Need help and advice about dealing with an MLM infestation in the family

[havregryn]

My MIL has always been into all kinds of woo and MLMs and never held a "real" job but she was always fairly reserved about it all. She treated it as her "job" and didn't bring it up much in family circles. She occasionally made my husband buy some of her MLM products that often went straight to trash but he felt it was better to just let it be and not talk about any of it too much. Already back then I felt he and his father were way too evasive and didn't want to call her out on some very obvious madness, but as said, I never felt that this madness was seeping into all aspects of our relationship with them so I let it be.

Starting a year or two ago, something changed. She got more involved in one of these "cure-all" sugarpowders and started talking about them excessively and building in pitches into pretty much every exchange with us. A few months ago she sent my husband a message telling him his uncle had Alzheimers and managed to pitch her concoctions in that too.

She also got really obsessed with the idea that our children (we have 3 kids, turning 3, 6 and 9 this year) need to drink the "junior" version of her concoctions and started CONSTANTLY bringing it up. We said no each and every time, with a varying degree of resolve but she never really backed down. She especially insists that the oldest son should drink it daily in order to "cure" him. He appears to be mildly neurodiverse and is in evaluation for that. She has diagnosed him with a vague disease of her own making and is absolutely certain it would be solved by daily consumption of her concoction.

It's been going on for a good year now and we kept deflecting and telling her that he does not want to drink it (it tastes horrible) but she never really accepted it. She has sent us several emails and handwritten letters explaining how important it is that he drinks these and most recently, she sent us one saying that she would offer him 15€ per month to drink it. That was what really pissed me off, as they'd been remarkably stingy as far as grandparents go and regularly gave him at most 15-20€ for his bday (they are fairly wealthy, I actually find this a bit insulting, they also know we would never let him spend money on junk, I would think that if they want to give him money they should be giving him something that is actually worth keeping for him when he grows up, if their budget for their grandson's bday is 20€ zoo tickets or a Nintendo gift card would feel less tacky).

So I sent a polite e-mail saying that we find her obsession concerning, that we do not want anything to do with this and to leave it at that.

In response came a crazy passive aggressive tirade about how obviously we know better than all the experts who use this and how she would never bring it up again and up to us to not be willing to offer the best to our kids just because we read some haters on the Internet (calling it a pyramid scheme).

The whole thing is batshit nuts.

Now, I have absolutely no problem declining sales pitches, we are NEVER going to subscribe to her concoctions, but this whole situation is really hurtful because I really wanted our kids to have a relationship with their grandparents. I am also really worried about the whole cult-like situation she is putting herself in, as I don't think it's impossible to have that cult raid the coffers of my in-laws (and they're not poor, so I can see how someone would invest in brainwashing her).

She is really displaying a level of obsession with these powders that goes beyond a regular passionate salesman. I am really wondering what to do.  Is there anything we can do to wean her off this madness? I am afraid that minimizing contact would actually serve to reinforce her belief that her cult buddies are all she's got. But there is no reasoning with her.  I don't think she really bought into the get-rich part of the cult, it's only the cure-all part that she is really commited to.

At the same time, I find it deeply personally offensive and hurtful that she would treat our son as some kind of a guinea pig for her concoctions, either by overemphasizing his difficulties or by implying that she can cure his difficulties with that sugar powder.

I strongly believe that she means well and that she is indeed a victim of someone in her upline (there seems to be a woman whose interactions with her on Facebook suggest to me that she's her upline and who is definitely keeping her very close), but that doesn't change that she is completely wrecking her relationship with her son and grandchildren over this.

If anyone has any experience or thoughts, I'd love to hear them. This feels like a safe place where everyone will a priori know what an MLM is so I won't have to listen to accusations of us not being supportive enough for her "career", which I think would be the first counterattack if we ever tried to reason with her more aggresively.

[former player]

Congratulations on holding the line with yourself and your kids.

If your MIL is effectively in a cult and is still receiving and taking in messaging from the cult I don't think anything you can do as her daughter-in-law is going to be effective in counteracting that.

Your husband and his father are also unlikely to be able to counteract the brainwashing, but may be in a better position to limit any practical and financial damage.  But that will be up to them, you can offer an opinion that it would be a good idea for them to take steps to limit any potential damage but you can't make them do it.

Has there been any independent laboratory testing of the products, to confirm what is in them?  If they are being sold across the EU they should have a CE mark and it should be possible to chase down who approved the manufacturing process and find a list of contents.  It might be some comfort to be able to confirm that they are harmless woo-woo rather than actively dangerous.

[havregryn]

They seem to be something similar to those cheap multivitamin tabs you can buy in any supermarket. They taste similar too. They however cost 100€ per month (of course, you must take a subscription that you can probably never get out of).
There was a study done in Norway, the products do seem harmless (but I would still not feed them to the kids) outside of their ridiculous price but it is the outrageous pushing that is really disturbing me. Handwritten letters, offering money to an 8 year old to drink it, I mean, WHOA!??

They also taste disgusting, it does not surprise me at all that a child would not drink this without some serious coaxing. She keeps sending them, I drank it a few times because I am a total sucker for avoiding food waste, it has a really unpleasant taste and consistency. I guess that's why they need the cult like aspects, no one would buy this for its own merits.

It's essentially a ridiculously overpriced version of this weird drink from my childhood  https://www.cedevita.com/en
So I don't think it is dangerous per se, but it most certainly doesn't cure every illness known to man as MIL seems to believe.

Everyone drank this when I was a kid, even if it didn't taste all that good, it was cheap, it was supposedly healthy, it's fairly popular in the Balkans. But this is a "regular" retail product, you buy it in a supermarket.

To be honest, what I didn't mention but could be important is that some cracks appeared also when they adamantly refused to get themselves vaccinated against covid, which effectively made it impossible for them to come and visit us or travel with us.
Needless to say, she was gonna detox us from the vaccine with that powder too.

