Author Topic: Parents try to force me into bankruptcy + giving up my studies for no reason  (Read 16114 times)

shizzle01

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Hi guys!

Want to share with you my family's financial situation and my question.

Please note: I retrieved and calculated all those numbers myself! My dad adamantely refuses to disclose anything financial! But my mum is extremely chatty and I have access to my dad's income tax statements.

My father is 61 years old (1951) and self-employed business consultant since April 1995. My mother is 59 years old (1953). She was last employed before my birth (1986), i.e. more than 25 years ago and housewife since then. She receives state pension since year 2000. My sister is 24 years old.

Assets:

--> A house (of 4.500 square foot*) value: 1.100.000 USD? – paid off to maybe (hopefully) 50% = 515.000 USD  *according to my mum. Not sure if that number includes our huge (but useless) garden. We live in the countryside in a village with 2.300 inhabitants at a population density of roughly 350 / kmē

--> An apartment which is rented out: ca. 650 square feet. – guessed value: 110.000 USD w/ 40% paid off =
~41.500 USD?

--> A allegedly “non-liquidable” investment-fonds of 45.000 USD. I assumed optimistically that we can still get 10% out (please correct me!), i.e. 4.500 USD.

--> Toyota Corolla E12/E13 (2002–2007), I don't know how many kilometers. Value: 14.000 to 18.000 USD
--> Toyota Camry III / Toyota Scepter / Toyota Vienta (1991–1996) Combi version, circa 350-400.000 km – value: maybe maximum 3.500 USD?
(Please correct me, if my car value guesses are off.)

-->Some old bikes and very old skis – a few 100 bucks

Sum: roughly 690.000 USD

Incomes per year:

•   Income dad (p.a.):
2008:       26.100 USD = 0 USD income tax
2009:       85220 USD = 11.688 USD income tax
2010:       31.150 USD = 0 income tax
2011:       ?? USD = 0 income tax
2012:               12.000 + ? USD (the 12k I know from another bank statement) = ? income tax

o   3-year average rent income (apartment): 8.437 USD / year
o   3-year average disability pension income: 12.171 USD / year

•   Income Mum, p. month: 1030 USD (employment disability pension / invalidity allowance)
•   Income Sister, p. month: 919 USD = 682 USD (Federal Training Assistance loan) + 237 child benefit

Note: My mum is not literally disabled, but she has a chronic skin disorder.
She's doing all the housework and drives her car (even long-distance) just fine.

Expenses:

•   Mortgage + Utility (for 4.5000 sq-f. ?): ???
•   Other monthly bank payments: ??
•   Nursing home (for my 97 old grandma) = 2600 USD/month at least I guess?! (It is roughly 4400 USD – 1800 USD that the insurance covers + then as my dad earns so little he probably has to pay less than 2,6k)
•   Car payments: 0 (both paid off)
•   Cell Phones: My parents USD 45 max. (me currently: 0)
•   Food / living costs: Allegedly my parents together live off of 500 USD / month (but I doubt), my sister and me are on my own = 0 from the family income perspective (I explain further below)
•   Tuition fee (me, Top 3 University!): 3150 USD usually, but 4,573 USD this semester
•   Tuition fee (my sister): 0 (because she’s at a kind of vocational college)
•   My rent currently: 300 USD (+ commute to my university by subway)
•   Allowance (incl. rent) for me: (which I don’t receive right now!) 860 USD
•   Monthly capital cost for me: (which I don’t receive right now!) 257 USD (paid towards my banks)

My sister and me live in different cities, my parents as said in the countryside.

Insurance costs per month:

•   Mum: between USD 190 and 385 (contradictory statements - she doesn't give me details)
•   Dad: No idea
•   Sis: 0 (included with mum/dad)
•   Me: 0 (no insurance, but usually around 15 USD/month)

A breakdown of MY (!) loans and interest

Name – Interest - Negative Balance
•   CreditCard #1 – ?% – 7,973.19 USD (high interest CC, 300 USD over my overdraft limit)
•   Bank account #1 – ?% – 900 USD (260 USD over my overdraft limit)
•   Bank account #2 – 0% – 90 USD
•   Bank account #3 – 0% – 30 USD
•   Student Loan #1 – ca. 5,9% – 43,341 USD
•   Student Loan #2 – ca. 6,5%? – 23,617 USD
•   Student Loan #3 – 0% (gov.) – 3,274.83 USD
•   Friends (total) – 0% - 1,500 USD

TOTAL SUM = 80.726 USD

Please understand that I didn’t look up the interest rates. I know that my bank accounts need to get paid off in the order of CC#1, student government loan (#3), Bank account #1 etc., because that is both how the interest structure is and because the government/bank forces me to. Repayment for student loan #1 starts in 08.2013 and for student loan #2 in 2014 or sooner, if I should not complete my studies.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 07:25:03 AM by shizzle01 »

shizzle01

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Past: 2001 – 2007
I assume that my dad didn’t make more than 30.000 USD / year since 1995, often less. I assume we as a family actually MOSTY lived off of my mum’s disability pension and the little what my dad earned. My mum said our house wasn’t refurbished since 19 years (1993), and that she pays everything for herself since 11 years (2001). Other examples in my memory: I still remember when I was confirmed (protestantism) my parents supposedly didn’t even have the money (or willingness) to buy me even the cheapest suit…luckily I got something... In 2003/2004 we had discussions about to even buy a single pair of medium-priced jeans... I still remember, I spent the semester in which I had some disposable money (in 10.2008) mostly just on shopping ;), because I did have almost no clothes until then. Sounds silly, but the few clothes I bought then, is still all I have now. Usually I could only afford to go shopping once a year for 1-2 pieces. (Yes I have all this debt, but it was mostly for tuition fees, food and transport.)

Present:
According to my mum (and according to one bank statement I saw in May), still in 2012 my dad is “in the red everywhere”. My sister and I had to live off of our reserves and income for most of our lives, because we never got paid any living cost allowance while studying! My sister worked before studying, I assume she has left maybe 1.400 USD. Unfortunately I didn’t work before studying and I failed to complete my degree in four years, but am now in my 10th semester and six years after I started, as I changed my university once and because there were other complications.

