The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: MrsCoolCat on December 17, 2014, 09:15:45 PM
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This happens to everyone, but what's the best way of handling it short of being stepped over and repeating it?
My husband's coworker(s) suggested getting another coworker a gift card and a pizza party for his bday. The woman said she had money so my husband paid by credit card. We suspect she is either trying to ride the "woman train" and see if my hubby's one of those guys who doesn't bring it up again. Or she is just trying to see if he'll forget. She genuinely "forgot" because for some reason she just didn't give him the cash right away when she said she had it. Let's just say she has a history of a "fishy personality", so it's not beneath her or most people for that matter to not pay people back, and it's not because they don't remember. A lot of people just feel entitled to it or that it "doesn't matter". What do you think? How do you handle those situations with or without looking "cheap" for bringing it up!
I have other stories, but I'll spare you. Everyone's gone through this whether it's the person who "borrows" a $1 for the vending machine but never had the intention of paying you back. I didn't grow up like that. I'd give someone back .25 if I borrowed it!
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My brother is like that. If I ask for the money, he says I'm cheap.
I tell him he is the cheap one for wanting me to pay for his shit. He is generous in other ways. But so am I, so I don't feel like I should have to just ignore it when he asks to borrow some money.
I am the same way, I take it very seriously when I borrow money. He doesn't.
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:-) I'm just going to add to this and share my stories for whoever may be interested on the topic!
A while back a group of English teachers went to a karaoke bar. The woman collecting the money just said to me, "This $10 is for you and Mike. He can pay you back." Ok, I didn't have a choice in the matter. Down to the last few days of me ever seeing Mike again. Mind you he had over 2 weeks to return to me $5! Finally, we're all out again and he goes to pick up $5 drinks at this corner bar spot for a group of us. All I remember is some how ending up with him at that bar and saying, "Hey Matt, you can give me back the $5 you owe me by buying my drink!" He literally said or had this, "Really?" look on his face! Yes, I f-ing want my $5 back! We're the same damn age and you're not any more entitled to my $5 than I am because it's MY friggin $5! LOL I know this is a big crap over $5 but it makes it that much more significant. That he feels he can just take my $5 because he doesn't know me well or will ever see me, again!
On the flip side to that. I was traveling alone in Hong Kong and met this British couple at the Peak. We chatted, took pictures for each other and even exchanged FB names! They eventually invited me to have dinner with them, so I went. When the bill came I made sure I had the servers tell me exactly what they're charging us for because it was in Chinese and I speak but don't read it. The man paid for everything and said I'm his guest he's treating me, etc. etc. I said, "No, it's fine." Eventually after at least saying no more than 2xs he laughed about it and took my money saying, "Ok, fine. This can go towards our cab ride!" I can tell his wife and I both were just relieved. I am just not one of those people and the bill portion was definitely at least $40, so I practice what I preach! :-) I would have never saw them again and I knew that.
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Had a coworker that tried this (was for another coworker's flower arrangement for their mother's funeral so not a small amount). Everyone else paid up within a week but one guy. I just started asking every couple of days. Sent an email or asked in person "so hey, you have the money? No, how about tomorrow? Okay, I'll check in with you next week. Would be really nice if you could pay me back soon." And if there was someone in his cube when I asked, oh well too bad if it embarrassed him. As soon as he realized I wasn't going to let it go, he paid me. Took 3 weeks of that, but I do not let that crap go.
And I'll never go in or pay something on a card "and they'll just pay me back later" again for them.
I've spotted someone change for vending one time and if they don't pay me back without asking, the next time I haven't got anything for them. I won't bug someone over a few dollars, but they're cut off from any future assistance if they can't be bothered to locate some change a few days later.
If someone wants to call me cheap for asking that's fine; I'll just call them a flake and a jerk for not honoring their word to pay me back.
Asking politely but firmly over and over again usually results in them either getting embarrassed or annoyed enough to pay you back. And I don't really care what that type of person thinks of me at that point, so I'd do it until repaid and then drop them as friends or be polite but distant if coworkers.
