Parking lot right of way when backing out?

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

Curious what the 'etiquette' or at least right of way is as it applies to when you are backing out and the person next to you is either unloading or loading kids, etc into the passenger doors or getting in/out of their car. My wife told me that after our son's swimming lessons, she started backing out as the woman next to her was loading her kid in the car next to her. There was probably a good half foot of space clearance with the woman's door opened as my wife started backing out, and the woman immediately got angry and yelled at her "EXCUSE ME!!!" then glared. So my wife stopped and waited for her. Then after the woman finished loading her kids and got in herself, my wife continued backing out... the woman then proceeded to honk several times at her after to "get her point across" lol. My wife just didn't do anything other than look at the woman in utter confusion. I'd understand if the cars were parked very close to one another but in my wife's estimation, it seemed fine to back out - and she was carefully and slowly backing out at that.

If the roles were reversed, my wife wouldn't have cared if the car next to her was backing out. In fact, we've loaded/unloaded our kids multiple times where people do this - some people wait and some people don't. I just never thought much of it until she told me what happened today.

[Cpa Cat]

I think you wait until they're in and the doors are closed.

That goes double when there's kids. Kids are unpredictable and you know the parent is distracted. There have been several times when I've seen a parent trying to load one kid and then another kid starts getting out of the car, or runs around the car.

Sure, maybe I can see that it's safe to back out around them, but the parent can't, because they have to have their attention on the kids, so it's rude to make them worry about what you're doing behind them. A half foot of space isn't a lot of space for a person to feel safe with a vehicle moving right next to them. The driver might feel fine about it, but they're not the vulnerable one. I wouldn't move my vehicle past anyone with only a half foot of space - not a cyclist, not a pedestrian, not someone changing a tire. It's not different in a parking lot.

I will also add, that I find it distracting to try to pay attention to what they are doing, check to see if all their kids are corralled, and know what's happening behind me. Why take the risk? No one is in that much of a hurry.

The only exception is if they make eye contact and stand there with the door half closed, trying to let you go. It then becomes awkward to not back out, though I personally would prefer that they would just finish and get into their car.

[cchrissyy]

no you don't move your car when somebody is standing close. especially if there are kids. just wait.

[erutio]

Sorry buddy, but the other person is right in this situation, though they certainly could have responded more maturely.

By the letter of the law, the person loading into their car has the right of way over the person backing out.  By "the rules of etiquette", if someone is loading kids adjacent to you, you let them finish before starting to back out. 

[jeromedawg]

I think you wait until they're in and the doors are closed.

That goes double when there's kids. Kids are unpredictable and you know the parent is distracted. There have been several times when I've seen a parent trying to load one kid and then another kid starts getting out of the car, or runs around the car.

Sure, maybe I can see that it's safe to back out around them, but the parent can't, because they have to have their attention on the kids, so it's rude to make them worry about what you're doing behind them. A half foot of space isn't a lot of space for a person to feel safe with a vehicle moving right next to them. The driver might feel fine about it, but they're not the vulnerable one. I wouldn't move my vehicle past anyone with only a half foot of space - not a cyclist, not a pedestrian, not someone changing a tire. It's not different in a parking lot.

I will also add, that I find it distracting to try to pay attention to what they are doing, check to see if all their kids are corralled, and know what's happening behind me. Why take the risk? No one is in that much of a hurry.

The only exception is if they make eye contact and stand there with the door half closed, trying to let you go. It then becomes awkward to not back out, though I personally would prefer that they would just finish and get into their car.

I should have been more specific but the half foot of space was *in addition* to the car door being wide opened. The lady had probably a good 3-4' of space behind the door (not only half a foot) with it opened and my wife thinks the kid was already in the seat and the woman was just finishing up before this all happened. But I guess whether it's half a foot or several feet, best just to wait either way. Like I said before, this has happened plenty of times to us and I'm pretty sure she and I have also done this to others without getting such a reaction. Interesting too but this isn't one of those things I thought was such a huge deal until the incident today.

