Author Topic: Obamacare role call!  (Read 13447 times)

malacca

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Obamacare role call!
« on: August 01, 2014, 11:31:37 PM »
Like it, love it or hate it, it is here.

Who has signed up for ACA through their state's website?


hexdexorex

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 12:11:42 AM »
Required some effort but I helped mom sign up last year. Her first time being able to afford insurance.

malacca

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 02:11:50 PM »
Is everyone on MMM still working?

Seems to me if people aren't employed full time they would most likely sign up using an ACA website.

Am I the only one not working anymore?

Website was a POS and riddled with errors. But finally got a plan and it was much cheaper than any non Swiss cheese plan I found before ACA. Still 5X the price of my previous plan (outside the US).

Bethersonton

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 02:18:08 PM »
I did! Took four months for the damn site to work, but it's the first time I've been able to get insurance since my husband quit his job in 2011. My pre-existing condition left me uninsurable, but no longer. Now we have a high deductible plan and I can sleep at night knowing if anything happens we won't go bankrupt.

geekette

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 02:52:58 PM »
We quit our more expensive Cobra plan and got an ACA plan in May. We reseached thoroughly (there were a lot of options and info was buried deep) but managed to pick a plan that included our GP. So far it's gone pretty well.

Eta: we qualify for subsidies, but are not taking any at this time.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 07:33:14 PM by geekette »

malacca

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 05:42:28 PM »
Anybody get any subsidies?

geekette

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 03:20:21 PM »
BTW, I had a CT scan yesterday (long story).  I knew with my $3500 deductible that insurance wouldn't pay, but once again, I was happy that I had insurance - cash price: $1100.  Insurance negotiated rate?  Less than half.

Emilyngh

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2014, 03:28:28 PM »
Like it, love it or hate it, it is here.

Who has signed up for ACA through their state's website?

Signed my sister up.   With her pre-existing condition her premiums went from $800+/mo to $270 (she qualifies for no subsidies).   She went from a $20k/ year deductible (which she always got up to b/c of her medical expenses) to $5k deductible and max $6350 per year out of pocket expenses.   So, her medical costs have done from $30k+ per year to a max of less than $10k a year.   

I have employer insurance, so don't qualify, but would sign up tomorrow if I did.   Now, if my state will only expand medicaid....

daverobev

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 03:49:55 PM »
Role = a part for an actor
Roll is a list, so roll call is like taking a register for a class - calling out each person's name to check they are there.

Just FYI, no bitchiness intended.

Bank

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 03:58:38 PM »
Just signed up my side hustle (it's only a side hustle to me - it has employees) for the New York State plan.  Getting the top plan for approximately what we were paying before for a HDHP.  Funny thing - before we weren't paying anything for healthcare because the HDHP plan was so bad no employees wanted it.  Now we're stumping up half the premiums for an employee who has opted in.  I guess you could see that as a loss.  I see it as a win. 

Operationally, there have been no issues so far, but it's early.

Richie Poor

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2014, 04:10:56 PM »
Signed my wife up for a BCBS gold plan. It was her first time being insured so she was excited. She had really bad luck with doctors right away and then when they referred her to specialists they would call and tell us two days before they stopped accepting our plan. There were a lot more frustrations and I know most of them were a problem with the plan we were on and may not be indicative of ACA as a whole. We were told we couldn't change our plan until the next enrollment period (November). So we cancelled the insurance policy out of frustration.

We have been paying cash and a lot of things seem to be cheaper. The quality of doctors increased substantially now that we can pick anyone we want. I just joined a Christian healthcare bill sharing program so we will find out if it can be a long term solution.

Bergal

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2014, 07:48:14 PM »
I signed up for an BCBS gold plan through DC's HealthLink, which worked much better than the federal site!  Previously, I had an Aetna policy for five years.  When I signed up for it, I had to provide TEN years of health information (every doctor's appt, test, etc) and they called several times about different things I had sought treatment for.  Then they raised the premium above what was initially promised because of a few of the diagnoses (none of which was serious).   I always felt that they would dump me if anything bad actually happened.  The ACA is far from perfect but I am happy with my plan.  I do not qualify for subsidies.

