Author Topic: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)  (Read 3248 times)

Zeratul

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Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« on: February 20, 2017, 03:00:17 AM »
Hi.

My last thread was an initial learning phase before I began really researching into MMM/FI/etc. Well I made a bunch of moves since then and have learned a ton, so thank you for the insight.

I sold my house, in a week. Sold for 50k higher than I bought <2 years ago (pretty good investment eh?). Going back to renting and not tying myself down to real estate until i'm married w/ kids. Heres where I stand now

24 y.o
145-175k salary
120k in 1% MoneyMarket
20k in VTSAX (vanguard)
Traditional 401K to company match (It was maxed, changed it, see notes)
15k in IRA (wealthfront, converting to vanguard)
5k in ROTH IRA (wealthfront, converting to vanguard)
<2k in hand-picked OTC stocks for fun
** $0 DEBT **

I have read the book "A simple path to life" and jlcollins gave me a strong impression of why investing in 100% VTSAX is a great idea (i've also read ton of research online on forums and etc). I have learned from an investing mistake in the past not to sell, so i'm not worried about the volatility. I think i'm going to do a 90/10 VTSAX VTBLX portfolio. I know it's never good to time the market and I am missing out on a lot of gains, but given the political spectrum I don't know if I feel comfortable dumping all of my money in what could be the peak of another economic setback. He also seems to be focused on repealing a lot of the regulations that were put in place after 2008 and just a whole different level of fuckery that no president has done before. Forgive me dear MMM for breaking the "don't wait" rule, but does anyone empathize with me?

401K - I was maxed out but I don't think I want to do that anymore. I don't want to live for a massive retirement portfolio, I don't care about being stupid rich when I am 59.5. I want to make money now and enjoy my life now while I am young and healthy and active. I think I will still make a ton of money in my 401k if I do company match anyway, but I will miss out on $9000 of tax deductions. Oh well.

I just wanted to say, and maybe this deserves its own separate thread, I find these forums and several other forums and advice to be so focused on retirement. In this country everyone is just so focused on retirement, we hear about it every day on TV, in the news, in social circles. We try to work so hard to make money for that, but we miss out on living it up while we are in the prime of our lives. I see too many people here nickle and diming things that don't need to be, sure it will help you get to FI/RE faster, but what is the point of life if you can't enjoy yourself? This is sorta philosophical, I just feel like I need to get it off of my chest because every single thread I read is about the money you will own during retirement.

Thank you all.

somers515

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 03:58:27 AM »
I have read the book "A simple path to life" and jlcollins gave me a strong impression of why investing in 100% VTSAX is a great idea (i've also read ton of research online on forums and etc). I have learned from an investing mistake in the past not to sell, so i'm not worried about the volatility. I think i'm going to do a 90/10 VTSAX VTBLX portfolio. I know it's never good to time the market and I am missing out on a lot of gains, but given the political spectrum I don't know if I feel comfortable dumping all of my money in what could be the peak of another economic setback. He also seems to be focused on repealing a lot of the regulations that were put in place after 2008 and just a whole different level of fuckery that no president has done before. Forgive me dear MMM for breaking the "don't wait" rule, but does anyone empathize with me?

401K - I was maxed out but I don't think I want to do that anymore. I don't want to live for a massive retirement portfolio, I don't care about being stupid rich when I am 59.5. I want to make money now and enjoy my life now while I am young and healthy and active. I think I will still make a ton of money in my 401k if I do company match anyway, but I will miss out on $9000 of tax deductions. Oh well.

I can empathize with not wanting to put a huge amount of money in at one time even if that's the "right" thing to do.  At least DCA (dollar cost average) it in though.  Also if you are so worried about this president then why not have a portfolio that includes an international fund too.

Also I think you should max out your 401k.  That isn't just 59.5 money.  I originally misunderstood that concept too.  There are ways to get that money out before you hit 59.5 without penalty.

Sounds like you are off to a great start - good luck!  Keep reporting back how you are doing if you think of it.

MrMathMustache

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 06:02:17 AM »

24 y.o
145-175k salary

I see too many people here nickle and diming things that don't need to be, sure it will help you get to FI/RE faster, but what is the point of life if you can't enjoy yourself? This is sorta philosophical, I just feel like I need to get it off of my chest because every single thread I read is about the money you will own during retirement.


