Author Topic: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest  (Read 3100 times)

LibStache

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Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« on: September 16, 2020, 06:09:50 AM »
Hi,
I'm stuck trying to figure out an age-old dilemma; pay off student loans, or invest.  These student loans are actually my husband's.  $56,734 at 4.625% to be exact. And they are federal loans. We currently pay $350/mo on them and have about $2300 extra per month to either put towards the student loans, or invest.  I am itching to invest that money and wonder if the student loan interest rate is low enough that investing would be the better option.  What would you do in my position?

terran

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2020, 07:02:46 AM »
The recommended investment order sticky suggest you max out all available tax advantaged accounts (other than 529s) before paying off debt with that interest rate, but paying off the debt before investing in a taxable account. With a current 10-year Treasury note yield of only 0.667% the cutoff suggested by the post is only about 1% more than your interest rate. How much of an emergency fund do you have? How much are you currently contributing to tax advantaged accounts?

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2020, 07:12:49 AM »
Thank you for your reply!  We currently have about $20,000 in an emergency fund and only about $26,000 invested in index funds, both of us currently only contribute the 5% necessary for our respective employers' matches.  Which is why I'm itching to start throwing everything at our investment accounts.

DadJokes

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 07:18:10 AM »
As terran said, investing is going to be the most optimal choice, more often than not.

I'm more debt averse and would pay them off if I were in your shoes. Being debt free provides flexibility that can't be quantified.

However, you'll be fine with either choice.

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 08:13:49 AM »
Thank you!  Yes, I think that's why I struggle so much with this decision.  I want so badly to start investing, but the student loan debt just sitting there really bothers me!  Eventually (around 2038 they would be forgiven, as all federal student loans are after 20 or 25 years) with the remaining balance applied to our taxable income for that year.  However, that is a very long time to just let them ride out.  If we went all out and paid the $350+$2320 toward them each month, they'd be paid off in about 23 months.  I just worry that the extra $2320 per month for those 23 months would've been better spent by being invested.  Or, would it really not make much of a difference?

Rosy

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2020, 08:15:47 AM »
It doesn't have to be an "either-or" choice.

1. You could for instance double that monthly $350 student loan payment - thereby cutting your pay off time into less than half.
Then invest the remaining $1600 out of the $2300 that you have extra each month.

2. The $350 is a rather small payment and given that you have a decent EF - you could stick with it, but once a year triple the amount to shorten the pay off time by a year or so.
OR - You could arbitrarily pick $500 as your new payment amount and invest the rest.

3. You could decide (together with) your husband that since they are his student loans, he will throw all of his extra money - bonus, windfalls, gifts throughout the year toward the payoff of his debt to speed up payoff.

4. There is always the 50% solution - send half to debt and half to investments, but in your case I don't like that idea for two reasons:
You are still at the beginning of your journey - time is on your side - make the best use of it, which means invest as much as you can so compounding interest will kick in and you make it past that first $100K on to 250K.
That $350 will mean less and less to you as time goes on and if things go right and the opportunity arises you can and will hasten payoff.
In the interim you could still employ your own version of my other suggestions or even ask DH to consider a side gig just to pay off his student loans.

As long as you have a decent EF and could live on one salary at any time you'll be golden. I think that you are right, concentrating on payoff of this long term debt right now is not a good idea. Build your investments first and foremost you will thank your future self.
Who cares how long it takes to pay off the student loan?, it's not like you can't afford that $350. For now pay the required $350 and invest like crazy.
You will never get this time (to stash and invest) back, so don't let his debt steal both of your futures.

You can always re-visit this issue if your situation changes - but it is incredibly hard to impossible to catch up on building your stash.
You can't buy back time - use it to your advantage.

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2020, 08:25:39 AM »
Rosy, thank you so much!!  I really appreciate your response!  For what it's worth, I am 33 and husband is 36, so even though we still have time on our sides, I certainly wish we were further along investment-wise at his point.  I'm not sure if that would change any part of your suggestions but I definitely feel like we don't have time to waste in getting as much money as we can invested.  Thanks, again!

therethere

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 08:28:07 AM »
If you are confident you will pay them off eventually (no cash flow issues, no need for fed protections), I would refinance them to a lower rate to whatever term length or payment you're comfortable with. Then I'd just pay the minimums and invest the excess. Then forget about it. Well, I mostly forgot about it. But also looked to refinance the loans about once every year as my investment stash and income increased giving me lower rates.