Thus it is most extreme for me: After I invested 81.000 USD of my own money (two loans) since 10.2006 and burned through another 15.000 USD in inheritance from my grandma (Yes, my debt and inheritance averages out to (96:6,0833 [the time since I started studying] =) 15.781 USD p.a. (or 12,273.67 EUR or 1023 €/month) spent. Which is mostly due to 1. high tuition fees, 2. me paying all of my living expenses and 3. a few bad habits before 08.2010 .) My parents did only pay my rent (but not utilities), but nothing else. Actually, after substracting my government child benefit (which was withheld from me by my parents until 2011) this means from 2006-2011 my parents only supported me with merely 66 USD per month of their own money, or even 0 or a negative sum, if I consider my mum's government pension!

Yet in 2011, after I came back from my semester abroad (paid for by my me, my grandma’s inheritance and government money) I ran out of bank loan money. Then the problems started!

Since 01.2011, I got a living cost allowance exactly in four out of those 21 months! Just having paid off my credit card, I had to reuse it. Since then I obviously was forced to max out my 7.800 USD limit again to just eat. The last five months were the hardest. Even though I begged many friends and many also gave me money (total 700 USD) in the hopes that I can continue studying, my parents say now more or less: Shut the fuck up, go away and “die in a fire”. (They didn’t say the latter, but I get constant insults, my dad just asserts that I am totally incapable and unsuited for my major and thus should not study.)

As I couldn’t yet pay my tuition fee (4,573 USD), my university already removed me from the system, deactivated my library + student ID card and doesn’t allow me to print out an enrollment slip (thus I also have difficulties applying for scholarships or loans!) and doesn’t give a damn in general. (There is no financial aid office and my inquiry about tuition fee reduction and a written statement is just ignored!)

Additionally, I couldn’t pay my rent since almost 2 weeks now, as I could only earn 380 USD in the last month. I didn’t pay my credit card company or my bank (both overdrawn) since 2 months, nor the government (I (!) have to pay back money to the gov. because my dad (!) earned “too much” in 2009).

So right now the situation is as follows:

•   Because I already have two loans, no banks wants to give me another loan. Of the existing banks, one flat out doesn’t do it. The other one only with the signature (guarantee) of my dad, but he doesn’t sign anything for me! Two other banks rejected my application. (One bank said, maybe [2% approval chance] if I find a friend who has a corporate job & signs for me, but I have no such - willing - friend)

•   My dad also refuses to take out any equity out of the 690.000 USD through a secured loan, even though I already took up as many loans as I could (I think 80.000 USD in loans is way above average even for US-students, but in my home country it is much much more unusual !).

•   Sidenote: I can’t even ask reddit assistance, food pantry or RAOP for help, because I am not in the USA, but over the great pond. I already checked Kickstarter etc. LOL, most don’t do cause fundraising. I ran an indiegogo campaign, to which I got three contributions of my friends, totaling 50 USD, of which I received 16 USD after fees! LOL

Believe me I was also not lazy about scholarships: I wrote together five A4 pages full of a table with research and inquiry results about scholarships and loans. Result: 2 institutions that can maybe provide me with money within ~2 months and another two within 6 months. But the problem is: My university expects me to pay already since the middle of July (!), there is no wiggle room. And of course I have living expenses. After over five years of paying EVERYTHING myself, I cannot do it anymore. I took up my two loans in the hope that my parents would be grateful that I take the burden on me and work their asses off so as to not bring me in any danger…

But now my parents basically both say: “Come back home and give up your studies, we don’t care.” Which means I have to declare personal bankruptcy. Because no bank will wait any longer and I also don’t want to do this anymore. The loans I took out were for completing my studies. What a fail..

But I am a student at the Top 3 university here in this country.

But the worst part is: My parents spend like there is no problem and no tomorrow!! Even though my grandma is in a sure expensive nursing home, my sister barely scrapes by and I am starving (living off of white rice 3x daily since 3 weeks, once again), but my dad just booked a 6-month (12+ days) NLP-seminar !!! My dad is 61 years old! And NLP “is unsupported by current scientific evidence, and uses incorrect and misleading terms and concepts.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming) Such a seminar costs 3.500 USD (I googled) plus 780-1000 USD in lodging and the same for going there by train or car! Which is a total of at least 5.060 USD, which could easily pay my 4.500 USD tuition and a month of food and rent!

This last thing, which my mum told me at the end of last week, let me to finally give up my hope. If my dad rather spends 5.000 USD on an unscientific seminar, while he knows since years and months that I am in trouble without him (as is my sister once federal assistance money dries out) but he still spends it on unscientific nonsense, what else do I have left? I was going hungry on and off the last 9 months. I cannot take it anymore!.. I am almost 26 years old, optimistic, bright and I always tried to take off the burden of my parents. I think I should finish my Bachelor degree! It makes me want to give up my life…
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 07:22:35 AM by shizzle01 »

igthebold

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I don't want to sound harsh, but you're here in the MMM forums, land of personal responsibility and punches in the face. So here goes:

You should totally ignore your parents' financial situation; it is not (or shouldn't be) relevant to your view of the future. You're an adult now, and unless they've committed otherwise, they don't owe you anything. Moreover, if you're interested in financial independence, which is what MMM is about, expecting handouts from others is the wrong way to start your journey.

So your financial situation is something like:
Liabilities: $80K in debt
Revenue: $0
Expenses: college tuition and living expenses, which are non-zero

So, $80K in the hole, and no chance of getting out of it. Sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy to me.

But don't give up! People have gotten out of worse. It takes real changes to your life. You will probably have to put off finishing college, get a job, pay down your debt to a containable level, especially your consumer debt. The math is pretty simple.. you can't pay down debt with $0 of revenue.

Edited to fix spelling
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 06:29:14 PM by igthebold »

arebelspy

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I agree with ig.

Thought your situation is unfortunate, you must deal with what is in front of you.

Your parents seem to be set on not helping any more.  So you must disregard that, and move forward.  That means taking time off from the university to make some money, save up some, pay down some debt, and then perhaps a bit later going back.

