Author Topic: Organic food... Worth the price?  (Read 29072 times)

firelight

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Organic food... Worth the price?
« on: June 02, 2015, 12:32:44 PM »
We recently started looking into buying only organic foods (earlier, we used to buy some of the dirty dozen organic and the rest as non organic). Even the cheapest source of food (farmers market) seems to balloon our food budget. Our most convenient (whole foods or trader Joe's) tripled our food budget. We eat at home 95% of the time and eat a variety of food. My husband thinks the organic expense is worth the benefits but I'm shocked by the cost difference. Is organic really worth the cost difference? What are your tips for saving money when you buy organic produce?

We live in an apartment and recently had a baby, so gardening and raising animals is out of question.

GuitarStv

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2015, 12:39:09 PM »
No.

Well, at least not in Canada.  My dad's a farmer, and he produces organic soy beans.  The testing to ensure that something is certified organic is done by a for profit company that the farmer who wants the certification pays.  There's no real reason for a certifier to crack down on a farmer (would piss off their employer).  The whole thing works on the honor system.

I can guarantee you that much of the stuff labelled 'organic' is identical to the regular produce sold.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 12:48:55 PM »
No. Absolutely not.

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 12:58:14 PM »
Not really.

Also trying to frame your buying patterns off of a cutsy internet list is a little silly. Here is some information on the dirty dozen - http://vitals.lifehacker.com/why-you-shouldnt-buy-organic-based-on-the-dirty-dozen-1689190822

tlars699

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 12:58:33 PM »
Veggies- Nah.
Fruits- depends on the item. Organic pears were on sale to match prices with non organic, and they were much riper and juicier than a different variety.(includes tomatoes; in apts they have those upside down pot thingies for fresh toms, or you can just put dirt in a rubbermaid bin, and make it a giant pot to grow your own, but organic from the vine= yummy!)
Breadly goods-better by far if you make them yourself, not worth $$ for "organic" flours.
Meats- Chicken thus far has proven much more tasty when purchased FREE RANGE ORGANIC (not "NATURAL"- still advertise that they feed the birds corn and soybeans; big clue for not as tasty) Also, Free range implies less antibiotics. Yay!
I haven't experimented much with pork or beef (free range/grass fed) yet, but these taste better from smaller butcheries ($$$), as they only use 1-5 beasts in the grinder rather than 20-100.

humbleMouse

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 12:58:37 PM »
Try going to farmers markets, much cheaper prices there. 

SilveradoBojangles

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 01:16:59 PM »
I buy organic when I can, but conventional for things that are far more expensive. We get a CSA ($20 a week), so the bulk of the veggies we eat each week are locally produced and pesticide free. While I would like to limit my exposure to pesticides, my motivation for buying organic is for environmental rather than health reasons, because I am worried about declines in bee populations and water pollution due to pesticide run-off and the health of the workers who apply pesticides, especially when the veggies come from other countries with less health and safety regulations. So I do what I can when it won't break then bank.

Gen Y Finance Journey

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 01:22:01 PM »
I've found that my local farmers market is usually cheaper than the non-organic produce at the grocery store. But if that's not the case for you, I'd just identify the specific fruits and veggies where you can taste the difference and only buy those organic. For instance, I find organic carrots to be infinitely superior to non-organic grocery store carrots, but I can't taste any difference in organic vs non-organic potatoes.

backyardfeast

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2015, 01:23:38 PM »
I think this is an important question that can require some research and also some reflecting on your personal values, as well as your immediate priorities.  There aren't easy answers, and the more you learn, the less clear some aspects will be. :)

Some benefits of organic produce/foods:

* non-GMO
* less environmental pollution and damage (though this can still be considerable, depending on the product)
* possibly less pesticide exposure depending on the individual food

These may or may not be priorities for you and your family.  Notice that nutritional value is not on my list here.  There are a lot of things that go into the nutritional value of a food.  In my mind, freshness is the most important, followed by the soil health that the produce was grown in.  Organic can have (but doesn't necessarily) better soil health, and may or may not be fresher.  I don't buy the bell peppers that get shipped here from Israel in December, for instance, but I will happily buy the non-organic hothouse ones that are grown around here from March to October.