[chemistk]

Just an FYI - some kids can easily escape their carseats even after they've been buckled. If it's one person tending to 2 or more kids, you don't know if there's a sneaky toddler ready to escape the car when the parent is looking away.

As a parent, there is little we can do to get them to reconsider their plan, as toddlers love to push every. single. boundary. Worse, there could be an older kid just out of view that was straggling.

So, you really can't be too certain that someone else is properly loaded into the car until all the doors are shut. A minor inconvenience? Yeah, but it's nice for parents to know that their kid probably isn't going to be run over.

[BlueHouse]

Kids and pets.   Do not move your freaking car when these are anywhere near until you can see an adult is actively restraining them AND looking directly at you AND nodding that you may go.  That's just the way it is.

[doingfine]

100% wait until all people have cleared the areas between cars. 200% if there are kids involved.

[Sibley]

The fact that you're arguing that you SHOULDN'T wait worries me. Let's play this out, worst case scenario:

1. You're trying to pull out. Car next to you is loading kids into the car.
2. Kid breaks free for a minute and runs behind your car
3. You don't see kid/can't stop in time and hit kid.
4. Kid is seriously injured or killed
5. You're arrested.
6. Convicted of manslaughter.
7. The fact that you killed a kid, in a situation where the majority of people would not move the car, results in the harshest sentence.
8. Other people in the jail don't like you because you killed a kid.
9. You get killed in jail because you killed a kid.

It doesn't really matter if you think there's enough space. What matters is that you're in a deadly weapon and you don't take sensible precautions (like not moving) to prevent an issue, especially when kids or animals are around. I don't move the car if there's adults standing there unless they've specifically indicated to me that I can pull out.

Just because it hasn't been a problem in the past doesn't mean it can't be in the future.

[ketchup]

Kids and pets.   Do not move your freaking car when these are anywhere near until you can see an adult is actively restraining them AND looking directly at you AND nodding that you may go.  That's just the way it is.

This is also my rule of thumb.  Car does not move until all nearby kids and pets are secure.

[SwordGuy]

Or you run over the kid's foot and cripple them, resulting in huge medical and psychological trauma bills, all of which you end up on the hook for.  Goodbye FIRE, Hello worker bee life.    And, of course, you don't sleep well at night because you maimed a kid.

[MDM]

I should have been more specific but the half foot of space was *in addition* to the car door being wide opened. The lady had probably a good 3-4' of space behind the door (not only half a foot) with it opened and my wife thinks the kid was already in the seat and the woman was just finishing up before this all happened. But I guess whether it's half a foot or several feet, best just to wait either way. Like I said before, this has happened plenty of times to us and I'm pretty sure she and I have also done this to others without getting such a reaction. Interesting too but this isn't one of those things I thought was such a huge deal until the incident today.

Based on what you describe, your wife was fine and the other person severely over-reacted.  Other posters "but what if...?" perspective is not without merit, but again, based on what you describe....

[KBecks]

Figure that the other mom was stressed from just shopping with toddlers.  Don't over worry about it but know that some people freak out about this.  Good for your wife for backing out slowly and carefully.  Typically I wait for the person to get in their car, it's just a minute or two.

[jeromedawg]

Figure that the other mom was stressed from just shopping with toddlers.  Don't over worry about it but know that some people freak out about this.  Good for your wife for backing out slowly and carefully.  Typically I wait for the person to get in their car, it's just a minute or two.