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LOL here here to someone else that is strong in their beliefs to not accept this flaky common norm! Yes, I agree about the few dollars. Never letting that person borrow even .25 again! The worst was probably during the 20s, weddings/wedding party and during those painstaking "group birthday" parties. I told my hubby to friggin bring cash, so that crap never happens again! I have faith in him that he will get his money back or lesson learned. He's good with his money, too! :-)
Had a coworker that tried this (was for another coworker's flower arrangement for their mother's funeral so not a small amount). Everyone else paid up within a week but one guy. I just started asking every couple of days. Sent an email or asked in person "so hey, you have the money? No, how about tomorrow? Okay, I'll check in with you next week. Would be really nice if you could pay me back soon." And if there was someone in his cube when I asked, oh well too bad if it embarrassed him. As soon as he realized I wasn't going to let it go, he paid me. Took 3 weeks of that, but I do not let that crap go.
And I'll never go in or pay something on a card "and they'll just pay me back later" again for them.
I've spotted someone change for vending one time and if they don't pay me back without asking, the next time I haven't got anything for them. I won't bug someone over a few dollars, but they're cut off from any future assistance if they can't be bothered to locate some change a few days later.
If someone wants to call me cheap for asking that's fine; I'll just call them a flake and a jerk for not honoring their word to pay me back.
Asking politely but firmly over and over again usually results in them either getting embarrassed or annoyed enough to pay you back. And I don't really care what that type of person thinks of me at that point, so I'd do it until repaid and then drop them as friends or be polite but distant if coworkers.
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This app is free & will even do the nagging: https://www.splitwise.com
DS uses this with roommates & friends.
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We've been lucky that most people pay us back, one friend, in fact, is good about remembering money she feels she owes when I don't mind if she doesn't pay me (I figure if I take her kid out to lunch along with mine, but I never told her I was going to lunch, I wouldn't ask to be reimbursed). But I also hate nagging people about money, so I don't ask. So I also wouldn't lend anything that I couldn't afford to lose without feeling bad.
I did run into an interesting situation with a soccer mom, though. I emailed the group asking if anyone had arranged for a coach's gift, and she offered to buy a gift card, but people had to get her the money before she went out and bought it because last year she'd bought first, people hadn't paid her back, and she was out a lot of money. The way she put it made a lot of sense, and a couple of us dropped money by her house before the deadline. I thought she did a good job of protecting her financial interest.
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I don't loan money to people as a general rule, because I am quite persistent about asking for it back. Many people take offense at this, hence the rule. I like the promissory note idea, may try that next time.
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We have a couple we hang out with, and we "run tabs" with each other. Periodically, we settle. Other than that, we never lend money. Not to family, not to anyone. If someone asks me for money, and it's a small amount, I tell them it's a gift and to pay it forward.
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If you're going to lend money to a friend, have them execute a demand promissory note in which they promise to repay the loan on demand plus any attorney's fees in the event you need to collect on the note through the court system.
I've actually done this, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
If the friend won't agree to that, don't lend them money.
I may be in the minority on this one but how can you use the work "friend" in that sentence? If someone is genuinely my friend, I have no problem lending them a few bucks here and there because (since we're friends!) I know they'll get me back. If you have to take the time to generate a promissory note, you shouldn't be dealing with that person to begin with. Simple as that.
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I did run into an interesting situation with a soccer mom, though. I emailed the group asking if anyone had arranged for a coach's gift, and she offered to buy a gift card, but people had to get her the money before she went out and bought it because last year she'd bought first, people hadn't paid her back, and she was out a lot of money. The way she put it made a lot of sense, and a couple of us dropped money by her house before the deadline. I thought she did a good job of protecting her financial interest.
That's the ONLY way to do a group gift like that!
I've worked on a lot of performances, and it was tradition to get the director/choreographer/designer/etcetc a gift from the cast. If the person arranging the gifts says something like "If everyone gives $3, we'll be able to get this awesome thing for them!" But when you've got 20 people (or even just 5), some of whom might not have $3 to give or who wanted to give their own present or ANY REASON, you're not going to end up with $60. But the person organizing it will be thinking "it's only $3, everyone's got $3". It's not just inconsiderate to expect everyone to pay up, but you're putting your own damn self in the position of not being paid back if you buy something without everyone's prior agreement.