I did this with my student loans around 2015 and set 5% as my cutoff. I paid or refinanced all my loans that were >5%. I'm a spreadsheet nerd and kept track of my "extra payments" which were really sent to my brokerage to buy VTSAX. By my calcs my extra payments have earned ~36,000 in gains and I've paid 9,000 in excess interest. So I'm basically ahead 26k. Even when the market hit the low point in mid-March, I had only lost $100. And I still have the money in my brokerage account to payoff the loans if I ever want. I didn't pick the longest repayment terms when I refinanced, but rather one that was a good mix of low rate and length.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 08:35:12 AM by therethere »

erutio

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 08:33:09 AM »
...both of us currently only contribute the 5% necessary for our respective employers' matches.  Which is why I'm itching to start throwing everything at our investment accounts.

With this information, you should be putting your extra $2300 per month into your tax-advantaged spaces (HSA if available, IRAs, 401ks).   You will probably be short of maxing out.  Just keep your $350 payments on autopilot and forget about them.

Can the loans be refinanced to a lower rate?

therethere

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 08:37:12 AM »
Ah, I missed the only 5% contributions to retirement. Refinance your loans and max out all your tax-advantaged space first. It's a no brainer.

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 08:55:39 AM »
If you are confident you will pay them off eventually (no cash flow issues, no need for fed protections), I would refinance them to a lower rate to whatever term length or payment you're comfortable with. Then I'd just pay the minimums and invest the excess. Then forget about it. Well, I mostly forgot about it. But also looked to refinance the loans about once every year as my investment stash and income increased giving me lower rates.

I did this with my student loans around 2015 and set 5% as my cutoff. I paid or refinanced all my loans that were >5%. I'm a spreadsheet nerd and kept track of my "extra payments" which were really sent to my brokerage to buy VTSAX. By my calcs my extra payments have earned ~36,000 in gains and I've paid 9,000 in excess interest. So I'm basically ahead 26k. Even when the market hit the low point in mid-March, I had only lost $100. And I still have the money in my brokerage account to payoff the loans if I ever want. I didn't pick the longest repayment terms when I refinanced, but rather one that was a good mix of low rate and length.

I actually considered refinancing them and got a rate quote from SoFi, but it was higher than what we're already paying.  I believe it was around 5-5.5%.  I have not checked other lenders though.  Any you recommend?

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 08:57:23 AM »
Ah, I missed the only 5% contributions to retirement. Refinance your loans and max out all your tax-advantaged space first. It's a no brainer.

Awesome, thanks for the advice!

nereo

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 09:11:56 AM »
Eventually (around 2038 they would be forgiven, as all federal student loans are after 20 or 25 years) with the remaining balance applied to our taxable income for that year. 

The statement above concerns me.  To my knowledge ALL federal student loans are NOT forgiven after 20 or 25 years, and unless you keep up with very specific debt forgiveness guidelines you may be in for a rude awakening. Generally federal student loan forgiveness occurs ONLY if you remain enrolled in an income-based repayment plan, or if you are in a Public Service Student Loan Forgiveness program. Your income - now or in the future - may disqualify you from loan forgiveness via the Income-Based Repayment options.  Likewise, a career change can nullify the Public Service debt forgiveness route...

That said, I would definitely fund your tax-advantaged accounts FIRST until they are maxed out, before applying any additional payments towards your SLs.  4.6% isn't that high of a hurdle, and there may be loan forgiveness for you (but please look into this more thoroughly).

therethere

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 09:39:45 AM »
I actually considered refinancing them and got a rate quote from SoFi, but it was higher than what we're already paying.  I believe it was around 5-5.5%.  I have not checked other lenders though.  Any you recommend?

I've refinanced through Earnest multiple times and would definitely recommend them. Sofi always quoted me higher rates than I was paying too. From what I gathered Earnest gives you a lot of credit for your assets like cash/retirement accounts. And Sofi rates we more based on your income. Credible.com is a quote aggregator site and may provide some other companies with low rates.

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 09:46:40 AM »
I actually considered refinancing them and got a rate quote from SoFi, but it was higher than what we're already paying.  I believe it was around 5-5.5%.  I have not checked other lenders though.  Any you recommend?