Thanks. The other mom had her kids with her and they were leaving from swim classes as well. My wife observed them beforehand and commented that they seemed like the troublesome type too - there was a yellow tape caution barrier in the parking lot that the mom ignored and ducked under to cross and her kids followed her example. Then the daughter started hanging off or messing with the caution tape. My wife is very careful when it comes to checking her surroundings and always goes slowly when there are people around - obviously she was *slowly* backing out and stopped after the woman yelled and then waited until the woman got in. If she had continued backing out and ignored the woman, that would have been a different story IMHO.
I guess this (backing out/pulling in while people are loading/unloading) is just one of those things where some people are cognizant of it while there are many others who aren't. Not making excuses that it's OK to do it in the future - I honestly didn't know or really ever thought about it and figured as long as you're slow and proceeding with caution it's fine. But I get the points regarding liability and such. Moving forward, my wife and I will definitely keep all that in mind. As far as the reaction from the woman, maybe she was having a bad day or maybe that's just how she is (the part about her passing under the caution tape doesn't help me in giving her benefit of the doubt though...)

BTW: it was mentioned that this is "letter of the law" - I was trying to look for the rules around it but am having trouble - does anyone have a link?

And a side question to piggy-back on all this: at what point, when backing or pulling out of a space, do you have the right of way when there are cars passing behind/in-front of you? I understand that you should generally wait for cars to pass *before* you start moving. But what if you're in the middle of backing out with your brake lights on/flashing and people continue to whiz by/around you? Or you're like 3/4 of the way out and turning out - are you supposed to continue waiting for people to pass? I guess it's a judgement call/courtesy thing too...

[Samuel]

I'd really rather not have a judge or jury deciding whether my driving was "unreasonable" or a parent was negligent in their supervision of a dead or maimed kid. Just wait.

And to make it even more selfish, imagine the guilt factor... Earlier this year in a neighboring town a woman hit and killed a 3 year old who got away from his parents and darted out from between parked cars in a parking lot. The woman was driving slowly, couldn't even see the kid from her driver's seat, and immediately stopped when she felt her car hit something. She did absolutely nothing wrong, legally or morally, and yet still has to live with the guilt of killing a child for the rest of her life. Now imagine you did something similar because you were 99% sure there weren't kids in a position to slip behind you and you didn't want to wait a few seconds to make sure. The guilt must be infinitely worse. Always wait.

[FIRE@50]

Just wait. Regardless of whether it was your fault or not, seriously injuring another human being would likely stick with you for the rest of your life.

[Schaefer Light]

These types of dilemmas are a big reason why I hate crowded stores.  Parking lots make me nervous.  It doesn't help that so many of them are terribly designed with intersections that contain all sorts of weird angles.  Sometimes they're missing stop signs.  Then you've got some people who will drive across multiple rows of parking spaces and stare at you like you've done something wrong when you're driving within the intended lanes.

[KBecks]

I consider parking lots as no-man's land in terms of road rules. I might be wrong.

Also, grocery delivery or pick up are beautiful things.  Glad no one was hurt.  Getting yelled at by strangers is no big deal in the big picture.

[Villanelle]

Figure that the other mom was stressed from just shopping with toddlers.  Don't over worry about it but know that some people freak out about this.  Good for your wife for backing out slowly and carefully.  Typically I wait for the person to get in their car, it's just a minute or two.

Thanks. The other mom had her kids with her and they were leaving from swim classes as well. My wife observed them beforehand and commented that they seemed like the troublesome type too - there was a yellow tape caution barrier in the parking lot that the mom ignored and ducked under to cross and her kids followed her example. Then the daughter started hanging off or messing with the caution tape. My wife is very careful when it comes to checking her surroundings and always goes slowly when there are people around - obviously she was *slowly* backing out and stopped after the woman yelled and then waited until the woman got in. If she had continued backing out and ignored the woman, that would have been a different story IMHO.
I guess this (backing out/pulling in while people are loading/unloading) is just one of those things where some people are cognizant of it while there are many others who aren't. Not making excuses that it's OK to do it in the future - I honestly didn't know or really ever thought about it and figured as long as you're slow and proceeding with caution it's fine. But I get the points regarding liability and such. Moving forward, my wife and I will definitely keep all that in mind. As far as the reaction from the woman, maybe she was having a bad day or maybe that's just how she is (the part about her passing under the caution tape doesn't help me in giving her benefit of the doubt though...)