I can get on board with you generally - I wouldn't want to live a miserable life in my 20's, 30's and 40's simply to enjoy my 50's and later.  BUT, the degree to which people have to "nickel and dime" varies quite a bit based on age, income, and family circumstances.  Respectfully, there aren't exactly a ton of 24 y.o.'s earning $145-175k with zero debt, and maybe you can afford to be a bit more "philosophical" than others.

mandy_2002

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 06:27:56 AM »
There are several ways to access your 401k savings before 59.5. (SEPP, which must continue long term and one time taxed rollovers done in low earning years after retirement into RothIRA's, whose principle cam be accessed 5 years after the roll over - I believe.) By not investing in a 401k now, you are giving up 28% of $9,000 every year, $2,520 that you could be saving for yourself instead of letting the US government spend how they see fit.

I would much rather be free at 32 than work until I'm 60 "living it up." I'm living it up now doing whatever the heck I want, but I have pretty inexpensive tastes.

ltt

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 06:28:47 AM »
You are 24.  Try being close to retirement with no money.  There have been several posts on this forum from children whose parents are retired or close to retirement with no money or in severe debt.  Not fun! 

You make plenty of money now to enjoy it now, as well as have the opportunity to put a great amount towards retirement to enjoy later also.  You can do both!  Not many people can do that.  And you are young with no dependents, so enjoying life now shouldn't cost you that much.

And, typically, there are hard times ahead.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who hasn't had hard times ahead. I can almost guarantee you that you will think differently in a few decades, especially as you approach 50.  That is when all kinds of things pop up medically/healthwise.

By the way, $120k in a 1% money market??  Is this earmarked for something?  You are off to a great start!  Keep investing.  You will be glad you did.




plog

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 07:08:53 AM »
Quote
He also seems to be focused on repealing a lot of the regulations that were put in place after 2008 and just a whole different level of fuckery that no president has done before.

I know shitting on the president (no matter who that is) has replaced baseball as the national pastime, but from a practical standpoint, if anything the roll-back of those regulations will penultimately help the stock market.  May not be the best in the super-long term, but I wouldn't fret putting money in now because of it. 

ltt

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2017, 07:20:44 AM »
Quote
He also seems to be focused on repealing a lot of the regulations that were put in place after 2008 and just a whole different level of fuckery that no president has done before.

I know shitting on the president (no matter who that is) has replaced baseball as the national pastime, but from a practical standpoint, if anything the roll-back of those regulations will penultimately help the stock market.  May not be the best in the super-long term, but I wouldn't fret putting money in now because of it.

Yes, you are quite right about this.

meandmyfamily

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2017, 07:47:32 AM »
I completely agree with this:  You make plenty of money now to enjoy it now, as well as have the opportunity to put a great amount towards retirement to enjoy later also.  You can do both!  Not many people can do that.  And you are young with no dependents, so enjoying life now shouldn't cost you that much.


Laura33

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2017, 08:01:27 AM »
I just wanted to say, and maybe this deserves its own separate thread, I find these forums and several other forums and advice to be so focused on retirement. In this country everyone is just so focused on retirement, we hear about it every day on TV, in the news, in social circles. We try to work so hard to make money for that, but we miss out on living it up while we are in the prime of our lives. I see too many people here nickle and diming things that don't need to be, sure it will help you get to FI/RE faster, but what is the point of life if you can't enjoy yourself? This is sorta philosophical, I just feel like I need to get it off of my chest because every single thread I read is about the money you will own during retirement.

So, I think there is a strain of this, for sure.  But the bigger-picture is that it is about freedom -- however you define it.  For many people, including MMM, that means freedom to walk away from a job forever in your 30s.  But other people like their jobs, or don't want to quit for whatever reason.  For them, freedom means being able to go part-time, or being able to take a lower-paying job that they find really interesting, or having FU money to walk from a bad job without anything lined up.  The point is for Current You to build yourself a big stash now so Future You has options. 

