Author Topic: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?  (Read 5156 times)

Rusty_me

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Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« on: February 26, 2017, 01:50:08 PM »
I've run the numbers hundreds of times and can say I am FI. I'm completely comfortable being super flexible in life in the sense of part time work or cutting back spending if I miscalculated. I've read about all the situations I worry about (healthcare while RE, RE while single and with no kids). Yet, day after day I begrudgingly wake up at 5:30am and commute to a job that I am completely burned out on.  The only conclusion I can come to is that I have a fear I won't become the person I envision myself becoming once I am given the time that RE provides. So here I am today looking for words of advice, or links to other places that have already answered this concern, or your stories of how your became (or didn't become) the person you thought you would after pulling the RE trigger.

Me I envision...more adventurous (hiking/road trips/exploring life outside my house), more active (swimming/hiking/cycling)
Me I fear I will become...less social more of a homebody, less active (netflix/gaming)

Moustachienne

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 09:43:27 PM »
This is such a core question - who am I without the obligations of wage earning work? - and such a core fear - maybe I need the excuse of work limitations?  There really is only one way to find out...by taking the plunge into a new work free life.

I think the fear will motivate you to figure out the right mix of routine and structure to create a satisfying life.   Might be a bit of trial and error, for sure, but you won't fail.  Not trying would be the failure.

I'm retiring this summer and I've been talking with SO many friends who can't imagine how to answer the question - who am I if I'm not a scientist/lawyer/teacher/machinist/library clerk/admin assistant?  - and seem paralyzed into staying in paid work to avoid answering that question.  Or who haven't considered that paid work isn't what makes them those things.

tl;dr. There's a big world out there; let's not let fear of failure keep us from exploring.

Moustachienne

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 10:22:42 PM »
Awesome post, Moustachienne.

Posting to follow, since this is a great topic.

Consider taking a peek at this post by an MMM forum alum:

https://livingafi.com/2015/03/09/building-a-vision-of-life-without-work/

+++1 to Dr. Doom on this (and much else)!

bacchi

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 10:40:33 PM »
Wait, netflix and gaming are a bad thing during ER? Uh oh.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 11:05:20 PM »
Well Rusty, for one thing, you haven't given us much to go on.  Are you 30 or 50?  Do you live in a rural Podunk town or are you near a big city (preferably with higher education and the arts). 

Anyway, in general terms, being FI means you can screw around at your job a bit.  You don't want to go full-Bueller, but enjoy yourself a little.  The worst they can do is fire you.  But on the way to that, you can probably negotiate a severance package, because employers really don't want to run the risk of firing a valued long term employee that may fight back if they could be construed as having being treated unfairly.

As for just being ER, I don't understand the draw yet either.  Unless you have something you love better than your (job & income + benefits) then ER when you hate your job for taking you away from whatever is important enough that you never look back.

Sounds simple I know, but it's always easier to play it safe.  Just have to evaluate clearly if you are enjoying safety more than freedom, being that FI means your decisions aren't dictated by income.  It's irrational on one hand, but I can understand that it's still nice to practice a challenging profession and also not have to consider mundane things like if healthcare exchanges for retirees are going to change or be disappointed that paychecks don't continue to show up on vacation.

Rusty_me

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 06:53:36 AM »
I think Moustachienne hit on the core of my concern. I have this idea of who I want to be but I also worry that's not who I will become. I tend to be a bit of a dreamer, which isn't always a bad thing but can sometimes lead to inaction in life. The life tree wouldn't be a bad idea even if it is just to put my dreams/goals down on paper and get them out of my head.

@ Bacchi, I don't think that netflix and gaming are bad in ER but doing them full-time instead of living more is a slippery slope for me.

I am 30 and I do live about 20 minutes from a big city (ft. worth, TX). Screwing around on the job is something I am trying to avoid. Its been a great job and I enjoy the people I work with so I am trying not to burn this bridge. I also get paid per job not hourly/salary so then I would just be spending time at work but not getting paid for it. :/

At the end of the day it may be my job that makes me worry about becoming anti-social and lethargic because I constantly feel drained. Weekends I feel lazy because I am exhausted so I lay around and watch tv/game when my mind wants to be adventurous. I guess I fear that this will always be the case even after I decompress from working so much...or maybe this is me using my job as an excuse...the mind is a tricky thing sometimes.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 07:07:04 AM by Rusty_me »

Moustachienne

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 07:35:21 AM »
The need to make a living and the structure of paid work has been a good thing for me, for sure.  I woul never have developed many of my skills and interests if I hadn't been "forced" to and I'm proud of what I've achieved, including reaching FI status.  But now I'm really intrigued to see who I am with only intrinsic motivation and no extrinsic forces.

