Optimizing Promotion

[dragonwalker]

I have been working as a Business Analyst at a credit union in the Los Angeles area for the past 3 years, I make $75K. I have worked at the same CU for about 6 years where I steadily made gains from different positions but as you all may know staying with the same company often comes with the downside of being on the lower end of the pay scale. I had about 9 years at another banking institution but I think I came in a position to low and got hammered with standard raise/promotion bumps that don't compare to people coming from outside into more senior positions. I am 36 and disappointed by my compensation but there are pretty good benefits.

I am about to get married in August and I had really hoped I would be in a better place career wise because the plan is to have kids next year and I know the additional time and stress could impact some of my time commitment at work. I have been doing extra things both in and out of work to put myself in a better position to get into management such as participating in a company leadership program and getting my MBA (which I should be finishing by the end of this year).   

The management here does encourage growth and I am optimistic about opportunities but business as a whole for the company has been much slower the last 1-2 years and I've noticed a slow down in growth. Moving into management isn't the easiest thing trying to navigate politics and demonstrate capability which I'm sure is the same everywhere.

My fiancé has an income about 4 times higher (doctor) but she is going to seek more part time work after she has children so household income will drop significantly. I have been taking a look at other positions at other companies to see if it's worth jumping ship. I've seen a number of other positions that I qualify for making in the $80K-$90K range and potentially higher after I get my MBA but I kind of feel it's not much different. Meanwhile I've really been making a push to network at work and even applied to management positions but I often face this conundrum where hiring managers feel more comfortable promoting a SME within the department because they know the stuff best or someone with prior management experience. I have very limited prior management experience and there is only so much knowledge I have in certain departments. A move to management does mean pay around $100K+ and I feel is more in line with the long term vision of where I want to be as far as career. I have decided to take a calculated risk with my management and let them know about my longer term plan in the hopes that it won't stop my progression within the department. It seems to be working insofar as obtaining a level of commitment for promotion within the year. About 1 year ago I had also asked for a raise and was also granted most of my request so I feel there is truth behind the words of support. Through some analysis I feel I am likely to be offered $82K.

In the meantime I have been putting out some applications to get a sense of what is out there and what the market is for me and I did get a response back after only just a few applications sent out at another CU. The position has a range up to $88K. It's not likely I would be offered this but my thinking is  I could make it all the way through and obtain a higher offer than what I'm likely to be offered here. I could then use this offer when presented with the new salary as a way to negotiate a higher salary. Given my situation, would it be effective to do so or could it hurt my longer term prospects here? I believe management isn't naive to the fact I could leave but I wonder if being so direct about the efforts I've put in would discourage them from investing more into me in the future (this is the political/social aspect I'm not sure about).  In people's experience does this work? Best case scenario the offer I might get elsewhere may be between $5K-$10K higher and unless the timing was incredibly good, these would be offers that would no longer be available at the time I am actually given the promotion. Another thought would be to  present the offer I have before actually getting the promotion here however I think this is riskier but could be more effective as its easier for them to modify any potential offer because I know they have to go through an entire justification and request process to do it. I'm only considering this because I've been assured by my manager and VP that the request is currently in the works but it takes months to finalize. Also, I am the most junior person in my department so I have less leverage as far as how important I am. I believe management sees potential in me as part of the pipeline for future growth but I'm not incredibly essential but I can do the work of more senior department members. In some ways I kind of feel I'm in some ways leverage to more senior people who know I could replace them and for less! However, I am easy to manage, no problems, and work well with management. 

Besides pay, the incentive to find a workplace closer to my fiancé is growing as more of the money I've gotten from work for school no longer needs to be paid back because they have a clawback period and if I did live full time with my fiance, I could rent out my condo where I live as well. Ideally, I could transition to another company as a manager but that may not be likely given my lack of management experience.   

[reeshau]

What exactly are you trying to optimize?  You seem to be looking to make incrementally more at your work.  As a couple, the best decision for the money is obvious: you stay at home with the kids, and let your 4x earning doctor fiancé continue working, as much as she wants.  Is there a particular reason you didn't address this head on?

It's perfectly fine to go for something other than maximum money; it just seems like that's what you are trying to do.

[Laura33]

First, it is always risky to bring in another job offer and ask them to match it; you need to be ready to take that other offer if things go south.  But it also sounds like your management is slow to act, so it's very likely you would get only vague promises before you'd have to decide whether to take the other offer.

What you should do is have a very frank discussion with your boss about your career options once you get your MBA.  You have every right to know what it takes to get a management position, and a good manager/company should be able to give you criteria and estimated timelines.  And if you are very clear about wanting a management-level position, they can read between the lines that they'd better come up with a solution or you're gone.  And if you don't get a good answer, that very likely means they won't/can't give you what you want, and you should be looking.

