Author Topic: other options for short term saving vs online savings?  (Read 7324 times)

rawhitelock

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other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« on: February 11, 2013, 01:32:35 PM »
I have $10k in an ally savings account earning .9% interest and I'm currently able to save an additional thousand per month. I plan on accessing at least a portion of the funds within 5 years for a rainy day or hopefully a down payment on a home. My question is am I doing the right thing by stashing the money in the ally account? If not, is there a better way to have the money work for me while I save while allowing it to be accessed by me on an as-needed basis?

Sincere thanks to everyone who responds. I need the help of those who know more than me!

-R.A.

MrSaturday

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 11:12:06 AM »
You should at least consider series I savings bonds.  They're inaccessible for a year, but if you buy in a little at a time you can keep most of your cash available while still taking advantage of better rates.

icefr

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 12:17:31 PM »
They also have a 3-month interest penalty if you withdraw before the first 5 years are up.

chucklesmcgee

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 05:11:26 PM »
I have $10k in an ally savings account earning .9% interest and I'm currently able to save an additional thousand per month. I plan on accessing at least a portion of the funds within 5 years for a rainy day or hopefully a down payment on a home. My question is am I doing the right thing by stashing the money in the ally account? If not, is there a better way to have the money work for me while I save while allowing it to be accessed by me on an as-needed basis?

Sincere thanks to everyone who responds. I need the help of those who know more than me!

-R.A.

There's really no point in parking your money in a savings account. Interest is eating away at that money. At a modest 3% inflation rate, your money will be worth around $1000 less than it is now in 5 years. Personally I'd park it in a total stock market index fund if you're able to tolerate having only half of it available if the market meltdowns when you need it. Odds are it'll return around 7% or so, well above inflation.

AtlantaBob

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 08:18:56 PM »
Chuckles has some good points on inflation, but, given that it sounds like you're just starting out, and plan on using some of the funds for a house in a few years, I might be a little more conservative. Let me stress, inflation is bad, and given our current monetary policy, it's almost inevitable. But, in the end, we'll just be able to offer you a couple of suggestions; ultimately you'll need to choose what will help you achieve your financial goals and (perhaps more importantly), sleep well at night.

Since it sounds like this is going to be a combination emergency fund/house downpayment fund, I'd suggest splitting the funds between your Ally Savings account and a short-term bond fund, such as VFSTX. If you wanted to be slightly more aggressive, you could also fold in a stock component (my suggestion would be Vanguard's Dividend Growth Fund (VDIGX), but I could see an argument for a larger index as well). I'd recommend allocating $10,000-$15,000 in the Ally savings account, and putting the remainder in VFSTX/VDIGX (I'd go as aggressive as splitting the remainder 50/50 between those two).

Here's what I'm thinking when I make those recommendations:

Why keep some money in cash?

In a word, comfort. For me, it's nice to know that I could deal with a $10,000 medical treatment that isn't covered by insurance, or could loose my job on the same day that the stock market tanks, and not be concerned with how I'm going to pay the rent and eat for the next several months. Yes, there is a cost to keep money in cash (inflation). That being said, having some cash on hand may also prevent you from making stupid financial decisions -- either out of nervousness, or out of necessity.

You may not have been investing during the crash of 2008, but people did some crazy things then because they were either a.) too nervous, or b.) had to sell assets at a substantial discount due to liquidity issues. Having some cash on hand -- knowing that you'll be ok for a few months regardless of how bad the world gets -- can calm you in a crisis, and can help you avoid making rash investment decisions. Having cash on hand can also help you avoid the liquidity trap (e.g., having to sell a $10,000 asset for $5,000, just because you need the $5,000 now). This is what Chuckles was talking about when he said "if you're able to tolerate having only half of it available if the market meltdowns when you need it." The problem with this is that market meltdowns and the need to access cash often coincide (e.g., you need cash because you lost your job and you can't find a new one; but the reason you can't find a new job is that the economy is in a recession, and the stock market is also down.)

Living below your means helps cushion you immensely, but having some cash is a great safety net. I would probably keep this limited to $10,000 to $15,000 kept in the Ally savings account. (I'm not aware of another no-fee FDIC-insured account that offers a better rate and allows you ready access to cash, but if you can find one with a better rate, I'd certainly consider it.)

