Author Topic: New Car loan 5.99% APR 60 months Pay entire loan off or invest amount in ETF  (Read 1755 times)

InvestorPsychologist

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I am brand new here but want to ask for some advice on car loan pay off versus investing principal amount.

I purchased a 2025 BMW X5 with a total purchase amount of $75,000. I financed the entire amount at 5.99%APR for 60 months which equals 60 payments of $1,462.  I have over the amount financed in a high yield money market currently earning 4.46% compounded daily and added to the account monthly.  I have plenty of money for an emergency fund and zero debt such as CC, student loans, etc.

What I would like some advice on is:  Should I pay the entire loan off now there is no prepayment penalty or should I invest all of it in a low fee ETF such as Vanguard VOO or VTI and take the chance over those 5 years the return will outpace the amount of interest I would pay on the loan?   I have read on other sites 5.99% is in the "it depends" zone and for myself I have more than enough in cash for an emergency fund. 

Thanks so much for your advice!

Sandi_k

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It's not binary. You can do both.

six-car-habit

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  Cut some fluff out of your normal monthly budget, and put that towards extra principal payments on the SUV, with goal to get the loan paid off in 3 years. Leave the rest in the money market account.

   Next time go for the X5M performance model, if you're going to spend that much. 

 I'm sure others will have more optimal ways of investing your MMA account, but I see it as a counter/cushion against the loan, with a 1.5 % rate deficit compared to loan rate, but relatively stable positive return, whereas there is chance for losses in VTI.

InvestorPsychologist

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Thanks for the advice, yes it is not binary and I appreciate the more nuanced approach. 

I have spending habits that cut a lot of money out of a typical budget such as extremely rarely go out to eat, always bring my lunch to work, use electronics their entire useful lifespan, don't buy expensive clothes, etc.

 As for the X5M model those are 100k or more this one was 70k before taxes which was very very difficult decision to spend that much on a new vehicle but the reason I did so was previously I drove a Toyota 2010 model and after the 0% APR loan was paid off I kept making payments into a high yield money market for the following 10 years and ended up with compounding over that decade with $139,450 in the account that I reserved for a new vehicle and once the vehicle was 15 years old I decided to purchase a new one.  So, the actual loan payment is not going to affect my monthly budget at all as those funds are in a specific MM account only to be used for vehicle expenses. 

The online compounding interest calculator I used is: https://www.investor.gov/financial-tools-calculators/calculators/compound-interest-calculator

The "Should I finance or pay cash" calculator I used is: https://www.myfico.com/credit-education/financial-calculators/vehicle-financing-vs-paying-cash

If anyone has any other factors I am not considering such as paying taxes on the interest versus paying down the loan and which will come out ahead, it is very much appreciated. 

Thanks!

Paper Chaser

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You bought a $75k luxo SUV from a German brand, and you're worried about optimizing loan payoff to save a few bucks? That seems deeply unserious. Looks like 5 year old X5s with average driving of ~75k miles are selling for ~$25k. So you'll probably lose $40k or more to depreciation during the loan period, but you're trying to suss out which path will save you a few hundred bucks over that time?

InvestorPsychologist

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Yes that is correct.  I am not typically inclined to purchase a luxury vehicle but the primary reason I decided to do so is this past January, I reached and exceeded my individual FIRE number after years of saving and living below my means and have always wanted a vehicle like that so I decided that the cost was something I would be ok with but being a frugal person, I do want to maximize the savings I can obtain to offset the depreciation which is substantial as it was pointed out. I plan to keep the vehicle for 10 years and that is why I was not as concerned with depreciation.  I've run the numbers and if I want to take a chance and put it in an ultra low cost ETF (e.g., VTI/VXUS) if it returns 8-10% then I made money, if it takes a dump over that time period I lose money.  I was interested in if I was looking at all the variables and others' perspectives. 

GilesMM

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The MMM answer is to pay it off, sell it before it depreciates further, and buy a 3-5 year old high mile RAV4 or RX350.

sonofsven

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Thanks for the advice, yes it is not binary and I appreciate the more nuanced approach. 

I have spending habits that cut a lot of money out of a typical budget such as extremely rarely go out to eat, always bring my lunch to work, use electronics their entire useful lifespan, don't buy expensive clothes, etc.

 As for the X5M model those are 100k or more this one was 70k before taxes which was very very difficult decision to spend that much on a new vehicle but the reason I did so was previously I drove a Toyota 2010 model and after the 0% APR loan was paid off I kept making payments into a high yield money market for the following 10 years and ended up with compounding over that decade with $139,450 in the account that I reserved for a new vehicle and once the vehicle was 15 years old I decided to purchase a new one.  So, the actual loan payment is not going to affect my monthly budget at all as those funds are in a specific MM account only to be used for vehicle expenses. 

The online compounding interest calculator I used is: https://www.investor.gov/financial-tools-calculators/calculators/compound-interest-calculator

The "Should I finance or pay cash" calculator I used is: https://www.myfico.com/credit-education/financial-calculators/vehicle-financing-vs-paying-cash

If anyone has any other factors I am not considering such as paying taxes on the interest versus paying down the loan and which will come out ahead, it is very much appreciated. 

Thanks!

Since you plan on long term ownership you probably don't need to worry about the depreciation. You'll be paying a fairly high cost for the use of the BMW, but if you're ok with it, so be it.
You'll be paying roughly $12k in interest over the life of the loan, so your investments will have to reach $12k to break even, which is a fairly low bar for $140k.
I think the issue you might have since you are used to frugality is that it might bother you to watch that interest pile up (around $2,500/yr) and that high monthly payment and you'll want to just pay it off and be done with it.
I'm having a hard time not paying off my 60 month, 2% truck loan on $15k.