I am really very deeply bothered by this because I come from a family where everyone hates everyone and I really wanted something better for my kids. And this is what we are coming to. My mother was emotionally abusive my whole life but it appears that becoming old is actually helping her figure shit out. She is becoming less all about herself and started taking more of an active interest in other people. But there many bridges have been burned ages ago and there is no common language (literally speaking) between her and my kids. Meanwhile, paternal grandparents, who were supposed to be the ones kids would be more close to, are completely losing it to cults and conspiracy theories. It makes me want to scream and cry.

[chemistk]

So sorry to hear this, your title is definitely not doing the situation justice. As you clearly put it, it is a cult that they're part of, through-and-through.

Do you suspect that those above her in the cult/MLM are actively taking advantage of her because of the perception of wealth? It's possible she's being led to believe through emotional manipulation that she needs to move as much of this product as possible (funneling more money up the chain).

Unfortunately, this is a situation where reason is not going to win until it comes from her own perception of the cult and where it's leading her. The best and frankly only thing you can do is to hold the line you've been holding and 1) establish that you will not be discussing the product further, 2) change the topic of conversation whenever possible to a neutral communal topic, and 3) reinforce the fact that you won't discuss it by ending any conversation where it comes up.

You very well might be putting a pause on your relationship with them for some time, but for the sake of your family you can't allow them to try and wrest influence over you through the same tactics that are being used on them.

More unfortunately, as adults age, the ability to critically evaluate claims/facts/stories and determine whether they hold merit gradually diminishes. Older adults are more susceptible to falling for misinformation, especially misinformation that looks like it could be true on the surface and is reinforced through emotional manipulation. It gets increasingly difficult to pull someone like that back into 'reality', and sometimes it indeed means permanently damaging (or even destroying) the relationship.

They (the one being manipulated) have to be the ones to see that maybe what they have been led to believe could be causing harm to their relationships and they have to be the ones to reach out and seek amends. You can only set the boundaries, enforce the boundaries, and be ready to accept them if or when the time comes.

[havregryn]

More unfortunately, as adults age, the ability to critically evaluate claims/facts/stories and determine whether they hold merit gradually diminishes. Older adults are more susceptible to falling for misinformation, especially misinformation that looks like it could be true on the surface and is reinforced through emotional manipulation. It gets increasingly difficult to pull someone like that back into 'reality', and sometimes it indeed means permanently damaging (or even destroying) the relationship.

They (the one being manipulated) have to be the ones to see that maybe what they have been led to believe could be causing harm to their relationships and they have to be the ones to reach out and seek amends. You can only set the boundaries, enforce the boundaries, and be ready to accept them if or when the time comes.

This is what I am most scared of. MIL is in her mid 60s, she has 20+ years of life expectancy in front of her, and it appears that she will, instead of spending time with her grandkids, dedicate it to growing increasingly crazy about all this alternative stuff she is into.
I want to believe that she would stop before actively squandering everything her husband has worked for all his life.
But seeing how this has escalated, I have my doubts.

I mean, handwritten letters about this powder added to Christmas presents and stuff like that, to me that's just insane.

As said, she's always been into that kind of stuff, but the intensity has definitely picked up.
I think it may be related to the fact that there is a specific person being her "best friend" and constantly egging her on. But I did some research into that person and she seems to be maybe just a step above in the MLM, not really someone who is genuinely making money on it.

From the overall context I am fairly certain this is still more about "privileged knowledge" than it is about money, it's more about being able to treat what conventional medicine can't/won't than it is about a get rich quick scheme.
They live in Sweden and Sweden is no joke, everyone in this chain has to keep a very detailed accounting of their "business"  so I think it must be obvious to her that all that is costing her more than she "earns". It's hard to say what kind of commitments she's making but she must be buying a lot of that product because I definitely see a lot of it stashed all over the place when we are there.

There was a period when she was aggresively trying to guilt us into buying this stuff because "we could afford it" so I told her we would gladly give her money if she needed it (Swedish people do have a weird obsession with keeping their finances separate (which in this case is possibly a blessing), so it is theoretically indeed so that it is just the FIL and then us who are the "wealthy" people here while she is just an entrepreneur trying to "make it")

I mean, I have no real insight into their finances, but from the fact they're boomers with two houses and a boat and FIL seems to be actively interested in stocks and investments I'm pretty sure they are doing just fine and will keep doing so unless she signs it all over to some cult. Which is no longer a ludicrous thought, hence my horror.

I'm glad to be reinforced in my belief that it is the right thing to do to absolutely refuse to engage (because my husband seems to think that in a worst case scenario, we could just accept to pay 100€ per month for her powders and then trash them as they come or donate them away). But I refuse to do so because I do not want to encourage this.

Also it could be worth mentioning that these powders seem to be something she's been playing with for at least 9 years now but only got really crazy lately, because I am under the impression that this is the same product that she gave me shortly after we had our first son. She showed up with these two little boxes of vitamin powder, said they were really good for me, given that I was post-partum and breastfeeding and left an invoice for my husband of about 120€ for them. I was like "huh??" but he said to just let it be, but then I drank some of it and had an immediate reaction where my heart started pounding uncontrollably and I felt my skin was burning. I was scared out of my mind (I was alone at home with an infant).
Turns out it was a niacin flush and she insisted it was actually "good for me because the body was getting rid of toxins" . I could have fuckin passed out on top of an infant. Anyway, we threw away the stuff and it was the last we heard of it until 2 years ago when the whole thing resurfaced and now she wants us to feed it to our toddler.

I really believe she means well. But this is really going crazy.

[cool7hand]

You might consider why you are struggling with establishing a boundary here.