If stocks or other assets get incredibly cheap, you might be tempted to tap into this account to purchase assets. However, by doing so, you will probably lose some level of comfort, and you may expose yourself to the liquidity trap (e.g., you spend all of your cash to make a huge downpayment on the house, but the furnace breaks and the roof starts leaking three months after closing -- you'll probably need to go into debt, or sell other assets to meet those unexpected bills). I know MMM uses a HELOC to address this issue, but to me that's an advanced step that I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending to someone just buying a place.

Also, no less of an investor than Warren Buffet is willing to pay a substantial price in terms of lost earnings/inflation to keep money "in cash": "At Berkshire the need for ample liquidity occupies center stage and will never be slighted, however inadequate rates may be.
Accommodating this need, we primarily hold U.S. Treasury bills, the only investment that can be counted on for liquidity under the most chaotic of economic conditions. Our working level for liquidity is $20 billion; $10 billion is our absolute minimum" (from his 2011 letter).

Why bonds?

Increased earnings power with stability. Without going into a 20-page dissertation on bonds, their payouts (for a number of reasons) tend to be more stable than the earnings you'd see in a stock index fund (which might average 7% over the last 100 years, but will bounce around much more in the short term time horizon that you're looking at). If you want to be confident that you'll have more money than you started with at the end of three years (and more money than you'd get in the Ally savings account), a short-term bond fund offers that.

Thankfully, bonds (typically) offer payouts that are set beforehand, so their value doesn't decline very much in a down economy. Your primary risk in bonds are that the bondholder defaults (a.k.a., doesn't pay you the money that they promised), and, more importantly, interest rate risk (which is linked to our boogeymonster, inflation). In most respectable bond funds (such as VFSTX), the managers of the fund effectively eliminate the default risk. However, all bond funds are subject to interest rate risk.

What's interest rate risk? (the 30,000-foot view)

Low interest rates (like we currently have) eventually encourage people to borrow money. In our current structure, when people borrow money, we're effectively creating it out of thin air. That means that the entire purchasing capacity of the nation is spread out around more dollars, and each dollar is worth slightly less. To rein in inflation (run-away inflation is really bad--see Germany following WW II, or Zimbabwe), the Federal Reserve increases the interest rate. Unfortunately, this lowers the value of bonds (due to a concept called the time value of money). The bonds that are most impacted are those with the longest length (measured by a concept called "duration"). The upshot of all of this is that a.) we expect the Federal Reserve will have to raise the interest rate in the next few years; b.) you don't want to be an investor in long-term bonds when that happens; c.) short-term bonds (such as VFSTX) should not be impacted as much. (See https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insights/saving-investing/bond-fund-basics-duration for some more details).

Why choose Vanguard Dividend Growth Fund (VDIGX) over a total stock market index or S&P 500 index?

A dividend-focused fund is a good way to add some equities into the mix (with the goal of getting a higher rate of return than VFSTX, while still maintaining a steady account value). Dividend paying stocks tend to be more stable, mature companies, and there is enormous pressure on companies to maintain their dividend year-over-year. Thanks to the time value of money, these consistent dividends tend to result in stable share prices -- even though these companies are returning dividends to you each quarter.

To see the value of this stability, it may be useful to look at a chart of a fund like Vanguard Dividend Growth Fund (VDIGX) and compare it to the S&P 500, or the Russell 2000 indexes -- just make sure that you include the year 2008 when you draw the chart. You'll see that although all of the these funds/indexes are up over that time period, the VDIGX fund has lower-highs, and higher-lows (that is, it's more stable) than the larger market indexes. And, for most people, that stability is what they want in a rainy day fund, or a fund that they'll be tapping in the next 5 years for a house downpayment.

Again, just to stress -- this is just a different risk/reward profile than what Chuckles put forth -- neither one is right or wrong -- it's mostly about what will make you comfortable. Apologies on some very short explanations on the bond and dividend funds -- I just realized that if I really were to explain everything involved, I'd end up writing a very long ebook, and you'd probably have purchased the house already. Finally, note that all of the above is just written with the short term emergency fund/house fund in mind -- I'd suggest a different course if you were talking about investing in a 401(k) or other retirement account!


rawhitelock

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 07:46:29 AM »
Thanks to everyone who responded. I'm just now getting to sift through the answers you've all given me.