Laura33

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Pay it off. 

Assuming the market rises:

If you needed the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market, you couldn't afford a $75K car.

You don't.  Which means the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market is irrelevant to your financial future. 

Assuming the market crashes, which would you rather have:

1.  Another $75K in stocks that are now worth say $40K, a vehicle that you owe say $40K on and can sell for only $30K, and a big-ass car payment; or

2.  $40K less in stocks, no debt, and a hard asset that you can sell for $30K if you need it?

IMO, once you have reached your FIRE number, the possibility of earning even more money that you don't actually need is less important than protecting against risks that could undermine your whole financial plan.  No, the possible gain/loss on $75K isn't going to make or break you.  But success or failure is always made up of a thousand decisions, most of which don't really feel significant in the moment.  This is one of them.

InvestorPsychologist

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Very well said and great advice.  This is what I was looking for in another perspective that I was not readily seeing which is to the last post once you have reached the individual FIRE number,  what is a few thousand dollars compared to a potential risk of a correction or crash and losing significantly more. 

To the other post, that is spot on that I am very used to living a very frugal lifestyle down to re-using tin foil and always brown bagging my lunch and rarely eating out, cooking in bulk (meal prepping) etc.  They are habits I developed in graduate school when I had to live off of 14,500 per year and have it cover apt, vehicle, food, etc as I did not want to take out any unsubsidized Stafford loans.  I drove a 2010 Rav4 for 15 years and I completely knew buying a 2025 X5 was not a wise financial decision from that standpoint but from a want standpoint rather than need I felt the joy/happiness it brought me and still does allowed me to justify it in that if I could not afford it I would absolutely never of bought it and continued my frugal lifestyle.

I think when comparing whether to pay off a loan or invest it I was seeing it through a different lens that was more narrow than the big picture and this was actually quite  helpful.  I do appreciate how it does seem ridiculous for someone who lives in a frugal state to buy a luxury SUV that massively depreciates over the next three years, it was something I wanted to do to reward myself for being frugal for the past decade and in other areas of my life I continue to practice frugality which I feel offsets the cost.  I don't want to be someone who lives in a manner where I forgo things I want that are somewhat reasonable until I am in my 60s and can't enjoy them to the degree I could potentially now.

I love my work and spent years after my bachelors degree obtaining a doctoral degree which I missed out on years of a normal salary because of it and  have no plans to retire any time soon, my current salary far outpaces my expenses every year even with this added expense.  At 46 years old, I likely will switch to part time work at 50 and continue to earn in the 100K range per year before taxes. 

One last caveat, because this vehicle exceeds the GW of 6,000 lbs it is eligible for the IRS bonus 179 deduction for depreciation which offsets the cost of it significantly as long as those IRS tax codes don't change. Reference: https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/list-of-vehicles-over-6000-lbs

That was one last reason why in the total cost of the product vs. loss of investment income I factored into the total equation as it is significant for small business owners who use the vehicle in that capacity which I will be. 

GilesMM

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What model X5 is over 6000 pounds? Even the battery-laden xdrive50e is only 5573 pounds. And the deduction is for business use not personal...

Paper Chaser

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What model X5 is over 6000 pounds? Even the battery-laden xdrive50e is only 5573 pounds. And the deduction is for business use not personal...

The tax deduction is based on GVWR instead of curb weights. It's meant to apply to commercial trucks and things, but rich people like to exploit loopholes and buy fancy SUVs that apply as well.

sonofsven

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What model X5 is over 6000 pounds? Even the battery-laden xdrive50e is only 5573 pounds. And the deduction is for business use not personal...

The tax deduction is based on GVWR instead of curb weights. It's meant to apply to commercial trucks and things, but rich people like to exploit loopholes and buy fancy SUVs that apply as well.
Yes, my latest Nissan Frontier work truck qualified for the full section 179 deduction with  GVWR of 6006 lbs. Thanks, Nissan

Sanitary Stache

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You were incentivized to buy a 6,000 lbs vehicle which is more likely to kill someone on the road, will cause more road deterioration than a smaller vehicle, costs more resources to build, and creates more pollution.  The cost of 75k seems high, but likely isn't high enough to pay for the negative consequences of the heavier vehicle.  And then the government thought you should get a tax break for making this decision.  Awesome. /s
The MMM answer is to pay it off, sell it before it depreciates further, and buy a 3-5 year old high mile RAV4 or RX350.

That was MMM from 2013, 2025 MMM says buy the heavy luxury vehicle.

InvestorPsychologist

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This vehicle is a PHEV which for most commuters is essentially a full EV as I have not used a drop of gas in over a month due to plugging it in when parked which is also free (i.e., free electricity) where I live and also where I work there are free charging stations.  Where that electricity comes from (e.g., solar or burning fossil fuels) I am not able to say, hopefully from a clean energy source. But to the point of causing more pollution that is not the case with this particular vehicle as the vast majority of driving is done on electric mode only and the ICE engine is not engaged, that is only for longer trips.  The other reason for a heavier vehicle is physics, if I drove a very small Honda Fit and were in an accident, the chances of survival are lower no matter how many airbags the vehicle has than a larger vehicle. I was in a significant car accident in the past when I drove a Hyundai Elantra and narrowly missed being disabled from it and as a result prefer to purchase a vehicle that is larger. Personal choice but I feel the PHEV and lack of use of gasoline balances out the heavier vehicle weight.