Personally, I would stick with seasonal eating first (for freshness), and then try to find sources of food in your area from farmers who are using organic or better (grass-fed, free-range meats for instance) methods, but who aren't certified organic.  These types of sources tend to get you out of the industrial food industry quickly, and get you the most bang for your buck.  Buy in bulk when you can; look for buying co-ops in your area.  Watch grocery store prices and buy organic when it makes sense: when veggies and fruits are in season, there's often not too much of a price difference between organic and non.

Then let yourself off the hook.  There is no perfect in this area; all of us are making the best decisions we can, and our economics and local resources are a part of those decisions.  In my experience, getting too fixated on food rules is crazy-making.

frugaliknowit

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 01:24:39 PM »
My take is there is probably some benefit to it.  But, before one takes the plunge, do my checklist:

1.  Am I a healthy weight?
2.  Do I NOT smoke?
3.  Do I get at least 7 hours of sleep?
4.  Is my cholesterol ok?
5.  Is my blood pressure ok?
6.  Do I do appropriate cancer screenings?
7.  Do I get regular exercise?
8.  Do I NOT drink excessively?
9.  Is my stress level under control?

If no, fix above, and don't waste your money on organic until you do.  If yes to all of the above and you would like to try to take your health to a higher level (questionably), then:

Would organic fit into my budget?  If yes, go for it!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 01:29:35 PM by frugaliknowit »

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 01:25:30 PM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

GuitarStv

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 01:40:39 PM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

It's a benefit if you don't understand science.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 01:46:34 PM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

Spending more money to ensure food is produced less efficiently is good way to pretend you care about the environment while ensuring invisible poor people suffer.

Bob W

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 01:49:17 PM »
Yes!  Hell yes!   

It is most definitely worth it.   Problem is that I can't wrap my head around it on a cost basis,  so I just don't do it.

Grass fed organic meat definitely beats the heck out of Confined Animal Feeding Operation industrial meat.

In your non organic meat you will find antibiotics,  weird drugs,  all sorts of "cides",  artificial hormones and the fat profile doesn't even resemble real food. 

Wish I weren't such a short sighted cheap ass!

backyardfeast

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 01:58:03 PM »
Quote
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

Geez, folks.  It's a benefit if you care about GMOs.  Not everyone does.  Not trying to make a political statement; it's just a reason why some people choose organic.  Note that my list of benefits is *intended* to be questionable; the whole point of my post is that these are personal decisions that have research on either side and the territory is murky.  Some people put GMOs into that category.  YMMV.

charis

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2015, 01:59:58 PM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

It's a benefit if you don't understand science.

Perfect response!

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2015, 02:02:51 PM »
Yes!  Hell yes!   

It is most definitely worth it.   Problem is that I can't wrap my head around it on a cost basis,  so I just don't do it.

Grass fed organic meat definitely beats the heck out of Confined Animal Feeding Operation industrial meat.

In your non organic meat you will find antibiotics,  weird drugs,  all sorts of "cides",  artificial hormones and the fat profile doesn't even resemble real food. 

Wish I weren't such a short sighted cheap ass!

To get the Organic certification it states that animals must be provided access to the outdoors. It does not define for how long, frequency, or how large the space outdoors will be. Your Organic certified meat can be just as confined with five minute exposure to sunlight. Unless you've met Bessie yourself and seen her conditions you have no clue if your organic meat is any better.

You are right about antibiotics and hormones.

Making Cents

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2015, 02:19:32 PM »
I think the answer to that depends on what kind of world you want future generations to inherit. I am mildly concerned about ingesting pesticides while still (hopefully) in my childbearing years, but that's not why I buy organic. I buy organic because I've seen firsthand what happens when rivers and coastal ocean waters are poisoned by an abundance of nitrates, phosphates, etc. When we are talking about waterway and ocean health, we are talking about 1/3 of the world's food supply. And that's not even taking into account lasting damage to soil and ecosystems on land.