I've refinanced through Earnest multiple times and would definitely recommend them. Sofi always quoted me higher rates than I was paying too. From what I gathered Earnest gives you a lot of credit for your assets like cash/retirement accounts. And Sofi rates we more based on your income. Credible.com is a quote aggregator site and may provide some other companies with low rates.

That is really good to know!  I will definitely check them out.

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 11:22:13 AM »
Eventually (around 2038 they would be forgiven, as all federal student loans are after 20 or 25 years) with the remaining balance applied to our taxable income for that year. 

The statement above concerns me.  To my knowledge ALL federal student loans are NOT forgiven after 20 or 25 years, and unless you keep up with very specific debt forgiveness guidelines you may be in for a rude awakening. Generally federal student loan forgiveness occurs ONLY if you remain enrolled in an income-based repayment plan, or if you are in a Public Service Student Loan Forgiveness program. Your income - now or in the future - may disqualify you from loan forgiveness via the Income-Based Repayment options.  Likewise, a career change can nullify the Public Service debt forgiveness route...

That said, I would definitely fund your tax-advantaged accounts FIRST until they are maxed out, before applying any additional payments towards your SLs.  4.6% isn't that high of a hurdle, and there may be loan forgiveness for you (but please look into this more thoroughly).

Wow, you are exactly right!  I don't know why I was under the impression that all federal student loans were forgiven after 25 years (20 if you borrowed after 2014), it IS only the IBR plans.  So that definitely adds a complication to my plan.  At the moment, my husband does qualify for an IBR payment which is the plan he is currently under, but he has to reapply each year.  At some point in the future before 2038 as his income increases and the student loan balance decreases, I'm sure he'll no longer qualify.  At that point we could just start making a standard payment, but I wonder how much of a hit we'd take because we hadn't made much headway in paying down the principal.  We do cover all of the interest and about $125 of the principal each month now with the $350 payment.

Do you still think it's worth it to invest first?

nereo

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 11:33:17 AM »

Do you still think it's worth it to invest first?

Yes, particularly if you have additional space in your tax-advantaged accounts (e.g. IRAs, 401(k)/403(b), HSA).
See the Investment Order for more details as to why (link embedded)

LibStache

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 11:44:40 AM »

Do you still think it's worth it to invest first?

Yes, particularly if you have additional space in your tax-advantaged accounts (e.g. IRAs, 401(k)/403(b), HSA).
See the Investment Order for more details as to why (link embedded)

Thank you so much!

washingtonteach

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 05:25:13 PM »
All student loans are forgiven after 20 or 25 years. The reason you have to be on IBR is because your payments are lowered based on your income. With the lower payments and interest they basically never go down. I am a teacher with $17,000 in debt and am on IBR. I still basically owe $17,000 after 8 years! But they will be forgiven for me in 2 years so it is all good!

My point is, if you aren't on IBR there is no way it will take you 20 years to pay off your loans. Student loans are designed to take 10 years to pay off.

For what it is worth, I would keep my loans with the federal government instead of private. You never know, a new president could change the rules to your benefit.

nereo

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 05:29:56 PM »
All student loans are forgiven after 20 or 25 years. The reason you have to be on IBR is because your payments are lowered based on your income. With the lower payments and interest they basically never go down. I am a teacher with $17,000 in debt and am on IBR. I still basically owe $17,000 after 8 years! But they will be forgiven for me in 2 years so it is all good!

My point is, if you aren't on IBR there is no way it will take you 20 years to pay off your loans. Student loans are designed to take 10 years to pay off.

For what it is worth, I would keep my loans with the federal government instead of private. You never know, a new president could change the rules to your benefit.

Except if you miss payments, or no longer qualify for IBR. That’s the key here. You can be on IBR for 16 years before switching careers for a big salary increase, and then be on the hook for the sizable remainder. Or if you default your loans are no longer in good standing, and you won’t qualify for loan forgiveness.

They have been a few who have come through here after deciding not to make payments on their IBR plans because they were close to the 25 year mark (older loans). Oops- didn’t go as planned.