I saw it was posted the vehicle weighs 5,573 lbs on Edmunds which is incorrect. 

BMW   X5 xDrive45e   7,165
Source: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/section-179-tax-break-suvs-trucks-that-qualify/#cars
Source: https://www.crestcapital.com/section-179-deduction-vehicle-list-over-6000-lbs#list-6000


That was MMM from 2013, 2025 MMM says buy the heavy luxury vehicle.
[/quote]

Is there a link to where MMM says that?

SweatingInAR

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You were incentivized to buy a 6,000 lbs vehicle which is more likely to kill someone on the road, will cause more road deterioration than a smaller vehicle, costs more resources to build, and creates more pollution.  The cost of 75k seems high, but likely isn't high enough to pay for the negative consequences of the heavier vehicle.  And then the government thought you should get a tax break for making this decision.  Awesome. /s
The MMM answer is to pay it off, sell it before it depreciates further, and buy a 3-5 year old high mile RAV4 or RX350.

That was MMM from 2013, 2025 MMM says buy the heavy luxury vehicle.

Is there a link to where MMM says that?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/19/top-10-cars-for-smart-people/

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/

You can also browse the history of blog posts that have been tagged with "cars"
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/tag/cars/

Sanitary Stache

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Undoubtedly, the partial electric is less pollution than an ICE vehicle, but the heavier vehicle is more pollution than a lighter vehicle. And I would be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if a a new partial electric SUV resulted less pollution than a used lighter ICE vehicle. Though, I think in this realm it is hard to measure the different types of pollution that are created.

The safety concern with larger cars is a complicated one. The person in the heavier car is safer than the people in the lighter car.  This means that wealthier drivers are safer than poor drivers. This Motor Trends website is paraphrasing The Economist, but I think they get at the thrust of the problem.
Quote
“Weight is to blame,” The Economist insists.
Using data for 7.5 million two-vehicle crashes in 14 American states in 2013–2023, The Economist found that for every 10,000 crashes the heaviest vehicles killed 37 people in the other car, compared with 5.7 for cars of a median weight and just 2.6 for the lightest. The publication estimates that if the heaviest 10 percent of vehicles on America’s roads were roughly 1,000 pounds lighter, fatalities in multicar crashes would fall by 12 percent, saving 2,300 lives a year, without compromising the safety of the occupants of the heavier vehicles.
“For every life the heaviest one percent of SUVs or trucks saves in America,” The Economist wrote, “more than a dozen lives are lost in smaller vehicles. This makes traffic jams an ethics class on wheels.”
https://www.motortrend.com/features/why-americas-roads-keep-getting-deadlier-safety-research/

The economist articles are behind a paywall, I read the print edition at the library. https://www.economist.com/interactive/united-states/2024/08/31/americans-love-affair-with-big-cars-is-killing-them

MMM post - https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/  But I see @SweatingInAR posted that ahead of me.

Dicey

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What do you mean by individual FIRE number? Are you a Swami? (Satisfied Working Mustachian Individual?)

If you have hit your actual FIRE number, you've won the game.

Buying this car and paying it off (or not) isn't going to make a hill of beans of difference.

The point of reaching FIRE is so that you can do what you want with your resources.

When DH and I decided to buy an RV, we knew it wasn't a need, but we've enjoyed the heck out of it and have zero regrets. In fact, we're taking it to another Mustachian Meetup next week...

InvestorPsychologist

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I am assuming the vast majority of people on this forum are familiar with FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early).

Here is a source:
https://smartasset.com/retirement/fire-number

The individual FIRE number represents saving at least 25 times your annual income at which point you can in some/most circumstances with a 4% annual withdrawal rate not spend down the principal.   

For my individual situation: When I was 18 and graduated high school, I was given a graduation gift of $500 instead of a summer trip with the caveat that I am allowed to spend $100 on anything I want and the other $400 must go into a low cost fund (Vanguard) and then that I would commit to putting 15% of whatever I made each month. I worked jobs such as a server at Chilis, bartender at a nightclub, and other types of jobs as a college student and I did keep the promise and put at least 15% in, generally more due to not having living expenses as a RA (resident assistant) and driving an older car with no loan.  I am 46 now and as I progressed through college, worked two years FT, then into graduate school, my income varied a lot from very little (e.g., $14,500 annually) to alot (Over 100k annually) but I kept the same percentage by living below my means and practicing frugality such as meal prepping, buying non name brand clothing, etc, the things most people in this forum likely do.  After this past January, I hit the individual FIRE number for myself which is where I would plan to spend $75,000 per year as a "retiree" and the sum that is saved would support that barring a stock market crash of over 30%. 

That was the primary reason I purchased an expensive vehicle, as I know the costs associated with it but wanted a new vehicle and am not going to retire any time soon, I went to school for years it would be wasteful to just quit working in a field where there is a significant shortage of healthcare providers.  So, I suppose I am a Swami (Satisfied Working Mustachian Individual).  I am very new to this forum but that must align with myself but I know a lot of people who are not satisfied with their work and want to find more meaningful work or ways to contribute to society.