When I make a purchase, i'm voting for the kind of world I want--that's how I think of spending, anyway. I don't want an unrecognizable world with an unstable environment, an unpredictable food supply, and the political instability that accompanies that. To me, supporting sustainable farming practices when I make my food purchases is all part of that bigger picture.

I totally respect folks who make a different decision for their families and put budgets first, but just wanted to point out that for some of us who do choose to cough up more at the register this has nothing to do with perceptions of nutrition.

firelight

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2015, 04:36:17 PM »
Thanks for the responses so far. The reason for the worry now is that my baby is starting to eat adult food and I'm worried I might not be giving her the best if I don't give her organic. While rationally I know there might not be much difference, it's the unknown that is making me choose organic food for her :( have you faced this?

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 04:54:45 PM »
Don't let fear make decisions for you. There... solved. :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 05:10:52 PM »
Thanks for the responses so far. The reason for the worry now is that my baby is starting to eat adult food and I'm worried I might not be giving her the best if I don't give her organic. While rationally I know there might not be much difference, it's the unknown that is making me choose organic food for her :( have you faced this?

Having a kid means dealing with an onslaught of guilt shit that marketers push at you.  Remember that there's very little difference between organic food and regular food as far as nutrition goes.  Also, remember that just getting the damned kid to eat anything after 18 months is going to be a knock down drag out battle.  It doesn't matter if it's organic or not when 90% of the food is hitting the floor and heading straight into the trash bin?  :P

4alpacas

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 05:20:51 PM »
Not really.

Also trying to frame your buying patterns off of a cutsy internet list is a little silly. Here is some information on the dirty dozen - http://vitals.lifehacker.com/why-you-shouldnt-buy-organic-based-on-the-dirty-dozen-1689190822
Thanks!  I hadn't read that article; it's very enlightening.

Schnurr

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 05:21:30 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.

Also keep in mind that at least in the United States, the National Organic Program is a marketing program, run by the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service. It is not a program that purports to certify "healthier" or "more environmentally friendly" food. It exists solely because consumers demand it and because sellers can demand a premium for produce that has been certified.

And finally, remember that pesticides are thoroughly studied and heavily regulated. That does not mean that we should blindly trust chemical companies or the government, just that we know a lot more about pesticides than about many other chemicals. And the levels of pesticide residues that are found on produce (both organic and non-organic) are routinely far below any levels of concern.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 05:36:13 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

Eric

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2015, 05:58:30 PM »
If you're eating mostly fruits and vegetables, then your body will be pretty happy regardless of whether they had natural or synthetic pesticides sprayed on them.  Freshness and taste is the main driver for me.  I pay extra from the farmers market for tomatoes, cherries, figs, kale, and asparagus.  I couldn't even tell you if they're organic or not, only that they taste better than the alternative.  Everything else I buy the cheapest I can find at the grocery/produce store.

kewper

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2015, 06:09:38 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271


fb132

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2015, 06:15:16 PM »
What is worse, autism or cancer from pesticides?? That is like when you are voting and you have to chose a candidate who is the least likely corrupted.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2015, 06:24:59 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/jun/autism-and-pesticides

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140623/study-links-pesticide-exposure-during-pregnancy-to-autism-risk-in-kids

Others available with quick google search. 

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 06:27:42 PM »
Not when the same product is many multiples of the price.

A while ago I was at the fresh food market. The regular green capsicums were about $2 a kilo (and about $6 at the nearby Woolies). At the organic stand at the market? $8.99 a kilo. The organic red capsicums were something crazy like $18.99 a kilo.

Most organic stuff seems to be at least twice the price. For that I'd rather buy the nornal fruit and vegies, although maybe the standards are higher here than in the States.

Eric

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 06:41:17 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/jun/autism-and-pesticides

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140623/study-links-pesticide-exposure-during-pregnancy-to-autism-risk-in-kids

Others available with quick google search.