I say this with all love and with the best possible intention:  bad shit will come your way.  In the past 25 years, I have had awesome jobs and horrible jobs; I met a wonderful guy who I never expected to and then had to move across the country away from my awesome job when he got caught in the tech crash [followed my two more moves when subsequent jobs went away]; we have two wonderful kids, but only after repeated miscarriages and fertility treatments; we have been unable to sell a house when the local job market crashed -- followed by moving back east right in the middle of the housing boom, when home prices were 50% higher than where we came from; etc. etc. etc.  And we have made stupid decisions, like buying a 2-door car about 2 years before deciding to have kids, and losing an early offer on the-house-that-didn't-sell because of the hot tub.

You also don't yet know what Future You will want.  When I was 25, I wanted to be on the Supreme Court.  25 years later and that whole career achievement thing feels sort of hollow -- really truly, almost everything that mattered *so much* when I was your age I just honestly don't give much of a shit about now.  I'm thinking part-time sounds really good while I figure out what I want next.  Not that I was "wrong" then or am "wrong" now -- the point is that I am a different person than I was half a lifetime ago, and I want different things.

What you are building now is your foundation for handling all the shit that you can't yet identify, both internal and external.  Frankly, financially, DH and I have sailed through the whole list of things above, because we always kept our expenses down to one income.  I am in a position to go half-time if I decide that's what I really want, because of that same choice.  And if we had kept our lifestyle a little more under control, I could quit entirely. 

You are in an awesome position to save a giant wad of cash while still being able to enjoy plenty of fun along the way.  Just remember to keep the lifestyle inflation in check, and you'll do fine. 

And PS -- don't be afraid of the 401(k), there are ways to get the money out before you hit 59.5.

caracarn

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2017, 08:43:33 AM »
To the OP, I have several thoughts and comments on your position.

First, I'm not sure if you are aware how incredibly blessed you are to be in your position.  Regardless of age, that level of income is very rare.  Don't want to believe me?  Find one of those online sites that let's you put in your income compared to the world and your given country and you will find you are in great shape, in the top .05% in the world using $170K as your income.  I'm finally in that income range but I'm a few decades older than you.  You do not seem to acknowledge that you realize your unique position in any way, and just wanting to make that observation directly to start.

My next point is regarding your last paragraph.  I think you need to realize you are on an early retirement website.  Many of the people focusing on retirement here are not looking in their 50s or 60s they are looking into their 30s and 40s, so keep that in mind when you see that most discussions here are on retirement.  A previous poster commented that it is more about freedom and I would agree with that.  Couple that with my earlier point about how blessed anyone is to be at this point and it changes your perspective a bit.  I have found a little bit of word play has helped me immensely in my life.  Instead of the overtly negative "I have to", such as "to retire I have to work hard, save money" change it to "to retire I get to work hard, save money".  You get to save a huge amount of money, which will be a much lower percentage of your income than others.  At $150,000 you could save $75,000/year and still save more than some of the folks doing well on this board who only  make $60K a year.  This is a privilege and it can be hard to see that at 24. 

Some earlier posters also talked about preparing for the unknown.  I'm old enough that when I started working the belief was still that you find a great job and you stick with it for 40+ years and retire there.  The company and you form a partnership and that is how life works.  About ten years after I started my working life, that social "contract" got placed in the garbage disposal and shortly after that I got let go from a job that was paying be $120K over 15 years ago (so you could argue equivalent to your pay now).  It had nothing to do with my performance.  Everyone loved me and I had great reviews.  It was just "business" and sales had tanked and my position was eliminated as they had someone who was paid half what I made who could do the job halfway across the country and manage my team remotely.  I have been blessed enough that my path has continued in a very good track since then, but it could have, and for many of my friends and colleagues did, turn out very differently.  The shift I spoke of occurred for me in the space of two short years where I went from feeling very stable and thinking I had another thirty years at the company I was at, to being sent out the door.  I do not wish that experience on anyone, but even in today's well understood environment of little company loyalty and longevity more people are surprised rather than not.  Having money set aside for the rainy day versus spent on endless frivolity is never a bad thing, and I believe nearly everyone on this board will agree with that given the mindset that is attracted to these forums.

