Negotiating salary

[Fru-Gal]

I FIRED Jan 2021. Though I told them no a few times, my former employer wouldn’t hear it and we have come to the point of verbal discussion around salary prior to a written offer.

I’ve just been told that the bottom of my specified range is the highest they will go. This is after I had already refused a verbal salary proposal from HR, saying that it was not quite at the market rate for my very rare skill set. To that, HR had said that was fine because they were still negotiating the number internally and they had approval to give me an offer. Now I have been told by the hiring manager that HR is refusing to go any higher and that my numerical job level is maxed out at this salary and they don’t have this particular position in a higher salary track.

Does all that makes sense? Earlier in interviews I said I would not consider this without it being around 50K more than what they are offering and what I had understood was that the hiring manager and their team was cool with that because they said they 50 K higher than what they are now offering was in fact in the middle of the salary band for the position (their highest track that is non-management). Should I try to negotiate 5k or 10K or 25k higher or should I just say yes and use that as an excuse to not become wrapped up in the job? I should mention that the salary they are verbally offering is still 50K more than what I was making when I left the company.

I’m not asking if I should take the job (that was discussed in another thread), this is a more specific question about negotiations and how to respond either in terms of holding to my number or gracefully accepting (once it is in writing) in such a way that it does not put me at some sort of disadvantage once employed. I have never experienced something like this where I am being aggressively pursued but then the salary is being proposed verbally. My previous experience with this company I received my first salary offer in writing.

[seattlecyclone]

Congrats on being pursued! All signs point to an economic downturn in the near term, so although they're only offering the very bottom of the range you quoted there's a high probability they won't feel like they're in a position to offer any more anytime soon. You're FIRE so you're obviously not obligated to take anyone's best offer right now. If the bottom of the range you quoted isn't actually enough to lure you back into the workforce, then go ahead and turn them down and enjoy your continued leisure opportunities. If the job seems like something you would be willing to do for that price, maybe take it because it might be the best deal you can find anytime soon.

[Telecaster]

I’ve just been told that the bottom of my specified range is the highest they will go. This is after I had already refused a verbal salary proposal from HR, saying that it was not quite at the market rate for my very rare skill set. To that, HR had said that was fine because they were still negotiating the number internally and they had approval to give me an offer. Now I have been told by the hiring manager that HR is refusing to go any higher and that my numerical job level is maxed out at this salary and they don’t have this particular position in a higher salary track.

In a general sense, best practice in any negotiation is to be willing to walk away from any negotiation where the counterparty doesn't meet your best offer.  Some negotiations don't work out. No hard feelings.

That said, personal experience says that everything you are hearing is total bullshit.  To be clear, they indeed may not be willing to pay you what you are asking.  That absolutely could be true.  But everything about job levels and salary tiers is bullshit.  Those are just arbitrary internal policies that get overturned all the time when the need arises.

If they want to, they can change the numerical job level. They can make an exception for the job level.  All of that stuff is just made up numbers.    They can make up different numbers if they want to. "Oh did we say Level 7?  We decided this was a Level 8." Again, happens all. the. time.  If you are willing to walk away, I recommend simply telling them your number and sticking with it.  If they want you, they'll figure out some way that their rules about job levels and salary tiers don't apply to you.   Keep in mind, you are the one with the talent.  Their stupid salary tier rules are their problem, not your problem.  Kept that in your mental frame.  Their problem.  Not your problem.

And as a negotiation tactic, if a $50K increase is in the middle of the band, ask for $75K or whatever is in the high end of the band.  If they counter, ask for the middle of the band, which is what you wanted in the first place.  Middle of the band should be fair for both sides, right? 

Here's your trump card:  The hiring manager doesn't pay your salary.  She doesn't really give a shit how much you make, she just wants to solve a problem, which is solved by hiring you.  HR may protest, but they don't make the company any money.  While HR is powerful, their power has limits if you are willing to challenge them.  Good luck, and report back!

[bryan995]

That’s the problem with giving a “range”. All anyone ever hears is the bottom number. They gave you exactly what you asked for. You are unlikely to have any negotiation power left to increase the offer.

You should also think about working somewhere that is having to make all sorts of exceptions / excuses to pay you market rate for a given role. (Agreed that this is just HR nonsense and mostly made up). If that’s the case you can say goodbye to any further income growth. Would also likely land at the top of any HR generated layoff lists as we enter this looming recession. Though since you are already close to FIRE/REFIRE maybe that’s not a concern :)

[lucenzo11]

Hold firm to your number, they are giving you all the standard negotiating BS. There is always room to go up, they just want to get you to say yes to the lowest number possible. Since you are FIRE you should have no fear about telling them that you won't consider if further if they aren't going to raise the number. You have the power, don't give it them by falling for their tricks.

As for the verbal offers, I think this is even more reason to hold firm. Their verbal offers are them testing the waters with you before they write up the letter. Hold firm, continue to state your interest, but only at the salary you expect. Put if back on them to present an offer that is attractive to you. A really easy way to get to the letter stage is say that you want to see the whole package with benefits, vacation, etc. Obviously you should know all of this since you worked there before but you want them to put all their cards on the table. Then you can start the real negotiations.

[Fru-Gal]

Awesome advice! I did feel like the levels and salaries thing was a line of BS. I also had the same feeling about them making verbal offers as being a way to test the waters. As for layoffs, they would be doing me a favor 😆 since I tend to be very loyal and stay in place and that’s a risk for me taking a job. Although now I have proven that I don’t need it with the last 6+ months of FIRE.

I have to be careful because I’m still tending to think from their perspective rather than mine, “the team needs me, I should help them out.” And I must remember that that is not a reciprocated attitude.

