Negotiating a better raise - I think I'm getting the shaft

[Juslookin]

I have been promised a promotion for quite a long time with my fortune 500 company in banking.  I have worked as a "worker bee" for 17 years for this company and have been groomed to take a new "Management" position.  I have known for awhile that several of my co-workers earn more than me.  They have been here longer and have had the time to accumulate more increases than me.

The problem now is that the job has finally arrived.  However, when I spoke to HR they told me that the pay increase was not negotiable.  It was a flat 10% based on the salary grade of the new job, compared to my current salary grade.

I know for a fact that at least 6 of my staff reporting to me would be earning more than me in this position at this salary. I also know for a fact that I work harder, longer and smarter than any of them.  I'm incredibly offended that after all these years my company essentially tells me that they do not value my contributions.

So does anyone have any suggestions, words of wisdom, been in a similar situation, been able to argue with HR or maybe I argue with my boss (who I would still report to and she sings my praises loud and often).   Do we really think that the 10% is written in stone, just because HR says it is?  MMM is a smart group of people and I am hoping that I can get some help from your experiences.



Thanks!

[gooki]

1. Attempt to neogotiate for a win win solution. I personally don't believe the I'm worth it because x, y, z works. I prefer the I need xxx dollars to do this role. Be prepared to say no if they won't move, stay in your current role, and start looking elsewhere. This is the route I took, and ended up increasing my salary 60% in six months by switching employees.

2. Get a job offer from somewhere else and ask them to compete. You may have to use some delay tactics here to buy you the time to get that offer.

3. Take the job for the experience and then look elsewhere for employment after a year.

[Ishmael]

When faced with situations like this, I take it as a learning experience as to how the people involved really are. In this case, it sounds like they're completely OK with taking advantage of a dedicated, talented, hard-working employee.

Here's what I'd probably do:

• Chat with your boss - with whom you seem to have a good relationship - and calmly explain that you believe the compensation for this position should be higher, and that you're disappointed in getting started in your new position this way.
  
• In every other way, glowly act enthused about the position. Accept it. Remain positive at work. Remember, you're only there for the money! ;)
• Excel at the position.
• As soon as possible, start looking for a similar position in another organization. The value you're getting right now is experience, and resume material.
• When you find a better opportunity, leave for it as quickly as possible.
• If they attempt to counter-offer, simply state that you should have been appropriately compensated when offered the position in the first place.

It's possible that perhaps you'll find from this process that you are indeed actually receiving market rates for your salary - in that case, you won't have done anything to jeopardize your current position, or damage any relationships, in any way.

I detest things like this.  It's been widely commented on this site that people who stay with one company earn less than those that move around a bit, because companies will enthusiastically take advantage of loyalty, and pay incoming employees more. It's just the way it seems to work.

[Capt j-rod]

This is where the power of mustache kicks in. Today's promotions usually go like this. We take three positions and eliminate at least one. We then take these responsibilities and re-distruibute them to the remaining two. Throw them 10% in salary in exchange for the same amount of work. Unless that 10-15% is a life changing amount of money, then let them hire someone else and keep your current job. More money = more work = more responsibility. Every "promotion" I was ever offered was a sucker bet. Set a number that will be fair for all parties and let the employer make the call. It's like buying a car. I will pay X dollars for your vehicle. If we're close I might bite. If you're off your rocker? Keep your car.

[jax8]

My husband's company has a strict Promotions max out at 10% increase policy.  The employees echo it around like Dothraki: "It is known." It's not unheard of for companies to set policies like that, and yes, it makes employees feel undervalued and sets everyone up for job hopping.  And maybe that's on purpose--maybe they want their employees to have experience and insights from other companies to bring to the table, rather than company men who only know the company way? 

In your situation, 17 years at one company is an incredibly long time. Why not see what else is out there?  You could be right at market value, you could be underpaid, or you might be just what XYZ company across town has been looking for.  You'll only find out by looking outside of your company.

