenever he does help out, even if it seems like something minor that he should have been doing anyway. If he's like me, he probably didn't grow up in a super tidy environment and isn't used to the idea of having regular cleaning chores (which is kind of what's needed to keep a place clean) so, yeah, he may be at sort of the toddler/young kid stage of the game and thus really benefit from that positive encouragement.
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Something I have noticed when I have been somewhere where there has been a cleaner is that they do not get behind couches or dust things that are up high, etc. So really those hair and dust balls are still there giving your family allergy problems unless you personally take care of it.
I guess this is my issue - that I'm just not convinced that cleaners do the most annoying aspects of cleaning like baseboards, etc., unless you specify deep cleaning, right? And wouldn't the deep cleaning cost more? The vacuuming, the mopping, the wiping of the counters, light dusting - that's the stuff I have no problem doing. It's the damned nooks and crannies that kill me. I love our older home with period touches, but our baseboards are a royal pain in the ass to clean. Usually I just let them stay semi-dirty until I get around to cleaning them every couple of months. It doesn't affect our quality of life to have non-pristine baseboards.
Our biggest problem with cleaning is the clutter. I often see people on here talk about they have a smaller house and thus have less clutter, but in our case it works the opposite; because we have a smaller home where we have less storage and place to put things, most of our surfaces have things on them. I find it impossible to imagine that a cleaner would lift up everything and clean underneath. I don't blame them! I guess we could get rid of all of our clutter, but lots of it is stuff that we actually use on a daily basis. That's why it's there in the first place.
The housecleaners in my area are wonderful. My current housecleaner has been with me for about 3 years now. She and her team (4-6 people) come in, speed clean through 4 floors of my house and are done in one hour. The owner is the head cleaner and she's a true american success story, having come to America when she turned 18. She takes great pride in her cleaning. Some days I come home and have to adjust my furniture to move it back into position. It used to bug me that they didn't put everything exactly back, but I've come to realize that they do this on purpose so I know when they move the couch and wash the baseboards behind it. When the dust the paintings and picture frames, I have to go around and straighten the paintings. As with most long-term relationships, everyone has quirks and you learn to appreciate them.
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This isn't to instigate... I'm just genuinely curious... How many of the people here who are critical of this thread and posting that all domestic work should be 100% DIY are women with young children who hold full-time or overtime hours at their jobs?
Why would they have to be women? If a man wants to do all the housework himself, that's great! ;) As for me, I don't have kids yet but I agree with the other big cleaner in this thread - my house is small (850 sq ft) and easy to clean. I'm sure when I get kids, it'll be harder than my current hour or so a week cleaning, but I don't think I'm going to go out and hire someone.
My mom used to be a housecleaner and I helped her when I was a kid, so I guess I just don't understand the hatred of cleaning. It's fun to see things go from dirty to clean imo. If you absolutely hate it more than working overtime, I don't see the problem with hiring a cleaner, but as with most things in life, once you think of them less as a chore and more as a ritual, it makes it easier to do happily.
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This isn't to instigate... I'm just genuinely curious... How many of the people here who are critical of this thread and posting that all domestic work should be 100% DIY are women with young children who hold full-time or overtime hours at their jobs?
I may be way off here, but I'm guessing that most of those views come from people who either do not work full time, or do not have partners who work full time, or do not have to care for other family members while working.
If I'm dead wrong and there is someone out there doing the lion's share of the work for a family of 4 while holding a professional job who still is anti-robot/anti-help enough to be posting here, let me just drop to my knees right now. (We'renotworthywe'renotworthy!)
I'll take the bait. Since you asked: I am a women, I work full-time (am I not sure what entails a "professional" job but if you are referring to a certain level of awesomeness I am sure I make the cut;)), I have two kids (6&2), I do 95% of the cooking/cleaning (on rare occasion DH has been known to make mushy pasta and put a dish in the dishwasher), I also have a fun side gig, and do a good chunk of volunteer work. DH works at minimum 50 hours/week, so that's one of the reasons why I end up doing all this shit.
For ME, I am anti-cleaner for a number of reasons:
-Like the OP, I am a champion tidier and a sucky cleaner. However, IMO if things are tidy you are really 80% done and the cleaning part doesn't/shouldn't take that long. On a weekly basis I really only do: floors, counters, laundry. Dusting and bathrooms are probably more of a bi-weekly occurrence. Occasionally I do a deep clean of a single room, so I don't have to do them all at one time in "spring cleaning" sort of fashion. Perhaps this isn't up to the cleaning standards of the masses, but my house at least looks cleaner than most because it is extremely tidy.