PROTIP: If you're going to link to articles to make a point, at least read them to make sure they agree with you.

Neither article even contains the word "organic".  Sweet "quick google search" though.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 06:41:34 PM »
Not when the same product is many multiples of the price.

A while ago I was at the fresh food market. The regular green capsicums were about $2 a kilo (and about $6 at the nearby Woolies). At the organic stand at the market? $8.99 a kilo. The organic red capsicums were something crazy like $18.99 a kilo.

Most organic stuff seems to be at least twice the price. For that I'd rather buy the nornal fruit and vegies, although maybe the standards are higher here than in the States.

Organic is more expensive.  Only way to keep the price reasonably close is buying different items at different stores.  Costco has great deals on organic meats (ground beef in particular) and organic frozen fruit. Kroger has good sales/coupons on organic produce but is much more expensive on organic meat. Walmart's Wild Oats brand prices on organic canned goods are great. You just have to know where to look. Whole Paycheck is just too expensive all around.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2015, 06:45:06 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/jun/autism-and-pesticides

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140623/study-links-pesticide-exposure-during-pregnancy-to-autism-risk-in-kids

Others available with quick google search.

PROTIP: If you're going to link to articles to make a point, at least read them to make sure they agree with you.

Neither article even contains the word "organic".  Sweet "quick google search" though.

PROTIP: Read the whole quoted post to make sure that your punk response makes sense before acting like a jack***.   The whole point is that organic has 1/3 the pesticides as conventional, on average, and pesticide exposure is associated with autism. I bet you don't run your mouth like that in person, do you?

Kris

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2015, 06:45:48 PM »
I don't pay attention to organic. What I do pay attention to is the conditions under which my meat was raised.

Poultry, in particular, is often raised in absolutely sickening, should-be-criminal conditions in corporate farms.  I don't want to contribute to that.  So, I try to eat humanely grown, free range animals.

GoingConcern

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 06:47:33 PM »
Tbh it's debatable.  Anyone trying to tell you otherwise is lying. 


Eric

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 06:56:59 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/jun/autism-and-pesticides

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140623/study-links-pesticide-exposure-during-pregnancy-to-autism-risk-in-kids

Others available with quick google search.

PROTIP: If you're going to link to articles to make a point, at least read them to make sure they agree with you.

Neither article even contains the word "organic".  Sweet "quick google search" though.

PROTIP: Read the whole quoted post to make sure that your punk response makes sense before acting like a jack***.   The whole point is that organic has 1/3 the pesticides as conventional, on average, and pesticide exposure is associated with autism. I bet you don't run your mouth like that in person, do you?

Again, it's too bad you didn't read the articles that you posted.  They have nothing to do with EATING pesticides. 

You've twice now stated that "organic has 1/3 the pesticides" without a reference.  Please cite your source.  (and maybe read it first, just for fun)

Eric

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2015, 07:03:26 PM »
And how silly of me to think that articles posted in a thread about buying organic vs conventional produce would actually contain info about eating organic produce.  I'm certainly embarrassed.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2015, 07:08:51 PM »
For those of you who buy organic because of health reasons or a supposed milder impact on the environment, keep the following in mind. Organic DOES NOT MEAN pesticide free. Many "natural" pesticides can be used (and are heavily used) in organic farming, even though these "natural" pesticides can be more toxic (including to the environment) and may need to be used in much greater amounts than synthetic alternatives. On top of that, because organic growers are restricted in which pesticides they can use, they may end up applying pesticides much more often than if they had access to a modern, fit-for-purpose synthetic pesticide.
.

Looks like Web MD says that organic, on average, contains 1/3 the pesticide residue of conventional.  Add that to the studies I've seen of pesticides on autism and cancer and I think that organic is worth the price. 

Here is the quote from Webmd

"If you're talking about pesticides, the evidence is pretty conclusive. Your chances of getting pesticide residues are much less with organic food," says John Reganold, professor of soil science at Washington State University in Pullman, Wash.