You definitely need a job, and bankruptcy may be the best route.  Those credit cards (multiple over their limit) will kill you financially.

Sorry for your troubles.  For what it's worth, I think you can move out of this, it will just take hard work.  Good luck!
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gdborton

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I ig and rebel.  I see a lot of issues with your posts, the number 1 being entitlement.  You are 25, and having been a legal adult for 7 years, not your parents problem.  I think you should count yourself lucky in that most people don't have the luxury of a $800 a month allowance from their parents.

The other huge issue is that you seem to be counting loans as income, and don't seem to grasp the absolutely horrible impact they are going to have on your life.

In six years you blew through $80,000 of loan money, $15,000 of inheritance (another luxury many don't get), your own income (I'm guessing little), plus the "allowance" that your parents gave you.

I can't even fathom being that far in debt and still having nothing to show for it.  I think you should seriously consider bankruptcy, and move to a cheaper local school.

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I thought that you could not discharge private student loans through bankruptcy?

bogart

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You're 25 years old, haven't completed your bachelor's degree (though that's been your goal), and  are puzzling over why your parents don't want to support you?

I agree with others (and I'm usually much more hand-holder than a face-puncher) ... get out on the street, get a job, and stand on your own 2 feet. 

No idea if student loans are dischargeable through bankruptcy where you live or not -- in the US, they are not, but you may be able to start with a clean slate, and bankruptcy may be your best option.  Honestly if you were my kid, I don't think I'd allow you back in my house (as a resident), so IMHO your parents are still being overly generous. 

Dude.

shizzle01

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"gdborton", I never in these last 6 years (except for 4 months) received $800 in allowance! I didn't explain it well: The is just what my dad promised me (even made a signed contract), but never paid me.
It is simply the number we calculated together (in 2011) is needed to cover my expenses, which includes me paying back my "consumer debt" (which wasn't spent on TV's, but on food and rent!).

And just because I am honest about the money I spent, doesn't mean you have to bash me. If you do the math (I paid 4.600 USD / semester for several semesters), you can see that if I substract 15.781 USD - 9.200 USD = 6.581 USD = 548,42 USD / month (or 424 EUR) for living cost, that roughly the recommended monthly needed amount, based on government data!

My studies took so long, because I worked on the side and did a lot of volunteer work (which was a stupid idea), which led me lose too much of my study focus...

Even based on a $800 allowance I would receive less than what my sister gets at the moment in federal financial assistance and child benefit! (Which in turn both are based on my parents income.)
Thus I would receive exactly what the government deems appropriate, but what most students say isn't actually enough. (Or why do you think did and do I work on the side? lol)

My inheritance was only used for the cost of my exchange semester abroad, my laptop + mobile phone and a few other things! As said, everything the last six years was paid by me.

"move to a cheaper local school." - in my country almost all universities cost this much, even vocational colleges (where I was initially) have such a price tag.

Lastly, while you are technically correct that I am not my parents problem, how do you think I feel? I don't feel like I have a family or parents! :(

It all comes down to: Who trusts me to finish my degree? You guys trust me! My friends trust me!
My dad could just sign with any bank and I would pay him back in three months, as soon as I get my scholarship / loan money. But it seems I am highly illusional ...

I forgot to mention: I would have two years / four semesters (including this one now) left.

@slowitdown: I don't know if I can discharge a student loan this way. I don't want to declare bankruptcy, it takes seven years or so in my country.

@bogart: Nice to hear that from you, but could you explain me your hate? Why would you not allow such a kid back home? I am honestly curious! Is academic failure such a horrible, horrible crime?
Because my parents never expected shit from me (rather, before and still now they would force me into the dumbest job possible), do you think that is all by accident?
I am in this hole, because I always tried harder (too hard) than was expected from me!! But now I have to hear such comments from all over the place...
I managed my life on my own since I am 19 at least - basically already since I was 15 - because my parents were never interested in me, thank you.

Otherwise I agree with arebelspy & igthebold, but my question:

I am 26 years old in two months. Yes I made many many mistakes! Who will employ me if I finish my Bachelor (!)  degree with 30 ?!

If I push through now, I could be finish 3-5 months before I turn 28. If I stop now and work, in my opinion I can totally forget it.

And lastly: You may call it entitlement, but my life the last years was not fun !! And frankly, seeing how my parents "handle" me after I tried to take any possible burden off of them, if I am honest, I have no motivation anymore!

Call me a "brat", but there was a). no financial and b). no other reason to refuse me to continue studying.
Yes, I made mistakes, but most of all I get crushed between the indifference of my banks, my parents and my university.
After getting burned in THIS way, do you really think I feel capable of finding a solution? Do you think, I still believe I can start studying again? I don't!

All I see is: It is all about the money. All my peers, who's parents planned ahead or who could take out a loan study in peace, but I don't.

It is nice, "intuitive" advice (I heard it before :P), BUT I know not one person who has saved their way into college, at least not having a debt mountain already.
I mean, even with a market-salary of $50.000, it will take me 4-5 years to pay of my debt!

And all this doesn't consider the added opportunity cost in $$$ that I loose over all this time.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 08:39:25 AM by shizzle01 »

James

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First world problems...


Hope you get it sorted out, either need to buckle down and finish the degree if possible, or step out and find whatever job you can.  Need to stop looking back and start looking forward.


I feel your pain and have sympathy for your unmet expectations, but that sympathy won't get your where you want to be.

shizzle01

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Hey James :)

what exactly do you think is a / my first world problem? ^^ Shoot me a PM if you want.

And what do you mean by "either"? I am willing to "buckle down" in any way possible !! As long as I can finish my degree, I don't mind living off of almost free rice (or the famous "rolled oat meal") and live on a 5mē room until graduation and beyond !! But I simply want to finish my degree (that's my "entitlement attitude") because I think it will not only make me but my parents they money that we could put to good use in our family!...

I just hear horror stories all the time about people without a Bachelor degree (in my country our degree rate is above OECD-average), so I am frankly simply quite afraid.