There are many online calculators to determine an individual's FIRE number, here is one:
https://engaging-data.com/fire-calculator/



For the particular vehicle I purchased (2025 X5 50e) it gets over 58 mpge on electric/hybrid and if I do most of my daily driving in electric only mode then there are zero emissions.  The caveat is where did the electricity to power the vehicle come from?  I certainly hope not by burning coal as that defeats the purpose.  In Florida, a substantial amount of electricity is produced by natural gas and solar.
Source: https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=FL


Undoubtedly, the partial electric is less pollution than an ICE vehicle, but the heavier vehicle is more pollution than a lighter vehicle. And I would be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if a a new partial electric SUV resulted less pollution than a used lighter ICE vehicle. Though, I think in this realm it is hard to measure the different types of pollution that are created.

The safety concern with larger cars is a complicated one. The person in the heavier car is safer than the people in the lighter car.  This means that wealthier drivers are safer than poor drivers. This Motor Trends website is paraphrasing The Economist, but I think they get at the thrust of the problem.
Quote
“Weight is to blame,” The Economist insists.
Using data for 7.5 million two-vehicle crashes in 14 American states in 2013–2023, The Economist found that for every 10,000 crashes the heaviest vehicles killed 37 people in the other car, compared with 5.7 for cars of a median weight and just 2.6 for the lightest. The publication estimates that if the heaviest 10 percent of vehicles on America’s roads were roughly 1,000 pounds lighter, fatalities in multicar crashes would fall by 12 percent, saving 2,300 lives a year, without compromising the safety of the occupants of the heavier vehicles.
“For every life the heaviest one percent of SUVs or trucks saves in America,” The Economist wrote, “more than a dozen lives are lost in smaller vehicles. This makes traffic jams an ethics class on wheels.”
https://www.motortrend.com/features/why-americas-roads-keep-getting-deadlier-safety-research/

The economist articles are behind a paywall, I read the print edition at the library. https://www.economist.com/interactive/united-states/2024/08/31/americans-love-affair-with-big-cars-is-killing-them

MMM post - https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2023/04/27/why-buy-model-y/  But I see @SweatingInAR posted that ahead of me.

Thank you for sharing the MMM article on when the Tesla was purchased and the rationale. I appreciated reading that. 


GilesMM

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I think I do recall someone using that FIRE word on here before. 

InvestorPsychologist

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I would be absolutely stunned if it hadn't been but was not assuming and provided the information just in case but I can sense the sarcasm and I agree that is overkill to provide all that information but might as well just in case.

Dicey

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I would be absolutely stunned if it hadn't been but was not assuming and provided the information just in case but I can sense the sarcasm and I agree that is overkill to provide all that information but might as well just in case.
I only mentioned FIRE three times in my reply.

rothwem

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The GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating, which is the maximum amount that the vehicle CAN weigh safely, including passengers and cargo.  So GVWR=Curb weight + passenger weight + payload weight.  If the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is >6000 pounds, you get some tax benefits (accelerated depreciation), but I'm fairly certain they don't apply to W2 individuals.

OP, how much of your pay is W2 and how much is 1099/self employment income?

Anyways, I think this is the winning answer here:

Pay it off. 

Assuming the market rises:

If you needed the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market, you couldn't afford a $75K car.

You don't.  Which means the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market is irrelevant to your financial future. 

Assuming the market crashes, which would you rather have:

1.  Another $75K in stocks that are now worth say $40K, a vehicle that you owe say $40K on and can sell for only $30K, and a big-ass car payment; or

2.  $40K less in stocks, no debt, and a hard asset that you can sell for $30K if you need it?

IMO, once you have reached your FIRE number, the possibility of earning even more money that you don't actually need is less important than protecting against risks that could undermine your whole financial plan.  No, the possible gain/loss on $75K isn't going to make or break you.  But success or failure is always made up of a thousand decisions, most of which don't really feel significant in the moment.  This is one of them.

Your downside risk is higher than your potential upside since you're FI already. 

I do somewhat question the wisdom of going bananas and buying a brand new Luxury SUV, it reminds me of the people that go out and get an ice cream cone as a reward for losing 5 pounds, the reward is undoing the hard work required to get the reward.  But whatever, if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad. 

FWIW, my sister in law has an X5 and its a great vehicle, but she just put tires on it (they lasted only 20k miles) and it was $3000.  Her telling me that killed my X5 boner real quick.

sonofsven

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I would be absolutely stunned if it hadn't been but was not assuming and provided the information just in case but I can sense the sarcasm and I agree that is overkill to provide all that information but might as well just in case.
I only mentioned FIRE three times in my reply.
Next time try four
/s

InvestorPsychologist

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Yes, paying it off is clearly the best move.  I figured that but wanted to see if I was missing something.   Yes, it is a great vehicle but they do put Pirelli P Zeros on them stock which are low mileage run flat tires which are great but they do not last very long. She got more mileage than I would think on them.  I am going to switch them out for 50k all seasons once the time comes and it should be no more than $1700 which is still a lot.   One of the reasons I purchased the vehicle was Consumer Reports rated the 2025 PHEV model very highly in terms of reliability and I plan to keep it for 10 years likely so I was not as concerned with depreciation as the biggest hit is the first three years.  I more wanted a somewhat upscale vehicle that gets good mileage and is reliable and this was it.  Also, driving a 2010 Rav4 for 15 years made me consider spending more than I typically would.   

Also, I agree with the advice on once someone is FI what benefit is there to a few thousand upside in equities if there was a correction right at the 5 year mark and lost a significant value amount compared to a guaranteed 5.99% return by paying it off immediately. 