Same went for the cast parties. Somebody would go buy booze and think to themselves "OK, there were 30 people involved, so I can spend $5x30=$150 on alcohol." Guess what! Not everyone's drinking. Some bring their own drinks. Some are just moochers and don't or can't pay. We have had people out $100 because they overspent on alcohol before getting the money. After that, money was collected during rehearsals for the cast party and only that money was spent.
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If I wanted to lend money to people, I would have become a banker.
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I may be in the minority on this one but how can you use the work "friend" in that sentence? If someone is genuinely my friend, I have no problem lending them a few bucks here and there because (since we're friends!) I know they'll get me back. If you have to take the time to generate a promissory note, you shouldn't be dealing with that person to begin with. Simple as that.
I don't think it's that simple. Small claims shows like Judge Fill-in-the-Blank there are stories rife with people who made deals with people who were friends and that they genuinely trusted. I'm sure many of them thought "I know they'll pay me back." Also, memory can be a funny thing that changes with time. One person can remember "they promised they'd pay me back" and another can swear on their mother's grave "they said not to worry about paying them back." Something specific in writing (properly dated and signed by each party) can help with fuzzy memories.
If it's for a large amount, you should have a promissory note, and I think a good friend should respect that. Plus, it'll show how serious you are about getting paid back, thereby increasing their "trustworthiness."
I had a friend sell me a car I couldn't afford on my own and couldn't get financing for (I know, right?!) We wrote up our own note with the total selling price, expected monthly payment minimums, etc. We both signed and both had a copy. Every check I wrote them I wrote in the notes "(Month) payment, ($$$) remaining" so there was a clear record. No problems, no strained friendship, no Judge Whatever for small claims.
I hope I never need a favor like that again, but if I do, I'd insist on a clear contract again. It helps to preserve interests and friendships.
The idea of "they're my friend, I trust them" is nice but you disregard foibles of human nature.
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babysnowbyrd/Cathy - What is a "large enough" amount you'd write up a note for? $20? $100? $1000? How serious are you bout getting your money back. Honestly if a close friend (someone I've know for more than half my life for example, or 14+ years) needed $20 or $100 for help in some way, I'd probably give it to them without asking for it back.
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I agree. The car in question probably could have been sold to someone else in the $5,000 range but they sold it to me for $4,000.
I'm poor enough now that if a friend needed money, I probably wouldn't be able to part with much without asking that it be repaid.
I guess it's up to you to ask yourself how much your underwear would bunch if you never got it back.
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I would always bring it up! Hell, I don't get embarrassed by taboo subjects.
[Having a conversation with a friend which turns to debt and money.]
Me: "And BTW, you still owe me 40 bucks."
Him: "40 bucks?! For what?!"
Me: "For when we went to see the Sex Pistols last year and you said you'd pay half the rental car but never did."
Him: "What?! You remember that?"
Me: "'Course."
He paid. He's a nice guy, we usually don't quibble about bills or beer or picking up the cheque. But hey, if you borrow and say you'll pay back that's a different story completely.
I have actually laminated the following list and keep it in my wallet:
http://lenpenzo.com/blog/id15845-dear-friend-here-are-41-reasons-why-im-not-lending-you-the-money.html (http://lenpenzo.com/blog/id15845-dear-friend-here-are-41-reasons-why-im-not-lending-you-the-money.html)
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I don't really care about looking cheap, if i'm not comfortable with someone 'owing' me, then I don't spend the money.
I'm not really into loaning people money. if I'm giving money to someone whether its friends or family, at work, or for whatever reason, i just consider it a gift, or an expense and move on. Sure, I might get paid back, but I don't expect to. Makes things a lot easier, and really narrows down the amounts i'm willing to give out and to who.