[chemistk]

I think the wildcard may be the cultural aspect of it that we in the US all but forget even exists. Is the need for her to be able to be better than modern medicine rooted in a cultural fear of modern medicine or is that need stemming from something else?

It seems like she's coming from a good place in this - a desire to see her family happy and healthy. Does she supplement (no pun intended) that desire with genuine conversation, love and affection toward her family, participation in family events, and an overall matronly presence to the family? Or is she more just obsessed with everyone taking and talking about these supplements?

If it seems like her primary objective in life is just to genuinely care about the family and through these supplements and spurred by Covid, she's become a little zealous about it, I think there's probably a middle ground you can reach to demonstrate that you're just as invested in the health and safety of your family even if it means that you aren't taking her product.

But if taking the supplements or sidestepping the issue doesn't get her to stop pushing the product, the underlying intent is probably and unfortunately more selfishly motivated - trying to exert a sense of control over her circle by demonstrating that she's been right all along.

A side question but also relevant - does she have other outlets (hobbies, clubs, work, etc.) or is this her main gig?

[Sibley]

You may want to limit, or eliminate, her unsupervised access to the kids. You've said no to this powder, and it sounds like she's gone off the deep end sufficiently to try to sneak it past you. I'm unclear how much you see her in person, but it's something you should consider.

Realistically, her intentions may be coming from a good place but intentions only matter so far. She's harassing you with this powder. It's ok to set a hard boundary. It's ok to suggest to her and her husband that she gets a medical checkup, and a mental health evaluation. It's ok to reduce contact. It's ok to refuse packages from her. There's a huge variation of how you can respond to her, but ultimately you have to put your children above her. She is an adult. They are children. If she doesn't like the result, then she can change her behavior.

[Hula Hoop]

I come from a family in which I've had to set a lot of boundaries and temper expectations a lot.  Unfortunately, your dream of the Swedish side of your family being the more 'normal' grandparents may be misplaced.  You may need to set up strong boundaries with MIL, just as you have with your own family of origin,  as it sounds like she's gone off the deep end. She's an adult who has decided to believe these things and there's probably not much you can do to dissuade her so you need to protect yourself and your kids and husband both mentally, healthwise and financially.

Is your FIL similar?  Can your husband work with his father to limit her access to bank accounts so that she doesn't spend all their money on the MLM?

I have an antivax Qanon adjacent family member and I limit interactions with her and avoid any discussions which aren't things like food, weather etc.  For myself, mentally, I try to remember that she's an adult and it's extremely unlikely that she will be convinced by me or any other family member to change her views. So I keep interactions limited, keep discussions to safe topics like food, the weather and some of her other interests.  She sometimes tries to bring up the Q adjacent stuff and I just say something like "we have agreed not to discuss that.  This pie is delicious.  What's the recipe?"  Most importantly, I try to limit the mental space that this takes up.  It's upsetting for several reasons but I try not to be upset by it for my own mental health.

[havregryn]

Well, I really envy all my friends and colleagues who have parents they can ship off the kids to in the summer. This is something that is very common in my home country and it creates lasting bonds and gives kids amazing memories. We have the money to just send kids to 2 months worth of summer camps instead but that's not the point. I really wanted something like this for them, but I guess not. Ironically enough I think for kids cca 10-12 my mother might be up for it, she does not speak any of the languages my kids speak so it is unlikely she would be able to dole out her verbal abuse plus I really think she is motivated to be a grandparent in a way she never cared to parent. 

I think that MILs problem is that she was a housewife in a culture where that is rare and frowned upon so she started this "career" and then started hanging out with a bunch of these alternative loons. Her husband and sons wanted to be supportive so they didn't nip it in the bud and here we are now.
But it's really the sudden escalation that really bothers me. It just feels so wrong. 

She often shared her dubious health advice with us, sold us supplements, this, that, but none of it had the creepy, pestering feel that this drink comes with.
Maybe I am more sensitive because she is going after my kids and not only going after them, but she is constantly implying that there is a) something terribly wrong with our eldest and that b) we are not willing to help him with the magic drink.It is incredibly offensive.
That kid is gonna be 9, he has a life of his own, he will agree to drink this for 150€ a year. But I mean, just the whole idea, WHO COMES UP WITH THAT!?

[Sandi_k]

I would ask your DH to take his dad aside, somewhere private, and share his concerns.

IMO, you need to NOT be the communicator in this situation. It won't end well.

[SunnyDays]

Perhaps your MIL feels a need to be important, hence the "I know better than doctors" attitude.  Does she have any other legitimate skills or knowledge that she could be consulted on by family that might fill that need?  As one gets older, the experience of loss around one's capacities is common, and maybe she is obsessing about this one thing to compensate.  It would be worth a try to seek out her advice about other things to both derail her obsession when talking with you and to make her feel that she has other value.

However, it's really your husband's job to protect you from the worst aspects of his family.  Does he understand how distressing this is to you and does he have the personality to stand up to people, even (especially) his mom?  Some discussion with him about this might be in order.

Otherwise, my approach would be to directly confront her behaviours and beliefs around this product when she brings it up by asking questions that may make her think more deeply about the subject.  For example, "Do you think I don't have my children's best interests at heart?"  "Why are you so concerned about [older son]?"   "Don't you think I should take a qualified doctor's medical advice over someone who is selling powders?"  "What is your reason for continuing to bring this up when you know it upsets me?" etc.  If you question her in a calm, rational manner and appear interested in her answers, it might engage her intellectual side rather than her emotional/obsessive side.

Last resort might be to have your FIL notify her doctor about this unhealthy obsession in case there is something more serious going on with her.

[BlueHouse]

No matter how angry you get, please remember that she truly believes this stuff will help, and by pushing it on you and your kids, that proves that she genuinely cares.  So no matter how mad you get about, it sounds as if she's coming from a caring place. 