BTW: it was mentioned that this is "letter of the law" - I was trying to look for the rules around it but am having trouble - does anyone have a link?

And a side question to piggy-back on all this: at what point, when backing or pulling out of a space, do you have the right of way when there are cars passing behind/in-front of you? I understand that you should generally wait for cars to pass *before* you start moving. But what if you're in the middle of backing out with your brake lights on/flashing and people continue to whiz by/around you? Or you're like 3/4 of the way out and turning out - are you supposed to continue waiting for people to pass? I guess it's a judgement call/courtesy thing too...

It sounds like the other lady over-reacted, but like others, I think your wife was in the wrong.  Arguing the number of feet isn't really the point.  To me, unless it's an entire parking place, I am going to wait.  And even then, I am going to proceed with *extreme* caution.  When kids or pets are present, there is no speed that is too slow.  And I go out of my way to make eye contact with the parent, usually several times during the back out. 

As for the right of way when backing out, the cars driving have it.  Full stop.  (pun intended!).  It's like a car making a right turn into moving traffic.  They always yield to the cars already on the road, already driving.  Sure, it's nice if, in a parking lot, someone stops to let a car back out, but they are under no obligation to do so.  They are already on the "road" and as such, they own the right-of-way.  This isn't a judgement call.  If you back out into another car, you are at fault, just as you'd be if you turned in front of them on a regular street.  How long you've been waiting and how far you've inched forward, don't matter. The onus is on the one entering the road/flow of traffic to yield. 

[GreenToTheCore]

Piling on.   
Why is your <30 second head start more important than someone's safety (child or adult)?

Safety is more important than convenience. Can you even call it convenience when it's a difference of less than 5 minutes? At that point it comes across as selfishness and impatience.
What other way can you justify explain it? I'm truly interested, as someone involved in PSA marketing.

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I don't think it was absolutely wrong but waiting in such a situation is definitely a common courtesy. I was driving up to a friend's house and her dogs were all loose so I stopped driving and told her to herd them all together before I would move my car up the driveway. I already hate myself too much to live with accidentally smashing a yappy-dog, let along a kid.

[Schaefer Light]

I think it depends.  If the mother had the child in her arms then I see no problem with backing out while she was loading the kid into the car.  It would be different if the child had feet on the ground and had the potential to roam.

[TomTX]

I think you wait until they're in and the doors are closed.

That goes double when there's kids. Kids are unpredictable and you know the parent is distracted. There have been several times when I've seen a parent trying to load one kid and then another kid starts getting out of the car, or runs around the car.

Sure, maybe I can see that it's safe to back out around them, but the parent can't, because they have to have their attention on the kids, so it's rude to make them worry about what you're doing behind them. A half foot of space isn't a lot of space for a person to feel safe with a vehicle moving right next to them. The driver might feel fine about it, but they're not the vulnerable one. I wouldn't move my vehicle past anyone with only a half foot of space - not a cyclist, not a pedestrian, not someone changing a tire. It's not different in a parking lot.

I will also add, that I find it distracting to try to pay attention to what they are doing, check to see if all their kids are corralled, and know what's happening behind me. Why take the risk? No one is in that much of a hurry.

The only exception is if they make eye contact and stand there with the door half closed, trying to let you go. It then becomes awkward to not back out, though I personally would prefer that they would just finish and get into their car.

I should have been more specific but the half foot of space was *in addition* to the car door being wide opened. The lady had probably a good 3-4' of space behind the door (not only half a foot) with it opened and my wife thinks the kid was already in the seat and the woman was just finishing up before this all happened. But I guess whether it's half a foot or several feet, best just to wait either way. Like I said before, this has happened plenty of times to us and I'm pretty sure she and I have also done this to others without getting such a reaction. Interesting too but this isn't one of those things I thought was such a huge deal until the incident today.