PS: I am still shocked about bogart. I can only advise / beg you to not get any children!! Or what will you do if your teenager turns out to be gay or wants to be anything but a straight-A student in law, engineering or medicine? Will you also kick him out of the house then?

igthebold

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Not terribly surprised you don't like some of what's been said. While you may disagree about the particulars, don't lose sight of the key ingredient: you are personally responsible for your life. If another factor doesn't work out the way you want, it isn't enough to say, "That ought to be different."

Your parents love you, volunteering is good, etc. But don't forget you're responsible for your own life. The buck stops with you, to use an American expression.

bogart

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@bogart: Nice to hear that from you, but could you explain me your hate? Why would you not allow such a kid back home? I am honestly curious! Is academic failure such a horrible, horrible crime?
Because my parents never expected shit from me (rather, before and still now they would force me into the dumbest job possible), do you think that is all by accident?
I am in this hole, because I always tried harder (too hard) than was expected from me!! But now I have to hear such comments from all over the place...
I managed my life on my own since I am 19 at least - basically already since I was 15 - because my parents were never interested in me, thank you.

@shizzle01 I would guess you and many other members of this forum (myself included) are coming at this from different cultural perspectives, and that that shapes my reaction in ways that you might not expect.  Here in the US, it would not be the least bit uncommon for a kid to leave their parents' home after finishing high school and support themselves from that point forward, period, end of discussion.  That's not to say it's the only model here or the best, but I would say it's not seen as either harsh or unusual.  Thus, to read that, "we never got paid any living cost allowance while studying!" strikes me as roughly equivalent to saying, "every time I jump up in the air, gravity pulls me back down!" or "I find it I don't eat, I get hungry!" -- suggesting that (again, from the US perspective, but also, to be fair, particularly from the Mustachian perspective, which is presumably what you should expect to get in posting here) you are not paying attention to, or haven't learned, simple realities and facts of life.

I don't know you from Adam and really can't say what I would do were I your parent.  I can tell you that of my 2 adult stepkids, their dad and I allowed 1 (and would have allowed the other, but weren't asked) to move home for 1 year after finishing school and live with us (approximately) free of charge (we did not charge for rent or utilities and were fairly generous in allowing shared groceries and such).  As that year drew on (said kid was trying to figure out what to do next, waiting to hear about admission to grad school), we declared that at 12 months, we'd start expecting a (modest) rent payment.  As it turned out, that became a non-issue because the kid (like you, actually an adult, but also our child) went on to graduate school (something we did not pay for -- not the tuition, not living expenses, nothing). 

You're likely in a nation with different pressures and opportunities from the US, and perhaps one with very high youth unemployment, which would clearly limit your options.  I'm quite sure my decisions (were I your parent) would be shaped by myriad factors that are unknown to me (here), but in general, I would expect an able-bodied 25-year old to be earning their own keep, and wouldn't welcome supporting one who wasn't.

Posthumane

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All I see is: It is all about the money. All my peers, who's parents planned ahead or who could take out a loan study in peace, but I don't.
Somehow I don't think it's your parents' fault that it's taking you over 8 years to finish a Bachelor's degree. You did get some money from your family, and you did have the opportunity to take out loans, so you can't really go around trying to point fingers and say that everyone has it better. You have been digging yourself into a hole for a while, and certainly things like a study abroad term didn't help things (I wanted to do a study abroad term when I was in university, but eventually decided not to because I couldn't afford it, both money and time wise).

The reason that this is a "first world problem" is that you could easily bail out and go back to live with your parents (i.e. you have a "safety net"). Sure, it may not be what you *want* to do but your situation is due to your own mistakes that you've made in the past and you have to deal with those consequences. Declaring bankruptcy may suck, but it's not nearly as bad as what people outside of the first world have to deal with when they run out of money.

To echo what other people have said, your financial situation and your parents' are completely separate topics. They may not be be living frugally and may have some extraneous spending, but if you want to encourage them to change that it should be so that *they* could have a better life, not so they could give you more money.

By the way, what country are you in? This information will be helpful if you want people to give you specific advice, as things vary by region (like whether bankruptcy can eliminate private student debt). And what are you studying, just out of curiosity, that will bring you so much more money than a non-degree requiring occupation? In Canada, for example, I know plenty of tradesmen who make more than I do as an engineer.

bogart

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PS: I am still shocked about bogart. I can only advise / beg you to not get any children!! Or what will you do if your teenager turns out to be gay or wants to be anything but a straight-A student in law, engineering or medicine? Will you also kick him out of the house then?

This made me laugh.  Just so you know, I have 3 kids -- 2 stepkids (now adults, from my husband's earlier marriage), and one young child (kindergartener).  My husband and I, together with their mother, paid for both the adult kids to go to college; my husband restricted them to state schools (a tuition cost of about $8K per year per kid), which would not have been my choice, and we paid that (less loans they were eligible for; each graduated with about $12K in student loans that they were responsible for paying for after they graduated).  Neither chose to study abroad, though I encouraged them to and would happily have paid for it.  Both worked during school -- we provided them with a modest cost-of-living allowance, and they earned for extras.  What happened once they graduated is noted in my earlier reply to your expressed concerns; we supported each (in different ways) for a year after college, and then approximately cut them off, though we still help them out in various ways from time to time. 

Neither stepkid went into engineering, law, or medicine.  I love both dearly and am delighted to have them in my life.  One had a solid, if not stellar, academic career path, and the other barely scraped through college.  One works a conventional job and the other is, shall we say, more Mustachian (I suppose we could say a freelancer; works odd jobs, doesn't ask for money, owns a home, pays a mortgage, in short, doing OK.  Not what I'd choose or recommend, but it's not my life!).  And funnily enough given your concerns, one is gay; we were delighted to pay for the marriage celebration of said kid last year and are active in striving to change existing US laws that preclude said marriage from being legally recognized.  As for our littlest one, it's of course too soon to know much. 

jp

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"gdborton", I never in these last 6 years (except for 4 months) received $800 in allowance! I didn't explain it well: The is just what my dad promised me (even made a signed contract), but never paid me.
It is simply the number we calculated together (in 2011) is needed to cover my expenses, which includes me paying back my "consumer debt" (which wasn't spent on TV's, but on food and rent!).

yeah... allowance.