Other than that, if there are other people on the internet who used to be part of the program and who no longer are and share their story, maybe you can share that with the MIL? 

Or show her that the ingredients in her elixir are the same as the ingredients in a grocery store equivalent? 

[Villanelle]

In your shoes, I would discuss and agree upon boundaries with your DH, and then otherwise stay out of it and let him manage the relationship with his mom.  I wouldn't feel comfortable having her spend time alone with the kids as it seems that, at a minimum, she'd discuss the magical powders with them (in a way that may be quite hurtful to your potentially neuro-divergent son, and if not hurtful then at least manipulative, problematic, and not in line with your own beliefs).  And worse than that it seems probable she would give it to them anyway.

But again, agree with your DH on boundaries, and then any time MIL crosses them, you say, "I told you we are not discussing MagicPowder.  Is there anything else you want to talk about?"  If she continues, you say, "I've made my stance on MP conversations clear and since you can't respect that, I'm ending this call."  Or instead of ending the call, give the phone to your DH. 

If you both hold that line, she will likely accept it eventually, at least on the surface.  But there may be an extinction burst or tantrums in that process.

If your DH wants to offer alternative views or try to explain your stance or anything else, that's on him.  But it seems like you should remove yourself from the situation. 

[NorthernIkigai]

Yeah, in law problems are not your problems to solve. I would do as many here have suggested: Discuss this with your husband, and then make sure he is the main person communicating with her and explaining to her that y’all not interested in taking or even discussing these products. If she tries to argue, he can say “Look, havregryn and I make the decisions about our children [and he can add You and Dad had your own children to make decisions about; I’ve had to use this one at times]”.

Then make sure you have enough other things to talk about with her, so that she knows y’all are still interested in communicating with her, and always calmly refuse to engage in this topic. Unfortunately, you probably can’t send the kids there alone, since you can’t trust her not to push this on them when you’re not around. Maybe that will change with time.

[Hula Hoop]

Well, I really envy all my friends and colleagues who have parents they can ship off the kids to in the summer. This is something that is very common in my home country and it creates lasting bonds and gives kids amazing memories. We have the money to just send kids to 2 months worth of summer camps instead but that's not the point.

I've also felt this kind of envy. I have several foreign friends here who ship their kids off to stay with the grandparents for most of the summer and I know italians who fo this too.  It would have been great but it's just not going to happen because our parents just arent/weren't this type of people.  It sucks but so be it.  It annoys me when my friends take grandparent involvement for granted.

[darknight]

OP, is your MIL highly religious? There is a huge connection to religious extremism and MLM.

My wife and I stepped out of a high-demand, very controlling religion - both sets of grandparents are still very much a part of this religious group. We had to be very direct and draw hard boundaries. Basically we told them that we want a good family relationship and they can decide if they can control their impluse to convert our children. We said that our kids could come play, participate (watch) in cousins' religious ceremonies etc, but we won't tolerate "scripture time" or overt attempts to share religious information with our kids. I've watched my parents try to be extra "churchy" with my sibling's children and I won't tolerate it.

As difficult and painful as this could be, setting HARD LINE boundaries will work wonders for you. All parties are much happier now and tension is a lot lower now that we carved out our boundaries. If you understand that religion and MLM are very similar, you'll understand that "fixing" your MIL is not an option. You unfortunately will need to take a hard and fast stand

[havregryn]

However, it's really your husband's job to protect you from the worst aspects of his family.  Does he understand how distressing this is to you and does he have the personality to stand up to people, even (especially) his mom?  Some discussion with him about this might be in order.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a no and no. I don't think he really gets it that I find this emotionally hurtful and not just vaguely annoying (like he does) because for me it was really important to have a "better" family life for my children than I had growing up.
And he definitely does not have the personality to set any kind of boundaries. If it were up to him he'd buy it and trash it. Or, rather, to be honest, when we lived there she would just bring a bunch of stuff over and leave an invoice to be paid and he would just pay it because he didn't want to upset her. We live in a different country now (we're all in Europe though, so it's an easy back and forth, they used to visit us regularly and we travel there often too) so she can't just bring stuff over. His solution is to ignore it.

Well, the latest passive aggressive message said that she would never bring it up again, let's see if that works out. However I feel really uncomfortable just acting as if nothing happened. First, because we have no idea how much new crazy she might be brewing and not telling us and second, because we have the right to be legitimately offended by many of the things she said about our son and his needs for "treatment".

I really want to believe that she comes from a place of caring but it does feel like she is clearly choosing her loon friends over her son and his family. She's not religious (but religion is not really a thing where she is from), I actually think this whole "alternative" scene is their version of religion. 

My husband insists she's been like this his entire life and he doesn't seem to see the escalation I think is evident.
To me this is a whole new level of crazy. I remember when I had a blood clot in my brain in 2015 she was gonna treat me with horse doses of vitamin C and she tried to set me up with a "vitamin" regimen (in general, vitamins are the theme here, before it was essential oils) but when I said I would prefer not to, that was that. And this crazy drink powder, this is two years of constant badgering, mentioning it in Christmas cards, bad family news, throwing it into simple "how's the weather over there" exchanges, everywhere. Literally everywhere.

My husband is blissfully naive, he told her that we bought some other multivitamins for the kids, a kind that the kids like because it's gummies, because he thought this is really about her needing to know he is being supplemented, but of course that one is not the "real deal", we're possibly making it even worse with those because we're leading him away from the one and true drink.