I've always been a full on or full off person, kind of what you sound like.  I put a lot into work and so I like my weekends really low key.  Luckily, I've had enough long breaks to know that I can develop another kind of rhythm, one that's not so on/off.

If you decide to leave this particular job and give yourself time to develop your new rhythm, it will go well or at least be a great learning experience.  And if you find that you need more structure and obligations to feel in balance, get a new job.  It's about discovering what works for you and adjusting it along the way.  Nothing is forever and there's no one answer.

As well as the Dr. Doom blog and the link in an earlier post, I also found "Retirement: a Full time Job" a really useful blog, especially her early posts.  This one is a look back at some of them - http://retiredsyd.typepad.com/retirement_a_fulltime_job/2015/09/retirement-then-and-now.html

As for the "what if I'm not all that (and a bag of chips) once I can do whatever I want" question, we all have to be OK with that.  The Younger Next Year guy talks about his friends who retired to "finally" be the writer or artist that they always dreamed of being only to discover that...they really weren't that good at it.  But here's the the thing, if you're FI, you don't have to be good.  You just have to like doing whatever for its own sake and your own satisfaction.  Now that is living! 

As you can tell, this whole question really gets me going.  :)

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2017, 07:54:04 AM »
This question sounds to me a little like dieting: we know what is good for us, but sometimes we just want to say 'fuck it' and eat chocolate cake.

This translates into a sort of good vs. bad thinking, which is very black and white, and not really the way the world actually is. It sounds like you're saying that being physically active and living outdoors is "good" behaviour, while sitting around in your underwear playing video games and binge watching shows on netflix is "bad." This is the sort of thing that our minds love to do - set up dualities in the form of extremes. It must be especially hard for someone who's used to being watched in some way, i.e. surrounded by people at work, and you are afraid that without the outer control (which all jobs have, either overtly or subtly) your willpower will go out the window and you'll do whatever you want, regardless of whether or not it's good for you.

I used to be a dieter so I've explored this mindset quite a bit. The thing I found most helpful is to really listen to what I want in the moment - to be mindful of my own motivations and thoughts. Do I really want to eat a giant piece of cheesecake for breakfast, or am I only thinking about it because it's "bad" for me and forbidden? What if it wasn't forbidden, can I just eat it and enjoy it? If it's the former, then I don't eat it. If it's the latter, and I let go of the 'bad' label, then I'll eat it and enjoy it. Either way, it's not about willpower or control. It's learning to ask - What do I really want? vs. What is my ideal that I want to move towards, and what am I afraid of that I want to avoid? The push / pull thinking gets me into trouble as it adds a layer of mental conflict to the situation that should really be quite simple.

Once you understand this dualistic thinking, and really pay attention to the tricks you're playing with yourself, then it dissolves. In your situation, if it means allowing yourself, giving yourself 100% permission and freedom, to play video games whenever you want, then you will be killing off this sort of good-vs-bad thinking. Eventually you'll feel like you actually want to go outside and be more active. Or, you may find that the sloth life is pretty boring. Or maybe it's something you NEED to do to decompress for a while. Just give yourself permission, and do what you want to do, without turning it into a mental conflict. It's the mental conflict that makes you unhappy, not the things that you're choosing to do.

In other words: you will have a choice to fill your day in whatever you way you need or want to at the time. Don't be afraid that you'll make the so-called 'wrong' choice. There is no wrong choice. Just trust yourself to make the choices that are best for you at the time, without inner judgment. You'll be a lot happier, and you'll find that life is not actually going to turn into a downward or upward spiral, as you're currently imagining it. There is a massive grey area in between.

spokey doke

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2017, 08:11:45 AM »
I think your fear (or we might reframe this as being conscientious) is a good indication that you are less likely to become a total slug...its the folks who wouldn't think twice about spending a few weeks on the couch playing games and ordering pizza every day who are most at risk.

One question to consider on this front, is the extent to which work is keeping you on track in terms of your lifestyle and your satisfaction with your life.  It sounds like it is more of an impediment to living the life you aspire to (which is kind of the whole idea being RE).  So maybe your reluctance is also about the numbers...and I still am grappling with FULLY, deep down, believing the incredibly robust results I get from cfiresim telling me I'm set, with a pretty good cushion.

In any case, you are certainly not alone in your reservations about actually stepping through the door and claiming the prize we've all been working for.  I think your view will change after you step through, but you won't be able to tell until you do it.

Felicity

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2017, 09:02:05 AM »
Awesome post, Moustachienne.

Posting to follow, since this is a great topic.

Consider taking a peek at this post by an MMM forum alum:

https://livingafi.com/2015/03/09/building-a-vision-of-life-without-work/

+++1 to Dr. Doom on this (and much else)!

Love that series :D

To the OP - I can fully relate. I have very similar fears that are based on reality. I mean, on a typical weekend, I don't feel like I have the mental energy to do much of anything sometimes. I watch Netflix, play video games, and I even forget to shower on occasion.