Emg03063

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2014, 08:05:41 PM »
Have done; getting subsidies (although I will in all likelihood have to refund some of it), loving it!

pdxvandal

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2014, 09:31:49 PM »
My Bronze HSA plan begins in September. It was terrible dealing with the state exchange (Cover Oregon) ... had to wait four months after applying to get approved (simple paperwork on their part) and this was after many calls and false starts.

Anyway, glad to be almost insured again. I voted for ACA and still believe it's a step in the right direction, but it was a frustrating clusterfuk to deal with. It will get better over time (otherwise, I'm off to Canada).

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 11:32:36 PM »
I'm currently trying to figure out if I can exploit this. I get insurance through my parents (even though my workplace offers it) until age 26. My company actually pays me almost $2K a year to not sign up for the healthcare plan. It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.

Insurance is a horrible deal for a young healthy adult male - I'm paying for both old people and women, both categories who have much higher costs than me (it's funny how it's no longer permissible to discriminate by gender in health insurance, but perfectly acceptable in car insurance - double standard?).

cdub

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 11:47:33 PM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 12:07:16 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

geekette

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 07:46:44 AM »
Ahh, the invincibility of youth...

Open enrollment in the fall. New policy starts in January. Good luck if you get diagnosed with  a brain tumor (like my very healthy 18 year old nephew did). Waiting months with a tumor growing would really suck.

Funny thing is, even that nephew, when he aged out of his parent's policy and was running his own non-profit, didn't want to bother to get a policy.

See paragraph one.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 08:58:29 AM by geekette »

Bank

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2014, 08:30:33 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

Leaving aside the questionable ethics of this tactic - be aware that it takes awhile for your coverage to kick in.  At least it does in New York.  So if you suffer an injury, you are going to be paying out of pocket for anything that occurs prior to your coverage start date.  Say you break your leg - unless you're planning on gimping around for a couple months, you're going to be paying for that out of your own money.

Modified to say -- I should have read geekette's response more carefully.  Doh!

tmac

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 08:36:01 AM »
Family of 5. Self-employed. We signed up for coverage, with subsidies, for $500 less per month than we were paying for our HSA. So, yeah, it's working for us.

FIRE_HELP!

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2014, 08:41:07 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

no offense, as you merely doing what is in your best interest, but with incentives like this is it any question that the legislation as it is currently passed is horrible and will only increase costs for everyone else who isn't 'gaming' the system or has coverage via employer?

good for early retirees, invincible youth and slackers in the underground economy - bad for almost everyone else....

rtrnow

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2014, 08:48:35 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

no offense, as you merely doing what is in your best interest, but with incentives like this is it any question that the legislation as it is currently passed is horrible and will only increase costs for everyone else who isn't 'gaming' the system or has coverage via employer?

good for early retirees, invincible youth and slackers in the underground economy - bad for almost everyone else....

Sort of, this person is trying to game the system but also taking a big risk. Plans take effect in January unless you have a qualifying event (getting sick certainly is not one). So get sick in February and you will be waiting 11 months for health care or paying out of pocket. Not a risk I'm willing to take.

I just purchased a plan on the fed exchange and am quite pleased. The whole sign up process including paying my first premium took less than 20 minutes. I guess the bugs have been worked out.

dandarc

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2014, 09:06:51 AM »
Haven't signed up yet, and won't for quite a while because my wife gets a great deal on health insurance through work, but I did get some quotes to prepare for FIRE (at least 7-10 years in advance - I like to be prepared).  With our income today, it is very expensive, but when I tried a lower retired "income" the subsidies brought it down a lot - like practically free in a lot of cases.  Managing your withdrawals is even more important in early retirement now to keep that Affordable Care Act MAGI down to maximize your subsidy, it would appear (without making it so low that you have to take Medicaid instead, assuming you would prefer Obamacare to medicaid).