[havregryn]

And yeah, some people asked - I don't think she does anything else. This is her "job" . And her passion. But one more thing that is giving me cult vibes is that she sent us an email a year ago that she was gonna retire but then didn't retire at all. My feeling is that this is somehow related to someone in her upline encouraging her to keep pushing. I am really uneasy about the whole thing, also for example when we visit them she has to "work" all the time. Almost every day she must go to the city and "work". One time they were not able to stop by and visit on their way to Spain because, and now I quote my FIL, it is an "agony" for her if she's away from her work for too long. There are some other things she offers, not just MLM, I think she does some kind of foot massages or something but I don't think she is really making any money with any of it. She probably spends more of FILs money buying these products for their own personal usage than she earns charging others for services.

I mean, some of the shit she says, gaaah. I remember how she once said that it's hard for them to spend time with our kids because kids are germ bags and every time they spend time with them they feel ill later (HOW ARE YOUR VITAMINS NOT FIXING THAT THEN!?). But OK, sure, legit concern, they're aging and kids indeed are germ bags. But here's where I am going with this - now, this was obviously pre-covid. Come Covid, an actually dangerous disease our kids could easily give them not knowing, and suddenly that is all a major conspiracy and we are insane for getting vaccinated and they are most definitely not interested in any kind of precaution. To me this all suggests that all that woo is far more important to her than their actual grandkids.

[NorthernIkigai]

Is your husband as upset with her for the things she said about your eldest as you are? I actually think you need to try to let whatever was said go, because it’s not getting unsaid and these kinds of people almost never apologise for stuff afterwards.

But I’m curious as how your husband seems so “la la la, we can just let her do her thing and try to navigate around it without upsetting anyone”, if what she said was really bad. Although he clearly seems to have learned this strategy from his dad. Too bad it’s not working at all, since it’s leaving his wife very upset!

You should ignore your MIL and how dysfunctional she is. Instead try to focus on getting your husband to get that he needs to “get it”. Naivety is not an option here.

[havregryn]

Maybe I'm just more easily offended than he is. Or he is also quite skilled at just sort of not actually paying attention to what she says. He admits to not actually reading 90% of the crazy emails she sent.
I don't know, maybe I am overreacting because I am so generally hurt by the loss of the dream of summers with loving grandparents for my kids.

[GreenSheep]

Maybe I'm just more easily offended than he is. Or he is also quite skilled at just sort of not actually paying attention to what she says. He admits to not actually reading 90% of the crazy emails she sent.
I don't know, maybe I am overreacting because I am so generally hurt by the loss of the dream of summers with loving grandparents for my kids.

There's a lot here, but if it helps to sit on this point for a moment... I never spent any time alone with any of my grandparents, and I still think I had an awesome childhood. None of my childhood friends spent more than a week alone with their grandparents, and they were all happy and well-adjusted. You seem like a great, involved, caring mother, and I assume their father is the same, so I think they'll be fine. :-)

[kina]

Your husband has been conditioned from birth that his mother's behavior is normal because that is all he experienced. It is not. I don't think you are wrong in thinking the behavior is escalating. From my non-medical armchair, I think she may be exhibiting early signs of dementia.

It's a period of time when vulnerable people can be financially taken advantage of. I hope your FIL is on the ball. I believe your concerns are valid.

[svosavvy]

I just wanted to say sorry you have to go through this.  It is indeed difficult.  I have a sis inlaw and her husband who are neck deep in that amway crap.  They would constantly send the trash to our kids for b'days and Christmas.  They would also make family members buy the amway stuff for their kids as they would not accept gifts that weren't amway.  We didn't address it at first, then it got worse as they would badger my brother inlaws teenage nephew to become an amway convert/pusher and peddle this stuff.  Eventually, a group effort of the siblings addressing the issue made it stop.

I think you are doing great staying strong and keep it up.  I remember we had to be on the lookout for having the wagons circled against us by more passive family members who they were manipulating.  I would really only add "journaling" or some type of fact documentation of the interactions can help for matter of fact conversations when they come up was helpful for us.  Unfortunately trying to reason with the unreasonable is difficult.  I like SunnyDays suggestion of respectfully informing the doctor so they are at least in the information loop.   

The stages we went through after the confrontation were 1. guilt shade thrown at us 2. silent treatment (shunning us) 3. eventual small amount of communication 4. being able to connect on things that didn't involve amway. (mostly child raising stuff)  My wife really did a fantastic job of communicating especially during the silent treatment years.  She would still routinely communicate positive statements of love and praise along with happy anecdotes of growing up together.  They went unanswered (but not unread) for a long time.

Best wishes, we are thinking kind thoughts for you

[SunnyDays]

I seems that you are caught in the middle, in terms of neither being able to ignore it, like your husband does, or come to terms that they won't ever have the kind of relationship with your kids that you want for them.  You are the one suffering the most.

I agree with GreenSheep, that grandparents can enhance the experience of childhood, but they are not mandatory for a good one.  It is more your dream that is the casualty here, rather than the kids themselves.  So, for you own sake, you have to choose either to let it all go and join your husband's camp, or to make a huge issue of it and try to force everyone to take it as seriously as you do.
Either choice is legitimate, because there's definitely something wrong here, but nowhere have you said that your main concern is your MIL's behaviour as it affects her.  You have said that she is "wrecking her relationship with her son and grandkids," but how?  It seems that your husband has just learned to turn a deaf ear to her and isn't actually suffering.  Do your kids complain that they have no relationship with her or that it has gotten worse?  Do they feel like they are suffering?  If not, then no one is really suffering except you.  So just be aware that making a big deal of it will almost certainly increase everyone's suffering and perhaps solve nothing at all.

If you can reframe the whole experience as "There's clearly something wrong with MIL and we should have compassion for that," rather than "She's not being the person I want her to be and is ruining my dreams for a happy family," you may be less upset about the matter.
It's great to have older people involved with kids, but they don't have to be blood relatives.  There may be people around that would love to "adopt a grandkid."  Some elder care facilities have such programs (Adopt a Grandparent), because there are lots of lonely folks who would enjoy having little(er) ones around.  No, they can't babysit for weeks at a time, but that doesn't make the relationship any less valuable.

