Author Topic: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)  (Read 2053 times)

moreofless

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Hello folks! I'm in my mid-twenties and in the middle of making a career shift out here in the Boulder/Denver metro area. I found out I really hated the career my degree pointed to (luckily minimal student debt) so I decided to take some savings and turn my longtime hobby of web design into a new career. I took a web development bootcamp and learned a TON over the course of 6 months, built a portfolio and started applying. Unfortunately it was really hard to get my foot in the door despite a strong portfolio and killer people skills. After 50 applications I got one phone screening, which led to one technical interview, and one follow up interview. I aced all that according to feedback from the interviewers, but the team lead let me know they were going with someone who had industry experience and a CS degree. So, I did some research and ended up doing an apprenticeship program with a local agency. They basically take projects from other tech companies, have their senior team+apprentices work on the project, and then whoever commissioned the project gets first stab at recruiting the people who worked on it. If that doesn't work out past project partners are given your resume. About 90% of people who go through the program get hired by one partner company or another.

The sponsoring company for the project I've been working on has a senior engineer who's been keeping track of my work and he just let me know that they'd like to have me come and do an interview. He said they're confident in my coding skills, so the interview will be about culture fit, and salary expectations, after which he expects they'll make me an offer.

This is my first job in this industry- I'd be working as a full stack Rails engineer, and I'd be one of two people with front end responsibilities on a team of 15. I have a design background (love the work, didn't love the career) and I've been told the other front end person would really like to not do so much front end anymore. As I see it this puts me in a pretty strong position.

1. I've been working on their code for 4 months, there is no on ramp. I have the company's environment and flows down cold. Most if not all of the time it takes to go from floundering jr dev to productive jr dev is already out of the way because of the apprenticeship structure.
2. They have full confidence in my coding ability. There are no gambles in hiring me for a jr dev position.
3. I cost nothing to hire/recruit. There's little time or monetary cost to hiring me.
4. I can take over the workflows that they don't have a happily dedicated person for, and probably do it better than most people who do full stack because I actually have a design background.
5. I get along with the senior engineer who would be leading my team, and have met and gotten along with 3 other team members in the mid to senior level of the company.

I feel like this should actually put me in a really strong position to negotiate a good starting salary, but there are a few things I worry about:

1. I'm a Hispanic woman, and I'm slightly worried that the culture fit won't strongly sway in my favor. I would be the only woman on the technical side of the company, the youngest on the technical team, and the only latina in the company as far as I know. I don't know if that's because of that self selecting bias you read about in tech companies or just because there aren't many people like me living where I do and working in tech. Based on interactions I've had with people I'm guessing the latter, but I can't know that for sure.
2. All my true work experience is in this apprenticeship.
3. They know that they're the first people who will be making me a job offer.

Whatever they offer me will be a huge increase in salary from my previous work, so there's a part of me which is insecure about moving into this industry and feeling a teeny bit of imposter syndrome and looking back on my time searching for work with dread and fear which says 'TAKE WHATEVER THEY GIVE YOU AND GO FROM THERE!' But there's a bigger part of me which says I'm one hell of an asset and I would be a great addition to their team. I just don't know what to ask for, what to say when they ask about my previous salary, and how hard to negotiate.

Any advice would be appreciated, from what a reasonable expectation for a starting salary would be, to how to gracefully negotiate if that expectation isn't met. This is going to be the first time I'll be earning significantly more than it takes me to live, and I'd like to avoid starting this career with a starting salary behind other people and needing to scramble my way to reasonable raises etc going forward, especially as I didn't come to it straight out of college.

TLDR: What should a person with unrelated degree+work experience up until 6 months ago but excellent worth to the company expect as a starting salary for a full stack developer, and how should it be negotiated gracefully if the offer is lower than that expectation?


sokoloff

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2018, 11:00:06 PM »
To be honest, getting this job at any remotely reasonable salary is more important than whether it’s $85K or $95K per year. The first role for a career changer is usually the hardest.

Use Glassdoor.com and/or other similar sites to benchmark that company and city. We’re paying new grads $100K in Boston. Don’t have any firsthand experience in Colorado. You might also call up some recruiting firms and see what intel you can get on the market rates.

It’s better to take the job and give up $5K or even $10K. That’s all fixable down the road (at that company or another).

COEE

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 07:30:30 AM »
I'd take whatever they offered just to get your foot in the door and get that precious work experience on your resume.  I'd be looking to job hop in 1 or 2 years, possibly less, for sure not more.  I'd have zero intention in staying long term.

