Gut check on offer letter details

[darkskys]

I’m curious if the following seem normal for an offer letter:

1. 2 year noncompete, entire US. Not a huge deal because I can work in a different field in the same job but still long.

2. Mandatory arbitration clause for any reason including discrimination

3. Some pretty broad clause about invention even in on employees time and equipment. I believe it has to do with the industry though

4. Must notice future employer that one worked for this company so the company can make the new one aware of obligations of NDA

A lawyer might be needed here but Looking for a gut check because mine says some of this is excessive.

[Sibley]

What industry/field?

In my industry, they'd be a laughing stock just for the noncompete, never mind the rest of it. However, this may vary widely by industry. Overall, its one red flag after another to me.

What do other people in the industry think of this company? That may tell you everything you need to know.

[darkskys]

Software engineering/late stage fin tech startup. They are doing quite well and seem to have a good reputation in the area as an employer from the info I can gather from Glassdoor and local “best to work” lists.

How accurate that is I don’t know.

[bacchi]

Are you C level or a key employee like architect of their main product?

Does the arbitration clause require you to use a certain arbitrator?

[darkskys]

Are you C level or a key employee like architect of their main product?

Does the arbitration clause require you to use a certain arbitrator?

No I’m just a lowly engineer and yes they specify the arbitrator in the offer.

[Sibley]

Glassdoor can be manipulated, and the best places to work stuff is usually a joke. Do you know anyone who works there, used to work there, etc? This is where your network comes in handy.

Personally, I'd walk away.

[bacchi]

Are you C level or a key employee like architect of their main product?

Does the arbitration clause require you to use a certain arbitrator?

No I’m just a lowly engineer and yes they specify the arbitrator in the offer.

I'd walk.

In California, non-competes are almost always non enforceable and for good reason.

[darkskys]

Glassdoor can be manipulated, and the best places to work stuff is usually a joke. Do you know anyone who works there, used to work there, etc? This is where your network comes in handy.

Personally, I'd walk away.

Unfortunately I do not know anyone personally who works there

[secondcor521]

I was a lowly software engineer for several different high tech companies for about 15 years.

Item 1 seems excessive both in duration and geography.  Probably wouldn't hold up in court and they probably know that.  If that's accurate, then they're being obnoxious or arrogant.

Item 2 I wouldn't agree to personally.

Item 3 sounds like a standard thing and I had one with my first main employer, which was a high tech company whose name you would recognize.  I disclosed a bunch of inventions to them; I'm the inventor and the patent holder, but they're the assignee, meaning they own the idea.  Fine by me, since I wasn't going to pursue my inventions anyway as they were mostly improvements on the company's products, and they paid for the attorney and patent costs.  I got a plaque and some incentive cash.

Item 4 would be a non-starter for me because it imposes an obligation on a third party (the future employer).  It also strikes me as rude, arrogant, and obnoxious.

Overall, though, at the end of the day, these things are just factors in the overall situation.  If the employer is offering big salary, generous benefits, job security, interesting work, flexibility, and I'm unemployed and have a mortgage payment due and the checking account is empty, I'm probably swallowing my pride and my morals and meekly signing the offer paperwork.

You could ask if any of these items are negotiable, but for a lowly software engineer I highly doubt it.  You could also ask for more money and allocate whatever portion of that increase to the fact that these offer letter items are bothersome.

[use2betrix]

From my understanding (I’ve signed similar statements as most all jobs I’ve worked, and as a contractor, that’s probably 6-8 companies over a dozen years) the non compete clauses are only enforceable if you quit, and even the , rarely so. If you’re terminated or laid off, they can’t enforce them as leaving was not at your will. Again, by that logic, if you wanted to leave, surely you could find a way for them to be forced to terminate you..

[Zamboni]

You've asked for more money, right? And more vacation time? And a signing bonus? All of that? Because you are obligated by MMM community standards to do that, lol. I'm serious.

Especially now that you've seen all of this BS, ask for more even if you did already.

I've found that I can just cross out whatever clauses I don't like . . . I do this for the mandatory arbitration clause at my local hospital whenever they put that in front of me. Cross it out, line by line. That's what I would do for #2 . . . I'd just cross it out line by line, say nothing about it otherwise, then sign it.

Not sure how well that would go over with a job offer letter, though. How bad do you want this job?

I agree that invention and NDA clauses are quite standard, but I've never seen one like #4. 1 & 4 I would ignore, pretty much.

I worked for a place that had #1, but the geographic scope was "worldwide," which was a joke. The result was that literally no one who left would tell anyone at work where they were going next unless it was very, very unrelated work.

[darkskys]

You've asked for more money, right? And more vacation time? And a signing bonus? All of that? Because you are obligated by MMM community standards to do that, lol. I'm serious.

Especially now that you've seen all of this BS, ask for more even if you did already.

I've found that I can just cross out whatever clauses I don't like . . . I do this for the mandatory arbitration clause at my local hospital whenever they put that in front of me. Cross it out, line by line. That's what I would do for #2 . . . I'd just cross it out line by line, say nothing about it otherwise, then sign it.

Not sure how well that would go over with a job offer letter, though. How bad do you want this job?

I agree that invention and NDA clauses are quite standard, but I've never seen one like #4. 1 & 4 I would ignore, pretty much.

I worked for a place that had #1, but the geographic scope was "worldwide," which was a joke. The result was that literally no one who left would tell anyone at work where they were going next unless it was very, very unrelated work.

The people were cool and the job would be doing what I enjoy. It’s remote. It’s a small increase in comp, but on the upper end of what I can get outside of big name companies (see below).. Benefits are good but no 401k match or anything sadly. I’m really bummed this offer turned out with all these whacked out clauses, but I do not need to move as I’m not desperate and I don’t hate my job. All that being said is likely have taken it with more salary and a without a few of these terms. I do want to move on though, and I’ve been looking for awhile.

I do have something much better in the running I’m waiting for. Actually it would alter my career trajectory and FI plans  forever in a really good way if I got it and was willing to relocate. It’s probably unlikely I get it, but worth waiting it out for an answer.

[Zamboni]

Sounds like a good answer would be:

"Hmmm, I wasn't expecting all of these clauses in an offer letter. Do you mind if I take some time to get these reviewed by an attorney before I sign?"

Of course they will say yes . . . so that buys you time to wait to hear back from the other job, perhaps?

[iluvzbeach]

What Zamboni said above + can you use this offer to get your current employer to give you a bump in pay to, at least, match the offer?

[Paul der Krake]

A late stage startup is very, very unlikely to budge on their formulaic offer terms. If you try the crossing out trick they'll just show you the door.