The general advice out there is that if you haven't been promoted within 5 years, you're stagnant.  Reasons could be: 1.) you're at a company with no room for growth, 2.) you're underperforming, 3.) your bosses don't like you (or just like others better) and are happy to keep you where you are while marking other favorites for promotions.  All of these reasons are slaps in the face, and they should be.  We're all dedicating huge chunks of our lives to these companies--I know that I want that time and effort to be successful.

I'm facing punching myself with this one, too.  I'm coming up on year 5 and I'm sitting at the same desk doing the same job I was doing when I started, with small raises each year.  I'm having my own Come to Jesus moment with my role here.

[Case]

I have been promised a promotion for quite a long time with my fortune 500 company in banking.  I have worked as a "worker bee" for 17 years for this company and have been groomed to take a new "Management" position.  I have known for awhile that several of my co-workers earn more than me.  They have been here longer and have had the time to accumulate more increases than me.

The problem now is that the job has finally arrived.  However, when I spoke to HR they told me that the pay increase was not negotiable.  It was a flat 10% based on the salary grade of the new job, compared to my current salary grade.

I know for a fact that at least 6 of my staff reporting to me would be earning more than me in this position at this salary. I also know for a fact that I work harder, longer and smarter than any of them.  I'm incredibly offended that after all these years my company essentially tells me that they do not value my contributions.

So does anyone have any suggestions, words of wisdom, been in a similar situation, been able to argue with HR or maybe I argue with my boss (who I would still report to and she sings my praises loud and often).   Do we really think that the 10% is written in stone, just because HR says it is?  MMM is a smart group of people and I am hoping that I can get some help from your experiences.



Thanks!

You've stated that the people making more than you have seniority.  It might surprise you, but some companies work this way.  Companies often have pay brackets, and until you get promoted to a higher level you can't make more than people at a similar level.  This is how my company works (a large company you have definitely heard of).  There are definitely cases where people get promoted ahead of other people.  But in terms of management, this doesn't happen to so great a degree to people that are in middle management, rather than those groomed for 'leadership' (e.g. people that become what we call directors); these people get promoted at crazy fast rates.  In contrast, the middle managers tend to be a little higher level than the workers bees, but not always and not by much. 

In any case, everything is always negotiable, and you can always look for new jobs.  My company has more rigid rules on promotions/salary.  However, they also lie.  They have rigid rules, but every once in a while i hear about exceptions.  "we always hire everyone in at the same salary (except for these special cases where we really want the person".  I have heard that the only way to get the company to budge is to threaten with a counter offer from another company, otherwise it's very hard to get them to move fast.

[Juslookin]

Thank you for all of the responses.  I am really thinking about this situation and taking into consideration what everyone is saying.

Ishmael: you have offered me some real thoughts to consider.  There is value in the experience and the management title to put on my resume, I am just so offended that I feel like they are not putting a fair value on me. The things that I do for the company every day.  I think that I'm not seeing clearly right now because I was just so offended and I might need a day or two to cool off.

My thought is now that I will try to negotiate something higher, let them tell me no, take the position and gain the experience and see what the future brings.

[scantee]

There is value in the experience and the management title to put on my resume, I am just so offended that I feel like they are not putting a fair value on me. The things that I do for the company every day.  I think that I'm not seeing clearly right now because I was just so offended and I might need a day or two to cool off.

Your 17 years at this company is working against you. I'm sure you see it as a huge plus, but your management likely sees it as evidence that you are easily accommodated. That they can push you around and you will stay and just take whatever job, title, or salary they give you. The question is, are they right?

I think you need to do a little bit of self-examination about what your goals are. Specifically, I think you need to figure out if the stability and predictability of continuing to work for this company is something you value more than the actual work you're doing, title, or salary. There is nothing wrong with valuing staying at this workplace above all else, but if you do, I think then you should acknowledge and accept that you will continue to be treated like this for the remainder of your time there.

If were me, I wouldn't take the promotion, because it's likely a lot more work for not much more money and it's not as if your management will start to magically value you once you reach this higher level. They won't. And in another five to seven years you'll find yourself right back where you are now: wondering why you're being passed up for promotions and why people at lower levels than you make more.

[Case]

Thank you for all of the responses.  I am really thinking about this situation and taking into consideration what everyone is saying.