Even based on a $800 allowance I would receive less than what my sister gets at the moment in federal financial assistance and child benefit! (Which in turn both are based on my parents income.)
Thus I would receive exactly what the government deems appropriate, but what most students say isn't actually enough. (Or why do you think did and do I work on the side? lol)

wah, I spent too much on luxury and now they want me to be accountable... wah, someone else is getting something  that I am not, wah.


My inheritance was only used for the cost of my exchange semester abroad, my laptop + mobile phone and a few other things! As said, everything the last six years was paid by me.

yep, and my $100k was ONLY spend on a fancy car, fancy phone, fancy food, and cable tv.

"move to a cheaper local school." - in my country almost all universities cost this much, even vocational colleges (where I was initially) have such a price tag.

The price tag doesn't sound that high to someone with an actual income (which most of have when we are 25). 

Lastly, while you are technically correct that I am not my parents problem, how do you think I feel? I don't feel like I have a family or parents! :(

wah, my parents don't love me because they won't give me their money.  wah, how dare they spend their money on themselves... it is mine by right. 


It all comes down to: Who trusts me to finish my degree? You guys trust me! My friends trust me!
My dad could just sign with any bank and I would pay him back in three months, as soon as I get my scholarship / loan money. But it seems I am highly illusional ...
I forgot to mention: I would have two years / four semesters (including this one now) left.

wah, my dad won't go into debt for me, why doesn't he trust me to finish my 4 year degree?  It has only been 7 years, and I am 50% done... so I only have 7 more years more years to go. 



@bogart: Nice to hear that from you, but could you explain me your hate? Why would you not allow such a kid back home? I am honestly curious! Is academic failure such a horrible, horrible crime?
Because my parents never expected shit from me (rather, before and still now they would force me into the dumbest job possible), do you think that is all by accident?
I am in this hole, because I always tried harder (too hard) than was expected from me!! But now I have to hear such comments from all over the place...

I can't speak for bogart, but I certainly understand where he (or she) is coming from.  You don't seem to appreciate what has already been done for you, nor do you seem to appreciate that your parents are offering to let you come home and live for free.  It is not the academic failure, but your sense of entitlement and complainypantsing that would cause problems. 

I managed my life on my own since I am 19 at least - basically already since I was 15 - because my parents were never interested in me, thank you.

living on your own while someone else foots the bill is not managing your own life.


I am 26 years old in two months. Yes I made many many mistakes! Who will employ me if I finish my Bachelor (!)  degree with 30 ?!

If I push through now, I could be finish 3-5 months before I turn 28. If I stop now and work, in my opinion I can totally forget it.

wah, i need to create a roadblock to make it seem like there is a major problem so I can cop out of responsibility.  Do you think an employer cares whether you finished your bachelor's degree when you are 28 as opposed to 30?  If so, that tells me that you need to experience reality some for a while.

And lastly: You may call it entitlement, but my life the last years was not fun !! And frankly, seeing how my parents "handle" me after I tried to take any possible burden off of them, if I am honest, I have no motivation anymore!

wah, i have no motivation on my own, it is all completely hinged upon how easy my parents are willing to make it for me.

Call me a "brat", but there was a). no financial and b). no other reason to refuse me to continue studying.
Yes, I made mistakes, but most of all I get crushed between the indifference of my banks, my parents and my university.
After getting burned in THIS way, do you really think I feel capable of finding a solution? Do you think, I still believe I can start studying again? I don't!

All I see is: It is all about the money. All my peers, who's parents planned ahead or who could take out a loan study in peace, but I don't.

wah, it is everyone else's fault.  The banks don't love me, my parents don't love me, and the government doesn't love me.  None of them will give me things for free.  Someone else got something, I want something.  wah.

It is nice, "intuitive" advice (I heard it before :P), BUT I know not one person who has saved their way into college, at least not having a debt mountain already.
I mean, even with a market-salary of $50.000, it will take me 4-5 years to pay of my debt!

And all this doesn't consider the added opportunity cost in $$$ that I loose over all this time.

4 whole years!  oh my goodness... how can anyone delay gratification for 4 years?  Impossible.




I know this all seems harsh.  But they tried giving it to you gently...   The real advice (wait, that is why you came here right?) is to suck it up and get a job.  Take a semester off, see how it goes.  Pay it down or off, and try again. 

I know you didn't post all of that just so we could file a joint petition to your mom and dad telling them to give you more money.  You wrote it because you wanted a solution.  The solution is that you can't afford it, you need to pay off some of the mess you created and try again later. 

« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 09:42:18 AM by jp »

totoro

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This must be a cultural difference. I'm in Canada and started working at 12 to pay for clothes and educational opportunities. I had zero financial help from parents for 13 yrs of school. I worked and took some student loans which I paid immediately after graduation. I would never view it as a requirement of a parent to pay, especially if a child stretches out the time at extra financial cost.  You are probably posting in the wrong place. It may come  off as complainy and entitled to most north americans.  Also, in CAnada student loans are not discharged by bankruptcy - oh, and I know folks who benefited greatly from NLP.

kkbmustang

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Shizzle01- 

Grow up.

My parents cut me off the day I graduated from University two months after I had turned 21. May 17, 1994. It's burned into my brain because I WAS ON MY OWN. They didn't pay for graduate school and would not have paid for a fifth year of University let alone a 7th or 8th or whatever year you are in. I felt GRATEFUL that they paid for university. I worked three jobs every summer to save money for books (which I was required to buy), my car insurance and any extra spending money. I also worked two jobs during the school year while a full-time student. My parents gave me $50 a week for food that wasn't provided in the cafeteria. They gave me a check at the beginning of each semester and if I ran out of money, too bad, so sad. Again, I was on my own.