You have more than enough money to do both, as many people have said, and I would concur.  You have the luxury of saving a massive amount of money by the standards of 95% of the US population, and still having a massive amount of money to enjoy yourself.  Assuming you began your working career a couple years back at a similar income level, that savings you have would indicate you have been holding the purse string pretty tight so I can understand your desire to loosen up a bit in your youth.  I think you can release another $20-40K/year from going to future savings and still be on the road to a huge savings pile very quickly.  Obviously you need to determine  if your retired lifestyle will require $100K a year or more, but hopefully you pick up some of the other lessons of this site that one can have a whole lot of awesome experiences and not spend a lot of money.

Finally, with regards to the investing climate, I think one can always point to some trouble on the horizon.  You've got a long enough time window where I would say you've got nothing to worry about.  Keep in mind that I am still at a 90/10 mix on my investments at a time in life when most would say I should be 60/40, so my risk aversion is a lot lower than most.  I subscribe to the comment made by someone discussing Bogle's index fund investing process that "investing in index funds will not outperform the market, but it will outperform your neighbor".  In the end your lifestyle will be determined more by how you outpace your neighbor than by what your total is.  I do not share the utopian view of some here that removal of regulation will be a net good.  I think lack of regulation caused the financial crisis we just went to and I do not believe memory of what occurred will outweigh greed.  Given the same open range, I feel institutions will make horrific decisions that will cause massive crashes again, so I'm not a fan of significant rollback.  But I do feel that whatever occurs, the US markets will still be leaders compared to our neighbors and if that changes I'll change my mix in international versus domestic.  It's all about outperforming your neighbors.  In the end I still feel our corporate environment gives us many more tools to do that and therefore I'm bullish on US prospects regardless of what the president does. 

Zeratul

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2017, 10:31:13 AM »
Thank you all for the prompt and enlightening responses. I do understand i'm in a privileged position and I promise you I do not take it for granted. I grew up in poverty so I understand the value of money and I still support my parents financially, they have $0 in retirement funds and it's because they just were never in a position to.

I still spend money like I did when I was early in my career making $50k. I don't feel like i'm wealthy even though i'm in the top ~3-5% because I sure as hell don't act like it.

I tried to understand the 401K early-withdrawal but maybe I need to go back and re-read it. If there is a way i'd be able to withdraw then maybe I should max it.

So is everyone in favor of easing into the market with $100k (keeping 20 for emergency) or just buying all-in?

Laura33

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2017, 11:39:53 AM »
About ten years after I started my working life, that social "contract" got placed in the garbage disposal and shortly after that I got let go from a job that was paying be $120K over 15 years ago (so you could argue equivalent to your pay now).  It had nothing to do with my performance.  Everyone loved me and I had great reviews.  It was just "business" and sales had tanked and my position was eliminated as they had someone who was paid half what I made who could do the job halfway across the country and manage my team remotely. 

This, exactly.

When I was @34 and 8 months pregnant, DH's company announced a shutdown.  We were in our "forever" home and felt safe, because we had specifically chosen a town with 5 other potential employers for DH.  We didn't realize that 3 of those would also shut down, one would lay off, and the last wouldn't hire, all at the same time.  We chose to move for a new job, and to be completely honest, part of me has never gotten over selling that house.  One of DH's friends had kids in HS and chose to stay put and ended up delivering pizzas to make ends meet, because that was the only job left he could find.  Those were our two choices at the time. 

Now our DD is about to turn 16.  And if the same thing happened again, we'd tighten up on our current totally frivolous spending, tell our kids that college = state schools or scholarships, and declare FIRE.  Eh, maybe he'd look for a new job (not me, I'm ready to be done); maybe we'd move if the opportunity and location seemed completely awesome (yeah, no, I'm staying put).  But I cannot even begin to tell you how much less stressful my life is now, just knowing that I do not need to turn everything upside-down again just to pay my bills.

Tl;dr:  You want to be old me while you are still young.

Re: invest now vs. DCA:  I don't personally care.  I'm all for just dumping it in and calling it good, but whatever you feel comfortable doing is a win over just letting it sit there.

somers515

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2017, 11:49:57 AM »
I tried to understand the 401K early-withdrawal but maybe I need to go back and re-read it. If there is a way i'd be able to withdraw then maybe I should max it.