For me, I've two lines of thought:

(1) Part of my couch potato weekend nature is due to being mentally tired from a full week of work, and some of that will go away when I pull the plug.

I work, I get some satisfaction from it, but at the end of the day, that's work and energy going towards someone else's goals and hopes and dreams. I am imagining that mental energy will have to be expended somehow in retirement, and I will eventually get tired of Netflix. It might take a month or two, but by then the mental energy will be fighting to come out of me somehow.

(2) Structured Leisure

My grandmother has been retired for years - nearing decades at this point - yet she is the busiest person I know. She is involved in so many charities, she takes photos for the local paper, she gets more exercise than I do - and she gets paid for none of it. She loves her life, loves her community, and it keeps her going. It's not that she randomly wakes up every day and decides to donate her time. She makes it a conscious part of her life. I'm 100% planning on upping volunteer work and signing up for more structured commitments when I'm no longer obligated to work 9-5.


Also in the meantime you might want to look into cognitive behavioral therapy techniques and the like - kind of training your brain to be different.  https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-practice/201212/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-work


Mr. Green

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2017, 11:32:31 AM »
OP, I can relate to your situation. I'm 33 and I've spent my entire career in a field I don't particularly enjoy but I kept at it for the ridiculous salary. I would frequently be mentally exhausted from work and just wanted to spend my weekends recuperating in a low key fashion.

I FIREd last June and claimed my prize. I attempted a thru-hike of the Appalachian Trail, only to find that making that journey without my wife was not something I was willing to do.

I came home and turned my focus to building a house, only to find myself in the hospital with anxiety problems that looked like a heart attack. I ended up going back to my old job out of fear and have since worked out a half-time deal but it's still not work I enjoy. But for now it's some structure that still gives me the freedom to keep transitioning.

My life "after FIRE" has been one failure after another. On one hand, it's been a shock because the last decade of my life has been so absent of failure. Yet another part of me embraces this pain because I want to know who I am without work.

I'm a bit of a dreamer myself and having the time to actually pursue some of my ideas has been great. Just the difference between full-time and half-time is night and day. Weekends are no longer "recovery time" so I'm more proactive in pursuing things that are elective. This shows me I could still have time to pursue my ideas with a low wage "busy" type job if I chose to take one for the simple fact that I liked the work and wanted a little structure in my life.

I would say that my life now is transitioning to FIRE transition. It is more turbulent than ever but I know that I'm figuring out what does and does not work for me. You may find yourself in a similar boat, where trial and error is needed to find what you really want. I've come to accept that this is okay and, like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon, the process will not be without some struggle.

The anxiety problem, which made me think I might legit be dying, really made me appreciate the fact that at the end of the day I'm free. I have the ability to slow down and enjoy the present. Slow isn't really in my vocabulary so this has been an adjustment as well but a necessary one. A health scare will make you realize there is literally nothing more important than that, because if you feel terrible then nothing else matters. Take the time to work things through at whatever pace you feel comfortable. Remind yourself that FI gives you the power to change anything or everything, but I needed to change slowly to help mitigate that fear of the unknown.

While it might sound like the last nine months of my life has been awful, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I've learned more about myself in that time than in the last decade and what I want has become a clearer vision in my mind, despite my troubles.

I hope you're able to take that first step because it's very worth it.

redbird

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2017, 11:34:53 AM »
Wait, netflix and gaming are a bad thing during ER? Uh oh.

I know, that's what I was about to say!

For me, my last year of work... the last 9 months of it especially... were REALLY awful. I had burnt out completely, the work political climate was such that I was constantly stressed and not sleeping well and in a bad place mentally, and so on. One of the things I did to help keep me somewhat sane during that time was put together this large list of things I wanted to do post-early retirement.

Some of the things that were on my post-ER list I still haven't started for various reasons. They are still there gnawing at me, wanting to be done. But I absolutely have made progress on my post-ER list and it feels great!

Post-ER things I have been doing:
- Reading more
- Learning guitar (picked a Bob Dylan song to learn as my first. My fingers hurt and chord switching is hard, but I get better every day!)
- Cooking most of my meals from scratch
- Bird-watching
- Exercising
- My apartment is so clean! I was bad at keeping things clean while I worked.
- Going out to visit museums, parks, and other places I never had time to visit.

I still play video games. I still watch movies and TV shows. But I have 24/7/365. There's SO MANY hours in the day now that I don't have work getting in the way. Yes, you could let games and Netflix take over. And maybe you will at first. But those huge number of hours available in the day will make you get bored and want to work on that list that you made for yourself.