Reganold points to a large-scale study done by the Consumers Union. Researchers looked at data from more than 94,000 food samples and 20 different crops. They found that organically grown crops consistently had about one-third as many pesticide residues as the conventionally grown versions. Organic foods also were far less likely to contain residues of more than one pesticide."

what studies? haha

http://io9.com/on-correlation-causation-and-the-real-cause-of-auti-1494972271

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/jun/autism-and-pesticides

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140623/study-links-pesticide-exposure-during-pregnancy-to-autism-risk-in-kids

Others available with quick google search.

PROTIP: If you're going to link to articles to make a point, at least read them to make sure they agree with you.

Neither article even contains the word "organic".  Sweet "quick google search" though.

PROTIP: Read the whole quoted post to make sure that your punk response makes sense before acting like a jack***.   The whole point is that organic has 1/3 the pesticides as conventional, on average, and pesticide exposure is associated with autism. I bet you don't run your mouth like that in person, do you?

Again, it's too bad you didn't read the articles that you posted.  They have nothing to do with EATING pesticides. 

You've twice now stated that "organic has 1/3 the pesticides" without a reference.  Please cite your source.  (and maybe read it first, just for fun)

The quotation is at the top of this post that both of us keep quoting. Here is the link so that you can 'verify' the quotation. And I know these articles as my best friend's nephew has autism and he is friends with my son and it has been discussed ad nauseous in my house. Just because you don't agree with my take doesn't make me wrong and you right.  If living by pesticide fields is linked to autism and organic food has 2/3 less pesticides isn't it reasonable to think that there could be a link between eating pesticides and autism?  It's always the real life punks with the big mouths online. I can picture you as I'm typing this.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/organic-food-better

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2015, 07:19:34 PM »
Like Kris, I try to only eat humanely raised meats and eggs.  Luckily, my local chain grocery store has a specific product line that fits those ethics.  I also do my own research on the farms in question.  Most are local.  I also have several autoimmune conditions that are controlled mostly with diet.  Eating hormone and antibiotic free meat is part of that.  Also, the organic/free range/humanely treated/grass fed meats taste so much better.  I couldn't go back.  Our food budget is pretty high but I save so much on medicine and surgery this way that it's worth it for me.  (I'm also gluten free and dairy free too for medical reasons.)

I don't bother w/ organic fruits and veggies.

forummm

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 07:32:01 PM »
There are so many chemicals in our environment, and we have such little understanding of what they do to humans. Pesticides is just one example of chemicals that we know are toxic to humans, but are present at lower levels in our foods, so we assume they are OK. Who knows what happens when we eat them for a long time. And who knows what happens when those chemicals interact with all the other chemicals in our bodies (everything from flame retardants to plasticizers to phthalates to etc). I think the good kind of organic is better for us and better for the environment. But the rules for organic labeling are suboptimal, so you aren't sure exactly what you are getting. But the same is true when you buy fish or vitamins--often what's on the label isn't what's actually in the package.

Eric

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 08:15:19 PM »
The quotation is at the top of this post that both of us keep quoting. Here is the link so that you can 'verify' the quotation.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/organic-food-better

Considering your current track record of posting links in this thread, yes, I think pretty much all of us would like to verify.

Somewhat surprisingly, that article does state the result of one study (without linking to it) that organic produce has 1/3 the pesticide.  However, it is specifically at odds with the article matchwed posted earlier. 
Quote
The problem is that the EWG's solutionóbuy organic if you are concerned about pesticidesówon't necessarily reduce your pesticide intake.

Organic farming uses pesticides too. In fact, here is the National List of pesticides approved for organic certified farms. It includes some fairly toxic substances, like copper sulfate, and many are not restricted in terms of how much a farmer can use. Just because "synthetic" pesticides are more strictly regulated doesn't mean the natural ones are healthier: Back before rotenone was banned, it was allowed on conventional and organic crops alike, since it comes from a plant rather than a synthetic source. Organic pesticides aren't necessarily better for the environment either.