When you can't change a situation, you have to either absent yourself from it entirely or find a way to make it more palatable.  That said, don't put the kids in a position of possible harm by allowing unsupervised visits with her.  But can she come over for supper, can you all go out as extended family?  Of course, just make it clear that any talk about the powder is unacceptable.  If she can't abide by that, then "Grandma isn't well enough to see us right now" will likely be accepted by the kids.  Just minimize the effects on everyone else and let MIL deal with the results of her own behaviour.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Very much agree with @SunnyDays here. This is a real issue, & I'd be driven nuts by it, but I also think you have to decide what your approach should be, and if you can let some of it go.

[TheWryLady]

This seems off to me. Don't most MLM people make money by recruiting more than actually selling products, and she's been involved with same one for years, but she's still all about selling? Seems like MLM'ers either get good at recruiting, or lose money if they concentrate on selling product. Eventually most people realize that selling doesn't work and they quit within 1 year.

It sounds more like an online love scam, where the victim so desperately wants the attention, love, romance, relationship, and/or friendship that they allow themselves to be manipulated/brainwashed/used by some scammer. They will not listen to reason or logic from friends or family. They will spend all of their money on whatever this scammer directs them-and that scammer is profiting somehow off the victim.

I think I might try warning your husband about this possibility (untoward financial motives). He could privately ask to review MIL's finances, as a concerned son.

I do think you might try to view continued MLM conversation instigated by her as a symptom of an illness, and pity her more than feel hurt or annoyed. But I wouldn't leave kids (or pets honestly) alone with her. Accidental overdose of vitamins happens.

[havregryn]

Thanks everyone, sorry for a late update, life got busy for a while.

So, as she said in her last passive-aggressive message, she did indeed stop talking about her magic powder, but of course, that means she mostly stopped talking to us all together. I am just really, really hurt by all this, mostly on behalf of my kids, but well, what can I do, nothing. Unfortunately, the void left by her not sending her emails is now being filled by my FIL and BIL going on their own crazy rants. FIL about climate change denial and BIL on the need to buy silver and the impending financial system collapse. My husband thinks this is all just sort of silly, I think that his parents need a stern talking to about priorities in life and his brother needs a neurological and psychiatric assessment (because he's a 42 year old man who's gone really crazy real fast without an obvious trigger or any real antecedents). But not my fight to fight. As many of you have kindly said, my kids will survive without having the happy loving extended family I wanted for them and the experience of being able to go away on their own can be replicated with camps and such.

There is some irony to this and the fact that on the other hand, my mother, who was emotionally abusive my whole life and is just a voice from an occasional phone call to my kids, has been showing very clear signs of personal growth in her retirement and has become a lot more agreeable and easier to deal with. I am approaching the point where I don't think it's out of the question that tween aged kids could go visit her once my sister moves back into the same property (my mother lives in a suite on the property where my sister's family is building their future house).
Of course, my mother is dying for the opportunity to spend time with her grandkids and she seems to be making extraordinary steps to make that happen. And, as said, I think she is actually getting there.
What a sad contrast this whole thing is.
My husband's parents are living the boomer dream and they're wasting their retirement peddling this bullshit. My mother (my father is deceased since 2012) has had what was in essence a quite difficult life and she is discovering in her late 60s that personal growth is possible and desirable and is doing what she can to establish some connection to her grandkids.

I am glad to hear that you don't think I am crazy and that this whole thing is not somehow "normal" with me being too sensitive.

[chemistk]

I think you're saving yourself a lot of pain and frustration by choosing to avoid your in-laws. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I would encourage you to make sure you aren't leaving your husband out of this - he needs to step in and take much of the responsibility for communicating your collective concerns to them. It's not out of the question that his family would deign to pit you two against each other in a bid to get their way. Their backs are increasingly against the wall.

That's a wonderful thing to hear about your mother. My wife's grandmother had a similar trajectory - she found, as she got older, that her stubbornness and myopic views were preventing her from maintaining a connection with her family which, as her acquaintances have passed away around her, is the only thing she has left.

I would encourage you to ease into a relationship with your mother. Establish boundaries, set expectations, start small and work your way up to your desired goal of having the kids spend 1:1 time with her.

[Hula Hoop]

I would encourage you to ease into a relationship with your mother. Establish boundaries, set expectations, start small and work your way up to your desired goal of having the kids spend 1:1 time with her.

I agree. Go on an exploratory visit with your kids and spend time with your mother and the kids together to see how she acts around them.  Then, if you feel that she's acting well around them, just go out for 45 minutes or so to see how it goes and test the waters.  If that goes ok then maybe a bit more time.  But make sure that you're always hovering around to swoop in if anything crazy/abusive happens.  Unfortunately, IMO while people can change, the change is not normally that radical so if there's a history of abuse you probably shouldn't trust your kids around her for extended one on one time.

What a shame about your inlaws. But that's family for you.  Same kinds of things in my family which means that our kids don't really have a relationship with their remaining grandparents. Sometimes I feel sad as I see the wonderful relationships that some of my friends' kids have with their grandparents but, unfortunately, you can't pick your family and that's just how things are.  I feel very lucky to have a functional and healthy nuclear family with my husband and kids.

[Cassie]

Growing up I had awesome grandparents and my parents were wonderful grandparents. However, if I had grandchildren a 2 week visit would be sufficient. I have a life and wouldn’t want to put it on hold for a entire summer. My parents wouldn’t have either. That’s a unrealistic expectation.  In regard to the MLM thing that’s a shame that your mil is putting that ahead of her family. I find that bizarre.