I'd be willing to bet an asset test becomes a part of it before we actually retire, but if we're lucky maybe not.

dandarc

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2014, 09:13:15 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

no offense, as you merely doing what is in your best interest, but with incentives like this is it any question that the legislation as it is currently passed is horrible and will only increase costs for everyone else who isn't 'gaming' the system or has coverage via employer?

good for early retirees, invincible youth and slackers in the underground economy - bad for almost everyone else....

Sort of, this person is trying to game the system but also taking a big risk. Plans take effect in January unless you have a qualifying event (getting sick certainly is not one). So get sick in February and you will be waiting 11 months for health care or paying out of pocket. Not a risk I'm willing to take.

I just purchased a plan on the fed exchange and am quite pleased. The whole sign up process including paying my first premium took less than 20 minutes. I guess the bugs have been worked out.

This - while this strategy could mitigate the life-long cost, that event that convinces you to finally get insurance could still bankrupt you - for example if you suffer a spinal injury.  Outcomes are a lot better now, but that initial rehab (the most important part of treatment) can run into the many thousands of dollars a day range to give you that better chance at a good outcome.  So this is still a very high-risk strategy.

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2014, 11:39:34 AM »
It may be worth it to buy the cheapest plan possible from the exchange once I turn 26 (I have absolutely no need for healthcare). My ideal is to just not get insurance at all, but I'm not sure if I can get avoid the tax due to my income.


That's tempting fate - what if you get hit by a car? have an accident? get cancer? or anything else. As a healthy young male insurance should be extremely affordable on the exchange - especially with subsidies...

Everyone needs health insurance. It should be included automatically LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER COUNTRY - but it isn't.

With Obamacare I can't be denied for insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so I can just get health insurance if something bad happens. If anything, Obamacare makes me want to buy insurance even less.

I spend zilch on healthcare each year. Saving that money I'd be spending on insurance and investing it, then having it available to spend if anything comes up, is a much better deal.

no offense, as you merely doing what is in your best interest, but with incentives like this is it any question that the legislation as it is currently passed is horrible and will only increase costs for everyone else who isn't 'gaming' the system or has coverage via employer?

good for early retirees, invincible youth and slackers in the underground economy - bad for almost everyone else....

Sort of, this person is trying to game the system but also taking a big risk. Plans take effect in January unless you have a qualifying event (getting sick certainly is not one). So get sick in February and you will be waiting 11 months for health care or paying out of pocket. Not a risk I'm willing to take.

I just purchased a plan on the fed exchange and am quite pleased. The whole sign up process including paying my first premium took less than 20 minutes. I guess the bugs have been worked out.

This - while this strategy could mitigate the life-long cost, that event that convinces you to finally get insurance could still bankrupt you - for example if you suffer a spinal injury.  Outcomes are a lot better now, but that initial rehab (the most important part of treatment) can run into the many thousands of dollars a day range to give you that better chance at a good outcome.  So this is still a very high-risk strategy.

My only real chances for injury are while cycling, and I'm an extremely safe rider due to following all laws and clearly signaling.

Anyway, I just found out this additional tidbit: you can actually avoid the Obamacare tax entirely by simply adjusting your withholding to ensure the IRS always pays you something at the end of the year. So I can get a win-win-win:
  • Not paying for insurance at my employer
  • Getting paid additional funds by my employer to wauive my employer's insurance
  • Avoiding the Obamacare tax (entirely legally)

Overall, I make around $4K a year by not enrolling in insurance. That's no paltry sum.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2014, 11:49:44 AM »
My only real chances for injury are while cycling, and I'm an extremely safe rider due to following all laws and clearly signaling.

Anyway, I just found out this additional tidbit: you can actually avoid the Obamacare tax entirely by simply adjusting your withholding to ensure the IRS always pays you something at the end of the year. So I can get a win-win-win:
  • Not paying for insurance at my employer
  • Getting paid additional funds by my employer to wauive my employer's insurance
  • Avoiding the Obamacare tax (entirely legally)

Overall, I make around $4K a year by not enrolling in insurance. That's no paltry sum.