Time will tell if purchasing an expensive vehicle was a wise decision or not.  Clearly not from a financial standpoint but from a user enjoyment standpoint so far so good, I just ceramic coated it and its 3 years free maintenance.  Also, if the tariffs on imported cars do happen in April, existing vehicles will suddenly be worth more per what I was reading not that it matters to me as I would not sell it and then trade down to a less expensive vehicle.

Thanks again for the replies, it was helpful!

The GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating, which is the maximum amount that the vehicle CAN weigh safely, including passengers and cargo.  So GVWR=Curb weight + passenger weight + payload weight.  If the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is >6000 pounds, you get some tax benefits (accelerated depreciation), but I'm fairly certain they don't apply to W2 individuals.

OP, how much of your pay is W2 and how much is 1099/self employment income?

Anyways, I think this is the winning answer here:

Pay it off. 

Assuming the market rises:

If you needed the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market, you couldn't afford a $75K car.

You don't.  Which means the extra couple thousand bucks you might earn in the stock market is irrelevant to your financial future. 

Assuming the market crashes, which would you rather have:

1.  Another $75K in stocks that are now worth say $40K, a vehicle that you owe say $40K on and can sell for only $30K, and a big-ass car payment; or

2.  $40K less in stocks, no debt, and a hard asset that you can sell for $30K if you need it?

IMO, once you have reached your FIRE number, the possibility of earning even more money that you don't actually need is less important than protecting against risks that could undermine your whole financial plan.  No, the possible gain/loss on $75K isn't going to make or break you.  But success or failure is always made up of a thousand decisions, most of which don't really feel significant in the moment.  This is one of them.

Your downside risk is higher than your potential upside since you're FI already. 

I do somewhat question the wisdom of going bananas and buying a brand new Luxury SUV, it reminds me of the people that go out and get an ice cream cone as a reward for losing 5 pounds, the reward is undoing the hard work required to get the reward.  But whatever, if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad. 

FWIW, my sister in law has an X5 and its a great vehicle, but she just put tires on it (they lasted only 20k miles) and it was $3000.  Her telling me that killed my X5 boner real quick.

InvestorPsychologist

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After thinking about this post as the OP and comments, I wanted to say I appreciated the perspective, especially the comparison of going on a diet, losing a lot of weight and then going out and buying a large ice cream cone to "reward" oneself.  That does make sense. 

I wanted to offer a slightly different perspective as it solely relates to money.  So, going on a diet, losing weight is a great thing as most of the US is overweight or worse obese and we know how many health problems come with that status (e.g., T2 diabetes, hypertension, stroke, heart disease, early death). For finances, I would like to offer viewing it somewhat different in that we cannot outlive our money.  Yes, ideally we would pass it on to our children to better their lives but not everyone does that.  Lets use Warren Buffet as an example.  He once turned down one of his children who asked him for a personal loan of 40k to remodel their kitchen by stating why don't they take out a loan if they feel they need a new kitchen, clearly stating his hard earned money was not theirs for the taking even when he was alive. 

We are not going to take the money we have worked so hard to save with us when the inevitable occurs and my perspective is once you are FI if your budget can afford it, why would you not buy things that you want within reason?  If in my case my FI was near 10 million at 45 years old by the time I am 55 I likely will have 13, 15 million (or less we don't know) but point is that is a lot of money that a MMM frugal person can't possibly spend unless they just invest it all to earn more money they will never likely spend. I have equities, real estate (passive only) and cash on the sidelines for emergencies and am buying my house with cash.

I have a hard time finding a strong reason why spending 75K on a car paying cash and no interest thanks to the comments and advice here that was so helpful provided seems like a reckless decision if I can easily cover that expense in less than 6 months interest/dividends.  I worked very, very , very hard to get to this point that is why what the one person noted was it seems like going on a diet and then once you reach your goal going out and going bananas and getting a huge ice cream cone seems to defeat the purpose resonated with me especially. 

I wanted to ask, is that absolute or commensurate with where you happen to be in the FI journey?  I am new to MMM and like the virtues espoused here.

 Its been a month and I have a transfer in place to pay off the entire loan before any interest has accrued in 2 days. Based on the advice I received that is the best option clearly. I do feel once one has achieved FI it is OK to reward oneself for spending their 20s and 30s sacrificing compared to their peers in order to have a better 40s, 50s, and beyond.  That is just my opinion.  I know that I can't take it with me and I don't see giving family everything I worked so hard for being helpful to me or them for that matter as that makes people lazy to know they have money without doing anything for it. 

I appreciate the perspectives given but wanted to offer my own somewhat different perspective once you reach a certain point in the FI journey which I hope everyone will, it is do-able but does take serious discipline and starting when you're basically 18 so you have time and compounding on your side. 


I would be absolutely stunned if it hadn't been but was not assuming and provided the information just in case but I can sense the sarcasm and I agree that is overkill to provide all that information but might as well just in case.
I only mentioned FIRE three times in my reply.

Paper Chaser

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There's more to this place than just money. MMM's original blog posts were heavily skewed toward anti-consumption. He recognized that consuming in the way that many first world people do is not great for society, and is unsustainable for the planet. Reducing consumption just happens to have financial benefits too. So the MMM blog is kind of an environmental blog buried within a financial blog.

The whole concept is to eliminate thoughtless spending and consumption, so that you can invest your time, energy, and money into things that will truly make you happy. What many people find is that lusting after expensive goods only leads to a treadmill of excess. And that means more time spent working to afford things that don't bring much lasting happiness, and less time spent with family, friends, hobbies, and other truly meaningful endeavors.