[srrb]

Another thumbs-up for SunnyDay's advice. It works. You can only change your response and control your own behaviour, so let it go and set boundaries. Best role-modeling for your kids, IMO.

[Ecky]

There is some irony to this and the fact that on the other hand, my mother, who was emotionally abusive my whole life and is just a voice from an occasional phone call to my kids, has been showing very clear signs of personal growth in her retirement and has become a lot more agreeable and easier to deal with. I am approaching the point where I don't think it's out of the question that tween aged kids could go visit her once my sister moves back into the same property (my mother lives in a suite on the property where my sister's family is building their future house).
Of course, my mother is dying for the opportunity to spend time with her grandkids and she seems to be making extraordinary steps to make that happen. And, as said, I think she is actually getting there.
What a sad contrast this whole thing is.
My husband's parents are living the boomer dream and they're wasting their retirement peddling this bullshit. My mother (my father is deceased since 2012) has had what was in essence a quite difficult life and she is discovering in her late 60s that personal growth is possible and desirable and is doing what she can to establish some connection to her grandkids.

I am glad to hear that you don't think I am crazy and that this whole thing is not somehow "normal" with me being too sensitive.

Ease back into it. I thought the same, and got burned pretty badly.

[iris lily]

Maybe I'm just more easily offended than he is. Or he is also quite skilled at just sort of not actually paying attention to what she says. He admits to not actually reading 90% of the crazy emails she sent.
I don't know, maybe I am overreacting because I am so generally hurt by the loss of the dream of summers with loving grandparents for my kids.

You can feel your feelings and be as hurt as you like, but it is your actions that count and are what you can control.

Do not put your children in a position of having to stave off crazy granny and her Magic Powder. To that end, your husband needs to continue to protect his children from his mother.

The rest of it…let it go. Do not look for undercurrent of meaning in your MIL’s communications. Take her words at face value, and if she no longer brings up Magic Powder, consider that a win. If you expect to fall into each other’s arms and experience meaningful apologies to come to a mutual understanding,  please become realistic immediately. That ain’t gonna happen.

[kei te pai]

Who else is in both you and your husbands extended families? Are there aunts, uncles, cousins, old family friends?Could you actively build some wider family relationships for your children that will not be so difficult?
There are no perfect families. The hopes for your children are your hopes, not theirs. They have different lives from both you and your husbands childhoods. Try to tune your attention to what they seek, and respond to that.

[havregryn]

I have one sister, my husband has one brother.

My sister has two kids who are a little bit younger than mine and is living in a rural area of a poor Eastern European country, with very limited ability to travel (financial or otherwise). I generally offer to pay for any travel she does decide to do so we could meet up (we avoid going there because my mother used to be very difficult)  but her husband is reluctant to travel (it's just the way of life for them, he can't speak any foreign languages, he's never travelled anywhere, the thought stresses him out). The best we can do is that they drive up to southern Austria and we meet there (we travel to Austria more often as I used to live there and have friends, my kids are also in a German speaking school so trips to Austria are useful and convenient for us). We've done that once or twice, we will do it again, that's actually how I last saw my mother and my sister in 2019 before the c-word. I am hoping that with time and as our kids get older there will be more of a relationship there but for now, the age range doesn't yet work for independent socializing (my kids are 3-6-9, hers 2-4).

My husband's brother has zero interest in any kind of interaction with our kids. Disliking kids is a part of the vibe he thinks is cool, I think it's just ridiculously immature. He's also been going really insane on the whole conspiracy theory front. I think I talked about him elsewhere. My husband's family is from Sweden, so when covid initially started, my BIL and his Chinese girlfriend initially went super crazy in the sense that they were convinced Sweden was gonna kill off its entire population by not locking down and they refused to leave their apartment for months.  So imagine my surprise when the vaccine came out and they suddenly started bombarding us with the exact freakin 'opposite madness, constantly sending us questionable American sources on how the whole thing is one major scam and how NOW we would all be killed by the vaccine. I LEGIT think his brother needs a medical exam. He is a man in his 40s with a MSc in computer science, I refuse to believe that he would be able to do this flip in the type of crazy if he was not suffering from some kind of delusion, but I may just be naive, so many people have been so cray cray lately. But people were either irrationally afraid of covid or irrationally afraid of the vaccine, he's the only person I know who had no problem covering both.
The sad part is my oldest really WANTS TO spend time with his grandpa and his uncle (grandma has indeed burned many bridges with the magic powder). He keeps saying how he'd love to work with grandpa on a woodworking project and how grandpa is really cool because he owns a boat.
They actually sent us an email not so long ago (but before the magic powder escalation) that they're sad and upset they don't get to hang out with the kids because we moved abroad. So they say that but everything they do is the exact opposite. They used to travel with us because they love travelling so they'd meet up with us when we went somewhere. However, that option disappeared when they refused to get themselves vaccinated for covid (and any country we would travel to with small kids has or at least has had the vaxx as an entry requirement). So blah blah, they love the grandkids, they miss them, but they sure as hell love their (imaginary) wacko friends even more (I say imaginary as I think this is all just reading crazy shit online, I haven't noticed any real people feeding them this, I remember MIL complaining about having to keep quiet about her vaccine concerns among friends (but sadly not in front of us, eh).

I know at the end of the day the kids will be fine and there is nothing I can do about any of this, but I feel the need to vent, because I am really disappointed by how all this turned out. I really expected that there would be more of a relationship with grandparents for my kids, and I guess I am a little bit triggered by the fact that my MIL very often implies it's our fault (for moving) that there is none......riiight.

[NorthernIkigai]

I understand that there’s lots of batshit crazy going on here, but on a practical note: you could travel somewhere together this summer, right (if you wanted to)? Hasn’t the Schengen zone dropped the vaccine/test requirements as long as you live and stay within it?