Leaving aside the Lake Wobegone effect, injury due to transportation accounts for only about 3% of hospitalizations for young men.  You may want to re-calibrate your risk scale.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442452801

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2014, 12:05:57 PM »
My only real chances for injury are while cycling, and I'm an extremely safe rider due to following all laws and clearly signaling.

Anyway, I just found out this additional tidbit: you can actually avoid the Obamacare tax entirely by simply adjusting your withholding to ensure the IRS always pays you something at the end of the year. So I can get a win-win-win:
  • Not paying for insurance at my employer
  • Getting paid additional funds by my employer to wauive my employer's insurance
  • Avoiding the Obamacare tax (entirely legally)

Overall, I make around $4K a year by not enrolling in insurance. That's no paltry sum.

Leaving aside the Lake Wobegone effect, injury due to transportation accounts for only about 3% of hospitalizations for young men.  You may want to re-calibrate your risk scale.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442452801

Yeah, I actually have an extremely low risk profile, even among young men. Most risky things that young men men my age do, I don't do (I'm a fairly risk-adverse person in general). Thanks for those statistics; I actually feel even safer now.

So there's a minute risk I might develop cancer. Do I want to pay to avoid incredibly unlikely things? No, and if I do develop such a condition, it won't wipe me out instantly, such that I can enroll in insurance.

Go Curry Cracker's post on this summarizes my view well - self-insuring. And I also won't need insurance in early retirement.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2014, 12:16:16 PM »
My only real chances for injury are while cycling, and I'm an extremely safe rider due to following all laws and clearly signaling.

Anyway, I just found out this additional tidbit: you can actually avoid the Obamacare tax entirely by simply adjusting your withholding to ensure the IRS always pays you something at the end of the year. So I can get a win-win-win:
  • Not paying for insurance at my employer
  • Getting paid additional funds by my employer to wauive my employer's insurance
  • Avoiding the Obamacare tax (entirely legally)

Overall, I make around $4K a year by not enrolling in insurance. That's no paltry sum.

Leaving aside the Lake Wobegone effect, injury due to transportation accounts for only about 3% of hospitalizations for young men.  You may want to re-calibrate your risk scale.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442452801

Yeah, I actually have an extremely low risk profile, even among young men. Most risky things that young men men my age do, I don't do (I'm a fairly risk-adverse person in general). Thanks for those statistics; I actually feel even safer now.

So there's a minute risk I might develop cancer. Do I want to pay to avoid incredibly unlikely things? No, and if I do develop such a condition, it won't wipe me out instantly, such that I can enroll in insurance.

Go Curry Cracker's post on this summarizes my view well - self-insuring. And I also won't need insurance in early retirement.

A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2014, 12:27:45 PM »
A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Is that statistic 0.5% or 1% every year, or through the entire lifespan of 20-29? If the later it's definitely high. And remember, if I do get cancer, I can just enroll in insurance! Cancer doesn't kill you instantly - if it did, there would be almost no hope of treatment.

Accidents, as I already stated, are less likely for me due to my risk profile. I've never broken a bone in my life. I've never been to the emergency room. I'm an extremely low risk to hospitalize from accidents relative to my age group.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2014, 12:33:39 PM »
A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Is that statistic 0.5% or 1% every year, or through the entire lifespan of 20-29? If the later it's definitely high. And remember, if I do get cancer, I can just enroll in insurance! Cancer doesn't kill you instantly - if it did, there would be almost no hope of treatment.

Accidents, as I already stated, are less likely for me due to my risk profile. I've never broken a bone in my life. I've never been to the emergency room. I'm an extremely low risk to hospitalize from accidents relative to my age group.

That's each year.  And someone else addressed the problem of waiting until you get sick to get insurance.

And my point about other hospitalizations was to say that it doesn't matter how likely you think accidents are.  Let's say you're right and there's 0% chance of you getting into an accident, ever.  That still leaves the other 97% of hospitalizations not caused by accidents.