Buying an expensive, luxury SUV that's going to have high running costs goes against a lot of those concepts. Sure, you can pay it off by working 6 more months, but that's 6 months you could be spending with family instead of driving your luxo yacht to work each day. Sure, you might qualify for a tax break if it's used for work, but that's abusing a loophole and treating yourself (a wealthy individual) at the expense of regular tax payers. Sure, you get free charging where you park, but again that's a rich person taking advantage of somebody else so they can enjoy luxury they could easily afford to pay for. Sure, it's a PHEV, so you might be able to feel a little bit better about your consumption, but it's still a hugely resource intensive vehicle that has a very large environmental impact with it's construction, and continuing outsized impact with it's operation/maintenance (larger tires, brakes, pretty mediocre efficiency, etc).

What's really important to you? It seems your view of your life is that you've sacrificed in the past, and now want to reap what you've sown. Your chosen reward is a luxury-laden status symbol, rather than time doing what you love with people you love. It's a mobile isolation chamber rather than a community builder. It's destructive rather than constructive.

If all you want is financial advice, and support for your consumption then bogleheads may be a better fit for you. That's not to say you're unwelcome here, but you should expect some pushback with posts like this.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2025, 04:52:17 AM by Paper Chaser »

Geppetto

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I’d pay that sucker off ASAP. I’d require a 0% interest rate to consider having a car loan in my life. Damn the numbers, I don’t want to look at my balance sheet and see anything I hate.

Laura33

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I have a hard time finding a strong reason why spending 75K on a car paying cash and no interest thanks to the comments and advice here that was so helpful provided seems like a reckless decision if I can easily cover that expense in less than 6 months interest/dividends.  I worked very, very , very hard to get to this point that is why what the one person noted was it seems like going on a diet and then once you reach your goal going out and going bananas and getting a huge ice cream cone seems to defeat the purpose resonated with me especially. 

I wanted to ask, is that absolute or commensurate with where you happen to be in the FI journey?  I am new to MMM and like the virtues espoused here.

Some of it is practical, some of it is psychological.

The practical is this:  if you intentionally live a constrained lifestyle in order to get to FI, and then let everything loose once you get there, you will quickly find yourself no longer FI.  If, say, your budget is $40K, and you have $1M saved, you're FI.  But if you then add various luxuries because now you feel like you can afford them, then pretty soon your budget might be $50K/yr, and now you need another $250K invested to get back to being FIRE.  It is always easy to justify one particular thing, and tell yourself that it is ok, because it is a one-off; after all, it is not like you're going to buy an expensive new car every year.  The problem arises when you end up with a series of one-offs; this year it's a car, next year it's a vacation, the year after that you need to remodel your home, etc. etc. etc.  So the point is to think very carefully about what you want that one "thing" to be, and always be careful to make sure you're not bullshitting yourself and just rationalizing a more expensive lifestyle overall.

The psychological actually has a bunch of different aspects.  The obvious one is the hedonic treadmill, which fits into what I just said above.  We tend to get used to whatever level of luxury we are currently living with.  So if you buy an expensive car, you get used to the amenities of an expensive car, and over time your view of the kind of car you want/"need"/"deserve" changes to now require that more expensive car.  Any time you increase your lifestyle, there is a very high likelihood that you will want to continue that, and in fact increase it further, because after a while, even that new level of luxury no longer provides the same kick that it used to.  That is the fastest way to destroy your FIRE plans.*

The second, also-related one is that we as humans are absolute crap at predicting what will make us happy.  We tend to buy and do things for the wrong reasons; we are social creatures, and so it is fairly natural to want to buy things that elevate our perceived status in our social structure.  The problem is that when you buy something because you want to impress your friends, or because it makes you feel "rich," or for any of a variety of other reasons, that initial boost wears off, and then you need to buy more/better things to get that happiness hit again, and then boom, you're smack in the middle of the hedonic treadmill.  Most of us here put a lot of time, energy, and thought into deciding whether to buy something and if so, what, to try to make sure the long-term happiness will be worth the extra expenditure.  Pretty much what it sounds like you're doing now.  We all have something that actually makes us happy;** the key is finding it and focusing on that, instead of all of the societal noise.

The third one is stoicism.  This is the one I personally struggled with for so long; I grew up doing without, so the idea of intentionally doing without was not even remotely appealing.  But the underlying key is that you build strength and power from understanding that you don't need all of the fancy trappings to be happy.  We grow only when we push ourselves, when we do things that are uncomfortable; it's like going to the gym, if you slow down every time you start breathing hard, or stop whenever the weight feels uncomfortable, you're never going to improve.  Telling yourself no when you want something is basically exercising your frugality muscles; you are reminding yourself that all this stuff is just Stuff -- it's a temporary want, not a need.  And there is an incredible degree of power in really understanding that you truly need very little to be happy, because that frees up all of the fear and opens up a variety of choices.  Hate your job?  Well, if you really need your lifestyle to be happy, then you're stuck, because you either need to suck it up or to find another job that pays the same.  OTOH, if you understand that you don't actually need all of that current lifestyle, that gives you many, many more options; sure, you can get another job like the one you have, but you can also reduce your lifestyle, take a less-demanding job, and free up time for hobbies; or you can throw everything away and live in a van for a while to explore some passion that you've always wanted to try; or go back to school to change course; or any of 8,000 different things.  And that mindset also reminds you that even if things go badly -- you can't find a job, you have to sell your house or whatever -- you have the strength and power within yourself to find a way through and make your future something better than it is now. 