-Like other people have mentioned I try to view cleaning as exercise. Last week I moved all the furniture in our bedroom to vacuum and dust behind. Our bed is solid wood and has six drawers underneath the platform.....you bet I was sweating!
-I want our kids to see me clean/help me clean. Honestly, I don't understand this whole "I pay someone to clean so I have more spend time with my kids" thing. Can't you spend time with your kids while you clean? Must every parental moment these days be a "fun" moment? I do almost all of the cleaning on Saturdays. DH is at work all day Saturday, so the kids are spending quality time with just me. Sometimes they want to "help" me clean (I never discourage this), sometimes they want to watch, and sometimes they just want to stay out of the way. I consider it one of my parental duties to teach them the mechanism by which a house becomes clean.
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Yes, I have a house cleaner. Every other week, $75. As I work to become more frugal and do more on my own AND try to convince my DH to get on board by my example, I know I should cut this.
But it's so hard.... just a second while I pull on my complainy-pants and list why it's so hard for me.
1) I despise cleaning. I'm a champion tidier but real cleaning makes me angry.
2) I'm a terrible cleaner as I'm pretty impatient by nature.
3) I work 32 hours outside the home plus carry almost all the household responsibilities (groceries, meal prep, daily clean up, kid activities, general household management) so I really don't have much extra time.
4) My DH is not on board with a frugal lifestyle. So while I might work so hard to save $100, he'll go out and blow it some accessory for his fancy Jeep Wrangler. Maddening...!
5) We have lots of other low hanging fruit to address, like home improvement spends, groceries, and buying of "stuff". And I am working on those but I don't have them dialed in by any means.
I have gone for periods without a cleaner before and I always come crawling back. A clean house brings me joy:) I've tried the speed cleaning method but was not successful with it. I've tried a little bit at a time but I hate that it never feels clean at the same time. Getting my husband to help more will not be realistic. I love him dearly but he works a TON and a clean house is not a priority to him so it's just not going to happen.
Ok so now that I've vomited all that up...... Do you some advice for me to just make it happen? Make the process easier? The whole thing feels petty- petty that I care so much and petty that I pay for it.
Thanks for listening.
Do what works for your family. My wife is absolutely amazing in her ability to keep the house clean while raising our two very young children. I clean here and there, but she definitely does more. If she told me she wanted to pay for a cleaner, I'd be completely open to it.
That said, yes, if you can clean on your own, it's a great work out, and is actually one of the most common forms of "exercise" among people who are old and healthy. The whole going to the gym thing doesn't really occur among healthy people in their 70s, 80s, and 90s, per longevity research; they get their workouts from things like walking, gardening, housework, and yoga.
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tthree - I am in awe. Please teach me all your secrets!
MrsWhipple - I was just curious if the people saying don't hire out were actually the people who had the most pressures on their leisure time. Clearly tthree is doing it all and so can say it is possible to juggle because she does it. So I'll definitely listen to her. If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt. And yeah, absolutely the primary cleaner can be male (my parents used to fit this pattern when I was growing up), but among my friends and colleagues I know only one SAHD who does this and of the couples that both work more than 40 hours a week I don't know any where the woman isn't doing the majority of the cleaning.
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Very controversial topic indeed, but fun to read.
There was a very informative cleaning thread a few months ago, I highly recommend reading it. It had some great book/website recommendations- I personally found them really useful.
As for the exercise bit: according to one of the diet books, with housework we are burning 4 calories per minute. Not sure if it is true, but I use this number to motivate myself.
In my experience, clearing the clutter (especially the kids' crap) takes twice as long as the proper cleaning. And the whole housekeeping thing is depressing if you are the only one doing it. I call them the invisible jobs, which are visible only if you are not doing them. If you have a regular cleaning routine (and chuck all the unnecessary things) things are not that hard.
I'm off to clean up my kitchen. Wonder how many dinner calories will I burn :D
cardiocardiocardio
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In my experience, clearing the clutter (especially the kids' crap) takes twice as long as the proper cleaning. And the whole housekeeping thing is depressing if you are the only one doing it. I call them the invisible jobs, which are visible only if you are not doing them.
I'm a sahm so I clean of course. I have time, that isn't the issue.
The big issue I have is that no one appreciates it. I am constantly (and I do mean constantly- multiple times a day) picking stuff up and putting it back where it goes. That's not to mention the daily tasks like food/meal prep and clean up or the deep cleaning.