You're exactly right I am just starting out! I Will look into the info you gave me. I definitely want something that will earn more than .9% but isn't too risky since I will for sure be needing the funds within 5 yrs. Another reason I need the low volatility is that I'm in construction (electrician)  and I could face unplanned time off between jobs, etc.

I really want to buy a home with a 20% down payment, my mortgage with be less than half of my rent right now if I was able to do that. I have a 10 month old daughter and I just want to give her some stability in her life. I want to grow my damn money mustache!

teacherman

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 01:44:59 PM »
@rawhitelock -- Thanks for asking this question! I am dealing with the same thing right now! I currently have about $11,000 saved for a down payment and hoping to have 20% within the next 3-4 years. I currently have $4000 of it in a USAA Mutual Fund that I bought not really knowing what I was doing. I have $5000 in VASIX currently and I have $2000 in an Ally savings account. I am thinking I should sell my USAA mutual fund and put that into the Vanguard account. Would that be a good idea?

Related question: I am understanding that you can withdraw your contributions from an IRA to pay a downpayment... Is that correct?

Thanks!

AtlantaBob

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 05:52:10 PM »
@rawhitelock -- Thanks for asking this question! I am dealing with the same thing right now! I currently have about $11,000 saved for a down payment and hoping to have 20% within the next 3-4 years. I currently have $4000 of it in a USAA Mutual Fund that I bought not really knowing what I was doing. I have $5000 in VASIX currently and I have $2000 in an Ally savings account. I am thinking I should sell my USAA mutual fund and put that into the Vanguard account. Would that be a good idea?

Related question: I am understanding that you can withdraw your contributions from an IRA to pay a downpayment... Is that correct?

Thanks!

Teacherman -

My two cents is that you might want a little bit larger emergency fund on hand (in checking/savings, CDs, or a money market) in case something happens. My minimum for cash would probably be $5,000 in your situation (although that might change based on whether or not you have kids, another income, or a particularly stable/unstable job). In any event, I would not include the emergency fund as part of the downpayment (depressing as that sounds).

What USAA mutual fund do you currently own?

I wasn't familiar with VASIX, but here's the description from Yahoo Finance: "The fund invests in other Vanguard mutual funds according to a fixed formula that over time should reflect an allocation of approximately 80% of the fund's assets to Vanguard Total Bond Market II Index Fund, 14% to Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund and 6% to Vanguard Total International Stock Index Fund."

To my mind, this is the type of fund that is appealing to a retired person who wants stable income, but it carries some risks for a younger investor (mostly because of the "duration" issue that I referred to in my earlier post). I might consider reducing some of this interest-rate risk by investing in VFSTX (the short-term Vanguard bond fund), or, potentially, VDIGX. Both would provide similar stability and returns, but would probably reduce your risk of loss when interest rates eventually go up.

Finally, here's some information on using an IRA for a home downpayment (http://www.bankrate.com/finance/retirement/using-ira-down-payment-tax-free.aspx) Note that you can only pull out $10,000. With interest rates as low as they are (for the foreseeable future), if I could I'd probably just finance more on the mortgage and leave the money in the IRA.

chucklesmcgee

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 08:45:43 PM »
For me, it's nice to know that I could deal with a $10,000 medical treatment that isn't covered by insurance, or could loose my job on the same day that the stock market tanks, and not be concerned with how I'm going to pay the rent and eat for the next several months.

When I get medical treatment, I get a bill in the mail ~30 days afterwards, which usually asks to be paid in 15 days. I can put that on my credit card, meaning I have 75+ days of interest free borrowing and more than enough time to sell whatever stocks I have.

If the stock market collapses one day after buying your stocks, by the most its ever dropped in a single day, 23%, and you lose your job and you sell your stocks...well, you'll still have $7000+. Even if we're talking about some godawful timing, say you bought an index fund when the Dow hit 14,000 and sold it shortly after Obama took office when it was down at 7,000...you'd still have $5000. You'd be just fine eating and paying rent for the next several months even in the historically worst conditions. And that's the very worst conditions. Chances are you'd be coming out well ahead. It does come down to personal risk preferences here, but examining the money you lose by not investing it is going to be a bigger threat long-term to your stash.