In the case of office-friends, generally i've picked up lunches or other things and I just say "go ahead and get me next time", and if we're friends they do. I think i'd go crazy if I had to constantly remember that Bob owed me $17.50 from that last trip out. Bob can just get lunch next time.
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I've never had a problem lending friends money, but that's only because I'm very picky about who I would lend money to.
The last time I lent someone money she paid me back via email before we'd left the store (she'd forgotten her credit card at work and was buying groceries). I had no doubts she would pay me back, but I didn't expect it to be that quickly.
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Yay, Frankie's Girl...
I don't have the gumption to ask, so I just NEVER loan money -- I will say -- here, it's on me-- if I like the person and have the extra.
My DH actually does something differently. He says "Sure", email me right now the money and I will put it on my CC (or give the cash, or whatever). Our banking lets us email up to $200 a day to a friend for very little.
Recently he received "Square One" to check out. It is a CC scanner / processor for your smart phone.
Now he says "Sure -- Give me your CC and I can scan it for you right now".
For most social situations, about money for the flowers, or a gang out for day at the zoo, it is not a problem. For those that are cheap, they don't want to look cheap in front of others, so they fork it over and never ask again. DH always looks great for being accomodating and helping someone through a "no cash on hand" day.
Of course DH is NTJ and I am not....
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I don't really care about looking cheap, if i'm not comfortable with someone 'owing' me, then I don't spend the money.
I'm not really into loaning people money. if I'm giving money to someone whether its friends or family, at work, or for whatever reason, i just consider it a gift, or an expense and move on. Sure, I might get paid back, but I don't expect to. Makes things a lot easier, and really narrows down the amounts i'm willing to give out and to who.
Yeah. Same here--I guess it depends on what you mean by 'lend'. I'm not really willing to lend people money (things, yes, money no). I'll "lend" i.e., "here's $20, and I don't care if you pay me back, but please just borrow it because I don't have time to stop by the ATM". But if someone asked for a legitimate loan (like $1K), I'd just say 'no.' Since I'm not willing to get into a fight with them over it, then it's not a loan, it's a gift, and that's a lot of money for a gift. I also don't lend out any physical item that I am not ok getting back broken.
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I have a sister who's borrowed thousands from almost every immediate family member and I'd be surprised if she's actually paid all or even half the money back. She does the same thing to banks...
In any case, she's gotten away with it because the family haven't pursued the issue. Though at this stage, there's a silent understanding that everyone's sick of her "loan" pleas and she doesn't bother anymore.
I can't stand the thought of owing money to anyone. If I do not repay a loan, it's because I genuinely forgot and appreciate any and all polite reminders. And all the loans are along the lines of forgetting cash, splitting bill for something, etc.
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I hate owing money to people and would rather be out a couple dollars than worry about someone thinking I owe them. But sometimes the numbers are big enough you have to "clear the tab." For example, earlier this year we went on vacation with another family. We covered our own transportation and split the lodging 50/50. But then there were groceries, restaurants, and activities for ourselves and our kids. I kept a running total of common things we both paid for, and so did they. After we got home, We compared the lists, confirmed the numbers, and settled up. We ended up owing them a couple hundred bucks. Funny thing is, they took about 6 weeks to cash the check... but at least I didn't worry about owing them money.
On another trip, I ended up short $25 or $50 when a group of us had a camping/mountain biking trip. But the trip was epic, we had a great time, and trying to collect $5 here and $10 there would just ruin the vibe.
Now actually loaning money to a friend? No thanks. Even with a note, I don't like it. If they are such a great friend, I would just give them any amount I would consider loaning them. If I get it back, then it confirms they value the friendship as much as I do. If not, then it's not the friendship I thought it was.
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Unless you're a bank, loaning money is a loser's proposition.
If I'm out with friends - someone buys. Doesn't matter who. Someone who's shitty at reciprocating gets dropped. Good friends - it doesn't matter if I paid or you paid, in the end it will even out so who cares?
If it's a larger sum of money - noooooooope.
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That's the ONLY way to do a group gift like that!