Yes my kids could do more. But they are in school 8-4. There is a significant amount of nagging to get them to do their daily tasks like backpack packing/unpacking, teeth, clothing, bedroom cleaning, homework, clearing dishes. How much more can I really add? They do more in the summer and on weekends. Their "help" is less helpful than me just doing it- hopefully in another decade it will pay off, but in the meantime its more work for me, not less.
I'm applying for full time jobs. If I get one, convenience measures will have to be used, I value getting sleep and having sanity over saving every possible penny. It may or may not be a cleaner, but the specifics really don't matter.
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
For me personally, it's harder to relate to those with different relationship dynamics than those with different life situations (i.e. working/not working, kids/no-kids. In 16 years of marriage rest assured that I've tried sooo many different ways to get my DH to help. When I finally accepted that this wasn't going to happen I felt so much more peace in our relationship and it helped me better appreciate what he does do. I'm not trying to let him off the hook per se, but these are the dynamics of "our" relationship. It didn't come up in this thread too much but IRL, I find this harder for people to understand and why I don't bring it up in detail.
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
+1
For the record my DW is a SAHM however most of the cleaning does not happen unless I am there too. She cleans up after baby makes his mess eating and puts away toys a few times a day but most of the dishes, sweeping, mopping, dusting, i.e. heavy lifting of cleaning does not happen until we are both at home and someone can watch the kids. The person who ends up cleaning and who ends up babysitting is just whoever feels like, BTW. I would say maybe once every 3-4 weeks I get home and everything is already really clean but maybe once a week I get home and can tell its been a bad day.
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Here's my experience:
BF and I are DINKs. He works about 50-60 hours per week. I work about 45-50 at my full-time job and do/did the lion's share of the housework. We are both busy outside of work (playing sports, training for races, volunteering). Last year I got the opportunity to pick up a side gig (doing something I really enjoy) for another 10 hours a week. But, adding in another 10 hours of work per week without taking something away would have pushed me over the edge. So, we got a housecleaner to come in every other week, and I took the extra side gig. I make 2-3 times more from the side gig than we pay the housecleaner, and I enjoy it much more than cleaning. This isn't a theoretical "my time is worth more than $20/hr" but a straight "I do not have the bandwidth to take on this job that will make me $600/mo unless we spend $200/mo on a cleaner." So, for me it was a reasoned decision that I am ok with and makes financial sense in my mind. YMMV.
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
Agreed. My DW is a SAHM, but with a 9 mos old that doesn't leave her a lot of free time for cleaning.
This whole argument is crazy to me. Why is having a cleaner more or less fancy than paying for entertainment to be streamed into your house or motorized transportation? It's all about spending money in a way that maximizes the quality of your life, both now and in the future. To pretend that this doesn't vary person to person (and life situation to life situation) is asinine.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values.
+2. If a house cleaner enhances your life, and you can afford it, go for it. Why work so hard to get to FIRE if you're going to spend your precious time doing something you hate.
Yeah, to me, mindful spending is what this site is about. Not never spending money, but not spending it on shit that is more emotional or mindless spending. I myself also have a cleaning person come in once a month.
User asks for help to eliminate cleaner, instead everyone enables. :(
You conveniently chopped off my post to include only the part that "proves" the point you want to make. Fairly dishonest.
Not to mention that "everyone" is not suggesting the same thing. Quite a few peopke (including me, though you'd never know it from the editing you did to my quote) are pointing out that she has kids who should be participating in the cleaning, which would eliminate the need for a cleaner. I personally do not have kids, which is why I find having a cleaner come in once a month good for me.
Umm... Ok, I just chopped it because I found it irrelevant and the whole three-tier nested quote was already too long. Don't want be accused of censorship, for Goddsakes, so here it is:
That said, I third the suggestion that the OP's children should be participating in the cleaning.
I have no idea how including that children should help would have impacted my point that it was all enabling and housecleaners are bullshit.
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Good suggestions here. We have someone come as needed (every 4-6 weeks) for $60. My wife is a SAHM (for now, w/ a 9 mos old). My wife felt we should give up the cleaner since she was SAHM, but I encouraged her to keep her. We compromised by reducing the frequency (used to be every 3 weeks).
With stuff like this, I find it helpful to remember that the goal is quality of life, not simply saving as much money as possible. In a similar vein, I'm toying with the idea of paying for (inexpensive) yard service. When my DD is older and can help out, it will just be more quality time together. Right now, though, it's eating into my limited time with her.
Babywearing! You can do yard work with your baby as long as the weather is okay for her to be out.