This is my teeny, tiny violin playing for you. Figure it out. You're an adult. Quit whining and complaining about how horrible your life is and do something about it, for God's sake.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 09:52:55 AM by kkbmustang »

cadamsgis

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shizzle01

suck it up

you bought a laptop and a phone, spent a semester abroad... blah blah blah instead of stretching every penny and using the computer lap at the school

i went to school for one year then had no more money - I got a job in a factory making air bag inflators working 56 hours a week will going to college full time. It took me longer then other to get my degree but it was just as good as the people who did it all at once. yeah I was older them most of the others graduating with me- so what

i got no help from anyone else

you are an adult act like one

Midwest

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Why don't you get a job, save up and go back to school after you have some sort of savings? 

The reality of the situation is a)Your parents are refusing to pay any more money b) You can't borrow more.

The obvious solution seems to be to quit school for a bit and earn the money you need.  May not be the perfect solution for you, but it is in fact a solution.

FYI -  When I graduated college at 22, my parents quit helping me.  Many of my friends weren't so fortunate to have their parents support up to that point.  I consider myself lucky that they helped me that much.

$_gone_amok

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Do you have any marketable skills that you could use to find a job while going to school part time? It is very common in the US for some people to work full time and going to school in the evenings or weekends. Unfortunately the cultural difference is vast between your country and North America (where the majority of readers on this forum live), I doubt the advices you receive on this forum will be helpful for you.



KulshanGirl

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My parents paid my tuition and most of my living expenses while I was in college.  I worked part time as well to make up the difference.  And the day I graduated college at 22 I was cut off and on my own.  They have helped me out here and there over the years and I am forever grateful for the help in launching a mostly successful adult me into the world. 

I would never, NEVER be posting their financial info as if it had anything to do with me.  Their money is not my money and they don't owe me one penny of it today or in the future.  It's kind of shocking to see this poster counting his parents info as his "plus" column, and that he'd drill into their biznass in the first place to tally it all up.  Take away all of that and you have a grown ass adult who is deep in a hole of their own making and that's it.

Step one, OP, is to stop being a wuss and decide to be a responsible adult.  I'm sure there are people here who've dug out from deeper than you're in it, with much less of a head start you are taking for granted.

   

Jamesqf

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I am 26 years old in two months. Yes I made many many mistakes! Who will employ me if I finish my Bachelor (!)  degree with 30 ?!

Perhaps attitudes are different in your country (since you don't say, I can't tell), but I didn't even go to college full-time until I was well into my 30s, and have done quite well.  Didn't get any support from parents, either: started out (if you ignore a hitch in the military) doing farm labor, and worked my way up from there.

Only constructive advice I can offer that others haven't is to ditch the white rice.  Brown rice is much better for you.  And be glad you're not dumpster diving to get it.

James

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Hey James :)

what exactly do you think is a / my first world problem? ^^ Shoot me a PM if you want.


You were given tremendous opportunities and wealth and despite all that complain about your life because you wasted it.  You still have opportunities afforded only to a small portion of the world population and yet you continue to complain and suggest they aren't enough.  That is your first world problem.

AJ

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Well, now I'm just super curious what country you are from. There just must be a massive cultural difference at play here.

In the US, it would not be at all unusual for a child to be expected to pay their own way beginning at age 18, with no further expectation of financial support from their parents. There is a gray area between 18 and 22 when some parents assist their children through university, while others don't. But by our mid-twenties (whether one achieves a degree or not) it is generally considered inappropriate to still receive support from one's parents. In the culture of the US, people who still expect or receive money or housing from their parents beyond this age are viewed as immature and, frankly, failures.

But again, our culture is different here than many places. It just makes it more difficult for us to understand your position.

gdborton

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Quote
In the culture of the US, people who still expect or receive money or housing from their parents beyond this age are viewed as immature and, frankly, failures.

I don't want to get off topic, but this isn't 100% true. I'm still pretty fresh out of college, and many of the people I went to college/high school with are living back home/had college paid for/have living expenses covered from their parents.  I would guess that the majority of people my age are getting an excess amount of help from parents, whether they realize it or not.

grantmeaname

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Maybe "failures" there connoted "failures as people" and was meant to mean "unable to launch a career and adult life".

tooqk4u22

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Quote
In the culture of the US, people who still expect or receive money or housing from their parents beyond this age are viewed as immature and, frankly, failures.

I don't want to get off topic, but this isn't 100% true. I'm still pretty fresh out of college, and many of the people I went to college/high school with are living back home/had college paid for/have living expenses covered from their parents.  I would guess that the majority of people my age are getting an excess amount of help from parents, whether they realize it or not.

But that is a luxury and arguably not the norm, even if it is within your circle.  The current economy is driving much of this so should be factored in as well, and I am all for giving a recent grad an opportunity to accumulate some cash/pay down some debt to make it easier to go forward but even then the recent grad should pay some nominal rent, contribute to food, do some chores, etc.   But there are those that have this luxury where the recent grad is out partying/spending/whatever and not looking for or being extremely picky about the job opportunities - this to me is unacceptable and falls into the "immature/failure" category.  Unfortunately, in many instances like these there are parents that are providing this support at the detriment of their own financial future because they have always given little johny and susy whatever they needed or wanted so in their eyes it would be failure to not support them. 

totoro

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Some people in North America get help from their folks for higher education - mine will to an extent - and they will always be welcome to live at home if need be.  That said, I would hate it if my kids felt entitled to this assistance. 

The OP's mother is disabled, his father earns little, and his parents are paying for the care of his grandmother.  He has borrowed $1500 from friends which he has yet to pay back.  He is counting the mortgaged assets of his parents who are near retirement age as assets that should be used to continue to fund his extended school career, despite the fact that he "blew through" $15,000 from his grandmother.  It might be hard for most to emphathize with this scenario,  although I agree that health issues that arise from this need to be addressed asap.

AJ

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Quote
In the culture of the US, people who still expect or receive money or housing from their parents beyond this age are viewed as immature and, frankly, failures.

I don't want to get off topic, but this isn't 100% true. I'm still pretty fresh out of college, and many of the people I went to college/high school with are living back home/had college paid for/have living expenses covered from their parents.  I would guess that the majority of people my age are getting an excess amount of help from parents, whether they realize it or not.