[Fru-Gal]

I am learning a lot about negotiating, found some great YT vids on the topic. Apparently this is where most give up when in fact it is the time to fight.

So.... they came back to me with a higher number, which makes me happy! Now to do a little research and see if I should accept that or push for slightly more. It's not what I asked for but I assume the reason it's not quite a round number is because they assume I will push for another 2-5k. They also added equity, which wasn't in the first offer.

[lutorm]

This is hopefully obvious, but get the offer in writing before actually accepting anything.

I want to second the people who said that you're clearly negotiating from a very strong position here given that they seem to be begging for you to come out of retirement. You say you're not asking for a discussion about whether you should actually take the job or not, but I think it's impossible to separate that because you must keep the option to walk away if you can't come to an agreement on the table. The result of them failing to offer what you want should be you saying "thanks but no thanks" and walking away, not accepting an offer you're not happy with.

And I really want to echo what others are saying: their talk about salary ranges and position classifications or whatever is their problem, but they're trying to make it yours. Either they can offer what you want and you accept, or they can't and you walk.

That said, it's often true that there are things that are more palatable for them to offer than others. Salary is highly visible, and if they're hesitant to give you what you want, you can try to counter by saying "Ok I understand you can't offer more than $X, but since that's lower than what I'm looking for maybe you can give me Y as well. Typical things there might be equity (which it sounds like they already did offer), vacation time, a remote work agreement, or whatever.

Since you've already FIREd, I assume you don't really need the money, so it might be valuable to make the job more palatable in other ways, too.

[JLee]

FWIW I heard through the grapevine that my former employer (that had been stringing me along for years re: raises / titles and was pushing for return to office) asked my manager if they thought I would come back if they offered full remote and matching salary re: my new job.  Keep in mind my new salary was significantly more than what I asked of former employer 3 years ago (and didn't get).

So....everything is flexible.

[JAYSLOL]

You are FIRED.  You’ve got them by the balls.  Stick firm to whatever number YOU are comfortable selling your time for. 

[Telecaster]

That’s the problem with giving a “range”. All anyone ever hears is the bottom number. They gave you exactly what you asked for. You are unlikely to have any negotiation power left to increase the offer.

I agree that they were looking at the bottom number, but disagree with the rest.  It is a negotiation.  You can change your mind right up until you sign the paperwork.  The OP's leverage isn't her initial position, her leverage is that she has a skill set that the prospective employer wants. 

[lutorm]

That’s the problem with giving a “range”. All anyone ever hears is the bottom number. They gave you exactly what you asked for. You are unlikely to have any negotiation power left to increase the offer.

I agree that they were looking at the bottom number, but disagree with the rest.  It is a negotiation.  You can change your mind right up until you sign the paperwork.  The OP's leverage isn't her initial position, her leverage is that she has a skill set that the prospective employer wants.

True, but on the other hand requesting something, having the employer meed that request, and then changing your mind and asking for even more could be interpreted by the counterpart as negotiating in bad faith, which will likely make them question whether they really want to proceed.

This obviously doesn't preclude you from incorporating new information, like if they matched your lower range but you also found out they offer shitty benefits and no vacation, it would be perfectly well motivated to ask for more given what you now know. But saying "I want $100k", getting it, and then saying "actually, I want $120k", is unlikely to go over well, IMHO. Nothing's preventing you from doing it if you really wouldn't be happy with 100k though.

[bryan995]

That’s the problem with giving a “range”. All anyone ever hears is the bottom number. They gave you exactly what you asked for. You are unlikely to have any negotiation power left to increase the offer.

I agree that they were looking at the bottom number, but disagree with the rest.  It is a negotiation.  You can change your mind right up until you sign the paperwork.  The OP's leverage isn't her initial position, her leverage is that she has a skill set that the prospective employer wants.

True, but on the other hand requesting something, having the employer meed that request, and then changing your mind and asking for even more could be interpreted by the counterpart as negotiating in bad faith, which will likely make them question whether they really want to proceed.

This obviously doesn't preclude you from incorporating new information, like if they matched your lower range but you also found out they offer shitty benefits and no vacation, it would be perfectly well motivated to ask for more given what you now know. But saying "I want $100k", getting it, and then saying "actually, I want $120k", is unlikely to go over well, IMHO. Nothing's preventing you from doing it if you really wouldn't be happy with 100k though.

Exactly - well said.

To the OP -I think you will need to provide new information to proceed here.

This company is already likely scratching their heads as to why you previously accepted 50k less for X years, retired, and then all of a sudden are demanding >50k more to return. (Assuming I understood your history correctly?)

The best form of leverage is to have 3-5 competing offers. Why not go out and interview elsewhere if you want to command top dollar? Having multiple offers helps to establish the market rate of your individual skill set and validate a candidate in the eyes of HR  - which then enables the recruiters/HR to go wild with the hire package :)

[Fru-Gal]

I consistently stated from the beginning of the interview process the number that I was comfortable with returning at. When pressed I gave a range, and at the beginning of this thread I shared what they were stating because I wanted to see if anybody agreed with me it sounded like BS.

The cool thing is I had a good response to that, again explaining the value of what I provide and how much more expensive it would be for them to try to achieve the same result using contractors. So I’m not changing my story if I ask for more. However at this point I have verbally accepted what they proposed. I think I could’ve gone a little bit higher but my husband was amazed at the number and urged me to accept. It is a massive increase over what I was making before. Now to see if and when it comes in writing.

FYI this is 100% remote. There may be some travel a few times a year. If it works out I can add another year to my 401(k) in just a few paychecks. My goal is to do no more than one or two years, which would put me at the rule of 55.

But to reiterate I really am fine no matter what happens. I am 🔥.

[Telecaster]

It is a massive increase over what I was making before.

Nice!  Great job!