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2014, 12:52:09 PM »
A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Is that statistic 0.5% or 1% every year, or through the entire lifespan of 20-29? If the later it's definitely high. And remember, if I do get cancer, I can just enroll in insurance! Cancer doesn't kill you instantly - if it did, there would be almost no hope of treatment.

Accidents, as I already stated, are less likely for me due to my risk profile. I've never broken a bone in my life. I've never been to the emergency room. I'm an extremely low risk to hospitalize from accidents relative to my age group.

That's each year.  And someone else addressed the problem of waiting until you get sick to get insurance.

And my point about other hospitalizations was to say that it doesn't matter how likely you think accidents are.  Let's say you're right and there's 0% chance of you getting into an accident, ever.  That still leaves the other 97% of hospitalizations not caused by accidents.

So you're telling me I have a 10% chance to develop cancer simply by living to age 29? That's ridiculous. I need to do more investigation into those statistics (I have 2 years to do so), but that is definitely off.

BTW, I looked up catastrophic coverage plans (basically just a high deductible). You're still talking $2,000/year.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2014, 01:07:39 PM »
A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Is that statistic 0.5% or 1% every year, or through the entire lifespan of 20-29? If the later it's definitely high. And remember, if I do get cancer, I can just enroll in insurance! Cancer doesn't kill you instantly - if it did, there would be almost no hope of treatment.

Accidents, as I already stated, are less likely for me due to my risk profile. I've never broken a bone in my life. I've never been to the emergency room. I'm an extremely low risk to hospitalize from accidents relative to my age group.

That's each year.  And someone else addressed the problem of waiting until you get sick to get insurance.

And my point about other hospitalizations was to say that it doesn't matter how likely you think accidents are.  Let's say you're right and there's 0% chance of you getting into an accident, ever.  That still leaves the other 97% of hospitalizations not caused by accidents.

So you're telling me I have a 10% chance to develop cancer simply by living to age 29? That's ridiculous. I need to do more investigation into those statistics (I have 2 years to do so), but that is definitely off.

BTW, I looked up catastrophic coverage plans (basically just a high deductible). You're still talking $2,000/year.

I eyeballed the 1% and it was high.  The NCI chart I sent you showed 85,407 cases of cancer in male age 20-29 in calendar year 2009.  There are roughly 20 million males in the US in that age, for an annual incidence rate of 85400/20000000 = 0.00427 or 0.427%.  So the probably that you won't develop cancer for the decade of your 20s is (1-.00427)^10 = .958.  So there's a 4.2% chance of you getting cancer in your 20s.  That risk roughly doubles in your 30s, and doubles again for each decade.  Really, look at Table 1.23 in the NCI link I posted.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2014, 01:08:52 PM »
Also, there's about a 5% chance for males in your age group to be hospitalized for any reason in any given year: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2014, 01:18:55 PM »
More fun statistics:

The average hospitalization costs $9,700 (for age 18-44, average cost is 7200 - http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb168-Hospital-Costs-United-States-2011.jsp).  There's some data to suggest that the median cost is lower, but the data are more than a decade old: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020394

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2014, 01:21:59 PM »
A 0.5-1.0% risk of developing cancer (males age 20-29 in the US) doesn't seem so remote considering the cost of treatment.  (http://seer.cancer.gov/csr/1975_2011/browse_csr.php?sectionSEL=1&pageSEL=sect_01_table.23.html)

And there are about one-tenth as many hospitalizations every year as there are males age 15-49.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr029.pdf

Is that statistic 0.5% or 1% every year, or through the entire lifespan of 20-29? If the later it's definitely high. And remember, if I do get cancer, I can just enroll in insurance! Cancer doesn't kill you instantly - if it did, there would be almost no hope of treatment.

Accidents, as I already stated, are less likely for me due to my risk profile. I've never broken a bone in my life. I've never been to the emergency room. I'm an extremely low risk to hospitalize from accidents relative to my age group.