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Good suggestions here. We have someone come as needed (every 4-6 weeks) for $60. My wife is a SAHM (for now, w/ a 9 mos old). My wife felt we should give up the cleaner since she was SAHM, but I encouraged her to keep her. We compromised by reducing the frequency (used to be every 3 weeks).
With stuff like this, I find it helpful to remember that the goal is quality of life, not simply saving as much money as possible. In a similar vein, I'm toying with the idea of paying for (inexpensive) yard service. When my DD is older and can help out, it will just be more quality time together. Right now, though, it's eating into my limited time with her.
Babywearing! You can do yard work with your baby as long as the weather is okay for her to be out.
Lol, my (just turned) 1 yo helps me pick up sticks. I guess just watching me go back and forth it starts to click, also tries to put things in the trash can.
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Very controversial topic indeed, but fun to read.
There was a very informative cleaning thread a few months ago, I highly recommend reading it. It had some great book/website recommendations- I personally found them really useful.
As for the exercise bit: according to one of the diet books, with housework we are burning 4 calories per minute. Not sure if it is true, but I use this number to motivate myself.
In my experience, clearing the clutter (especially the kids' crap) takes twice as long as the proper cleaning. And the whole housekeeping thing is depressing if you are the only one doing it. I call them the invisible jobs, which are visible only if you are not doing them. If you have a regular cleaning routine (and chuck all the unnecessary things) things are not that hard.
I'm off to clean up my kitchen. Wonder how many dinner calories will I burn :D
cardiocardiocardio
hmmm...I could earn that glass of wine if I clean more?
Let me see, 4 calories a minute, 240 cals an hour, 480 calories a week. That's about 5 glasses of wine, or one bottle. That's about $20 (my wine habit - it varies, but that's a pretty good average). That is $40 every two weeks, which is half the price of the cleaning person. You might be on to something here...
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
I took that comment as trying to point out perspective. Not that you shouldn't ever listen to anyone else's points, but -
For the most part, if you "aren't the person doing the cleaning", then, well, why would you REALLLYYY listen to the suggestion that you have to do the cleaning?
It's hard to understand everyone else's struggles. I can *say* that I know what it's like for single parents because my husband travels - but it's not the same. I can *say* that I understand what it's like to be a SAHM because I am home with the kids during vacation, but it's not the same. I can *say* that "it's not easier to clean when you are home with your kids because things get dirtier" but it's not the same as holding down a FT job. I could *say* that "because most of the cleaning happens when both the SAHP and WOHP are home, it's the same as having two working parents", but it's really not.
There are many reasons why these differences exist. Yes, if you wait and do *most* of the cleaning when both parents are home (this is not directed to you in particular, this is the "general you"), you are suggesting that there's no reason why 2 working parents cannot do the same. However, this discounts the fact that the SAHP gets a TON of "kid bonding time" that working parents do not. Good, bad, indifferent - it's just a fact of life. So, with the limited time you get with your kids, how much do you want to spend cleaning? It's going to depend on the chores and the ages of the kids.
I have exactly *zero* experience with 2-FT working couples where they do their own housework. Part of that is because of my upper middle class demographic. But even growing up as a kid in a working class neighborhood, it still applies. When my nephew was a baby, my mom watched him and cleaned her house while she was there. When my nieces were little, my brother worked only part time. That doesn't mean it's not do-able, just that it's hard. And I'd be willing to bet age is a factor also. I am on a weight loss board, and I occasionally read about people who work FT, cook all their meals, have 2 kids under 4, and work out an hour a day. But they sleep 4.5 hours a night, and they are 25 years old.
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tthree - I am in awe. Please teach me all your secrets!
Simple. It's a combination of lowering my standards, and a healthy dose of not giving a fuck;)
In 16 years of marriage rest assured that I've tried sooo many different ways to get my DH to help. When I finally accepted that this wasn't going to happen I felt so much more peace in our relationship and it helped me better appreciate what he does do.
Wise words. I am definitely in the same boat. DH hates being asked/told what to do. In the past, the only thing fostered by me asking for help around the house was resentment; he resented me for telling him what to do and in turn I resented him for not helping. Not useful. And this does not make him a bad person. He has many positive qualities I can focus on.....why waste my life energy lamenting his less desirable ones?
I think if you want to show your DH that saving more money is important to you, you need to lead by example and he needs to see you sacrifice something near and dear to your heart. Maybe the that's the housecleaner, or fancy coffee, or shoes.....I don't know, it just needs to be something that will signify your seriousness to him. Otherwise he will think you are all talk and no action and the HE is the one having to make ALL the changes.