Obviously there are loads of people who are receiving aid from their parents, especially those graduating into a recession. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said it was generally looked down upon, which (for better or worse) is true. When you hear about someone moving back in with their parents in their mid-twenties, people don't typically think "oh, that's totally normal" they think "loser". I'm not saying it is fair, or even accurate, but it is the prevailing social expectation that people of this age should be supporting themselves, and if they're not something is wrong. You are free to argue that the social expectation is unfair (and I may even be inclined to agree), but I don't think you can argue that it doesn't exist.

gdborton

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Quote
Obviously there are loads of people who are receiving aid from their parents, especially those graduating into a recession. I didn't say it doesn't happen, I said it was generally looked down upon, which (for better or worse) is true. When you hear about someone moving back in with their parents in their mid-twenties, people don't typically think "oh, that's totally normal" they think "loser". I'm not saying it is fair, or even accurate, but it is the prevailing social expectation that people of this age should be supporting themselves, and if they're not something is wrong. You are free to argue that the social expectation is unfair (and I may even be inclined to agree), but I don't think you can argue that it doesn't exist.

I think we have a different opinion on what "supporting themselves" means.  I 100% think that people in their mid-20s should be supporting themselves.  I haven't received any support from either parent in a long time, and neither are in a position to help if I needed it (dad in prison, mom living out of a van somewhere).  I'm not saying that society doesn't look down on people that move back home and leech off of their parents after college.

What I am saying is that help from parents is generally accepted by society.  Not all help comes in the form of free rent.  Free family plan'd cell phone, free car that you continue to drive, 0% loan, payed for car insurance, super cheap rent, parents having a connection with the places you interview, deposit on first apartment, etc.  I see all of these things as excess help, and I cringe whenever they go unappreciated.  These are the types of things that I am talking about.

SpendyMcSpend

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You are responsible for yourself now, and your parents assets have nothing to do with helping you.  They probably want to retire too, and are not going to help you anymore. You are 25 years old.  Get a job and pay your own way!

ErinG

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Dear Shizzle, you stated that the past few years have not been fun. That's too bad, you are at a great age for fun! I don't think there is an instant way to solve what you see as the problem....an immediate dose of cash is needed to solve your immediate want for tuition and to bail out your rent and past-due bills.
You're looking at things all wrong! It's good to have long term goals, but getting your degree may end up being a little bit of a longer term goal. I could be wrong, but I think the credits that you have already earned are yours to keep! They should still count when you resume your schooling. Also, the education that you've acquired so far isn't down the drain and neither are the experiences. You've been on a path with the degree as the goal, instead of the journey.
Instead of wasting time outlining the finances for us of your entire family, could you re-do that showing just your own expenses and income? That would be something we could work with.

More importantly, you need to take care of your own emotions. Seeing a counselor may be the most important thing you could do right now. You feel like you are in a crisis, but need help working it out. You don't know what the future holds, perhaps it holds a full time job and part time school. Maybe you'll meet the love of your life at that job and she'll grind away a few years sending you to school, knowing you'll do the same for her (or maybe she gets to go first!)  Use your imagination to think about positive scenarios, because you are wallowing in gloom and acting like a victim right now.

If you've been reading the blog, you should know by now that money isn't everything. I'm sure there are ppl here that have gotten behind or defaulted on payments (like me) who have lived to tell the tale. 

I really think the state of your emotions right now is very bad and your expectations also need a bit of tweaking. I have been to therapy during crisis at work and financial crisis. It was VERY helpful! It is not shameful to get a little therapy and it is not shameful to work for a living at less than your dream job. Dream the dream and get your head straight and then you will see a solution more clearly. Work on your relationship with your parents and find joy in your family and friends. (Personally, I would pay my friends back 1st, good friends are worth their weight in gold).

This shall pass!

c

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It's really easy to look around and see how "easy" others have it and be bitter about your own situation. I'm sure there are more than a few here who can relate to that, I know I can.

You sound overwhelmed, angry and depressed. It's a bad situation to be in. I hope you find someone you can speak to about ways to break out of it.

Best of luck.

ch12

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You are responsible for yourself now, and your parents assets have nothing to do with helping you.  They probably want to retire too, and are not going to help you anymore. You are 25 years old.  Get a job and pay your own way!

+1

I'm 21. My parents are paying for me to go to university. I didn't have any "financial need" whatsoever as assessed by the government. Do you know how much I got from them for me to stay in school for the entirety of the last academic year? <5k. I'm taking eight classes right now when full time is four classes. I work part-time for a software company as a technical writer and I am a writing tutor. I also run a newspaper. I pay for my own groceries and tuition, even though I acknowledge I'm very spoiled because my parents pay for my rent and books. You make me look like an incredible individualist while I'm still dependent on my parents and thus not ultra-Mustachian. I don't have any debt and I definitely would not run up more than 80k in debt. I don't know if you are trolling us because you are the opposite of a Mustachian or you just thought you'd have a good time talking in a frugality forum about how you blew your inheritance (which would have covered me for 75% of my pursuit of four degrees) and still haven't finished your bachelor's degree while incurring more than 80k in debt.

prosaic

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You are 25. You are still 2 years away from completing.

I finished my entire undergraduate degree in four years with a total of $1400 in help from parents. That is not per month. Not per year. Not per semester.

Total.

I worked two, sometimes three, jobs while doing it. Lived in cheap rooms in houses, rode a bike for transportation, worked in a restaurant to get free meals.

You are stuck in a thought loop that makes everyone else responsible for you.

The only way to alleviate your pain is to act. Get a job. Save for tuition. Go back when you can.

And if you cannot stop viewing the world through the lens of victim hood, do not spend more money on tuition.

Spend it on therapy instead.

(Note: this is not a post that is "bashing" you. People who view straight, forthright advice as bashing tend to have a victim hood mentality.)

Jaherman99

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I doubt Shizzle will be posting again.  Universal rejection.

Tradies wife

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Nodding my head through these posts. Anyway, I just thought it was worth a mention that the people on the 'most wealthy lists' here in Australia are typically those that have done it completely on their own. People that have NOT had inheritances or allowances, but those that have been 100% self reliant for a long period of time.