This would be a moot point if we could compare the pesticides found on organic and conventional produce. You'll notice that the EWG only mentions the pesticides found on conventional produce: that's because the USDA doesn't test for organic pesticides.

They use a high-speed method that lets them test for hundreds of pesticides at a time, but the test can't detect many organic pesticides including copper sulfate and Bt toxin (famous for its role in GMO corn and soy, but it's also perfectly legal in organic farming).

We know that organic produce has less of the synthetic pesticides than conventional produce does (not zero, but less). But we don't have complete information on the total pesticide load, synthetic and organic, so it would be wrong to claim that organic produce has less. We just can't say.

So how do we know which one is correct?  I'm guessing we don't.  But I certainly wouldn't just state as a cold hard fact that organic definitely contains less pesticides.  It's not really clear.  Maybe the un-cited study from WebMD didn't account for the fact that many organic pesticides aren't even tested for.  An article like this from Scientific American pretty much states the same thing as the Lifehacker article.  That it's not really measured, or not measured properly.  But all three articles agree that that no matter the conclusion, pesticides are not inherently bad at low levels and that organic pesticides are not better than synthetic.  So at least that much is clear.  If you're going to ingest trace amounts of pesticides, the source hardly matters.

If living by pesticide fields is linked to autism and organic food has 2/3 less pesticides isn't it reasonable to think that there could be a link between eating pesticides and autism?

Your reasoning isn't all that solid.  It's the equivalent of high doses of radiation causes cancer, therefore having an x-ray 1/year at the dentist also causes cancer.  If you go to the dentist, you'll get cancer.

I can picture you as I'm typing this.

I should hope so.  My picture is just to the left.

Guizmo

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 09:00:19 PM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

It's a benefit if you don't understand science.

Yeah like science has never been wrong. Not too long ago many scientist thought that leaded gas was safe for humans. 

Rural

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2015, 02:59:52 AM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

It's a benefit if you don't understand science.

Yeah like science has never been wrong. Not too long ago many scientist thought that leaded gas was safe for humans.


Not if you drink it...

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2015, 04:22:35 AM »
I get that organic might taste better or be better for you etc, but honestly I'm not going to pay triple the price for something with organic on it. I'd pay a small amount extra, maybe 20-50%, but not triple the price.

Kinda reminds me of the paleo muesli that I saw for sale for $20 in a small supermarket a couple of months ago. That's an awful lot of money for a fad diet. Someone's making a fortune. Meanwhile I'll happily buy the regular muesli for $4.

The other thing is, I live in an urban area, and cycle to work. I'm sure I'm exposed to more chemicals on my half hour ride to work (petrol/diesel fumes, etc) than would be present in any non-organic food I eat.

As far as animal welfare goes, I'll happily buy the free range meat for a bit more (and outright refuse to buy cage eggs).

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2015, 04:46:17 AM »
Quote
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

Geez, folks.  It's a benefit if you care about GMOs.  Not everyone does.  Not trying to make a political statement; it's just a reason why some people choose organic.  Note that my list of benefits is *intended* to be questionable; the whole point of my post is that these are personal decisions that have research on either side and the territory is murky.  Some people put GMOs into that category.  YMMV.

I care about GMOs. I care that there's technology in its early stages that could be being used to reduce malnutrition and make the world a better place, but its use is stunted because of smug, ignorant, paranoid pseudo-hippies who fool the vaguely interested.

As for fertilizer pollution - Organic also uses fertilizer, it's just more likely to be manure rather than fertilizer produced in a factory. Both contribute substantially to the nitrogen and phosphorus in surface waters which lead to dead zones. (You can find streams foamy from nitrogen pollution downstream of dairy farms where nobody's been injecting ammonium nitrate into the ground.) Honestly the best way to reduce nitrogen pollution is to eat less protein. Most of that nitrogen leaves you, too, and contributes to pollution starting at the effluent pipe from your local sewage treatment plant. And the animals you're eating defecated and urinated their whole lives, too.