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I really have no new perspective to add, but as an enabler I am adding my $0.02. I had such guilt about my house cleaner. I felt like it was my dirty little secret that I tried to not tell others in my life. When I and my husband were working full time....money was flowing and so was savings (and I had never heard of MMM); I felt justified in having a housekeeper. My job sucked the life out of me and the last thing I wanted to do was spend the weekend cleaning. The husband did little to help. Garbage and mowing the grass was and is his domain. Kids, bills, family commitments, travel planning, and every other nuance of our lives is on me. The housekeeper made me happy and maintained marital bliss.
Then I left my job to stay home with the kids. I tried to fire the housekeeper because I thought that was what a SAHM should do. My housekeeper balked. She needed the money - we agreed to once a month. I felt enormous guilt for keeping her on the payroll, but she made me so happy. I loved the one day a month my entire house was clean.
I went back to work 2 years later. She is back to every two weeks and I have let the guilt go. The happiness she brings me is worth what I pay her. We all have our priorities and we all have our vices. I like that the weekend is not when I am doing my cleaning. It is free for sports (yep, organized sports - shoot me with a spear) and family activities. My time is worth a lot. It takes me about 2 1/2 hours of working time to pay her (and she spends 4 hours cleaning). No regrets.
My husband can be a little spendy and will not readily adopt MMM. But I don't think that giving up the housekeeper will influence him to change his ways. Everybody's financial situation is unique and everybody needs to find their own path to financial independence.
And for those who are concerned that it is setting the wrong example for the kids, unless the housekeeper came every day there is still plenty of cleaning to do. Kids are messy. And I do enlist the kids, but that often entails me supervising them the majority of the time and not truly gaining much efficiency. Someday I may reap some benefits from child labor, but for now it requires a lot of monitoring, instruction, auditing, and time.
Best Wishes
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I think if you want to show your DH that saving more money is important to you, you need to lead by example and he needs to see you sacrifice something near and dear to your heart. Maybe the that's the housecleaner, or fancy coffee, or shoes.....I don't know, it just needs to be something that will signify your seriousness to him. Otherwise he will think you are all talk and no action and the HE is the one having to make ALL the changes.
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THIS! Exactly this. In my mind, because the house cleaner is my sacred cow, that is the the thing I need to sacrifice in order for him to know that I'm serious. It's entirely possible though that I could give this up and he still would not think I was serious. Maybe he thinks the money I spend on home improvement is my sacred cow, or something else for that matter. I mentioned earlier that I have lots of other low hanging fruit in terms of savings options. I'm going to ask him today although he hates talking about money.
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A CLEANER! My, I hadn't noticed our betters were among us! I presume you do count yourself as one of the landed gentry. Do you keep a copy of your pedigree with you at all times? Did your great-grandfather slay a dragon? Did your ancestors come across the 'channel' with William the Conqueror?
Ok, ok, I have been reading for a while about people having 'cleaners', and I couldn't help myself any longer. I'm sorry you had to receive the brunt of it, but hopefully it will give people some perspective.
As an aside, the more you think about something like this the more you realize eating out and having a waiter especially, or taking clothes to the dry cleaners or whatever is kinda ridiculous, like we are of the aristocratic class or something.
Ya know, I almost typed out "that doesn't seem like too much to have someone clean"... then I read this post. I personally have never been able to allow myself to pay someone to clean. No one will come and do what I really want them to do anyway, and if you have them come less often, they will charge more, even if you clean in between their visits. If you were making a lot more money, you wouldn't sweat the $75. It sounds like your bigger issue is your husband blowing money on things, but do YOU blow money on anything? You didn't name loads of things he blows money on, you named one, so maybe he treated himself.
When you start to feel a relationship is one sided in its spending - try for one month keeping a tally of BOTH you and your SO and what you spend extra money on... do this before you point a finger, even if you've been keeping a mental tally for years... put it on paper first.
I'm great at cleaning, but I don't like to do it. My husband is willing to help, and also willing to pay someone, however, he also said our house doesn't HAVE to be clean. I tend to choose one room at a time, when I'm in the mood, and clean it top to bottom. And having the right cleaning tools makes a difference.
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I really have no new perspective to add, but as an enabler I am adding my $0.02. I had such guilt about my house cleaner. I felt like it was my dirty little secret that I tried to not tell others in my life. When I and my husband were working full time....money was flowing and so was savings (and I had never heard of MMM); I felt justified in having a housekeeper. My job sucked the life out of me and the last thing I wanted to do was spend the weekend cleaning. The husband did little to help. Garbage and mowing the grass was and is his domain. Kids, bills, family commitments, travel planning, and every other nuance of our lives is on me. The housekeeper made me happy and maintained marital bliss.