Just wait til they're in the vehicle and doors are closed.

[Goldy]

This is one reason why I park far away from the door.

[Cpa Cat]

In regards to backing up in a parking lot: It's not a no man's law.

I was once backing up out of a parking spot. A person clearly saw me, whereas my vision was blocked by other cars, and decided to make a break for it and see if he could get past me by accelerating. As a result, I backed into him.

The police declined to issue a ticket to either one of us.

My insurance company, on the other hand, took the position that it's always your fault if you back into someone.

I tried to protest, but had no luck. I argued that the other driver had at least 50/50 responsibility since he had made the risky move. He even admitted in his statement that he "thought he could slip by." The claims agent said that the reason it was my fault was because when you're backing out, you're supposed to be super vigilant about what's behind you and going so slowly that you could stop immediately. He had me there. I was paying as much attention to the cars on either side of me, so my rear did not have my undivided attention.

All the more reason to wait until the person next to you is in their car. You can't pay attention to everything at once. If you're distracted by what's around you, you can't pay attention to what's behind you, and you're at fault if you back into someone.

[PoutineLover]

Clearly the solution is to always back IN so you are never in that position. It's safer, you have much better visibility exiting, and much lower risk of an accident going in or out. Either way, I don't think I'd start moving my car if the doors of the car next to me were still open and loading children. I can wait an extra few seconds/minutes to make sure everyone is safe.

[calimom]

In driving and parking, I've learned that eye contact and hand signals work wonders. Not always possible when other parties are not applying situational awareness, but works when, say you're stopped in a line of traffic and you politely gesture to a driver exiting a parking lot or side street. If someone is loading children, pets or groceries into a car's side door in a parking lot and the car next to them wishes to leave, it's polite for the loading person to nod and wave the exiting parker out. This only works when all parties on on board. Otherwise, wait till it's safe.

[Zamboni]

The other Mom sounds like an asshole. Don't lose too much sleep over this.

Clearly the solution is to always back IN so you are never in that position. It's safer, you have much better visibility exiting, and much lower risk of an accident going in or out. Either way, I don't think I'd start moving my car if the doors of the car next to me were still open and loading children. I can wait an extra few seconds/minutes to make sure everyone is safe.

You are just as likely to encounter this issue with folks getting in/out of cars when backing in as when backing out. Also, pulling forward past someone trying to load /unload their kids is not much better than what was described, so I would also wait like you would. Finally, "backing in" people with big vehicles who have to pull way forward a couple times to get backed in straight are just plain annoying to everyone in their vicinity.

[PoutineLover]

You are just as likely to encounter this issue with folks getting in/out of cars when backing in as when backing out. Also, pulling forward past someone trying to load /unload their kids is not much better than what was described, so I would also wait like you would. Finally, "backing in" people with big vehicles who have to pull way forward a couple times to get backed in straight are just plain annoying to everyone in their vicinity.

Yes, people can be getting in and out of cars whether backing in or out or driving in or out, but the point was that backing in is safer because you don't have the added difficulty of backing into moving traffic while also managing distractions around your car. It's just best practice for parking lots. In general, I agree, don't move your car when people (especially kids) are getting in/out beside you.
But if people don't know how to back in properly, they are probably also a danger to others when backing out, so they should take some driving lessons before getting on the road with a deadly vehicle. If tractor trailer drivers can back into narrow docks with their huge vehicles, anyone can learn to properly park a pickup or SUV.

[TomTX]

Clearly the solution is to always back IN so you are never in that position. It's safer, you have much better visibility exiting, and much lower risk of an accident going in or out. Either way, I don't think I'd start moving my car if the doors of the car next to me were still open and loading children. I can wait an extra few seconds/minutes to make sure everyone is safe.

I primarily try for pull-through parking so that I'm not backing either in or out.  This usually puts me further toward the back of the parking lot and further from the crowd of cars and people. Sometimes I'll even park in an adjacent lot that has pull-through parking.