Finally, I would wait to look in earnest until you get the MBA.  Once you have that on your resume, you will be able to apply for a much wider number of positions.  "I'm getting it soon" often won't even get you into the office for an interview. 

Alternatively, of course, you could decide to work less and spend more time at home with kids, to free your fiancee up to work more in her higher-paying job.  You're probably not up for quitting entirely, since you've just put all this effort into getting your MBA, but it would be entirely reasonable to prioritize a short commute and shorter work hours over pay when looking for a new job.  But that's for you and your fiancee to figure out.

[dragonwalker]

What exactly are you trying to optimize?  You seem to be looking to make incrementally more at your work.  As a couple, the best decision for the money is obvious: you stay at home with the kids, and let your 4x earning doctor fiancé continue working, as much as she wants.  Is there a particular reason you didn't address this head on?

It's perfectly fine to go for something other than maximum money; it just seems like that's what you are trying to do.

Believe it or not I was trying to make this question brief but I'll provide some more info that can answer why it's just not that simple. Despite my fiancés income, she does have quite of bit of high expenses like a very expensive house, high student debt, and a mother who lives with her that helps a little with expenses but there is still a net cost. With her intending to reduce her work time and if I weren't working with a possible kid, it likely won't work out. Fortunately she is very frugal in most other aspects of her life so it might not be as right as she describes. Even though she makes a lot of money, being a doctor is extremely taxing with all the extra works she takes home so she's already starting to burn out. Our household is really going to need another income which is compatible with what I want because I do want to work as well. I think we can both work and raise a family. However, when it comes to physical time to be places for child rearing, I admit that I'm in a more flexible position to do that. To the extent that impacts my career is unclear. That's why I'm still trying to balance benefits and pay and I feel I have more to gain on pay while I still can keep my benefits. That's why I'm trying to increase my skillsets to get there. I seem to be making more incremental increases which is not what I want to do so help me out if you can with a suggestion to bypass that.

@Laura33 it sounds like in your opinion I should not bring up other job offers? Judging by the time it takes to make a decision on things, I doubt anyone can get a response in time from our company to counter another offer before they have to choose. My plan is really to wait till I get my MBA/next year to really start searching. For the time being I am browsing and just through out the occasional one that seem to be a very good fit. Another benefit is I get to work 3 days from home which is worth a lot and I'm grateful for and may be hard to replace.   

[reeshau]

Finally, I would wait to look in earnest until you get the MBA.  Once you have that on your resume, you will be able to apply for a much wider number of positions.  "I'm getting it soon" often won't even get you into the office for an interview. 

Your school should also have a placement office that could help you expand your horizons as to possibilities.  They will also know what companies are looking for MBA's, and specifically MBA's from your school.  Don't miss out on the opportunity to connect through them.

[Catbert]

I'm a long retired HR manager and agree completely with Laura33 that you should not try to use a job offer from elsewhere to get your management to increase your compensation.  My advice to managers in that situation was always, "let them go".  Once an employee has gone to the trouble of finding another job because they didn't feel adequately paid and/or appreciated, they've decided go eventually.  When management ignored my advice and convinced an employee to stay they usually left within 6 months.  So, yeah, don't come with an offer unless you are willing to happily take it. 

[lucenzo11]

I agree with others that you should not push too hard on a finding employment elsewhere until you get your MBA. I don't know how much value that adds to you, but I have to believe it will do something and you should get more money if you switch jobs after getting your MBA, then if you switch now and then expect or ask for a raise after getting the MBA.

Where I partially disagree with the other responses is on not bringing an offer to your company as leverage. In some fields (YMMV) doing this is absolutely a valid strategy. It comes with risk but it can be very effective. The corporate world no longer expects employees to stick around forever and with all the movement that happened during the pandemic, countering is happening and is part of the game now. All the red tape of getting a promotion or raise can evaporate so quickly with an outside offer. I've seen quite a few colleagues ask for something, be told it's not in the budget, go get an outside offer, and within 24 hours they are offered a matching salary or offered a promotion. I even heard of a manager telling his report to go get an outside offer because the higher ups didn't have enough promotions to give out. The main key is you have to do it tactfully. It can't be "I went and got this offer elsewhere, match it or I leave". It has to be more of "A recruiter reached out to me with an opportunity, I cautiously pursued it and they gave me this offer. I really like working here and I don't want to leave, but the offer is really tempting. Can we discuss my compensation?"