I've worked on a lot of performances, and it was tradition to get the director/choreographer/designer/etcetc a gift from the cast. If the person arranging the gifts says something like "If everyone gives $3, we'll be able to get this awesome thing for them!" But when you've got 20 people (or even just 5), some of whom might not have $3 to give or who wanted to give their own present or ANY REASON, you're not going to end up with $60. But the person organizing it will be thinking "it's only $3, everyone's got $3". It's not just inconsiderate to expect everyone to pay up, but you're putting your own damn self in the position of not being paid back if you buy something without everyone's prior agreement.
Same went for the cast parties. Somebody would go buy booze and think to themselves "OK, there were 30 people involved, so I can spend $5x30=$150 on alcohol." Guess what! Not everyone's drinking. Some bring their own drinks. Some are just moochers and don't or can't pay. We have had people out $100 because they overspent on alcohol before getting the money. After that, money was collected during rehearsals for the cast party and only that money was spent.
This crap happens at work more than I'd like. Email goes out "hey everyone this only costs $x so that's $y per person, email me by the end of the day!" There's a fair number of people in my department, so there's a lot of god damn birthdays / babies / funerals for people I don't interact with and don't feel like shoveling out $100 / month on flowers for. I don't think people are accustomed to "no I didn't respond to your email, I don't have money" but they are getting some experience with it now :).
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I handle these situations in the same manner as Frankie's girl. When I worked f.t. we would pass a card & a envelope around so you could feel free to donate or not.
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If I'm out with friends - someone buys. Doesn't matter who. Someone who's shitty at reciprocating gets dropped. Good friends - it doesn't matter if I paid or you paid, in the end it will even out so who cares?
Yep.
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Wow, I'm surprised at some of the responses. People stressing over getting paid back a few bucks or less.
Personally anything under $10-$20 (depending on how close a friend) I don't expect back and rarely ask for it (and almost always get paid back anyway). But if I haven't gotten paid back and I'm asked to borrow them money again I simply refuse and say "You never paid me back the last time you borrowed from me" and either they pay me within a few days (because they had legitimately forgot) or they never ask again because they then realize I'm not one of those people who can't say no.
For those people who are always trying to borrow money and not pay you back I feel the few bucks they "owe" me is well worth the piece of mind from them not constantly asking me anymore. That makes them the "bad guy" for not paying me back instead of me for being a tightwad. Although I really don't care what they think of me, I've just learned it's easier to have certain people "owe" me than to have to come up with excuses or tell them no all the time.
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I had this happen to me when I first started working - co-worker was short cash (this was 1976, no ATMs, debit cards, etc., banking was in person). I loaned him $5 (almost $20 now). He made more than me, was single, no great expenses, so sure - I would get it back the next payday. Payday came and went, no money. I had to ask him more than once, he seemed surprised that I would bother. But - $5 was a lot to me at that point. So he paid it back, and never asked again. I would not have lent to him again anyway. And that made me create my own personal policy - I didn't lend to anyone for anything.
Fortunately Canada is good for individual cheques for restaurants, so splitting up a big tab hasn't come up much. And people ask about cards and gifts. It helps to hang out with frugal people.
Promissory notes - we wanted to buy the lot next to our house and didn't have the money - my Dad loaned it to us, at the same interest rate he would have received from a savings account (to keep Revenue Canada off his back), and we signed an informal loan agreement. Like Babysnowbyrd I wrote the loan info in the memo part of each cheque. My DH thought this was incredibly cold, but if my Dad had dropped dead suddenly that made it part of his estate and protected my Mom and sister. I thought it was sensible.
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So I have been guilty of using the phrase "borrow" when I mean "give." I don't think I'm alone there. Example: Hey can I borrow a dollar here so that I can tip the bartender?" If it's under $5, my expectation is that I'll buy them a drink at the next bar or the next time we're out.
I do this a lot less now. It's amazing what growing up and having small bills will do for you on Friday night.
We all know people who are takers. We all know people who are givers. It seems that the mustachian consensus is to be neither, and not to play the game at all.