Peachtea

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2020, 06:02:37 PM »
OP your husband’s loans will be forgiven after the 20/25 years of payments regardless of whether your joint income increases. He will never be kicked off IBR, as long as he recertifies each year. If your income increases to where you would not have initially been eligible for IBR, you remain on IBR but make standard payments. Then both the earlier and new standard payments count towards the 20/25 years of payments. IDR forgiveness is les strict than PSLF. Even if you start on a standard plan and then switch to an IDR plan, all the payments count towards the 20/25 years of payments. And missing payments or deferring the loans doesn’t disqualify you from IDR or forgiveness, those months just don’t count (except economic hardship deferments, those actually count towards the 20/25 years). You don’t have take my or any internet stranger’s word for it. Here’s the Dept of Ed saying so: https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/repayment/plans/income-driven/questions (Under header “Repayment Period and Loan Forgiveness;” subheader “What does “after 20 or 25 years of qualifying repayment” mean?”)

Also, don’t blindly refinance the loans and give up the federal benefits, especially when your husband has such a low interest rate. Prime example: for the last six months the interest rate on all federal loans has been 0% and all payments deferred. These non-payment months count towards IDR (and PSLF) forgiveness. And the deferment is extended until end of December. 9-10 months of 0%! Please, please, please tell me you guys haven’t been making SL payments since March.

You need to compare the actual savings of refinance to losing federal benefits. For example, on the gov standard ten year payment plan you guys would pay $591/month or $70,969 over ten years. If your husband refinances to say 3.5%, that’s over 1% percentage lower, but only saves him ~$3,650 over ten years ($365/ year). Is that worth losing the federal benefits and flexibility? Maybe it is to your husband, but he should look at the total amount saved vs just assuming a lower interest rate is going to save a ton of money. Also, note that the advertised low rates usually include an assumption that you will use the .25% autopay discount. The fed has the same discount, so if the 4.625% rate doesn’t already include it, make sure you factor that in when comparing rates.

Now that said, if I were you, I would suggest that your husband switch to the gov 10 year standard plan. It sounds like you guys can afford it and it guarantees the loans will be gone in 10ish years with no fuss. (But don’t make payments now with 0% interest!!! It extends the time until they are gone, but doesn’t cost you anything more. It’s better to put that towards your retirement.) A 10 year payment will save money in the long run, and it is a good balance between wanting them gone sooner but also having a lot of extra money to put into retirement (while also retaining the fed benefits). At your age, you have time on your side, but you’re not that far off from not having time on your side. So it’s important, regardless of FIRE plans, to be investing your retirement plans now. I wouldn’t pay off his loans early due to that. If he was 22, then fine, spend 2 years cranking down on the loans.

If he switches to the gov 10 year plan, his payment should be around $591/month and the overall paid amount (for those ten years) will be around $70,969. If he remains on IBR and his payments stay at $350 and his forgiveness is 18 years away, that’s $75,600 in (18 years of) payments + tax on the ~$29,700 that will be forgiven. If your joint income goes up, then his total payments on IBR will also go up, unless it goes up so much that he ends up on standard repayments (then it will likely be paid down sooner than 18 years decreasing overall amount compared to full IBR). It’s hard to guestimate exactly will happen over 18 years of IBR payments! But I’ll note that an increase in overall payments wouldn’t be because he messed up and had to start over - any loan plan that is longer will end up costing more. I.e. a 30 year mortgage will cost you more than a 15 year mortgage, but folks still find a low interest 30 year mortgage to be beneficial.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Pay off 4.625% Student Loans or Invest
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2020, 08:50:56 AM »
I left grad school in August 2011, with 57K of student loan debt at the age of 32, with an academic job in Florida. Now 9 years later, I still have $24,400 of loans. I do not have any regrets because I got a much higher return in real estate and equities. Our net worth went from zero to 800K in nine years, while averaging 85K/year of income.

About 17K was at 2.4% and 40K was 6.8%, government subsidized loans. I switched out of the 10-year plan ($630/month) and into a 25-year graduated plan ($330/month). With the lower payment, I could now qualify to purchase a 115K house on a 40K salary.

I bought a house for 95K and spent 16K on repairs. Our total mortgage (PITI) was around $650/month for a 3 bed/2 bath house. If we rented a 1-bedroom condo (2012 to 2015), it would cost around $900/month. A two-bedroom was around $1,100/month. These rent to buy ratios are extreme, but this was reality in Florida in 2012.

In 2012, my fiance (now wife) couldn't be on the house loan because she had too much debt. If we continued to rent and I put all of my extra money toward student loans, it would have been a huge mistake. That house that I bought for 95K is now worth 250K and rents for $1850/month. We expect to hit one million in about 2 years. When that happens, I will still probably have around 10K of student loan debt at 2.4%.