But here are the considerations you have to make before doing this:
1. You have to be ready to walk. It they don't like you as much as you think they do or they just really don't have a way to address this and don't counter, then you have to walk. You can not stay if they don't counter because then they just caught your bluff.
2. Some companies/industries may look down on you for this, but it's way more common now and somewhat expected. It's not the red flag that it used to be. Yes, the majority of people that do this end up leaving anyways in the near future, but you have to do what is in your best interest. You are offering them to ability to continue getting value out of you. Sure if may not be for the rest of your career, but if they like you then hopefully they'd want you to stick around for another year or two even if you can't commit to 10.
3. You shouldn't bring forward any offer/accept any outside offer for less than 15%. I consider 15% to be the minimum. 20% and up is ideal. Depending on the job and industry, switching jobs takes some time to adjust and your growth may be slow early on at the new company. So the compensation has to be there to offset that. Or there has to be another benefit there which you company doesn't offer.
4. If you can ask for something other or in addition to money that really helps the situation. It shows that you aren't just out there to get any extra dollar you can. I know you said optimization, but optimizing isn't always about just money. For example, if you want more vacation days or days working from home, etc, asking for those too will help if they want to negotiate the counter.

dragonwalker, the piece here which still complicates all of this is that your current company is seemingly entertaining (maybe even actively working on) trying to get you into their management. If that is truly the case, then this may be one of those situations where they actually do want you around for the long haul and showing some loyalty (not seeking outside offers) to them could be beneficial.

[dragonwalker]

@Catbert @lucenzo11

I just wanted to clarify that what I am proposing is that I obtain a written offer from a company that I'm now interviewing to use it as leverage for a higher offer specifically when I am given a promotion this year. It's not quite the same as what I'm reading you are describing which is telling my employer I have an offer and I will leave if not given a higher offer.

By the time this supposed promotion comes around, my employer will already know the opportunity to leave has passed. @Catbert in this type of situation, do you still advise against using this information? I suppose presenting it still means I went through the effort already but would you take on it be any different?

@lucenzo11 It's not so much my company is actively working on making me manager, its more so I've enrolled in a leadership training program which shows my interest (it's broadly open to any non management staff). I would not characterize my work experience indicates any specific attention from higher management. 

[lucenzo11]

So you want to get an offer now with little to no intention of taking it and then when you get a promotion and discuss salary you want to use this now expired offer as negotiation leverage?

If that is correct, then I would not recommend doing that. It's just going to be very difficult to walk the line. The value of the offer as leverage will be greatly decreased. What even is the leverage at that point? If it's purely informational to show that you could get more on the open market, then it's easy for your current company to ignore because they know you didn't take it and once they know you didn't take it, they have no need to compete with it. All it accomplishes is that they then know you are open to other opportunities which could be viewed as quite negative.

If you really want to use it then I'd suggest not presenting the written offer and just mentioning that a friend of yours recently was offered X for a similar position or vaguely mention that you looked at data on glassdoor and you feel that X is an appropriate salary. It's not very strong for negotiating but it does present the data point that you seem to want to give without the added risk of an empty offer.

[dragonwalker]

Yes, that is the plan. I know that the value of my offer is greatly diminished once it expires but here's the thing. I do not know what my company will offer me on a promotion (or for that matter when exactly it will be). The pay range is very wide anywhere +/-$15K from a mid point of about $92K. However, from personal experience, talking to others, and internal documents I've found, internal employees typically get a very modest promotion jump. My thinking with this offer in hand is proof that I have more value than what they are likely to come at me with. We're not talking big money here, I'm looking for several thousand more but I see another job offer as solid evidence that I have the willingness to leave. It's so frustrating to see long term employees who have worked up to get a promotion to constantly get paid on the lower end of the payband while a new and untested person comes in much higher and often with uncertainties that often lead to issues anyway. Am I not accurate in my assessment or would it do more damage than good? Meanwhile I'm trying to be the good employee, continuing education, internal leadership programs, etc.

I am grateful that about a year ago I did take the step to ask for a raise using public information I had access to and my current pay base and I was granted a raise so I feel that management is trying to work with me. 

[lucenzo11]

Am I not accurate in my assessment or would it do more damage than good?

You are closest to the situation and you could absolutely be right that they would work with you in this situation, but I still don't see the value in giving them an expired offer. It's risky (may help or it may hurt) with much less upside than a live offer. You'd have to present it in a very precise way to get the result you are looking for.

If the promotion timing is more of an if, I'm in favor of showing them the best live offer you can get now and ask for the promotion and money right now. Why does waiting around help? Delaying to me does not seem optimal except for the whole MBA piece. This all comes from my experience of dealing with very slow corporate management that loves to delay promotion and raise action. This is not representative of all companies so only you can truly assess whether they really want to work with you to move you up and how they'd react to an outside offer.

It's so frustrating to see long term employees who have worked up to get a promotion to constantly get paid on the lower end of the payband while a new and untested person comes in much higher and often with uncertainties that often lead to issues anyway.

Unfortunately, this is the game that most companies play now. I don't like it either.