That's each year.  And someone else addressed the problem of waiting until you get sick to get insurance.

And my point about other hospitalizations was to say that it doesn't matter how likely you think accidents are.  Let's say you're right and there's 0% chance of you getting into an accident, ever.  That still leaves the other 97% of hospitalizations not caused by accidents.

So you're telling me I have a 10% chance to develop cancer simply by living to age 29? That's ridiculous. I need to do more investigation into those statistics (I have 2 years to do so), but that is definitely off.

BTW, I looked up catastrophic coverage plans (basically just a high deductible). You're still talking $2,000/year.

I eyeballed the 1% and it was high.  The NCI chart I sent you showed 85,407 cases of cancer in male age 20-29 in calendar year 2009.  There are roughly 20 million males in the US in that age, for an annual incidence rate of 85400/20000000 = 0.00427 or 0.427%.  So the probably that you won't develop cancer for the decade of your 20s is (1-.00427)^10 = .958.  So there's a 4.2% chance of you getting cancer in your 20s.  That risk roughly doubles in your 30s, and doubles again for each decade.  Really, look at Table 1.23 in the NCI link I posted.

Thanks. I re-ran the math and came out to 4% risk adjusting for a 21.6M population.

I then looked at cancer treatment costs. The max cost is about $100K, and remember I could enroll in insurance before paying for most of that. When you factor in the cost of insurance and adjust for the risk, going without insurance is definitely the better deal.

geekette

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2014, 01:28:54 PM »
"Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

- various attributions

"Penny wise, pound foolish"

- old British saying

"When you're walking home tonight and some homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me."

- Sgt. Major, Monty Python's Guide to Life

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2014, 01:33:37 PM »
More fun statistics:

The average hospitalization costs $9,700 (for age 18-44, average cost is 7200 - http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb168-Hospital-Costs-United-States-2011.jsp).  There's some data to suggest that the median cost is lower, but the data are more than a decade old: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020394

And if I have one such hospital visit every 5 years, it's still cheaper for me to go without insurance and foot the bill.

"Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

- various attributions

"Penny wise, pound foolish"

- old British saying

"When you're walking home tonight and some homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me."

- Sgt. Major, Monty Python's Guide to Life

All I have to say: insurance exists because it makes companies money. I see no reason to buy it if my risk profile is average or lower than average, and it's not legally required. I will end up footing more for the insurance than if I saved the money.

The other reason insurance exists is because people don't save money. Getting the worst form of cancer would wipe out only around a couple years worth of savings. Most people don't save much, so they wouldn't have that option and need to buy the insurance.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2014, 01:34:12 PM »
Thanks. I re-ran the math and came out to 4% risk adjusting for a 21.6M population.

I then looked at cancer treatment costs. The max cost is about $100K, and remember I could enroll in insurance before paying for most of that. When you factor in the cost of insurance and adjust for the risk, going without insurance is definitely the better deal.

Ah, making my math even tighter  nice. 

That link for cancer treatment shows average costs, without giving a distribution, but given that many are significantly less than 100k, using 100k seems reasonable.  The problem, though, is that of course insurance is more expensive when you adjust for the risk that's the point of insurance!  It would, of course, be better if you could still buy a true catastrophic health insurance plan, but that is unfortunately no longer really possible with the ACA. 

As for waiting, I would add that cancers that occur in young people are more likely to be fast-developing and require treatment well before you would be able to enroll, although I suppose you could move to a new state in order to generate a qualifying event that would allow you to enroll immediately.

sobezen

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2014, 01:35:40 PM »
When I was in-between jobs I considered what I would do if I had to enroll in the ACA.  After much consideration I feel the ACA does not suit my needs, nor do I agree with it in principle.  So, I decided I would opt-out.  But then I learned, I could not opt-out as I hoped.  I felt this requirement was yet another government program that I was being forced to help subsidize and sadly, I probably would participate in, just like unemployment and Medi-cal.  So, instead I decided I would simply pay the fine.  A month later I found a higher paying position working in Silicon Valley and so I was spared the ACA headaches.