Gin1984

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2017, 11:42:35 AM »
I think Moustachienne hit on the core of my concern. I have this idea of who I want to be but I also worry that's not who I will become. I tend to be a bit of a dreamer, which isn't always a bad thing but can sometimes lead to inaction in life. The life tree wouldn't be a bad idea even if it is just to put my dreams/goals down on paper and get them out of my head.

@ Bacchi, I don't think that netflix and gaming are bad in ER but doing them full-time instead of living more is a slippery slope for me.

I am 30 and I do live about 20 minutes from a big city (ft. worth, TX). Screwing around on the job is something I am trying to avoid. Its been a great job and I enjoy the people I work with so I am trying not to burn this bridge. I also get paid per job not hourly/salary so then I would just be spending time at work but not getting paid for it. :/

At the end of the day it may be my job that makes me worry about becoming anti-social and lethargic because I constantly feel drained. Weekends I feel lazy because I am exhausted so I lay around and watch tv/game when my mind wants to be adventurous. I guess I fear that this will always be the case even after I decompress from working so much...or maybe this is me using my job as an excuse...the mind is a tricky thing sometimes.
If you get paid per job, why not renegotiate your job.  Take a sabbatical or get extra vacation between jobs etc.  The worst thing they can do is say no and then you can say good bye.  They'll probably be willing to negotiate then, lol.

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Rusty_me

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2017, 12:40:51 PM »
I think Moustachienne hit on the core of my concern. I have this idea of who I want to be but I also worry that's not who I will become. I tend to be a bit of a dreamer, which isn't always a bad thing but can sometimes lead to inaction in life. The life tree wouldn't be a bad idea even if it is just to put my dreams/goals down on paper and get them out of my head.

@ Bacchi, I don't think that netflix and gaming are bad in ER but doing them full-time instead of living more is a slippery slope for me.

I am 30 and I do live about 20 minutes from a big city (ft. worth, TX). Screwing around on the job is something I am trying to avoid. Its been a great job and I enjoy the people I work with so I am trying not to burn this bridge. I also get paid per job not hourly/salary so then I would just be spending time at work but not getting paid for it. :/

At the end of the day it may be my job that makes me worry about becoming anti-social and lethargic because I constantly feel drained. Weekends I feel lazy because I am exhausted so I lay around and watch tv/game when my mind wants to be adventurous. I guess I fear that this will always be the case even after I decompress from working so much...or maybe this is me using my job as an excuse...the mind is a tricky thing sometimes.
If you get paid per job, why not renegotiate your job.  Take a sabbatical or get extra vacation between jobs etc.  The worst thing they can do is say no and then you can say good bye.  They'll probably be willing to negotiate then, lol.

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Well I am an auto technician. I have 10-15 jobs a day normally even though I still work a standard 7:30-5:00 Mon-Fri. I've casually brought up working less hours to managers but their response was along the lines of "That's not how we do things."  As some have said perhaps taking a step down to find a part-time job might help ease the transition but it won't be doing what I am doing now.

Also just want to say thank you to all the people that have offered their story or advise so far. Every day I feel I am inching closer and closer to calling it quits and every time I read an inspirational post I feel that much more comfortable with it. :)

Rusty_me

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 05:11:15 PM »
Just wanted to say thanks again to all the people on this thread and forum. I've probably read this thread a dozen times to really try to figure things out. I officially put in my notice today, but haven't quite pinned down my exit date.  The future holds so many unknowns that this is definitely a scary decision but also exciting and actually happening!

Retire-Canada

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2017, 05:41:19 PM »
I've run the numbers hundreds of times and can say I am FI. I'm completely comfortable being super flexible in life in the sense of part time work or cutting back spending if I miscalculated. I've read about all the situations I worry about (healthcare while RE, RE while single and with no kids). Yet, day after day I begrudgingly wake up at 5:30am and commute to a job that I am completely burned out on.  The only conclusion I can come to is that I have a fear I won't become the person I envision myself becoming once I am given the time that RE provides. So here I am today looking for words of advice, or links to other places that have already answered this concern, or your stories of how your became (or didn't become) the person you thought you would after pulling the RE trigger.

Me I envision...more adventurous (hiking/road trips/exploring life outside my house), more active (swimming/hiking/cycling)
Me I fear I will become...less social more of a homebody, less active (netflix/gaming)

You don't need to have everything figured out about retirement before you retire. It's a process that will take years to unwind the programming and in most cases damage you've done to yourself working for decades. The only way to see what's on the other side of the prison door is to walk out of the cell into the sunshine. Don't give yourself a huge agenda. Just see what happens. Worst case you can always find some other work to do if you don't like retirement, but unless you give it a shot you'll never know what it could be for you.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overcoming the mental barrier from FI to RE?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2017, 08:54:13 PM »
You become the person you want to be by starting on a path that will get you there and then staying on that path.

Why can't you start now?