If none available, back in.

[cloudsail]

I think it's prudent to always take extra precautions around small children, but the mom's reactions are totally unwarranted.

When I'm out with my children, it's my responsibility and my responsibility only to keep them safe. I have no expectations of anyone else to watch out for my children.

If we get to our car in the parking lot and see the car beside us has a driver in it and is about to back out, we all get in the car from the other side, or wait for the car to back out first. If we're already getting in and the other car beside us looks like it's ready to back out, I might close the door first without buckling in my child and buckle the child on the other side, then come back when the car is gone. While many cars do wait for us, I have no expectations of them to do so. I think it's dangerous to start expecting certain behaviors from others just because you have small children, and could very easily lead to them getting hurt because you aren't on your highest alert.

[seattlecyclone]

I'd say the mom was justified to be angry about someone backing out from the space next to where she was actively loading kids into the car. After everyone was in the car, you should be fine to back out, and she shouldn't be honking at you then.

[PoutineLover]

This is especially sad in light of a recent accident in my area. A four month old baby in a tent at a drive in theater was run over by a car backing out to leave. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/infant-dead-boucherville-drive-in-1.5232759

[Sibley]

Clearly the solution is to always back IN so you are never in that position. It's safer, you have much better visibility exiting, and much lower risk of an accident going in or out. Either way, I don't think I'd start moving my car if the doors of the car next to me were still open and loading children. I can wait an extra few seconds/minutes to make sure everyone is safe.

I have multiple dings on my car because idiots backed into me while trying to back into parking spaces. I actually sat in the car one morning at the train station and watched as a guy very carefully backed into the space next to me, except he missed and hit my car. Then he just drove off.

[Zamboni]

^^That is terrible. I can't even read an article like that, but wonder why people feel they would be safe in a tent in the dark in a parking lot environment? A drive-in movie theater is a parking lot environment at night.

^Yes, many people are truly terrible at backing in. Unless you are particularly skilled at it, then I wish you would you just stop trying to do it. I'm with Sibley.

Pulling through is also quite dangerous unless you have good visibility. Or so I have been told. I like to do it, but that preference means I tend to park further out where there are very few other cars.

When my kids were small, I had a very strong preference for parking abutting a sidewalk. That often meant that I was way around the side or even at the back of the business where I was going, far from the entrance, but as long as there is a sidewalk to walk around the building that was fine with me.

[civil4life]

Most parking lots are on private property.  Police are not going to site one side or the other.  It is a civil matter at that point.  However an insurance company will most likely make some sort of determination to determine what side will pay for damages.  In general the person in the aisle has the Right of Way. 

To the OP's original query, I have never heard of a law or etiquette around this activity.  I personally proceed with caution based on the situation.  The way you describe your wife's situation I imagine I would have acted in a similar fashion.

In general, I do not pull into spaces.  Growing up my parents always had conversion vans that hauled us kids around.  My mom always backed into spaces.  She always said that if she could back into a space she knew she could get out.  I follow the same rule even though I drive a prius that will fit anywhere.  Also it helps because the front bumper/under carriage is always an inch lower than the curb and I always manage to up onto it and damage it.

[ReadySetMillionaire]

This thread reminds me of the modern phenomona of people on the other side of the road *not* stopping for emergency vehicles.

Perhaps my memory sucks, but when I was a kid, I strictly remember everyone -- no matter which they were going -- stopping for emergency vehicles (police, firefighters, ambulances, etc.). Now it seems like people driving the opposing direction of the emergency vehicle don't feel the need to stop.  It's bizarre to me that people think getting somewhere 15-30 seconds faster is more important than stopping to make sure the officers/firefighters/whatever can get where they need to go.

***

Not to pile on but I think the same rationale applies here. I don't care if it's kids or not, if someone around me is getting in or out of their car, I wait for them to get in their car or completely leave the area. It's only 15 seconds.