Author Topic: Need outsiders perspective  (Read 3773 times)

Murse

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Need outsiders perspective
« on: March 03, 2019, 06:08:03 PM »
I guess I am wanting someone to tell me that I am coast/barista FI and will be fine.
Age-26, married 0 kids but will likely have kids in 2-3 years.
Assets- letís call it 170k invested.
Problem- I am an on call nurse, have been for 2 years waiting for a permanent position to open at my current facility. When I arrived I had a frank conversation with my boss asking her to do her best to maintain my hours at full time. Our schedules are now changing, my boss attempted to get another position opened and was told no. My hours are about to be cut as soon as she hires someone (lower level nurse, this vacant position is why I was able to keep my hours up.)

I guess I am stressed for a few reasons-1) I was hoping to max my 457 by June, currently putting on the equivalent of half my salary in. 2) I have a 457 loan, this amounts to about 8% of my gross pay 3) my contract is up in June (I am in a limited duration position.) this will likely be renewed, my position saves on over time but is not a sure thing 4) we are moving on May 1st and dropping the roommate as well as increasing our rent about 30%. Realistically rent will increase to about 10-12% of our HH gross income.

Basically I am feeling an irrational amount of fear/anxiety over all this, I need someone or multiple someoneís to rationally spell out that we will be okay.

RWD

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2019, 06:31:53 PM »
What are your total expenses now? Expected expenses in the future with kids? How do these numbers compare to your household income with your salary cut? $170k could be pretty difficult to coast on depending on the answers to those questions and your expectations for how long you (and spouse) will coast.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 07:14:28 PM »
125-130k gross income, 2/3rds of it is mine when working FT. Expenses currently=30-35kish, estimated expenses at retirement with children/mortgage, probably 50-60k.

I would expect HH income to be 80kish with me working part time.

As for finding another job, I may do that. This is a bit more nuanced then I originally wrote, I could get a job tomorrow at my old institution (same employer different location.) however working conditions are miserable there and it is a hour commute. I chose to leave a full time position to work my way into this other location.

Second, I have an associated degree, so finding work that will compensate similar to what I currently make in my current role has proven difficult in the past but could be done if needed.

Honestly this did not stress me out until I ran the numbers and realized that my paychecks wonít be large enough to cover my 457 deferrals and loan payments and an additional 6% to @ seperate retirement account that is mandatory.

Oh speaking of, I should of mentioned in addition to the 170k, I will be eligible to a pension equal to 45% of my pay in 22 years. In addition, 6% of my pay Is deferred to a seperate retirement account that I cannot stop if I wanted to.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 07:16:06 PM by Murse »

ender

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2019, 07:18:29 PM »
I'm struggling to understand your bosses motivation here - something seems off.

They can hire a lower grade nurse but not convert you to FT?

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2019, 07:21:30 PM »
I am a registered nurse. We have a vacant licensed practical nurse position. The pay for the vacant position is roughly 60% of what would be required to convert it to an RN position. She requested her bosses find room in the budget and was told no.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 03:15:33 AM »
170K invested should not make you really nervous of losing your job.

Is it an option for you to move to another location? Maybe not to your previous job, as that sucked. But to another city?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 07:55:50 AM by Linda_Norway »

NonprofitER

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 07:45:43 AM »
I know its very emotional for some to consider moving, but RN's are in demand almost everywhere. Surely there's a more stable opportunity out there to consider?  I'm not sure how close or far you are to other options, but I would give it some thought.

My spouse is a F/T RN in a acute hospital setting and makes well over $120k/yr (with overtime) after practicing about 7 years (he changed careers in his late 20's) - and we're not in the highest paid RN market by any stretch because so many people want to live in our city (Austin TX).  He has stayed within the same hospital system and worked his way up, but I've been impressed at how fast he's basically been able to 1.75x his base salary, which of course is amplified on any OT pay. 

We do find the income is cyclical over the year.  During the Fall/Winter months, the hospital is flooded with patients (flu, RSV, etc) and overtime/bonuses are free flowing. An actual example: yesterday my spouse was not scheduled but the hospital was desperate for RN's and offered bonus $ + OT for anyone who would come in. This worked out to functionally $100/hr offer - so he went in to happily accept it.
We stash a ton between Oct - March.  In the Spring/Summer, fewer patients = less opportunities for overtime, no seasonal bonuses, even the possibility of not making FT hours/ getting sent home. We plan for this and usually schedule travel as a family during this period, tackle house projects, cash in extra PTO, etc. 

While your current situation sounds stressful, the healthcare market is always in need and is expected to grow.


Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 04:33:26 PM »
Yes, I live near a large growing city. There are other employment opportunities nearby, but I havenít had luck in my past searches but I honestly didnít try very hard. My plan has been to get in with my current employer, put in a few years then when we have a decent sized snowball started then to switch to part time and decide how to proceed. I think a big part of my reluctance to leave is that I am 3.5 years into a 5 year vesting period for my state pension. Once I hit 5 years I will then be earning 3.5 weeks vacation/year and it will be harder to leave.


My base salary is currently around 90k, however I expect this to jump to 105kish around May or June due to union contract negotiations. I think I am stressing for no reason but I canít stop. I have 308 hours of vacation saved as well as 200 hours of sick leave. And 70 hours of various other leaves. I just canít stop worrying.


robartsd

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 05:33:12 PM »
RNs are in enough demand, you'll be able to find something that will work for your family. My only concern is the 457 loan. You said it is 8% of your gross - is that the payment or is the balance 8% of your annual gross?

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 05:42:51 PM »
RNs are in enough demand, you'll be able to find something that will work for your family. My only concern is the 457 loan. You said it is 8% of your gross - is that the payment or is the balance 8% of your annual gross?

the Monthly payment is 8% of gross income. Loan is around 19k currently. If I lost the job I would be paid out my vacation time which is around 12.6k before tax. I also have 15k in a brokerage account that I could access if needed.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 06:11:52 PM by Murse »

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2019, 05:32:02 PM »
Update- LPN job posting closes on the 19th, interviews are being set up. I imagine the new LPN wonít start until mid April, I also imagine I will be scheduled to train them through the end of April. May is the big question mark, I have no idea how many hours I will get.

On the plus side my coworker who has previously set 2 retirement dates and not followed through has set a new retirement date of may 31st. For His previous retirement dates he did not do any prep work or file any retirement paperwork, this time he has actually scheduled an appointment to turn in his retirement paperwork so there is hope. His apt is in less then 3 weeks so I think I will have a more solid answer after that.

We have submitted our applications for the new rental, will pay about double what we currently pay with a roommate (1200 instead of 600 monthly.) I am saving everything I can between now and then to get through May. Again, logically I know we will be fine but emotionally I am having a tough time with it. We will move at the end of April.

lhamo

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2019, 08:15:57 PM »
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered therapy?

Your anxiety about this is not based in reality.  Your partner's income almost covers your current expenses.  That plus your current stash would carry you for a LOOOONG time if you did lose your job.  But you are an experienced RN -- you will never be out of work unless you want to be (or are disabled somehow).

Deep breaths.  You will be fine.  You have options.  Do think about seeing someone to work on the thought patterns that are making you so stressed out/miserable.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 08:08:49 PM »
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered therapy?

Your anxiety about this is not based in reality.  Your partner's income almost covers your current expenses.  That plus your current stash would carry you for a LOOOONG time if you did lose your job.  But you are an experienced RN -- you will never be out of work unless you want to be (or are disabled somehow).

Deep breaths.  You will be fine.  You have options.  Do think about seeing someone to work on the thought patterns that are making you so stressed out/miserable.

Not taken badly at all. I might see a counselor in the future but I honestly donít feel like dealing with scheduling something when my schedule is all over the place.

I think I am all wound up because this has been my end game/goal for quite some time, becoming full time at this facility. I feel I have put my time in and am afraid of having to start all over elsewhere.

1) I have kind of arbitraged my pay and am afraid of losing it, I belong to a union that negotiates pay based on the working conditions at other facilities. I do not believe I would be able to secure similar pay to my current pay without major changes- getting a BSN and switching to hospital work.
2) as far as I am concerned, this is the best facility in the state.
3) I am nearly 4 years into a 5 year vesting period for a state pension
4) I have a 457 loan that would be due at the time of job loss.
5) throw in a move that will increase expenses around at least 800$/month at the same time I may or may not get get let go/lose hours and yes, I am stressed.

Kayad

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 09:59:01 PM »
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered therapy?

Your anxiety about this is not based in reality.  Your partner's income almost covers your current expenses.  That plus your current stash would carry you for a LOOOONG time if you did lose your job.  But you are an experienced RN -- you will never be out of work unless you want to be (or are disabled somehow).

Deep breaths.  You will be fine.  You have options.  Do think about seeing someone to work on the thought patterns that are making you so stressed out/miserable.