Then I left my job to stay home with the kids. I tried to fire the housekeeper because I thought that was what a SAHM should do. My housekeeper balked. She needed the money - we agreed to once a month. I felt enormous guilt for keeping her on the payroll, but she made me so happy. I loved the one day a month my entire house was clean.
I went back to work 2 years later. She is back to every two weeks and I have let the guilt go. The happiness she brings me is worth what I pay her. We all have our priorities and we all have our vices. I like that the weekend is not when I am doing my cleaning. It is free for sports (yep, organized sports - shoot me with a spear) and family activities. My time is worth a lot. It takes me about 2 1/2 hours of working time to pay her (and she spends 4 hours cleaning). No regrets.
My husband can be a little spendy and will not readily adopt MMM. But I don't think that giving up the housekeeper will influence him to change his ways. Everybody's financial situation is unique and everybody needs to find their own path to financial independence.
And for those who are concerned that it is setting the wrong example for the kids, unless the housekeeper came every day there is still plenty of cleaning to do. Kids are messy. And I do enlist the kids, but that often entails me supervising them the majority of the time and not truly gaining much efficiency. Someday I may reap some benefits from child labor, but for now it requires a lot of monitoring, instruction, auditing, and time.
Best Wishes
I do really relate to your situation, including your avatar:) In what other areas of your financial life have you made meaningful improvements and have any of those resonated with your husband?
I also want to say that posting this and reading through the comments has clarified for me how much of this "cleaning" thing is a mental hurdle for me. I could likely clean my house in 1.5 to 2 hours and while it would not be easy to find the time I could do it. I would need to adjust my attitude to make it happen. And make it a work out:)
I haven't quite landed on what I'll do just yet. I may go down to once a month or I may wait until we get through a few more of the DIY home improvement projects that we have going on from moving recently. In the meantime, I've finally seen this month that I CAN spend less on groceries and "stuff" which is giving me the encouragement to keep walking down this path.
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This isn't to instigate... I'm just genuinely curious... How many of the people here who are critical of this thread and posting that all domestic work should be 100% DIY are women with young children who hold full-time or overtime hours at their jobs?
I may be way off here, but I'm guessing that most of those views come from people who either do not work full time, or do not have partners who work full time, or do not have to care for other family members while working.
If I'm dead wrong and there is someone out there doing the lion's share of the work for a family of 4 while holding a professional job who still is anti-robot/anti-help enough to be posting here, let me just drop to my knees right now. (We'renotworthywe'renotworthy!)
Both my husband and I work FT, we have two kids who are active in school and extracurricular activities, and we do all of our own cleaning and cook. It's not really hard to manage because there are two of us working to do what needs to be done.
I am actually not anti-cleaner, but I am anti-husband-sitting-on-his-butt while I clean and cook. Not going to happen. Having someone help clean the house isn't the issue. Spending money to pay someone to clean your house when you have an able bodied adult doing nothing is the problem.
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So many great replies, thank you! One idea that has grabbed my attention is using house cleaning as a work out. I am a runner currently sidelined with plantar fasciitis so struggling to come up with non impact ways to work out. I mean can this really be done as a work out? I've never felt winded while cleaning but if there are ways to do it then I might be game.
In response to some of the comments... my kids are 10 and 6 so, yes, they can help. It just, well, it sucks to nag them about one more thing. I know that sounds lame. They do already help by doing their laundry, taking out trash, packing lunches and keeping rooms cleaned up.
I hate cleaning because I don't have great attention to detail so when I'm done it never looks as good as when the cleaners do it. I do like the concept of being able to mentally change my outlook on this as really this applies to some many things in life and is a worthwhile pursuit. I have that speed cleaning book mentioned and I just never got it down, it wasn't intuitive to me. In fairness I probably didn't give it a long enough period to learn the techniques.
The hiring of cleaners is definitely in the category cheaper than divorce. In our marriage we do have an uneven split of household duties but I've come to accept that as part of the package. And most of these duties I don't mind- cooking, shopping, tidying are things that come easy for me (unlike the cleaning!). Interestingly enough when we saw a marriage counselor she suggested we get a house cleaner to take this part of the discord off the table.
We got a roomba earlier this year as this was a requirement of mine for agreeing to get a dog.... and it does really help a lot. I rarely have to get the big vacuum out.