AtlantaBob

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 07:30:00 PM »

When I get medical treatment, I get a bill in the mail ~30 days afterwards, which usually asks to be paid in 15 days. I can put that on my credit card, meaning I have 75+ days of interest free borrowing and more than enough time to sell whatever stocks I have....


Again, I can't stress strongly enough that Chuckles and I are probably at different ends of a spectrum, and what's important is that you're comfortable with your own plan.

For me, it's nice to know that I can survive without depending on fluctuations of the market; but, as Chuckles said, in most cases, you can put the balance on a credit card and extend the float for a month or so. My personal opinion is that some of the folks on this board are a little too aggressive with their 'stache, and, that you should always plan for the worse (for instance, if the market did go down 23% in one day, you'd need to have an annual return of 30% to get to even). Again, my _personal_ opinion is that the potential fluctuation of $10,000 shouldn't be a substantial part of your net worth, and that the cash should serve as a buffer for your longer-term wealth. That being said, I'm sure there are a lot of folks on the forum who would disagree with me--perhaps including MMM himself.

Even so, it's a LOT easier to take that kind of hit to your savings when you have a lot in the bank, rather than (relatively) little (<$20,000). So, I tend to offer a little more conservative guidance to folks who are just starting out. Again, all of this advice DEPENDS on your risk profile and what helps you sleep well at night; there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches.

savingtofreedom

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 10:26:47 PM »
Quote

Even so, it's a LOT easier to take that kind of hit to your savings when you have a lot in the bank, rather than (relatively) little (<$20,000). So, I tend to offer a little more conservative guidance to folks who are just starting out. Again, all of this advice DEPENDS on your risk profile and what helps you sleep well at night; there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches.

AtlantaBob this is helpful advice. We are sitting on too much cash but I it makes me very nervous to invest our money.  The guidance above may help motivate me to get moving on this.


Tyler

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 12:45:19 AM »
Full disclosure -- I'm definitely on the conservative side of the aisle.

If you plan to access your money within 5 years, I personally wouldn't invest it in stocks (at least not in a large percentage).  Yes that has great returns over long periods, but there's no telling if the stock market will play nice with your timeframe.  You may lose small amounts of money to inflation over the short term, but that beats losing 40% of your money to stock plunges like in 2008 if you know you'll need the cash.

I-bonds is a good suggestion.  I'd also consider 5-year treasury bonds (or perhaps a bond ladder between 1-5 years).  Look at ETFs like SHY or mutual funds like FSBIX.  They're safe and dependable (even moreso than money market accounts at the bank).  If you prefer to stick with the bank, at least make sure they're FDIC insured.

Once you have enough savings that you're willing to invest long-term (that you don't plan to access for many years) feel free to up your risk.  But building a dependable foundation for the near-term is a good first step.


AtlantaBob

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Re: other options for short term saving vs online savings?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 07:52:32 PM »
Tyler -- good point. I didn't think about I-Bonds, but they're definitely something to consider, especially if you're being conservative (in my mind, they'd take the place of the savings account -- even though they might take a few more days to liquidate).

I was thinking about this on my drive to work this morning (I know--blasphemy!). In a way, building up an emergency cushion--until you have substancial assets--is like digging out of debt. In the short term, you have to put money towards savings that aren't returning much--if anything, after inflation. Once you've reached that level, though, you should be able to start investing seriously, and hoping for better returns. If you skip the emergency fund--and it's tempting to do--it's possible that you'll have to raid your investment account and negate gains/exacerbate losses just to pay an unexpected debt.

In any event, people who have savings (let's say $100,000 or more at a minimum) can take more risk than folks who only have $10,000 in the bank. Until you get there, I would suggest that focus more on increasing your income than focusing on uber-clever investment strategies --  that being said, there are probably a lot of folks on this forum who would disagree with me!

Again - you've got to interpret this for your own situation, and it may not be right for you. But my advice would be to keep some cash ($10-15k readily accessible, especially given your volatile career). Hope this helps, and good luck.