And the converse of that is that the stoic mindset helps you recognize the true luxury you already have everywhere in life just because of where and when we live.  The thing I like most about MMM is the way he looks at literally everything in his life as an abundance of luxury -- even things like being able to get clean, heated water just by turning a knob, or being able to transport ourselves anywhere we want to go in what is basically a motorized recliner.  If you can see your current life as surrounded by abundance and luxury, that helps combat that constant need for more more more -- it puts it in perspective as a possible minor improvement to what is already really fucking great, as compared to something that you actually need to be happy.   


*One thing I do to try to combat this is to assume that any lifestyle increase is going to be permanent and then figure out how much longer I need to work in order to do that forever.  So for example, I figured out that having a housecleaner come every couple of weeks for the rest of my life would require me to work about 3-4 months longer in order to afford that luxury.  I like my job, and I detest cleaning with the blazing heat of 10,000 suns, so that was a very easy decision for me.  But if you don't like your job, or if buying a particular thing costs you 2-3 years of your life energy, then it's probably not worth it.

**For example, most folks here know that I'm a car guy (and they put up with me anyway).  Like you, I bought an expensive car that I very much wanted after we were FI, had college savings covered, etc.  The car is definitely a show-off car, but for me, that was a bug, not a feature; I dithered for a couple of years because I did NOT want to draw that kind of attention.  But, OMG, popping the top down on a sunny day, downshifting into a curve -- it's visceral joy, literally makes me smile every time I drive it, and it is a feeling of power and control that I get nowhere else.  Best StupidMoney I ever spent.

InvestorPsychologist

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First, I like the push back!  That is what I am seeking!  So please keep it going!  Thank you for making me feel welcome on this forum too.  I am getting real honest answers with real opinions backed by life experience or research that make sense!

The last two posts really helped me think about this more carefully.   Yes, I saved for many years and after running the numbers I am FI plus meaning that a 75k purchase even if the markets dropped 30% would not put me out of the FI territory.  That is not at all bragging but more part of the rationale as to the purchase.  I definitely agree with numerous people that a luxury SUV is excessive and utilizes resources that could be spent in other places.  The PHEV mitigates that some but not much. I agree. 

I think after careful consideration, I am engaged in whether I know it or not a personal experiment on some level of wanting validation for years of sacrifice.  I happen to be a real licensed psychologist, I work with children and adolescents primarily with autism but I have a substantial amount of training across broad areas of psychology.   

What I struggle with is living a far below my means in terms of lifestyle and wanting to experience certain things and preventing myself from doing so for the past 15 years for what reason?  I travel anywhere I want, so that is not something I hold back from and this vehicle purchase while definitely excessive I will absolutely agree does for this past month bring me a sense of joy similar to someone who buys a sailboat and takes on the open seas.  Both are money pits but if one saves up for it and budgets for it and it has zero effect on their FI status and doesn't degrade the world in a horrible way, what is the harm?

I do agree the vehicle costs more to make, takes up more resources but so do Teslas they take up huge amounts of lithium and other precious metals, this is not that different really to be honest.  I need a bigger vehicle because of having to carry things in it for trips that is the main reason and picked a PHEV to decrease my carbon footprint. That is only my opinion with recognizing a small Tesla does have a smaller footprint but I have an actual reason as equipment wont fit.

One aspect from a pure FI standpoint that may be different than others but possibly not is for myself is I spent 6 years in graduate school after a 4  year bachelors degree studying psychology and training where I lost those years of income.   Ive made up for it with a higher salary now but more importantly, really love what I do!  I help kids with autism and ADHD live better lives and become more contributing members of society.  What is there not to love? 

I have zero plans on quitting even though I have achieved clear financial independence from 25 years of dollar cost averaging and living approximately 35% below means consistently.  So, from a FI standpoint, I continue to have an annual $240,000 or more stream of income with salary and investment returns pre tax doing what I love and helping people which is why it seems like not a risk to buy a vehicle I want and brings me joy and is essentially an EV for 90% of the time (driving in city environment or short highway trips)  while being a sport utility vehicle for 10% of the time when I drive on longer highway trips etc.  I practice sacrifice in virtually every other aspect of my life such as wearing older inexpensive clothes, brown bagging my lunch and living way below my salary, so if something happens, I have plenty of money to fall back on. 

I would be interested to hear others' perspectives, I actually really do appreciate it and will not be offended, I promise.  One thing we say in the psychology world is the best predictor of a person's future behavior is their past behavior and I would argue so far I have not become at all offended, much the opposite. I would also say my past behavior and current behavior do not align in that I just bought a 75k vehicle that is going to depreciate a lot but after looking at the numbers, there is way more money than needed to stay in the FI territory even with as someone very astutely pointed out raising your lifestyle level being a thing where it stays that way, I can absorb it as I am so frugal in other ways and even if not, plenty of FI money as long as the markets don't go to 0% which is extremely unlikely. 

 A family member who is active on this site did give me some more background information on it and the general belief systems which I try to align with I really do but I do agree the purchase of a SUV that is lux is excessive and it does bring me huge amounts of joy and satisfaction even waxing it on the weekend I love doing just is so satisfying for me as an individual.  Those are my thoughts.


Laura33

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I think after careful consideration, I am engaged in whether I know it or not a personal experiment on some level of wanting validation for years of sacrifice.  I happen to be a real licensed psychologist, I work with children and adolescents primarily with autism but I have a substantial amount of training across broad areas of psychology.   