I'm leaning toward trying to switch to once a month cleaning unless I can figure out how to get a work out of the deal. Our house is 1300 sf, 3 bed, 1.5 baths without a lot of clutter so I don't think it should take that long. The cleaning team of 2 people is in and out in about 1 hour maybe?
Here are some strategies for you:
1. Make less mess. Figure out the key reasons why different cleaning tasks need to occur and find ways to get by longer without doing them. For example if you have a willingness to rewear unstinky clothes (obviously excluding underwear and socks) at least once before washing, you can cut your laundry significantly and save a lot of wear on your clothes.
2. Adjust your expectations. Similar to the laundry example above consider the level of cleanliness you really need. It sounds like having a clean home is super important to you. I would take some time to unpack the reasons why you value this. If you decide that cleanliness is critical to your well being then by all means carry on.
3. To make cleaning a workout adjust your routine so that you are continuously moving. Move furniture and pick up all carpetted areas and then run the vacuum as fast as is feasible. Mopping would be similar.
4. Consider rewarding your children for assisting with the cleaning. Identify what's important to them (electronics time, a special treat, etc.) and exchange it for services rendered. This doesn't have to be cash but sometimes cash is easiest.
5. Do what you're willing to do yourself, outsource some tasks to the kids, live with what you can and maintain your cleaning service 1x month for deep cleaning. I would say that your husband needs to pay for the cleaning he is unwilling or unable (for time reasons) to do but it sounds like you have completely shared finances.
Oh and ignore the holier-than-thou judgement from some Mustachians. Your values may be different than some of ours, but that doesn't make them any less valid.
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I feel you, OP. This is the list I've been over and over in my head a thousand times. House cleaning was our (though mostly Sweet Husband's) "one thing" that he will go to the wall to keep in FIRE. It drove me crazy for a few months ("Gah! That expense of < $200/month sitting on the spreadsheet!") but I've made peace with it.
We are mega minimalists and the house is clean anyway, and yet, because we've kept our cleaner...
The house is always clean, on schedule -- no matter if I've had a broken ankle, we were working a ton of hours, we had house guests coming (we have a lot of those, almost monthly sometimes), etc. I've been happy -- when these times have cropped up -- that we had a reliable person we could rely on (hell to find in the SF Bay Area by the way). The biggest reason, though, is that I used to clean houses (as one of my three jobs in college and whenever I needed side income) and I don't want to fire our house cleaner, who's been with us for four years. She's reliable, she immigrated from El Salvador and doesn't have a ton of options, and I don't want to fire her just because we're FIRE and "don't need her" like we did when we were both working full-time insane people hours. I like that I can pay someone -- who is so worth it -- a decent wage ($30/hour free and clear because I can).
Like you, I can (but don't) *usually* clean as well as the house cleaner... or as well as I did when someone else was paying me for it! The exception is the tub. My Polish OCD tendencies take over and I can boil laundry and scrub tile 'till the cows come home.
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When I was a SAHP I did all the cleaning. I did not need my husband to be home watching the 3 kids while I cleaned. That is silly. However, when I went back to work I hired someone monthly because it greatly reduced the stress. Kids gone and I am semi-retired so again no cleaners but do have robots that clean. Spend your $ on your priorities. When I worked f.t. the cleaners were priceless.
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I do really relate to your situation, including your avatar:) In what other areas of your financial life have you made meaningful improvements and have any of those resonated with your husband?
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dkaid,
I have made progress with my husband, but I also have come to accept that we will never be fully aligned. He insists that he needs $100K a year to spend in retirement (which is more than we currently spend). He equates how much something costs with quality (and he always wants the best). I do not believe the correlation between cost and quality is always pure, and in many cases I am willing to pay less and accept less quality.
My husband is an engineer. What has really helped is showing him firecalc and explaining to him the Trinity Study. That gave us a goal....and allowed him to see that our spending affects our savings which ultimately impacts our retirement. I have created a personal financial scorecard in which I track all of the metrics that I think matter. I tried to engage him in a monthly review. He has no interest, so I review it with myself. I rigorously track our spending through Mint (and use it for budgeting). If he makes any unknown charge or a large charge I immediately text him asking what it is. He finds it eery that within hours of a purchase I know he made it and I am asking him about it. He does give me all receipts because he knows that I am tracking it. My continual questions and feedback on our expenditures provide a framework of accountability. What truly helped was when he saw that through our efforts he really can retire early. He wants to enjoy life....and for that he feels the need to spend on things that make him happy. He does not want to forsake his current life for his future life. Fortunately, we both did agree that as soon as we were employed we needed to max out our 401K and our IRA. And I managed to squirrel away a little beyond that. We have done the heavy lifting in our 20's and 30's so I am loosening up the reins and allowing compounding to work its magic.