Ditto this.  The most likely worst case scenario seems to be that you arenít able to max the 457 as quickly as you want.  Not going to derail your life.  I donít see anthything in your post that substantiates your fear of being laid off.  It sounds like your boss likes you and just tried to keep you happy by pitching your full time position.  You effectively have a 170k emergency fund.  You work in a high demand industry and have an immediate fall back option, even if its not your dream job..  You are in, overall, great shape.  Iím not sure the words of internet strangers are what you need to convince you of that though.

Re: the vested pension.  My DS also has a pension that vests at 5 years.  We were interested in other work options, but that pension seemed so important.  Doing the math, however, it was clear that if we pulled the lump sum of DSís contributions and invested it, it would end slightly more valuable than the piddly pension (very piddly at the vesting threshold), assuming average historic market returns.  As it happened, we will still probably hit the 5 year mark and keep the pension, just as a diverse revenue stream a few decades down the line, but doing the math helped us see the vesting threshold should be basically irrelevant to our planning.  So doing the math could help your state of mind...

Laura33

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2019, 10:41:01 AM »
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered therapy?

Your anxiety about this is not based in reality.  Your partner's income almost covers your current expenses.  That plus your current stash would carry you for a LOOOONG time if you did lose your job.  But you are an experienced RN -- you will never be out of work unless you want to be (or are disabled somehow).

Deep breaths.  You will be fine.  You have options.  Do think about seeing someone to work on the thought patterns that are making you so stressed out/miserable.

Not taken badly at all. I might see a counselor in the future but I honestly donít feel like dealing with scheduling something when my schedule is all over the place.

I think I am all wound up because this has been my end game/goal for quite some time, becoming full time at this facility. I feel I have put my time in and am afraid of having to start all over elsewhere.

1) I have kind of arbitraged my pay and am afraid of losing it, I belong to a union that negotiates pay based on the working conditions at other facilities. I do not believe I would be able to secure similar pay to my current pay without major changes- getting a BSN and switching to hospital work.
2) as far as I am concerned, this is the best facility in the state.
3) I am nearly 4 years into a 5 year vesting period for a state pension
4) I have a 457 loan that would be due at the time of job loss.
5) throw in a move that will increase expenses around at least 800$/month at the same time I may or may not get get let go/lose hours and yes, I am stressed.

Anxiety can easily be triggered by fears that you will be set off-track by forces outside your control.  Ergo, the best fix -- other than therapy -- is to control what you can.  So instead of the anxiety cycle of fretting about what you can't change, why not spend some time re-evaluating your situation to control what you can? 

  • Can you pay back the 457 loan faster so that you don't have to worry about it all coming due at once?
  • Can you delay the move to the new apartment, or get a new roommate temporarily?
  • Can you re-run worst-case projections assuming your current investments just sit there until you retire and your pension kicks in?
  • Can your spouse pick up more work?
  • Can you start a side-hustle?

Etc. 

The reality is that you are in fine shape -- you clearly have fuck-you money, in spades, and in fact could survive indefinitely even if you never worked again.  You need to break the mental thought pattern that is making you feel helpless and remind yourself of all of the things you can do to control your own fate.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 01:28:59 PM »
Regarding the pension, I would like help calculating its benefit because I am calculating it is worth roughly 20k per year. I have 26 years to go until I qualify for 52% of my final average salary calculated as the average of my top 3 years of pay. I will reach the top of my salary range as a floor nurse with an adn later this year at 105k/ year.

I could (and likely will) retire at age 50 in 23 years and receive a reduced pension of 70% of 48% of my final average salary.



Dicey

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2019, 01:39:00 PM »
Based on personal experience, it could be the 457 loan. What was it for? What kind of emergency did you face that compelled you take this loan? Sorry if you've answered this, but I scanned and didn't see it.

I was shocked at how terrible I felt when I borrowed against my 401k to bridge between real estate transactions. Though I didn't hold it for long and it was a good strategic move, I felt trapped in my job for every single minute of the loan's duration. Hated it.

robartsd

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2019, 02:29:48 PM »
Regarding the pension, I would like help calculating its benefit because I am calculating it is worth roughly 20k per year. I have 26 years to go until I qualify for 52% of my final average salary calculated as the average of my top 3 years of pay. I will reach the top of my salary range as a floor nurse with an adn later this year at 105k/ year.

I could (and likely will) retire at age 50 in 23 years and receive a reduced pension of 70% of 48% of my final average salary.
So in 26 years (age 53?) you'd get 52% of final compensation, but in 23 years (age 50) you'd get 70% (reduction for life expectancy) of 48% (48% vs 52% represents service credits) of final compensation. This doesn't sound right - the penalty for age is too steep. In my retirement system the age difference has to be about 6 years to result in a 30% difference based on age.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 06:38:55 AM »
Re the 457 loan- this is a big part of my anxiety. I took a 457 loan and also emptied a brokerage account.  I took it out to help my parents keep from foreclosure. I made a thread about it and it was not a popular decision amongst the mustachians but thatís what I did. It was the best decision I had at the time. Current plan is for them to refinance their house in a few months to pay me back what is owed. The 457 loan can be repaid early but only in full, I may pay it off later this year if everything works out.