What I struggle with is living a far below my means in terms of lifestyle and wanting to experience certain things and preventing myself from doing so for the past 15 years for what reason?  I travel anywhere I want, so that is not something I hold back from and this vehicle purchase while definitely excessive I will absolutely agree does for this past month bring me a sense of joy similar to someone who buys a sailboat and takes on the open seas.  Both are money pits but if one saves up for it and budgets for it and it has zero effect on their FI status and doesn't degrade the world in a horrible way, what is the harm? 

One aspect from a pure FI standpoint that may be different than others but possibly not is for myself is I spent 6 years in graduate school after a 4  year bachelors degree studying psychology and training where I lost those years of income.   

. . . .

I practice sacrifice in virtually every other aspect of my life such as wearing older inexpensive clothes, brown bagging my lunch and living way below my salary, so if something happens, I have plenty of money to fall back on. 

. . . .

it does bring me huge amounts of joy and satisfaction even waxing it on the weekend I love doing just is so satisfying for me as an individual.  Those are my thoughts.

My advice:  as part of your experiment, make sure to check back in every 6 months or year to see whether the purchase bought you the validation you seek. 

The primary risk/concern here is if you are trying to solve psychological problems by throwing money at them.  So test yourself on this, see if you enjoy the car as much in 5 years as you think you will, see if you feel more "seen" driving it, see if you still enjoy washing it every weekend.  If so, congrats!  You found the luxury that makes you happy!  If not, then readjust your focus to other areas -- don't just buy something else because now you think that will make you happy.

The thing that gives me pause from this most recent post is that you look at your current lifestyle as a "sacrifice."  You worked hard, did an extra 6 years of school/training, gave up lots of potential money, wear old clothes, brownbag your lunch, etc., and now that you're FI, you deserve to loosen the reins a little.  That is actually a really, really dangerous thought pattern, because that is the one that can often lead to serious lifestyle inflation once you loosen up.  Sometimes we impose sacrifice on ourselves to keep our inner toddler from doing a bunch of stuff that we know is bad for us, and the risk is that when we give that little toddler once thing, he's going to want another, and another, and another.  Some people can have one drink and stop; others can't touch a drop without going on a giant bender.  If you're the latter, then loosening the reins can be a dangerous thing to do.

Fundamentally, FIRE is not about "sacrifice" -- is not about living as frugally as possible, regardless of the pain of doing so, until you are FI.  It is about recognizing that saving is not a "sacrifice"; it is, instead, an investment in your future freedom.  It is recognizing that FutureYou's wellbeing is far more important, and will bring much more long-term satisfaction, than buying yet another ShinyNew consumer good.  It's a tradeoff, not a sacrifice.

The ultimate point of FIRE is to try to live a life that you enjoy now and in the future.  And that's going to be different for everyone.  Like, I run around in old clothes and brown-bag my lunches all the time, too.  For me, it's because I really really don't care about clothes as long as they're comfortable, and I work at home and so can eat leftovers for free.  But for you, if you actually really want new clothes and are just not letting yourself have any because you need to sacrifice for your savings, well, buy some damn clothes.  Most people err because they don't give FutureYou a seat at the table.  But some err because they focus so much on the future that they can't enjoy the present.  You want to be somewhere in the balanced middle, not either extreme.

I'd very much suggest looking at all of your current spending decisions through this lens:  you can spend that money to make FutureYou's life better, or you can spend it on the thing in front of you.  Given where both CurrentYou and FutureYou are right now, what is the better use of that money?  Then, as you go down the road, test those decisions -- check your past expectations against the future reality, see if the choice worked out as you thought, and adjust future decisions accordingly.  No one gets everything right the first time; the important thing is to continue to learn and to know yourself better, so your decisions improve as your understanding does. 

Full disclosure:  you know that saying "if you can't be a good example, at least be a horrible warning"?  That's me.  I'm the kid who grew up poor, sacrificed through school and advanced degree, and started socking a way a ton of money -- both to feel "safe," and because I didn't feel worthy of nice things.  I then married a total SpendyPants.  Over the next decade or so, I went too far the other way; apparently I'm more of the "alcoholic" personality, because when I let myself think that I "deserved" nice things, I bought many many of them.  The good news is that when we got married, we set up guardrails that ensured a 15-20% savings rate regardless, so even losing my mind didn't hurt us too much.  But after maybe 10-15 years of living hedonic adaptation, when I wasn't any happier than before, I had to stop and look and realize that the real problem was how I defined myself:  who the fuck needs to feel "worthy" of an inanimate object??  Like, what the actual fuck?  I had been reading MMM all along and had written it off as not for me, because I never ever wanted to live on $24K ever again -- like, I did all that school and work specifically so I wouldn't ever have to do that.  But when I hit that point of realizing spending all that money wasn't making me happy, that's when all of a sudden those articles about stoicism and the like started to make sense.  That was also around the time I got serious at the gym and discovered I could do stuff like flip giant tractor tires that girls never even thought of back when I was born.  That was a visceral lesson in how short-term discomfort/pain can generate long-term growth and some serious personal satisfaction.  I am now a 100% convert to that thought process, even if I'm still far more spendy than most people here.  Yeah, I still do brownbag and don't spend much money on clothes, because I've learned not to waste money on things that I don't value.  On the flip side, now I can also buy myself a luxury Thing and (a) not feel guilty about it, and (b) have a better chance of it being something that actually does make me happy. 

Sandi_k

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Fantastic post, @Laura33 - it's always worth reading your thoughts. <3