A common situation is the split check at a restaurant for a group meal (doesn't matter if it's a birthday). Often you have people that don't count tax to their bill, pay for a share of the apps, or are short on cash. That's why I suck it up and usually kick in an extra couple bucks (it's karma). Part of the price of a group restaurant meal is making financial decisions at the lowest common financial denominator. What really irks me is when we get terrible service--seems to happen more on a group meal--and then someone insists that we all tip 25 percent on the group check because "they worked in food service" and know how it is--yeah, I worked in food service too, and want to tell the server's manager that the server is rude and bad at their job--wow /end rant.
tldr: Cut the moochers off, they're deadweight. Forgive your friends. Figure out how to tell the difference.
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Once I was out of the country and a co-worker's father passed away. A friend chipped in $7 on my behalf for the office to send flowers to the funeral. I was away for almost a year, then had a major medical issue... long story short I paid her back that $7 3 or 4 years later. It drove me bonkers that it took so long and my friend thought it hilarious how bothered I was to pay her back. IMHO it is a matter of honor, plain and simple.
I spent YEARS learning to say no to people who ask for X, Y and Z to include money. In hindsight, it was my desire to be a pleaser, to be liked, that I allowed myself to ignore my instincts and loan money to people.
And public shaming helps. Nothing like mentioning the ongoing debt in front of a group of people to open up a slacker's wallet.
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I wonder what it says that nobody has ever asked me for a loan? Talking about a real loan, not workplace nickel and dime stuff. Helps that there's nobody in my family that would need such a thing.
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I'm one of "the givers". I get stuck with the bill sometimes and I routinely overpay because I know how much that sucks and I'm always worried that it'll happen to someone else in the group because others didn't kick in enough. I remember walking out of one restaurant realizing that I just paid $80 for a salad and a glass of water. That sucked, but I didn't want to ask for money. It was my sister and her husband, and they're always so generous, that other people take advantage of them routinely. What sucks the most is that when I chip in like that, they don't even realize that it's their friends that are being the douches. Just last week I paid $20 for a glass of beer ($6.50). I didn't want to ask for change from my colleague that was collecting the cash.
When giving a group gift, I've found that if I have people pay up when they sign the card, otherwise, they're not on the card. One place where I get ripped off too is when I say something is $10 per person and then couples will throw in $10 for BOTH of them. Hello? for a birthday present, why should it cost me double because I'm single?
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Just as a quick follow up, hubby was paid back minus some odd dollars or change. Regardless, it's hard with money and people. You really have to choose your battles on whether or not you want to make an issue out of it, or simply decline. And sometimes it's not so simply to even decline!
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If you're going to lend money to a friend, have them execute a demand promissory note in which they promise to repay the loan on demand plus any attorney's fees in the event you need to collect on the note through the court system.
I've actually done this, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
If the friend won't agree to that, don't lend them money.
^Truth
I'd also add: Never loan money you are 'ok' not getting back.
Others might not be so considerate when it comes to paying you back, and as it has been previously mentioned on here, unfortunately human nature is just that way.
Ultimately, I'll still loan money when asked but have been burnt once or twice, so I always keep a record and don't 'expect' to get paid back.
If the worst happens and I don't get paid back - I just chalk it up as relatively small price to pay to get that person out of my life.
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I "loan" money, sizeable chunks of money, quite a bit - this is by far my biggest financial weakness. I never expect to see it again, if I do it's a pleasant surprise. It usually is people who people who are lower-income, single parents etc. and this doesn't bother me - I chalk it up as "charitable giving" just minus the tax receipt.
On the other hand, the work "group" gifts irk me to no end (with the exception of temporary students) since our lowest-paid employee earns in the 50k range and the vast majority earn 6-figures. Apart from family and close friends, I can't stand giving (gifts or money) to people who have solid incomes with no extraordinary needs.
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Your word is your bond. If someone can't keep their word, they have lost their integrity and can no longer be trusted. If you think the intent was to not pay you back, it's unlikely you'll ever get the money short of hounding the person. I would stop associating with them in every way possible because we take up the habits of the people we're around and I quite value integrity myself.