As for the latina thing.  There are not many latino folks in tech at least not in this area... and not many women either.  You're a rare one.  Good on ya.  Pave the way for future generations.  Continue to be bold!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:34:41 AM by COEE »

sokoloff

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2018, 07:53:35 AM »
Many kudos on getting to this point!

Hopefully you'll enjoy the field as much as I did; I honestly felt like companies were paying me fairly insane amounts of money to do something that I was already doing for free in my spare time anyway.

As for the double-minority thing, I have no personal experience but speak fairly freely with several friends who are women in tech and I think that 98% of the tech community is very open-minded, welcoming, and only interested in "what can you do with a computer?" The 2% "others" (to be polite, I'll refrain from calling them what I actually think of them) can be very visible, vocal, and make things uncomfortable. The key advice I'd give is to not put up with any of it. The first time a bully tries to bully you, (figuratively) punch them square in the nose: no more bullying. Concretely, speak directly to the person [in public if warranted] and if it doesn't stop immediately, escalate to your boss or HR. Most leadership chains will be extremely supportive of having an inclusive results-matter workplace and will support you. If you find one that doesn't, burn them and move to the next company that does.

MayDay

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2018, 12:32:24 PM »
Check out the ask a manager blog for negotiation advice too.

One tip from her that I love: if they push you to reveal apast salary, say "I'm not able to share that asmy employer considered it confidential information, but I can tell you that I am looking for a salary in the 80-90k range depending on benefits.

No salary advice, I'm an engineer but don't know what software salaries are like, exactly.

mozar

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 04:58:25 PM »
Did you make any acquaintances in the boot camp that got jobs and can ask what their starting salary was? You can also ask your boot camp teachers. You should have a meetup.com group and you could go to a happy hour and ask them. Call your local women in tech chapter. It's better to ask people who live near because data online usually uses averages. When I changed careers 10 years ago I asked the men I knew who were getting similar jobs as me what they were offered and did they negotiate.

I also want to say I'm very proud of you. You've got a bright career ahead.

formerlydivorcedmom

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 09:35:41 AM »
The good news about being a woman in tech is that when you go to conferences the line for the men's room is much longer than the line for the ladies'.  It means you can get a front-row seat at the next session because you didn't have to wait!

You are not going to be able to negotiate as hard for your first job as you will for later ones...but your initial salary can impact your future salary progression.

Definitely follow the other ideas offered - ask your boot camp and apprenticeship coordinators about average salaries for people with your skills, ask colleagues in the boot camp and apprenticeship about their starting salaries in this field, and check glassdoor and ladders.com for salary information for this particular company.  Together, these will give you a very good idea of what the market is for your area AND that industry.

If they ask your past salary, use the suggested response that it was a different industry and not relevant.  If they push, say something like "I understand that the range for entry-level developers in this area is about $X.  As you know, I won't have the ramp-up period of many who are starting straight out of school - I will hit the ground running."

If their initial offer is significantly under what you concluded it should be....your best tactic is silence.  Just sit and digest it.  Or you can say "That is lower than I was anticipating", and then sit in silence.  I got a 5% increase in a salary offer once by doing that...but that was my 3rd job, not my 1st.

If they lowball you and are unwilling to come up, even though they know your value, then you have to weigh whether to take the job just to get your foot in the door or look elsewhere...

Good luck!

mxt0133

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Re: negotiating salary in a new industry (web/software development)
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 09:55:18 AM »
First, I would focus on kicking ass on the interview and continuing to build up your skill set.  If you rock at Ruby then beef up on CSS, Javascript, ect.  Do not stop learning especially so early in your career.  More importantly don't limit your growth based on what your current employer needs from you.  If they only want you to only do UI but you want to be a full stack engineer then continue to learn other technologies on your own time.

Once you do get an offer you need to know if it is a market rate offer.  Do as much research as you can on what the starting salary is for someone with your experience and location.  That way you know if they are low balling you or giving you a market rate offer.  Other's have already said reach out to other students from the bootcamp and sites such as Glassdoor.

As for the double minority thing, that I would milk as much as possible.  It might apply to more of the larger tech firms.  Prepare to job hop every few years and work on projects that you want to work and not just projects your employer gives to you.  Go on interviews every 6 months so you know what your market rate is and know what employers are looking form in terms of skills and technology.  Make it a point to get an offer even if you have no plans of moving.