I am pretty darn responsible and in good health; while I have paused training to run 8ks or marathons, I still challenge myself and stay active.  So, looking back I found the ACA and all the political spin ultimately meant nothing to me, it is all just noise.  I gladly take my chances with no required health coverage and proactively take responsible care of all areas of my life. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 04:21:11 PM by sobezen »

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2014, 01:38:09 PM »
All I have to say: insurance exists because it makes companies money. I see no reason to buy it if my risk profile is average or lower than average, and it's not legally required. I will end up footing more for the insurance than if I saved the money.

The other reason insurance exists is because people don't save money. Getting the worst form of cancer would wipe out only around a couple years worth of savings. Most people don't save much, so they wouldn't have that option and need to buy the insurance.

True, on average.  But you buy insurance to protect against tail-risk scenarios.  You haven't given any data to show that you would be able to afford those cases, rather than the average case.

infogoon

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2014, 01:39:58 PM »
My father-in-law -- who hates the President and all that he stands for -- was able to retire and still have health insurance because he was able to buy a decent policy on the state exchange for far less than he would have spent on COBRA for his employer's awful plan.

Didn't change his mind any on the President, though.

Emilyngh

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2014, 01:44:07 PM »

Anyway, I just found out this additional tidbit: you can actually avoid the Obamacare tax entirely by simply adjusting your withholding to ensure the IRS always pays you something at the end of the year.


I'd love to see any link supporting this, b/c I'm pretty sure you have it backwards.   To avoid paying the penalty, you'd need to adjust your withholding to make sure that the IRS never owes you a refund.   The law is written in such a way that their hands are tied in collecting the penalty other than through deducting it from a refund.   So, one could avoid ever paying by never getting a refund, but understand that it's not that you wouldn't legally owe it (and it would continue collecting in the background), but as the law is currently written there's no other way for them to collect.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/11/13/enforcing-the-health-law-mandate-what-the-irs-can-cant-do/

Technically, the IRS could sue you for it (although you are correct they probably wouldn't), they could report your delinquency to a credit agency, they will take it from any refunds you/a spouse get in the future, and the law could change in the future enabling them to collect money owed (that will keep accumulating).   The fact that their hands are tied in collecting does not mean that you do not legally owe the money (and that things can't change and have it collected in the future).

unix_kung_fu

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 01:44:51 PM »
(I have absolutely no need for healthcare)

Today anyway, so you think. All it takes is one anvil falling from the sky, a dormant serious illness you show no symptoms of today that appears later..

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2014, 01:46:49 PM »
I then looked at cancer treatment costs. The max cost is about $100K, and remember I could enroll in insurance before paying for most of that. When you factor in the cost of insurance and adjust for the risk, going without insurance is definitely the better deal.

Also, it's worth noting that that study excludes any deductibles or co-pays, because it looked at the cost to the insurer of each of those treatments.

dandarc

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2014, 02:04:56 PM »
All I have to say: insurance exists because it makes companies money. I see no reason to buy it if my risk profile is average or lower than average, and it's not legally required. I will end up footing more for the insurance than if I saved the money.

It makes companies money because it provides value to the customers.  As others have mentioned - you buy insurance when the potential loss is very high, but unlikely to happen to you, and the premium is reasonable.   If you can't cover the loss and keep going, that's when you look for insurance.  For health insurance, an ideal policy from an insurance standpoint would essentially insure against something catastrophic happening to you - basically a plan with as high a deductible as you can stomach with no preventive care included would accomplish this.  Unfortunately, so many people have been getting "Health Insurance" (which provides way more, and costs way more than a more pure insurance product would) from their employers for so long that now this type of policy has basically been outlawed. 

I think the question really is - are the current premiums reasonable?  They are definitely higher for a lot of people than they were under the old system - covering all of those pre-existing conditions comes at a cost, but they still might provide value to a policy holder in excess of the cost.  That is a pretty individual decision, but clearly a lot of people still see good value.