GuitarStv

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2015, 06:14:00 AM »
Why is non-GMO a "benefit"?

It's a benefit if you don't understand science.

Yeah like science has never been wrong. Not too long ago many scientist thought that leaded gas was safe for humans.

The reason science works is that it uses the best known evidence at the time to draw conclusions.  If new evidence is brought forward, the conclusion is revised.

Could science be wrong about GMOs?  Sure, there's an outside possibility of anything.  To date there exists no evidence that genetically modified food is more dangerous that regular food though (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21601831-little-state-could-kneecap-biotech-industry-vermont-v-science, http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10977/safety-of-genetically-engineered-foods-approaches-to-assessing-unintended-health#toc, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2408621/, http://ec.europa.eu/research/biosociety/pdf/a_decade_of_eu-funded_gmo_research.pdf, http://www.genetics.org/content/188/1/11.long).  Believing otherwise is a leap of faith based on opinion, not valid data.

Trying to use the fact that science corrects its mistakes as an indicator that we should ignore the best scientific information is a facile argument.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
I still eat GMO's but I have one concern I haven't seen addressed here.

I don't think anyone can deny proliferation of true food allergies.  I don't just mean fad diets but people going into anaphalaxis. Celiac is on the rise.  My body cannot process gluten or dairy.  My immune system goes nuts.  This isn't "hippy medicine" but a board certified specialist at one of the countries most renowned teaching hospitals diagnosing me and prohibiting me from eating it.

One of my nagging questions is why are autoimmune diseases and allergies (also autoimmune) on the rise.  One speculative answer I have heard is that, using wheat as one example, the wheat we eat today is not the wheat our ancestors ate.  Something is different about it and not everyone's body can handle it.  When I look for what is different, one thing I see is GMOs.  Maybe for some reason my body sees certain modified foods as not food and treats it as an invader.  I don't know.  Like I said, I still eat GMO just not wheat and dairy.  For those interested in the topic, I am also allergic to Red Dye 40, strawberries, avocados (tears shed for that one) and possibly now mangoes.

I asked my doctor if people just didn't report these allergies years ago.  She doubts it, especially since the symptoms for many are so severe.  Hives, trouble breathing, etc.  When I was in school, one kid had an epipen for bees.  I didn't know any others.  Today, my mom (a teacher) carries 7 epipens for one class.  That means a third of her students have life threatening allergies.  That doesn't count the others with non-life threatening allergies.  More than half her class has some food restriction.  Since they are toddlers, it is on her to monitor it.

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2015, 08:15:53 AM »
Epigenetics and exposure are two factors which I would look towards more so than GMO's in the rise of allergies.

Wheat has been genetically modified by humans for tens of thousands of years. Why are the last few decades so scary? Because it's faster? Because the transparency isn't there unless you read a huge amount of studies and science?

Kiwis were introduced to European and American markets in the 60's, not GMO, ever, now there are people who are allergic (source). Could the rise of allergic people to kiwis be related at all to GMO? No. So there is some other mechanism which is not yet known.

All GMO's are tested for allergens in people. This is part of the process of development of GMO products. It's great that people are asking questions, questions are fine, but ignoring the answers or just seeking answers that suit their opinions is not.

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2015, 08:19:15 AM »
Also no approved GMO peanuts, yet peanut allergies are also on the rise.

GuitarStv

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2015, 08:28:24 AM »
Also no approved GMO peanuts, yet peanut allergies are also on the rise.

There's some evidence to suggest that peanut consumption of the mother while pregnant correlates to reduced chance of allergic reaction to them in offspring.  http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1793699

matchewed

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Re: Organic food... Worth the price?
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2015, 08:33:01 AM »
Also no approved GMO peanuts, yet peanut allergies are also on the rise.

There's some evidence to suggest that peanut consumption of the mother while pregnant correlates to reduced chance of allergic reaction to them in offspring.  http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1793699

Epigenetics and exposure? Shock! Gasp!