Even though I felt like at times I had not made any success with the MMM methodology the other day my husband came home and told me how he had talked to a coworker about MMM. It just takes time and persistence. And if your husband is analytical there is nothing like presenting hard, cold numbers to show the benefit of saving. My husband's eyes are opening up to the fact that the vast majority of people spend most of what they earn. He is very confused as to why everybody is not in the same financial situation as us. And I think that is what motivates him to share MMM. From his perspective, maxing out retirement options is obvious and he assumed that everybody did it. Now that we have a couple of decades of compounding the benefit is obvious. He believes in the power of compounding, even if he will never be super frugal. So our key was just to do what all the financial folks say....pay ourselves first, and then spending can occur with the residual. The MMM team also gave me much guidance when I was trying to work through some of our financial struggles and get my husband on board. Thanks to the many great people on this forum we are in a much better place and my husband respects the MMM methodology even if he will never be very far into the MMM continuum. Even an adapted version is better than nothing.
To cut our expenditures, we do not have cable. That is painful for him. I only was able to get him to agree many years ago because of a dispute with our cable provider. So it was packaged as retaliatory than as cost cutting...that was 8 years ago. We have Oooma as opposed to a landline for phone; he was also very resistant to dropping the landline (for 911 purposes).
Sorry for the long response.
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If someone on the other hand was saying do it yourself but had no kids or was a stay at home parent or had a stay at home partner who was doing the household work, then I'd probably take that with a grain of salt.
This was pretty narrow-minded of you to discount everyone's perspective but one profile. Yes, I'm a SAHP, but that also means that my house gets dirtier during the day than an empty household. So what's your point? The fact that I don't work outside the home and, after I've dropped my two older kids off at school, instead work inside the home chasing after my toddler and cleaning up all the myriad of messes he makes all day, means that it is easier for me? Come on, now. Probably the main reason that SAHPs don't hire out house cleaners as often is not because it's easier for them to do but because they can't justify the expense on one income and because of the societal bias you display here that they should have the time to do it and that it would be somehow shameful or a sign of their lack of ability if they did. I am very pro-clean your own home, but you display your own biases here about who you think is "worthy" of doing it.
I took that comment as trying to point out perspective. Not that you shouldn't ever listen to anyone else's points, but -
For the most part, if you "aren't the person doing the cleaning", then, well, why would you REALLLYYY listen to the suggestion that you have to do the cleaning?
Yup that was my intent-- certainly not meant to discount SAHP's work at all, so if you are in that camp I apologize if that's how it read. On the contrary, I'm in the boat that thinks that their non-wage contributions are way undervalued and need to be recognized. (I would LOVE a stay at home partner or the ability to stay at home for a few years myself!) But I do think it matters if you are not the one doing the cleaning criticizing someone else's priorities in managing the cleaning.
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There are plenty of people on this board who will face punch you for having a house cleaner come to do what we can do ourselves (some better than others). My response to that is a big "F-that".
The whole point of mindful spending, saving, reducing, etc. is to put your money where you have consciously determined brings you joy and/or aligns with your values. If you value time with the family more than cleaning and can afford it, go for it. If having cleaners avoids marital strife and you can afford it, go for it. If knowing that the cleaners are coming is the only thing that gets your spouse to pick the damn place up and you can afford it, then go for it.
(Yes, I am projecting my own situation onto the OP question here!) :)
+this this this this this. I love the phrase "mindful spending."
It sounds like it bugs you. I'd probably make a list of the things you'd like to reduce spending on, with dollar values attached, and a "how desirable is it" (or time) figure. Prioritize it and execute the top one - and then don't beat yourself up about the cleaners if you're already starting to execute a plan that's better than starting with the cleaners.
For me, a list like that led to finally getting rid of my car (my wife has one also). I kept the cleaners at every two weeks. Life's too short - spouse and I both work 50+ hour weeks (and wouldn't change that), and, um, I'm possibly one of the world's messiest cooks. I'm taking some of that extra time and working on my home repair skills (replaced one of our toilets a while ago - woohoo!), gardening with my daughter, cooking, doing side projects, or about four other higher-priority things, several of which have a better ROI than not paying my cleaners.
Mindlessly keeping the cleaners around without ever having tried DIY? Probably not a good idea. Mindfully keeping the cleaners with an actively considered understanding of the tradeoff involved and what it actually buys you? It's your life. Live it.