So is everyone in favor of easing into the market with $100k (keeping 20 for emergency) or just buying all-in?

In your position there is no way I wouldn't max your 401k.  You are right to re-read about being able to withdraw early without penalty if you missed that key fact before.  There is a sticky thread because this question comes up so often.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/how-to-withdraw-funds-from-your-ira-and-401k-without-penalty-before-age-59-5/

True investors would say go all in now with your 100k but I totally get the idea of easing in too.  Do as much as you are comfortable doing.

Sounds like you should also come up with investment plan for yourself.  This helps to guide your financial decisions.  Decide how much of an emergency fund you want and at what speed you'll enter the market with the rest and stick to it.  Good luck!

trollwithamustache

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2017, 05:13:47 PM »
Another pro-401k argument: retirement assets have a higher level of protection if you are sued.  This isn't a bid deal while young but later if you have assets and property its worthwhile to sue you.  ie do you see yourself ever buying a rental as many on this board do?

I agree with all the posters that its still worth it to max out the 401k for the reasons others have stated, this is just an extra.  You will probably also change jobs a lot, so roll the 401k over into different rollover IRA accounts and then you have more control and can do things like the ROTH conversions if that makes sense to do.

Rimu05

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Re: Young mustachian looking for advice pt.2 (401k, lump sums, etc)
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 02:42:18 PM »
Hi.

My last thread was an initial learning phase before I began really researching into MMM/FI/etc. Well I made a bunch of moves since then and have learned a ton, so thank you for the insight.

I sold my house, in a week. Sold for 50k higher than I bought <2 years ago (pretty good investment eh?). Going back to renting and not tying myself down to real estate until i'm married w/ kids. Heres where I stand now

24 y.o
145-175k salary
120k in 1% MoneyMarket
20k in VTSAX (vanguard)
Traditional 401K to company match (It was maxed, changed it, see notes)
15k in IRA (wealthfront, converting to vanguard)
5k in ROTH IRA (wealthfront, converting to vanguard)
<2k in hand-picked OTC stocks for fun
** $0 DEBT **

I have read the book "A simple path to life" and jlcollins gave me a strong impression of why investing in 100% VTSAX is a great idea (i've also read ton of research online on forums and etc). I have learned from an investing mistake in the past not to sell, so i'm not worried about the volatility. I think i'm going to do a 90/10 VTSAX VTBLX portfolio. I know it's never good to time the market and I am missing out on a lot of gains, but given the political spectrum I don't know if I feel comfortable dumping all of my money in what could be the peak of another economic setback. He also seems to be focused on repealing a lot of the regulations that were put in place after 2008 and just a whole different level of fuckery that no president has done before. Forgive me dear MMM for breaking the "don't wait" rule, but does anyone empathize with me?

401K - I was maxed out but I don't think I want to do that anymore. I don't want to live for a massive retirement portfolio, I don't care about being stupid rich when I am 59.5. I want to make money now and enjoy my life now while I am young and healthy and active. I think I will still make a ton of money in my 401k if I do company match anyway, but I will miss out on $9000 of tax deductions. Oh well.

I just wanted to say, and maybe this deserves its own separate thread, I find these forums and several other forums and advice to be so focused on retirement. In this country everyone is just so focused on retirement, we hear about it every day on TV, in the news, in social circles. We try to work so hard to make money for that, but we miss out on living it up while we are in the prime of our lives. I see too many people here nickle and diming things that don't need to be, sure it will help you get to FI/RE faster, but what is the point of life if you can't enjoy yourself? This is sorta philosophical, I just feel like I need to get it off of my chest because every single thread I read is about the money you will own during retirement.

Thank you all.

I can completely relate to some of this post but your salary is way better than mine but we are close in age and I recall I started a post here on whether I should care about FIRE in my twenties because I am yearning to travel, live in other countries, and interact with people from around the world. Unfortunately, I have stayed put as I have debt, but I can't shake the feeling that once my student loans are paid off. I'm going to still live frugally but travel the world for a while.

We all have different goals, but if I had your salary, I might honestly, stick around for a about five years then clock out. You have the type of salary that could grant you financial independence in a few years. You are pretty much way ahead in this race.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 02:44:28 PM by Rimu05 »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!