Ishmael: you have offered me some real thoughts to consider.  There is value in the experience and the management title to put on my resume, I am just so offended that I feel like they are not putting a fair value on me. The things that I do for the company every day.  I think that I'm not seeing clearly right now because I was just so offended and I might need a day or two to cool off.

My thought is now that I will try to negotiate something higher, let them tell me no, take the position and gain the experience and see what the future brings.

Keep in mind that you can always take the position, get a counter offer and then threaten to leave if they don't bump you up.  It's harder for the company to lose you after you've worked yourself into a niche and at least gotten an training out of the way... remember you are almost always replaceable, but that replacement has a cost (monetary) and a company will seek to avoid that to some degree.  Question is, what's the cost; maximize that cost!

[krisvolley27]

Sounds to me like you should find another company to work for.  Companies can not disclose your salary, they can only confirm your employment.  I have traditionally been a top performer in every company I've worked for and was underpaid.  When I left one company for another I inflated my current salary by 25K.  The new company paid me 30K more than I was making at my former job.  Unfortunately that wasn't a great fit for me so a year later I was approached about another opportunity.  With my base as high as it was they had to work hard to match it but they did and now I am paid in the 80% of Directors as a female.  I don't believe in the glass ceiling you just have to be a little ballsy and smart when you make changes. 
To each their own.  My first attempt wasn't successful but my second change was and is the best move of my life.  I love my job, my house and my life in general!!
Good luck!

[MaaS]

I've found that "non-negotiable" (in the private sector) is typically a sneaky little trick the company uses because they know it'll make a vast majority of people back down.

(Almost) Everything is negotiable if there's leverage.  You're probably correct in thinking you could/should be getting more.

One other note: A lot of people seem to have this idea that a "manager" MUST make more than his/her "reports."  Absolutely false and not something I'd anchor to in negotiations.  Some people in execution roles are worth an incredible amount to the company, and would arguably be worth less if they were thrown into middle management.  Not saying that's the case here, more of a grandstand/rant on the issue :D

[Goldielocks]

I have been promised a promotion for quite a long time with my fortune 500 company in banking.  I have worked as a "worker bee" for 17 years for this company and have been groomed to take a new "Management" position.  I have known for awhile that several of my co-workers earn more than me.  They have been here longer and have had the time to accumulate more increases than me.

The problem now is that the job has finally arrived.  However, when I spoke to HR they told me that the pay increase was not negotiable.  It was a flat 10% based on the salary grade of the new job, compared to my current salary grade.

I know for a fact that at least 6 of my staff reporting to me would be earning more than me in this position at this salary. I also know for a fact that I work harder, longer and smarter than any of them.  I'm incredibly offended that after all these years my company essentially tells me that they do not value my contributions.

So does anyone have any suggestions, words of wisdom, been in a similar situation, been able to argue with HR or maybe I argue with my boss (who I would still report to and she sings my praises loud and often).   Do we really think that the 10% is written in stone, just because HR says it is?  MMM is a smart group of people and I am hoping that I can get some help from your experiences.



Thanks!

It is actually fairly common that a few or your employees would make more than you as a boss, so this is not about the supervisor vs employee pay raise.

Others have good suggestions, typically you need to identify how your skills are adding profit to the company.  after 17 years, getting a second offer for somewhere else, at a higher salary would help.  The payscales that your company provides or sets up are based (they think) on market conditions for your role in your city, so you need to show them that they are wrong.

[Juslookin]

Thanks for all the input, I have decided to not mention the disparity between my increase and the salaries of my potential staff and instead focus on why the increase should be higher and I have a list of reasons and have done my research.

[Dicey]

Good answer!

[SnackDog]

You should be able to have a private conversation with your HR rep about this. Ask him or her for all the details and not to mention this conversation.  Explain you want to understand how your new responsibilities will be compensated and how your pay grade will reflect your rising position. Explain you expect to supervise people at higher pay grades only temporarily until you are promoted to the appropriate grade to have 100% direct input on their annual performance and therefore their full allegiance to your leadership.