Re the reduced pension benefit, you are correct. I went and rechecked the table, I would get 77.1% of what would otherwise be owed for retiring at 53. Retiring at 50 I would get 48.6% of final average salary minus the 22.9%. Retiring at 53 I would get 54% of final average salary with no reduction.

Re an update- they did interviews, the candidate that is being chosen is not going to start until June. I should get full hours until then- if my colleague retires May 31st as planned, I should be okay.

FatFI2025

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 08:35:55 AM »
So the bad news is that you're not barista FI, not even close. But the good news is that you're in a much better position than you think. One thing that might help you with the uncertainty is to face it head on. Go out and find another job, same or better, and just move. You have too much energy focused on your long term plan with your current employer. 26 more years? I mean I love me a pension, but so much will happen between now and the time you're 50. It's probable that the pension plan will be frozen during that time.

Also if work causes you so much anxiety, why not plan to RE in five or ten years? You talk about quitting today for barista FIRE and then staying another quarter century for the pension. Surely there's an in-between where you just max your pay and savings for the next five or ten years. When you become truly FI, you will probably find that your job anxiety drops.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 02:13:42 PM »
So the bad news is that you're not barista FI, not even close. But the good news is that you're in a much better position than you think. One thing that might help you with the uncertainty is to face it head on. Go out and find another job, same or better, and just move. You have too much energy focused on your long term plan with your current employer. 26 more years? I mean I love me a pension, but so much will happen between now and the time you're 50. It's probable that the pension plan will be frozen during that time.

Also if work causes you so much anxiety, why not plan to RE in five or ten years? You talk about quitting today for barista FIRE and then staying another quarter century for the pension. Surely there's an in-between where you just max your pay and savings for the next five or ten years. When you become truly FI, you will probably find that your job anxiety drops.

I am a planner and experience quite a bit of anxiety when my plan gets rocked. This is true even when my wife tells me we need to leave at 1200 and I am still waiting on her at 1205. The plan for the last 3 years has been- work my tail off until 30 trying to make as much money in a way that doesnít make me hate my life, accrue around 600kish then have some babyís, switch to part time work and live life while waiting for the nest egg to grow. This would give me the flexibility of pulling the plug whenever I am ready, or coasting until I hit enough years for my pension.

I intentionally have put myself through things other people are not willing to do to get where I am. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and For a few days it looked like the light was going to go out. I was afraid of losing a 100k salary, 3 weeks vacation, 2 weeks annual sick leave, no nightshifts, and a pretty good work place for my specialty all as an associate degree nurse. In order to make anywhere close to what I am making now I would need a bachelors, and even then it would likely take 3-4 years to catch back up to my current salary. If I lost my job I could realistically find another one making 70-80k.

I am planning a move to a larger living space and dropping a roommate, my housing expenses all in are going to double. Then the prospect of me losing my job/hours/pension vesting came up and I just lost it. If I lost my job I would also owe my 457 plan my loan back in less then 90 days. My hours are secure until at least June. I feel better now.

The lesson I have learned here- I really need an emergency fund. Not having an E-fund while I am in an insecure job, with a large loan that would come due at time of job loss, while moving up in housing is a mistake.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 02:50:32 PM by Murse »

Sibley

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 02:37:23 PM »
Murse, I remember you. It sounds like you overextended, at least emotionally, and now you're flipping out. Take this as a lesson - you took on too much risk and you can't handle it. Nothing wrong with that, everyone has a different risk tolerance. Now you have more information to help you make better decisions in future.

So, survival mode, even though it isn't technically necessary. Start job searching. If your current place of employment doesn't value you enough to want to hire you FT, then that should tell you something. Find something else. The pension is a red herring. Ignore it.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 03:02:40 PM »
Murse, I remember you. It sounds like you overextended, at least emotionally, and now you're flipping out. Take this as a lesson - you took on too much risk and you can't handle it. Nothing wrong with that, everyone has a different risk tolerance. Now you have more information to help you make better decisions in future.

So, survival mode, even though it isn't technically necessary. Start job searching. If your current place of employment doesn't value you enough to want to hire you FT, then that should tell you something. Find something else. The pension is a red herring. Ignore it.