Beric01

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2014, 02:12:48 PM »
All I have to say: insurance exists because it makes companies money. I see no reason to buy it if my risk profile is average or lower than average, and it's not legally required. I will end up footing more for the insurance than if I saved the money.

It makes companies money because it provides value to the customers.  As others have mentioned - you buy insurance when the potential loss is very high, but unlikely to happen to you, and the premium is reasonable.   If you can't cover the loss and keep going, that's when you look for insurance.  For health insurance, an ideal policy from an insurance standpoint would essentially insure against something catastrophic happening to you - basically a plan with as high a deductible as you can stomach with no preventive care included would accomplish this.  Unfortunately, so many people have been getting "Health Insurance" (which provides way more, and costs way more than a more pure insurance product would) from their employers for so long that now this type of policy has basically been outlawed. 

I think the question really is - are the current premiums reasonable?  They are definitely higher for a lot of people than they were under the old system - covering all of those pre-existing conditions comes at a cost, but they still might provide value to a policy holder in excess of the cost.  That is a pretty individual decision, but clearly a lot of people still see good value.

Thanks - I think I actually mentioned this point myself. Insurance does provide value, just not to me.

I might actually buy a plan with a 50K deductible if it were priced correctly. Of course, this plan is illegal and I would need to subsidize both women and the elderly, so it wouldn't be worth it.

Richie Poor

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2014, 03:09:07 PM »
The people refusing to get insurance are taking a calculated risk. They seem to understand there is a small chance that tragedy could befall them. The law of averages says they will probably be alright though.

I spent a lot of time in my 20s uninsured and it probably saved me $8k. That isn't to say I recommend it since my risk tolerance is lower now than it was then. I will not argue though with someone trying the same strategy if they feel that the premiums are artificially high for their risk level.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2014, 03:34:13 PM »
The people refusing to get insurance are taking a calculated risk. They seem to understand there is a small chance that tragedy could befall them. The law of averages says they will probably be alright though.

I spent a lot of time in my 20s uninsured and it probably saved me $8k. That isn't to say I recommend it since my risk tolerance is lower now than it was then. I will not argue though with someone trying the same strategy if they feel that the premiums are artificially high for their risk level.

Yes. But I bet almost none of them actually know what the risks are.

Mr Mark

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2014, 03:59:40 PM »
My father-in-law -- who hates the President and all that he stands for -- was able to retire and still have health insurance because he was able to buy a decent policy on the state exchange for far less than he would have spent on COBRA for his employer's awful plan.

Didn't change his mind any on the President, though.

you can always remind him it's actually a Republican plan, invented by the right-wing Heritage Foundation and applied in Massachusetts.  ;-)

A true 'socialist' plan is 'single payer' like Canada or Netherlands. Cheaper and more effective, but apparently politically impossible in the USA. (Actually there are 4 single payer systems in the US: Medicaid, Medicare,  Veterans,  and I think Congress' plan. All deliver much more effective results for the money than private)

ACA is a real boon for the FIRE community.  Healthcare risk was a huge one beforehand for early retirees.

beltim

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Re: Obamacare role call!
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2014, 07:32:44 PM »
My father-in-law -- who hates the President and all that he stands for -- was able to retire and still have health insurance because he was able to buy a decent policy on the state exchange for far less than he would have spent on COBRA for his employer's awful plan.

Didn't change his mind any on the President, though.

you can always remind him it's actually a Republican plan, invented by the right-wing Heritage Foundation and applied in Massachusetts.  ;-)

A true 'socialist' plan is 'single payer' like Canada or Netherlands. Cheaper and more effective, but apparently politically impossible in the USA. (Actually there are 4 single payer systems in the US: Medicaid, Medicare,  Veterans,  and I think Congress' plan. All deliver much more effective results for the money than private)

ACA is a real boon for the FIRE community.  Healthcare risk was a huge one beforehand for early retirees.

Congress, actually, uses the exchanges (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/12/09/whats-congress-doing-about-its-own-health-care/)

The fourth single payer system in the US is Tricare, for the military.