[Villanelle]

I'm just going to throw this out there to see if it resonates.  It sounds like you are more upset over the relationships not being what you imagined, than you are the magic powder stuff.  Not that you aren't upset about both, and not that it isn't perfectly understandable to be disappointed that the relationships didn't turn out to be what you'd thought.  But it seems like the powder is the focus of some feelings that have a lot to do with other things.

And my thought on that is that the grandparents aren't doing anything wrong by not wanting to spend summers with the grandkids, or to do everything required to spend summers or other time with the grandkids.  Again, I understand the disappointment, but I don't think it is entirely fair to hold it against them that their ideas of the relationships and priorities are different than yours. 

I don't have children.  My parents are very disappointed they have no grandkids, so they did want them.  But they also made it clear that they raised their children and would not be the default childcare or sick-day nurses or summer camp, or anything like that.  And they had every right to set that boundary.  They even would have had every right to shift to that boundary over time.  Again, it's not fair to hold your expectations against someone else. 

So try to separate that out, as best you can, from what you are feeling. 

[havregryn]

I think maybe you are taking the summer thing too literally. My husband and I are ridiculously high earners for European standards, we don't *need* grandparents or aunts and uncles to take care of our kids. If this was about dumping our kids on someone, we could solve that much more easily with  $$.  To me this is really about the relationship or lack thereof (and summers are kinda representative because we don't live in the same country so my kids can't really see their grandparents when they have school).

I don't remember my paternal grandparents because everyone in that line had kids too late (they died in their 80s but I was 6) but I remember that when my maternal grandmother died the main feeling in the family was that of relief. And that grandmother lived with us, so yeah, to me it's very clear that this is not about time spent or free childcare.

I remember being completely puzzled and utterly unable to react when I would see friends grieve the death of someone in their family. My father died and to me it was ultimately a "meh" kind of feeling, there was just never ANY kind of positive emotion in my family to go around.

At the same time I am from a culture where family is considered super important and most of my friends are close to their grandparents, cousins, whatnot. I have no one. I barely have a relationship with my most immediate family.
I still remember having these conversations with my husband early on in our relationship and him always saying stuff like that his family loves to have me and our kids would have a loving family there.

And LOOK what they have now. I am sure the grandparents love them in their own messed up ways but when all our exchanges are about magic powder and covid denialism, it's really hard to feel that this is some kind of an improvement on my "don't care" kind of family.

[Villanelle]

I think maybe you are taking the summer thing too literally. My husband and I are ridiculously high earners for European standards, we don't *need* grandparents or aunts and uncles to take care of our kids. If this was about dumping our kids on someone, we could solve that much more easily with  $$.  To me this is really about the relationship or lack thereof (and summers are kinda representative because we don't live in the same country so my kids can't really see their grandparents when they have school).

I don't remember my paternal grandparents because everyone in that line had kids too late (they died in their 80s but I was 6) but I remember that when my maternal grandmother died the main feeling in the family was that of relief. And that grandmother lived with us, so yeah, to me it's very clear that this is not about time spent or free childcare.

I remember being completely puzzled and utterly unable to react when I would see friends grieve the death of someone in their family. My father died and to me it was ultimately a "meh" kind of feeling, there was just never ANY kind of positive emotion in my family to go around.

At the same time I am from a culture where family is considered super important and most of my friends are close to their grandparents, cousins, whatnot. I have no one. I barely have a relationship with my most immediate family.
I still remember having these conversations with my husband early on in our relationship and him always saying stuff like that his family loves to have me and our kids would have a loving family there.

And LOOK what they have now. I am sure the grandparents love them in their own messed up ways but when all our exchanges are about magic powder and covid denialism, it's really hard to feel that this is some kind of an improvement on my "don't care" kind of family.

No, I definitely wasn't under the impression it was about the money savings of having involved grandparents.  I understood it to be about wanting the relationships. 

But I still think you are disappointed because these people aren't living up to the dream you had for the grandparent-grandchild relationship, and I don't think that's fair.  It was your dream, not theirs. Being upset with them about that isn't healthy and won't be productive.  That was my point.

It does sound like your husband fed into the unrealistic expectations, and I'm sure that doesn't help.  Either his definitions of your kids having a loving family there differ from yours, or he was in denial, or his parents' views and lives changed.  Any of those are unfortunate.   

[Poundwise]

FWIW, I also grew up basically without grandparents (I met my grandmother twice) but had a happy childhood.  What helped was that I had godparents who were the sweetest old couple (they never had children and as a result adored them), and we saw them on our birthdays and holidays.  Surely if you wish to build a relationship with an older couple, you may find them if you and your kids volunteer with the elderly!

[jrhampt]

I hear you on the covid thing and the feeling that they chose conspiracy theories vs actual relationships.  It's very disappointing and hurtful.  Similar situation with my own parents, who live out of state in the south (not the MLM, but refusing to get vaccinated).  And bafflingly, they also groused about how the older people would probably be last in line to get the vaccine (????) and then refused to get it when they were eligible.  Travel restrictions in the northeast (and having older in-laws here that we were trying not to infect) meant that I didn't see them in 2020 and I realllllly wanted to see them as soon as the vaccine came out and was looking forward to spending the holidays together again in 2021.  Then when they refused to vaccinate...I imagine I feel something similar to what you're feeling.  They wouldn't even do it to see the grandkids (my sister's kids - I don't have any), and it blew my mind.  Then they got Delta and almost died and seriously debilitated themselves and still refused to get vaccinated, and now I am just kind of done with the relationship altogether.

[w@nker]

Mental illness is a horrible thing, particularly when affecting close family members. This was my mother, but with religion.  It took a psychotic break and institutionalization to end her obsession and constant solicitations and hellfire warnings.  Now she is a zombified shell of her former self…but at least the craziness has stopped.