People link Lindsay Fox, who I quite like. Left school at year 10 (around 15 years old) and got working, building his empire. And he is down to earth enough to talk to truckies at the truck stops.

Now, although education is important. It is valid. It does not give you any guarantees for job prospects in a technology savvy world that is moving so very, very fast to change and later things. You are basically just playing the statistics off that graduates get higher paying jobs than non-graduates.

I think you have made the best case that I have ever heard of NOT giving children anything once they are an adult. Having no money, gave me the hunger for education and a better life that pushed me forward. The hunger in my belly, was a constant reminder that I needed that education.

totoro

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While appalled by this post, I can see where it may have arisen in part if s/he is from a culture where it is a given that parents will pay these fees and s/he thinks his or her parents are not living up to their obligations.  I lived in Japan for a number of years and there were more obligations on parents financially for the education of their children.  There were also far higher educational expectations for kids and studying after school at jukku (tutoring schools like Sylvan) were the norm.  In any event, this is definitely not the right forum for this set of facts if you are looking for affirmation.


mustachecat

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I think the OP is from Germany, given his/her way of writing, punctuating large numbers, references to child benefits, and the car models listed.

totoro

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Yes, Germany fits.  After re-reading the post I find myself thinking that this is an issue of mental health and not someone trying to provoke a response or writing out of an entirely different cultural norm.  Hopefully the OP will recognize this and get asssistance if this is indeed correct. 

$_gone_amok

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Yes, Germany fits.  After re-reading the post I find myself thinking that this is an issue of mental health and not someone trying to provoke a response or writing out of an entirely different cultural norm.  Hopefully the OP will recognize this and get asssistance if this is indeed correct.

Just because somebody is from a different country and have different financial and cultural beliefs it doesn't mean he/she has a mental health issue.


arebelspy

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Yes, Germany fits.  After re-reading the post I find myself thinking that this is an issue of mental health and not someone trying to provoke a response or writing out of an entirely different cultural norm.  Hopefully the OP will recognize this and get asssistance if this is indeed correct.

Just because somebody is from a different country and have different financial and cultural beliefs it doesn't mean he/she has a mental health issue.

I don't think totoro was implying this at all.

Rather the opposite in fact.. he reread the post and was thinking the OP's issues weren't related to different financial or cultural beliefs, but might be more psychological in nature.

I don't think any of us can judge this based on a forum post or two, but I do think the OP has some issues to work through, with parents and life in general.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
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[/quote]

I don't think totoro was implying this at all.

Rather the opposite in fact.. he reread the post and was thinking the OP's issues weren't related to different financial or cultural beliefs, but might be more psychological in nature.

I don't think any of us can judge this based on a forum post or two, but I do think the OP has some issues to work through, with parents and life in general.
[/quote]


I agree

totoro

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No, different beliefs/culture definitely do not mean psychological issues.  I knew it was risky to post that.  To be clear, I am strongly against the stigma associated with mental health.  First, it is discriminatory, and second, it keeps folks in denial because mental health, like physical health, can be improved, but unlike physical health, it is more easily pushed aside due to embarassment or lack of acceptance.  People get caught in terrible places sometime.

I just reread the post and it triggered saw some red flags.  I posted with good intentions.

Finally, I am a GIRL.  Funny that everyone assumes I'm a fellow online.  I actually look like one in real life too :)  (a girl that is)

Jamesqf

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Finally, I am a GIRL.  Funny that everyone assumes I'm a fellow online.  I actually look like one in real life too :)  (a girl that is)

I don't think people are assuming that.  It's just that because English lacks neuter pronouns, it's standard usage to use the male ones when the sex of the person is not known.

Done by Forty

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Shizzle, the posters here have more or less put you through the ringer -- hopefully you can see it's coming from a good place.

If I were in your position, I'd come up with a realistic short term plan & a more optimistic long term plan, then try to put them in action soon (that is, within the next two weeks).

Some ideas: in the short term, decide if there is any way to finance this upcoming semester.  If not, then the short term plan might include other worthwhile goals, such as saving up enough funds for 1 - 4 semesters while living at home.

Long term goals obviously include your degree, but could also involve paying off all debt, achieving financial independence, etc.

Good luck.

AdrianM

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Well done everyone,

I doubt we will ever see Shizzle again after he went 12 rounds with the MMM comunity.

totoro

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I don't know.  I have found myself thinking about Shizzle's post over the past couple of day and wishing that there was not so much angst for him or her and wondering whether the comments, although very reasonable and 101 on personal responsibility and financial management, served a good purpose or triggered any change.  The post was just so off-kilter and even to post it without expecting that kind of response is out of touch.  Kind of sad and lonely place to be, even if it is self-made and hard to relate to. 

kisserofsinners

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I don't know.  I have found myself thinking about Shizzle's post over the past couple of day and wishing that there was not so much angst for him or her and wondering whether the comments, although very reasonable and 101 on personal responsibility and financial management, served a good purpose or triggered any change.  The post was just so off-kilter and even to post it without expecting that kind of response is out of touch.  Kind of sad and lonely place to be, even if it is self-made and hard to relate to.

The key there is "self made". They're doing this to themselves. Especially at the beginning everything was very positive. People buffered their face punches and tried to help this person. The person responded by clearly not wanting our answers. It's a bummer, but i believe we've planted a seed that will grow...if even far down the road. No one was cruel...Until the poster started getting butthurt about the answers.

Miaow1

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First of all I am in the U.S. and this might color my response. But here goes.

One I was thirty when I earned my BA. I took me 10 years and three colleges. But I did it. I was dismissed twice from two different colleges for academic failure. No it is not a crime and you can recover from it. At least in the US. Why do you think you'd be unemployable if you got your degree at 30.

Second I left home at 17 and have supported myself every since.

Third I hold an advanced degree from an ivy league school and came out of school with 50,000 in debt. A high price yes. Do I regret it. Not a dime.

Fourth I think what is bothering people on this forum is your sense of entitlement. I certainly did not think that my family owed me a degree or anything else.