Thanks Sibley,

Looking at this situation from where I am at now, if I left it would be an emotional decision, not a rational one. A colleague is supposed to be retireing in June, I gotta stick it through. To be clear about them not wanting to hire me, they do want to hire me but I work for a government agency, my boss cannot just add a position. This is a small government agency, there are only 6 full time positions at this facility vs 45 at the one I came from that has lots of problems. There is a long line behind me of people waiting to get in. Once I am in, my job will be very secure.

I want to operate my life from a position of strength. My lack of an emergency fund has me in a position of weakness. I am confident I will be fine, now that my hours are secure until June I will have some time to build a small e fund in case something happens.

lhamo

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 06:24:22 PM »
You ARE in a position of strength because you are able to live on so much less than you make.

Do you have flexibility with the 457 contribution schedule?  If so, then stop contributions for now and use those funds to pay back the loan. 

Discuss with your boss the possibility of using your accumulated leave to top up your hours if she can't assign you enough shifts.  You have enough leave hours that this could keep you going a LOOONG time in the event your colleague decides not to retire.

On the latter, if you are on good terms with him maybe offer a "cash for keys" type arrangement -- you'll give him a generous retirement gift if he makes space for you to take on his position!

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 07:00:56 PM »
You ARE in a position of strength because you are able to live on so much less than you make.

Do you have flexibility with the 457 contribution schedule?  If so, then stop contributions for now and use those funds to pay back the loan. 

Discuss with your boss the possibility of using your accumulated leave to top up your hours if she can't assign you enough shifts.  You have enough leave hours that this could keep you going a LOOONG time in the event your colleague decides not to retire.

On the latter, if you are on good terms with him maybe offer a "cash for keys" type arrangement -- you'll give him a generous retirement gift if he makes space for you to take on his position!
Yes, I changed my contributions to max out by September instead of June. I will stop it if I need to.

My boss is okay with me using my hours to top off the hours I donít get. I would prefer not to do this but will if I must obviously.

My co-worker who is retiring wouldnít accept money. He is a sweetheart. The only risk is he has set retirement dates in the past and hasnít followed through. This time however seems to be the real deal.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 07:04:23 AM by Murse »

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2019, 11:02:27 AM »
Figured it was time for an update-

My colleague is retiring at the end of June, the position to replace him has been posted and I expect to get the position. I will be full time in my position until this happens.

Thanks for the support everyone, I have made it to the promised land!

I will be Monday-Friday on swingshift which will come with a >300$/month pay differential. I will also be able to more easily do OT and have a consistent work schedule. I am stoked.

former player

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2019, 11:44:32 AM »
Congratulations - you had a strategy, worked through the uncertainty and are now getting the results with a new job, nicer home, and a secure future.   It's nice to see that it's all working out for you.

Dicey

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2019, 07:12:15 PM »
Figured it was time for an update-

My colleague is retiring at the end of June, the position to replace him has been posted and I expect to get the position. I will be full time in my position until this happens.

Thanks for the support everyone, I have made it to the promised land!

I will be Monday-Friday on swingshift which will come with a >300$/month pay differential. I will also be able to more easily do OT and have a consistent work schedule. I am stoked.
Keep the updates coming.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2019, 04:51:29 PM »
It is official. I was hired and will be making over 100k including my differentials. I start FT on a steady schedule July 1st. I now feel comfortable to begin using my 500 hours of leave, I was hoarding these hours as a ďemergency fundĒ in case I was let go, I would of been cashed out (only on the vacation portion.)

I am super happy! Thanks to everyone for the support while I was going through this rough patch!

My solution to the Efund in case anyone is curious was I switched my brokerage to m1 finance. They allow you to take a loan against your investments at a low interest rate. I am sure this is controversial but at this point my job is now very stable, my 457 loan is getting smaller every month and my brokerage account is growing. My wife is in her new job and is beginning to bring income in again.


Buffalo Chip

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2019, 05:46:01 PM »
Sounds good. One piece of advice from someone else in a Golden Handcuffs pension: 20 or more years is a looooong time. If things start to suck, bail. Donít stick around just because of the pension.

Murse

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2019, 10:42:02 AM »
Sounds good. One piece of advice from someone else in a Golden Handcuffs pension: 20 or more years is a looooong time. If things start to suck, bail. Donít stick around just because of the pension.

Understood and I agree. The fear with the pension was that I have less then 1 year til vesting, after that it is much less of an issue.

Cassie

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Re: Need outsiders perspective
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2019, 01:32:42 PM »
I stuck around through good times and bad for my pension and looking back I am so glad I did. Great to get a monthly check for life.